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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2004Are BrE Phone Terms Turning AmE?
I just phoned a hospital in England and was told by a recorded voice that the extension I was trying to reach was "busy" -- which surprised me because I thought the usual BrE term was "engaged." The voice had a pleasant classless, regionless BrE accent. As far as I could tell, it was not computer-generated, but belonged to real person, so I don't think this was a case of a British version of American software. Was this an unusual usage or has the BrE phone terminology changed? Is it changing? Does anyone care? copeSP@AMZAPca.inter.net spake thus: > I just phoned a hospital in England and was told by a recorded voice > that the extension I was trying to reach was "busy" -- which surprised [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Was this an unusual usage or has the BrE phone terminology changed? Is > it changing? Does anyone care? Technology often uses terms from US English. "busy" is perfectly well understood. I wouldn't be surprised if the formal term for the beep-beep which used to be called the "engaged tone" is now the "busy signal".  SignatureDavid ===== >Was this an unusual usage or has the BrE phone terminology changed? Is >it changing? Does anyone care? Prepare to be assimilated. Resistance is futile. -- Robert In alt.usage.english Robert Stevahn <rstevahn@n05pam.pobox.com> wrote: >>Was this an unusual usage or has the BrE phone terminology changed? Is >>it changing? Does anyone care? > Prepare to be assimilated. Resistance is futile. The twist of the knife is that all phones will eventually be answered in India, and they will speak AmE because of the larger market. On 02 Dec 2003, wrote > In alt.usage.english Robert Stevahn <rstevahn@n05pam.pobox.com> > wrote: >>> Was this an unusual usage or has the BrE phone terminology >>> changed? Is it changing? Does anyone care? >> Prepare to be assimilated. Resistance is futile. > The twist of the knife is that all phones will eventually be > answered in India, and they will speak AmE because of the larger > market. I'm hoping they'll speak Indian English, and we'll all switch to that. ("I am pleased to be telling you in response to your doubt that the correct number you wish to dial is....") SignatureCheers, Harvey Ottawa/Toronto/Edmonton for 30 years; Southern England for the past 21 years. (for e-mail, change harvey to whhvs) >In alt.usage.english Robert Stevahn <rstevahn@n05pam.pobox.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >The twist of the knife is that all phones will eventually be answered >in India, and they will speak AmE because of the larger market. What miffs me is the number of texts I see produced in English in EU countries for EU consumption yet with American spelling. -- Ross Howard > >In alt.usage.english Robert Stevahn <rstevahn@n05pam.pobox.com> wrote: > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > What miffs me is the number of texts I see produced in English in EU > countries for EU consumption yet with American spelling. I guess that could be because the EU wants to trade with the rest of the world and not just with itself... >> >In alt.usage.english Robert Stevahn <rstevahn@n05pam.pobox.com> wrote: >> > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >I guess that could be because the EU wants to trade with the rest of the >world and not just with itself... Read the words between "countries" and "yet" again. I'm talking about reams of reports addressed to Eurocrats that talk about "business centers" and "inner-city neighborhoods". -- Ross Howard > >> What miffs me is the number of texts I see produced in English in EU > >> countries for EU consumption yet with American spelling. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > reams of reports addressed to Eurocrats that talk about "business > centers" and "inner-city neighborhoods". Yeah, well. Anyone who offers English education in a foreign country has to decide whether to offer British style, American style, or some combination. You are miffed because there are a lot of countries that have taught American English, even though you happen to be in a loose political federation with some of them. The nerve of those folks, huh? They should have known you'd be upset and instituted British English simply to make you happy? You're not mixing up the EU with the British Empire, are you? Heck, I have edited proposals and reports that were submitted to the EU and I followed American standards because -- surprise -- that's what I know the best. I can't even think of an analogy to your complaint. Something like people in Detroit being annoyed that anyone in the US has the nerve to buy German and Japanese cars. But that one at least has some rational economic justification, besides just wounded pride. I wonder what the EU itself has said about British vs. American styles, somewhere in its billions of sheets of paper. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux >Yeah, well. Anyone who offers English education in a foreign country has >to decide whether to offer British style, American style, or some [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >buy German and Japanese cars. But that one at least has some rational >economic justification, besides just wounded pride. Are reports to NAFTA submitted in BrE? Mike SignatureM.J.Powell > >I can't even think of an analogy to your complaint. Something like > >people in Detroit being annoyed that anyone in the US has the nerve to > >buy German and Japanese cars. But that one at least has some rational > >economic justification, besides just wounded pride. > > Are reports to NAFTA submitted in BrE? Isn't that a treaty (Canada, US, Mexico), not an agency or organization? I could sit here and speculate how an agency that may or may not exist, would or would not handle documents. Perhaps you could elaborate your point, first. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux >> >I can't even think of an analogy to your complaint. Something like >> >people in Detroit being annoyed that anyone in the US has the nerve to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Isn't that a treaty (Canada, US, Mexico), not an agency or organization? I assume that there is an organisation behind the letters to monitor, deal with complaints etc. Mike SignatureM.J.Powell >>> >I can't even think of an analogy to your complaint. Something like >>> >people in Detroit being annoyed that anyone in the US has the nerve to [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >I assume that there is an organisation behind the letters to monitor, >deal with complaints etc. "Dispute Settlement" is the responsibility of the NAFTA Secretariat. http://www.nafta-sec-alena.org/ This has the appearance of a single organisation. In reality the work is performed by its three "National Sections". Other bodies, such as the NAFTA Free-Trade Commission (comprised of the Trade Ministers of the Parties), bi-national review panels, scientific review boards, and various committees, are established on ad hoc basis. There is nothing like the central bureaucracy of the EU (yet). SignaturePeter Duncanson UK (posting from a.e.u) > comprised of the Nitpick: Composed of or comprising -YJ >> comprised of the > >Nitpick: Composed of or comprising It's always good to be rid of a nit. I think the article below might permit my usage "comprised of". However, I have only just woken up (very late) with only a small number of brain cells functioning as yet, so I might be mistaken. :-) <quote> The New Oxford Dictionary of English database (1) 1 According to traditional usage, comprise means 'consist of', as in the country comprises twenty states, and should not be used to mean 'constitute or make up (a whole)', as in this single breed comprises 50 per cent of the Swiss cattle population. But confusion has arisen because of uses in the passive, which have been formed by analogy with words like compose: when comprise is used in the active (as in the country comprises twenty states) it is, oddly, more or less synonymous with the passive use of the second sense (as in the country is comprised of twenty states). Such passive uses of comprise are common and are fast becoming part of standard English. Other erroneous forms, such as the property comprises of bedroom, bathroom, and kitchen, should not be used in standard English. </quote> SignaturePeter Duncanson UK (posting from a.e.u) > >> comprised of the > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > However, I have only just woken up (very late) with only a small number of > brain cells functioning as yet, so I might be mistaken. :-) As noted in the "aeu" thread I was having a really bad hair night last night (and note that I have very little hair to start with!). Just think of it as Jack barfing on his keyboard. Hope there was no ill feeling. -YJ >> >> comprised of the >> > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >Just think of it as Jack barfing on his keyboard. Hope there was no >ill feeling. Absolutely no ill feeling. I hope you are back to normal today. SignaturePeter Duncanson UK (posting from a.e.u) > >> >> comprised of the > >> > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Absolutely no ill feeling. > I hope you are back to normal today. And your keyboard also. SignatureBob Lieblich A keyboard named Also? > > >> >> comprised of the > > >> > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > And your keyboard also. No. Also sprach Zarathrustra but not my keyboard. Thanks for the good wishes, folks. I don't think you want me "back to normal," but rather more polite! And we washed the keyboard out with a good barf-dissolving solvent so it's as good a new. I'll try to be a better guest here. -Yukon Jack > Thanks for the good wishes, folks. I don't think you want me "back to > normal," but rather more polite! And we washed the keyboard out with a > good barf-dissolving solvent so it's as good a new. Wish I'd had some of that. I spilled beer on mine 2 days ago and ended up having to buy a new keyboard. SignatureRob Bannister >> Thanks for the good wishes, folks. I don't think you want me "back to >> normal," but rather more polite! And we washed the keyboard out with a >> good barf-dissolving solvent so it's as good a new. > >Wish I'd had some of that. I spilled beer on mine 2 days ago and ended >up having to buy a new keyboard. I treat posting like driving: - don't drink before or during - turn motor and PC off before drinking - hide the keys or forget the password - whichever is appropriate. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England >>>Thanks for the good wishes, folks. I don't think you want me "back to >>>normal," but rather more polite! And we washed the keyboard out with a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I treat posting like driving: > - don't drink before or during As the drunk driver said: I've never done it before. It was because it was windy and the curtain kept blowing over and I went to grab it and... Oh, sorry, you said 'posting', not 'spilling beer on keyboard' - I was playing a game, not posting. I read and write here early in the morning. SignatureRob Bannister >>>>Thanks for the good wishes, folks. I don't think you want me "back to >>>>normal," but rather more polite! And we washed the keyboard out with a [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >Oh, sorry, you said 'posting', not 'spilling beer on keyboard' - I was >playing a game, not posting. I read and write here early in the morning. Me, too. It's 8 minutes past midnight and all's well. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England > Nitpick: Composed of or comprising I am sorry to report (because it irks me, too) that this battle is already lost. SignatureWes Groleau Can we afford to be relevant? http://www.cetesol.org/stevick.html >> >> What miffs me is the number of texts I see produced in English in EU >> >> countries for EU consumption yet with American spelling. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >You're not mixing up the EU with the British Empire, are you? >Heck, I have edited proposals and reports that were submitted to the EU >and I followed American standards because -- surprise -- that's what I >know the best. Don't you write for your audience? "American standards" (by which I assume you mean US vocabulary and spelling) may prevail in most parts of the world, but they are not the European standards. The official language of the EU is not -- surprise -- the version taught by Wall Street for TOEFL tests but rather the English that's the mother tongue of sixty-odd million Europeans in two EU Member States. >I can't even think of an analogy to your complaint. Something like >people in Detroit being annoyed that anyone in the US has the nerve to >buy German and Japanese cars. But that one at least has some rational >economic justification, besides just wounded pride. It'd be more like people in the US receiving NAFTA-related documents drafted in Mexico that talked about "car tyres, boots, bonnets, carburettors, windscreens and colour options" -- at least weird, probably irritating for many if repeated often enough and maybe even insulting for some, but not very professional in any case. >I wonder what the EU itself has said about British vs. American styles, >somewhere in its billions of sheets of paper. For logical-enough reasons, British/Irish English is the official version of English in the EU, just as French/Belgian (rather than Canadian or Haitian) French, and Spanish (rather than Mexican or Argentinian) Spanish are the official versions of those languages. Or do you really consider -- as you seem to with your bizarre "British Empire" and "wounded pride" taunts -- that the increasing use of American English within Europe is just the way the globalized cookie crumbles? Are you really suggesting that the two EU Member States who use other varieties of English -- and because of whose EU membership English is one of the official EU languages -- should just shut up and get with the program [*sic*]? -- Ross Howard > >I wonder what the EU itself has said about British vs. American styles, > >somewhere in its billions of sheets of paper. > > For logical-enough reasons, British/Irish English is the official > version of English in the EU, Can you happen to point to where they say this? I'm curious as to how they put it. I have no idea how they organize and publish their guidelines. Naturally I'd expect papers coming *out of* the UK and Ireland to follow the standards of those countries. I would not be surprised, given what you say, if official papers produced by the EU itself are edited to follow British standards. But I wouldn't expect the EU to refuse to accept, or to re-edit, all Americanisms that appear in English written by other nationalities, in all the papers that pass through its system. The EU officials wouldn't know, they wouldn't care, and they wouldn't have time (combination of all three). >just as French/Belgian (rather than > Canadian or Haitian) French, and Spanish (rather than Mexican or [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > American English within Europe is just the way the globalized cookie > crumbles? Well, yes, I suppose you can put it that way. People in, say, Austria, are free to hire what teachers of English they like, and provide what English textbooks they like, and to attend institutions of higher learning wherever they like, and if those teachers, books, and institutions happen to be American or follow American standards, that's what the people are going to wind up learning, and using during their professional career. (I suspect in reality a great deal of English instruction in Europe *is* done to British standards. But not all.) You appear to be saying that no matter what English the people in Europe learn, when they submit reports to the EU, they should switch to British standards. I say that's unrealistic. Even people who know one standard well don't know all the ins and outs of the other standard. Heck, native American English speakers can't just switch and produce British English documents, so foreign learners are even more unlikely. Now, one solution would be for the EU to require that all English *instruction* within EU borders should follow British standards. Then, eventually, everyone who was a product of such a system would write the way you like. But wouldn't such a dictate be more invasive than the old carrot-jam and straight-banana stories? Sorry if my teasing you about motives sounded like "bizarre taunts," but besides you reporting that you have an emotional response to this ("What miffs me is"), I haven't seen the logic that overwhelms the practical limits of language instruction. >Are you really suggesting that the two EU Member States who > use other varieties of English -- and because of whose EU membership > English is one of the official EU languages -- should just shut up and > get with the program [*sic*]? You're the first person I've heard make this complaint. I'm not telling lots of people to shut up because I am not aware that lots of people are complaining. Are they? I'm not even telling you to shut up, I just think your emotional reaction has stopped you from thinking about *why* it is that you see so much American English in Europe. It could be an interesting question, if you were just a bit more detached. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux >> >I wonder what the EU itself has said about British vs. American styles, >> >somewhere in its billions of sheets of paper. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >they put it. I have no idea how they organize and publish their >guidelines. http://europa.eu.int/comm/translation/writing/style_guides/english/frame_index_en.htm [QUOTE] 2.1 British spelling. You should give preference in your work to English usage of the British Isles. Influences are crossing the Atlantic in both directions all the time of course (the spellings program and disk have become required British usage in data processing, for example). 2.2 Words in -ise/-ize. Use -ise. Both spellings are correct in British English, but the -ise form is much more common. It is the convention in most British book publishing, and in British newspapers. The Times converted overnight in the mid-1980s, at about the time two new broadsheets were founded (The Independent and The European), which have used -ise from the beginning. Using the -ise spelling as a general rule does away with the need to list the most common cases where it must be used anyway. (There are up to 40 exceptions to the -ize convention: the lists vary in length, most not claiming to be exhaustive.) Temporary inconsistencies occurring when legislation is amended will be ironed out over time as texts are consolidated. 2.3 The -yse form for such words as paralyse and analyse is the only correct spelling in British English. 2.4 Judgment. Use the form without the middle -e-, in line with the European Court of Justice. 2.5 Digraphs. Keep the digraph in aetiology, caesium, foetus, oenology, oestrogen, etc. (etiology etc. are US usage). [...] [END QUOTE] One good thing has come out of this disagreement, at least, Donna: I've finally found the complete EU English style guide online. [Rest snipped because it all followed from that question, really] -- Ross Howard >One good thing has come out of this disagreement, at least, Donna: >I've finally found the complete EU English style guide online. Well done Ross - and thank you. I foresee many hours of reading ahead. There is something in the style guide that might get some Leftpondians jumping about - the word "acronym" is used to refer to all initialisms. SignaturePeter Duncanson UK (posting from a.e.u) >http://europa.eu.int/comm/translation/writing/style_guides/english/frame_index_en.htm That style guide page has a broken link to an EU 'Clear Writing' website. Googling to find it, I found this instead http://www.thesprout.net/001/graft/graft06.htm <quote> The Sprout 2nd. September 2002 DAFT DIRECTIVE: COMMISSION 'CLEAR WRITING AWARDS' CANCELLED (Brussels) The European Commission has decided to scrap an award ceremony that acknowledged the clear writing of reports and dossiers by EC officials, The Sprout has learnt. Launched in a Blaze of Glory in July last year at a star studded gala awards ceremony, with Kinnock presenting and Brussels perma-hack Rory Watson giving his tuppenny-worth, the Commission Clear Writing Awards - called 'fight the fog' - have disappeared into the brouillard from whence they came. Last year's organiser, now on sick leave, was unable to repeat the performance, but admitted that the main reason for the events collapse was that there were not enough nominations. "The main thing is to have some examples of good writing produced by Eurocrats", she said. </quote> SignaturePeter Duncanson UK (posting from a.e.u) In alt.usage.english, Peter Duncanson wrote: ><quote> [...] >the Commission Clear Writing Awards - called 'fight the fog' - have >disappeared into the brouillard from whence they came. > >Last year's organiser, now on sick leave, What a surprise! Eurocrats are very fond of sick-leave. And I bet he or she never returns to work. Few Eurocrats who take sick-leave do. According to a Court of Auditors* report on the Eurocracy's invalidity pension scheme published in March this year, there are ... extremely low rates of reinstatement, especially in the 50% of cases involving psychological disorders. 50%? More than 20% of all Eurocrats finish their working lives because of sickness, so an unkind person might conclude that 10% of all Eurocrats eventually go bonkers. But the situation is more complicated than that. In certain grades, invalidity pensions are more generous than regular pensions: retirement because of sickness is especially prevalent in these grades. (Nudge, nudge.) The Court recommended 'the adoption of adequate administrative measures for prevention and early treatment' of psychological disorders and the removal of 'obstacles resulting from certain provisions of the Staff Regulations'. (Essentially, it called for better managers and better staff.) When similar recommendations were made six or seven years ago they were vetoed by (I think) the EU's Anti-Fraud Office. > was unable to repeat the >performance, but admitted that the main reason for the events collapse was >that there were not enough nominations. "The main thing is to have some >examples of good writing produced by Eurocrats", she said. ></quote> That's a bit unfair. How about this, from another Court of Auditors report: The Court considers it important that the European public administration should be enabled to perform the tasks assigned to it by the Treaties in the best way possible. It is, in this context, essential that the European civil service should possess the qualities of independence, competence, high productivity, effectiveness and integrity. Clear as gin, n'est-ce pas? *The Court of Auditors has issued an allegorical poster encapsulating its essence or its activities or something. It shows two bald men slapping each other around the face with bunches of unripe bananas. (Undersized, yes, but not excessively curved.) Or perhaps they are being bothered by a wasp. Or it's an explosion in a glove factory. Or cottagers becoming acquainted through a hedge. I don't know. Can anyone make any sense of it? I am a bit over-literal at times. http://www.eca.eu.int/EN/questions_en.htm SignatureMickwick >In alt.usage.english, Peter Duncanson wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >regular pensions: retirement because of sickness is especially prevalent >in these grades. (Nudge, nudge.) This sort of thing is not confined to Eurocrats. The British police service has long been notorious for exactly the same thing; with the additional twist that a significant proportion of those who retire early on health grounds do so while they have disciplinary charges pending against them. SignatureDon Aitken Mail to the addresses given in the headers is no longer being read. To mail me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com". In alt.usage.english, Don Aitken wrote: >On Sat, 6 Dec 2003 18:03:31 +0000, Mickwick <mickwick@use.reply.to> >>In certain grades, invalidity pensions are more generous than >>regular pensions: retirement because of sickness is especially prevalent [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >early on health grounds do so while they have disciplinary charges >pending against them. Personally, I blame Z Cars. That lot were much rougher and less moral than good old Sergeant Dixon. A few years of that and before you knew it they were all taking bribes and drugs and using bad language and shagging each other before the watershed and not a bicycle in sight. Brian Blessed has a lot to answer for. SignatureMickwick >In alt.usage.english, Don Aitken wrote: >>On Sat, 6 Dec 2003 18:03:31 +0000, Mickwick <mickwick@use.reply.to> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >Brian Blessed has a lot to answer for. Compounded by Ms Juliet "Bang to Rights, Incha" Bravo. -- Ross Howard [..] >*The Court of Auditors has issued an allegorical poster encapsulating >its essence or its activities or something. It shows two bald men [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >http://www.eca.eu.int/EN/questions_en.htm It seems to be a pictorial representation of one or other of the adages: "Many hands make light work." "Too many cooks spoil the broth." Which one you choose depends on your view of whether the EU is an organisation with sound financial practices. I'm waiting for a good picture of FUBAR, which would describe the EU very precisely. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England In alt.usage.english, Dr Robin Bignall wrote: >>I don't know. Can anyone make any sense of it? I am a bit over-literal >>at times. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >organisation with sound financial practices. I'm waiting for a good picture >of FUBAR, which would describe the EU very precisely. The new flag might fit the bill. According to a Foucaultian deconstruction by the Columbian architect Carlos Betancourth*, it aims to exchange tolerance for toll-errance and transform the EU into a society of control. Koolhaas' logo for the European Community suggests that control is digital, that is, control translates everything into the logic of codes and passwords, and thus transgresses the duality of mass and individual. "Individuals become 'dividuals,' and masses become samples, data, markets or 'banks'" (Deleuze 1995: 180). Control transforms "the body into a password" (Lyon 2001: 75). The society of control can interpellate the subject in absentia through electronic lists (see Poster 1996). Regulating a fluid and endlessly divisible, fractal, "multitude" rather than "peoples", control produces a hybrid, metastable subjectivity that no longer corresponds to stable identities of the disciplinary society (Hardt & Negri 2000: 331-2). In this sense control brings with it an infinite intensification of discipline in a smooth space devoid of enclosures; control is discipline without walls, a mobile form of discipline that regulates humans and non-humans "on the move" (Lyon 2001: 63). Nomadism was once a critical tool against discipline, a "line of flight" out of the panopticon, but control society captures nomadic "war machines", accommodating them for its own purposes (see Deleuze & Guattari 1987: 387). Someone less erudite might simply say that the new logo-cum-flag is a complete mess. *The complete deconstruction may be found at the website of Loughborough University's Globalization and World Cities Study Group and Network: http://www.lboro.ac.uk/gawc/rb/rb86.html SignatureMickwick >In alt.usage.english, Dr Robin Bignall wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > >http://www.lboro.ac.uk/gawc/rb/rb86.html Thanks for that Mickwick. I pray that someone has the sense to pass all of these bar-coded idiots through a reader, bag them and drop them into a bottomless supermarket trolley. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England In alt.usage.english, Donna Richoux wrote: [...] >But wouldn't such a dictate be more invasive than the old >carrot-jam and straight-banana stories? Stories, she says! (ObAUE: Dictate? Is that AmE for diktat? I think it's only used as a plural in BrE.) SignatureMickwick > In alt.usage.english, Donna Richoux wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Stories, she says! > (ObAUE: Dictate? Is that AmE for diktat? I think it's only used as a > plural in BrE.) Maybe it's used in the plural more, but I don't think it *has* to be. Singular seems to fit my sentence above. M-W has: Main Entry: 2dic·tate Function: noun Date: 1594 1 a : an authoritative rule, prescription, or injunction b : a ruling principle <according to the dictates of your conscience> 2 : a command by one in authority Google shows over 3000 hits for "a dictate" and 7000 for "the dictate" although quite a few are attributive, like "the dictate button." Not all of them are, though. In particular, with "such" Such a dictate from Washington to the states sets a very dangerous precedent WDC says such a dictate is unnecessary Most knew Peres would never accept such a dictate So when is "dictates" used, then? Looking up "the dictates", nearly all of them have the form of "the dictates of XXX" -- fashion, conscience, security, justice, the soul, etc. All sort of metaphorical and abstract, not actual memos and guidelines issued on paper. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux In alt.usage.english, Donna Richoux wrote: >So when is "dictates" used, then? Looking up "the dictates", nearly all >of them have the form of "the dictates of XXX" -- fashion, conscience, >security, justice, the soul, etc. All sort of metaphorical and abstract, >not actual memos and guidelines issued on paper. I think that's the only way I've seen it used. SignatureMickwick >>> >> What miffs me is the number of texts I see produced in English in EU >>> >> countries for EU consumption yet with American spelling. [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] >English is one of the official EU languages -- should just shut up and >get with the program [*sic*]? I agree. One irony of this situation is that in so many other ways the EU is trying to _resist_ Americanization. SignaturePeter Duncanson UK (posting from a.e.u) [...] > I can't even think of an analogy to your complaint. Something like > people in Detroit being annoyed that anyone in the US has the nerve to > buy German and Japanese cars. But that one at least has some rational > economic justification, besides just wounded pride. > >[...] OBaue, sort of: "Annoyed" is not quite the word I would use. Many of the people in Detroit (and in other cities where American cars and trucks are built) are, instead of "annoyed," dumbfounded or even appalled by the shortsightedness shown by Americans who buy foreign products, especially cars. Those buyers frequently respond to such criticism by saying that they have the right to buy whatever they want and can afford. That's true, but that's not the issue. The issue, as you rightly point out, is the economy. And what has the Auto Industry done to cut costs? For one thing, they've shipped Customer Service telephone jobs to India, where the pay is less. That's not going to help the U. S. economy, either. And besides, the price of a car is not quite the factor that's operative here these days. If it were, would there be so many Lexus and Mercedes[1] and other foreign luxury models being driven in the U. S.? [1] How to pluralize? Lexuses? Lexi? Mercedeses? What? I don't know, and that's why I called them "models." Maria Conlon Detroit-Area Resident whose husband, son, and daughter (and various other relatives and friends) work in the Auto Industry. But I would feel the same way even sans the Industry connection. > [1] How to pluralize? Lexuses? Lexi? Mercedeses? What? I don't know, and > that's why I called them "models." - No rides for us in the top of a bus All alone in the freezing breezes! - You'll reach your goals in your comfy old Rolls Or in one of your Mercedeses! "How can love survive?" _The_Sound_of_Music_ I don't think it made it into the movie version. Why do they always leave out the best songs? > > [1] How to pluralize? Lexuses? Lexi? Mercedeses? What? I don't know, and > > that's why I called them "models." [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > I don't think it made it into the movie version. That and two others were omitted from the movie. One song was added. My recollection is consistent with this site: <http://www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity/Studio/8849/Moviemusicals/Edelweiss/salz burg.htm#From Stage to Screen> or <http://tinyurl.com/xs2e>. > Why do they always leave out the best songs? "Always?" If you judge by subsequent history, I'd say "My Favorite Things" was the best song in the show. John Coltrane proved that single-handedly, and he's had plenty of company since. A pleasant and fecund little waltz. Oh, on the subject of plurals of proper nouns -- Proper nouns follow the standard English plural form, not the foreign language form of the corresponding common noun, if any. Hence "Lexuses," Ford "Focuses," "Criterions" (Criterion brand CDs; see <http://www.dvdtimes.co.uk/content.php?contentid=5917>), etc. There are probably a few exceptions, but --factious ones like "Lexi" aside -- I can't think of any. SignatureBob Lieblich The Hills are Alive (and I Talk to the Trees) > >> What miffs me is the number of texts I see produced in English in EU > >> countries for EU consumption yet with American spelling. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > reams of reports addressed to Eurocrats that talk about "business > centers" and "inner-city neighborhoods". Are you suggesting that they should produce two sets of documents, one with BrE spelling and punctuation conventions for intra-EU use, to satisfy the British end of things, and the other with AmE spelling and punctuation conventions for extra-EU use in order to cater to the American and other AmE-based markets? Two sets of everything does sound like something the EU might do in its wisdom, but maybe they decided not to for some foolish reason. >> >> What miffs me is the number of texts I see produced in English in EU >> >> countries for EU consumption yet with American spelling. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >punctuation conventions for extra-EU use in order to cater to the >American and other AmE-based markets? Not at all. I'm only talking about, for example, applications for EU grants by Spanish or French firms -- documents prepared specifically to be read only by Europeans -- that are written in American English. -- Ross Howard > Not at all. I'm only talking about, for example, applications for EU > grants by Spanish or French firms -- documents prepared specifically > to be read only by Europeans -- that are written in American English. Out of curiousity, does anybody know if the Spanish or French versions of NAFTA-related documents produced in/by the US are specifically in Mexican Spanish and Quebequois French? Would anybody care? SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |When you rewrite a compiler from 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |scratch, you sometimes fix things Palo Alto, CA 94304 |you didn't know were broken. | Larry Wall kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > Out of curiousity, does anybody know if the Spanish or French versions > of NAFTA-related documents produced in/by the US are specifically in > Mexican Spanish and Quebequois French? Would anybody care? If a document is produced in the USA for Spanish-speakers, chances are it is about as Mexican as Taco Bell. SignatureWes Groleau "Grant me the serenity to accept those I cannot change; the courage to change the one I can; and the wisdom to know it's me." -- unknown > > Out of curiousity, does anybody know if the Spanish or French > > versions of NAFTA-related documents produced in/by the US are [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > If a document is produced in the USA for Spanish-speakers, chances > are it is about as Mexican as Taco Bell. Yeah. Where would you find a native speaker of Spanish in this country? SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |When you're ready to break a rule, 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |you _know_ that you're ready; you Palo Alto, CA 94304 |don't need anyone else to tell |you. (If you're not that certain, kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |then you're _not_ ready.) (650)857-7572 | Tom Phoenix http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > Yeah. Where would you find a native speaker of Spanish in this > country? There are plenty of them around here, but how often do we ask them to critique our translations? SignatureWes Groleau Genealogical Lookups: http://groleau.freeshell.org/ref/lookups.html > > Yeah. Where would you find a native speaker of Spanish in this > > country? > > There are plenty of them around here, but how often do we ask them > to critique our translations? I would expect that most of the official translations around here (geographically) are *made* by native speakers. Or, failing that, people with near-native-speaker competence. If I were submitting a paper to a Spanish-language journal, I'd probably take a cut at it myself, but I'd certainly ask for a critique from one of the native speakers in my Lab. (Which, in my case, would mean I'd get Mexican intuitions.) SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Theories are not matters of fact, 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |they are derived from observing Palo Alto, CA 94304 |fact. If you don't have data, you |don't get good theories. You get kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |theology instead. (650)857-7572 | --John Lawler http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >> > Yeah. Where would you find a native speaker of Spanish in this >> > country? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >speakers in my Lab. (Which, in my case, would mean I'd get Mexican >intuitions.) Be a pro, Evan, and hire a pro. We're efficient. We're cost-effective. We need the work. (Your Mexican colleagues would get the tech stuff right, obviously, and would be of invaluable assistance for terminology questions, but for top-notch prose, a proper translator should do the first draft.) -- Ross Howard > I would expect that most of the official translations around here > (geographically) are *made* by native speakers. Or, failing that, > people with near-native-speaker competence. If I were submitting a Having read some (and having listened to some native speakers complain) I'd have to say far too many were not. Worst I ever saw, though, I can't blame on a non-native speaker--unless you count the guy who ran a cheap machine translation program and ran off copies of the output. :-) SignatureWes Groleau "Ideas are more powerful than guns, We would not let our enemies have guns; why should we let them have ideas?" -- Jozef Stalin >> I would expect that most of the official translations around here >> (geographically) are *made* by native speakers. Or, failing that, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > translation program and ran off copies of the > output. :-) Shameless non-commercial plug: <http://home.online.no/~shughes/a57998/bruse.html> A demonstration of machine translation into English. SignatureSimon R. Hughes > <http://home.online.no/~shughes/a57998/bruse.html> > > A demonstration of machine translation into English. Which says: "In my opinion, another step is required: hire a flesh and blood translator." And I agree. This is true even of the best. Many of them are good enough that (although I wouldn't DARE deliver their output to anyone except to show how bad it is) they do save time in translation. I run the tool, and then I edit the results. However, there are a few (and InterTran is one of these) that are so bad, using them first WASTES time. SignatureWes Groleau Is it an on-line compliment to call someone a Net Wit ? In alt.usage.english, Wes Groleau wrote: >[translation tools] > >I run the tool, and then I edit the results. > >However, there are a few (and InterTran is one of these) >that are so bad, using them first WASTES time. A lot depends on the skill level of the translator. Several years ago I made extensive use of SYSTRAN (the $20-ish downloadable version of the babelfish translator used by Google) with a language I simply didn't know. The results of the translation software were truly awful[1], and I would defy anyone to understand most of the raw output. But it allowed me, with the aid of some reference materials including a dictionary, to translate a few dozen pages from a book, in a *much* shorter time than would otherwise have been possible - in fact, without the software the job would have been impractical[2]. Had I started with a reasonable working knowledge of the language, I'm not so sure the software would have helped much, if at all. The software was *bad*, but what worked in its favour was that my skills were even worse. I'm guessing that your skills are pretty good, which is why some software is of so little use to you. [1] Not all of the problems can be blamed on the translation software - there was also a pretty high level of scanning error, but I found it too time-consuming to correct the scans just to have the results garbled by the translation process. [2] I had a native speaker check my work, and she pronounced it good. She found it *very* hard to believe that I done the translation without being able to speak or write a single sentence in the language concerned[3]. [3] German, if anyone's interested. SignatureMike Barnes Cheshire, England > In alt.usage.english, Wes Groleau wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > would otherwise have been possible - in fact, without the software the > job would have been impractical[2]. OK, I'll grant that this may be a realistic scenario, but even here ..... If I just wanted to know what the stuff was about, I might do this, but if I wanted a quality translation, and knew the tool was poor, I'd be looking up every word out of distrust of the tool. Plus checking for idioms and grammar in reference works. (By the way, seventy years ago, many scholars learned classical languages just by doing translation that way. Somewhere between the fourth and twentieth time you look something up, it sticks. Maybe not an efficient way to learn, but a way.) SignatureWes Groleau Guidelines for judging others: 1. Don't attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity. 2. Don't attribute to stupidity that which can be adequately explained by ignorance. 3. Don't attribute to ignorance that which can be adequately explained by misunderstanding. > > > Yeah. Where would you find a native speaker of Spanish in this > > > country? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > (geographically) are *made* by native speakers. Or, failing that, > people with near-native-speaker competence. I would wish it. There are indeed plenty of native speakers of Spanish around where I live, but a lot of them aren't well educated in Spanish or in English or both. Among those that are, I've been surprised at how many translate idioms literally. I admit that I have seen official documents in Spanish that are beyond my ability to criticize. In most cases I don't know how a native speaker would feel about them, though. > If I were submitting a > paper to a Spanish-language journal, I'd probably take a cut at it > myself, but I'd certainly ask for a critique from one of the native > speakers in my Lab. (Which, in my case, would mean I'd get Mexican > intuitions.) (And Mexican beliefs.) This might well work better than asking your Mexican colleagues to do the first draft, and not just because they probably don't have time to translate a whole paper. Unless one of them is as interested in language as you are. SignatureJerry Friedman On 5 Dec 2003 15:16:57 -0800, jerry_friedman@yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) said that Evan Kirshenbaum wrote that Wes Groleau wrote that > > > > Yeah. Where would you find a native speaker of > > > > Spanish in this country? Sometimes as I visit convenience stores and gas stations and as I try to converse with a gardener or a cleaning lady, I long to find a native speaker of English in this country. But maybe that's the sort of thing Evan was ironically implying. I once mentioned to a barber the way we had taken California from Mexico. He said, "But now they're taking it back." > There are indeed plenty of native speakers of Spanish around where I > live, but a lot of them aren't well educated in Spanish or in English > or both. Among those that are, I've been surprised at how many > translate idioms literally. The head of the nail is hit. Most of our (Western Australian) government documents giving advice to citizens (eg how to vote) are published in a whole range of so-called 'ethnic languages' - Italian, Greek, Serbian, Croatian, Macedonian, at least 2 varieties of Chinese, etc. - often, so I am assured by native speakers, they contain not so much errors, but strange locutions. I am fairly certain that this is (a) because the translator did not understand the original English (b) particularly in the case of Macedonian, the translator had little or no schooling in his/her mother tongue (c) the translator's general education level was poor (d) the translator, especially in the case of Slavonic languages, claimed to be able to translate several languages, but couldn't. SignatureRob Bannister > The head of the nail is hit. Most of our (Western Australian) > government documents giving advice to citizens (eg how to vote) are [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > (d) the translator, especially in the case of Slavonic languages, > claimed to be able to translate several languages, but couldn't. The only one that I'd expect to be at all a problem with respect to Spanish in California (and for the federal government) is (b), as I'd guess that most people who grow up bilingual here don't get a whole lot of education in formal Spanish unless they seek it out. But enough people do seek it out, and there are enough people who come here as adults with degrees and enough people who produce newspapers and books in Spanish that there is no dearth of people here perfectly competent to translate into Spanish. On the local level (store signs, notes sent home from school), it's true that there are lots of dicey translations, but I'd be surprised to see "official" translations that are bad...at least not for long, because people would complain. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |If we have to re-invent the wheel, 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |can we at least make it round this Palo Alto, CA 94304 |time? kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > > Out of curiousity, does anybody know if the Spanish or French versions > > of NAFTA-related documents produced in/by the US are specifically in [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Spanish-speakers, chances are it is about > as Mexican as Taco Bell. Wes, I'm truly amazed that you'd say something like this, even for its humorous value. In my work I have known many colleagues whose first language is a form of Spanish: Mexican, Puerto Rican, Venezualan, Chilean, and even Castillan. And these folks lived and worked in the US and many of them were college-educated in their Spanish-speaking country of birth. That's like saying that what we Americans write is about as English as the hamburger in London. -YJ > That's like saying that what we Americans write is about as English as > the hamburger in London. I'm still trying to work this sentence out. You appear to be saying that the hamburger in London is not English and so what Americans write is not English either. I don't think that's what you intended. SignatureRob Bannister >>If a document is produced in the USA for >>Spanish-speakers, chances are it is about [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > US and many of them were college-educated in their Spanish-speaking > country of birth. I think you misunderstood. The question was whether NAFTA-related Spanish documents aimed at being Mexican Spanish. I was trying to imply that they are more likely "USA Spanish" and in some cases it may be generous to call them any kind of Spanish. SignatureWes Groleau Can we afford to be relevant? http://www.cetesol.org/stevick.html > >>If a document is produced in the USA for > >>Spanish-speakers, chances are it is about [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > "USA Spanish" and in some cases it may be generous to > call them any kind of Spanish. Sorry Wes, I certainly did misunderstand. I'm sorry to have mentioned you directly and to have implied anything wrong. -YJ > > Out of curiousity, does anybody know if the Spanish or French versions > > of NAFTA-related documents produced in/by the US are specifically in [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Spanish-speakers, chances are it is about > as Mexican as Taco Bell. Wes, I'm amazed and disappointed that you'd write such a demeaning thing, even if it was for humor's sake. I've worked with many people from Mexico, Puerto Rico, Venezuela, Chile, and even Spain here in the USA. Many of these fine folks were college-educated in their native Spanish-speaking countries and have as good a command of their Spanish dialects as any of us on this forum have of English. To equate their production of English documents in Spanish (which I have often seen) with Taco Bell is an insult, as many of us perceive Taco Bell as just another Pepsico division service American food with some hot sauce, and thus is nowhere near anything Mexican. -Yukon Jack > as many of us perceive Taco Bell as just another Pepsico division > service American food with some hot sauce, and thus is nowhere near > anything Mexican. 'Tain't no more. PepsiCo acquired Taco Bell (founded in 1962) in 1978 and divested itself of it in 1997, spinning off a company called "TriCon Global Restaurants" to manage Taco Bell, KFC (acquired by PepsiCo in 1986), and Pizza Hut (acquired in 1977). This company (now called "Yum! Brands, Inc.") now also runs Long John Silver's and A&W. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Whatever it is that the government 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |does, sensible Americans would prefer Palo Alto, CA 94304 |that the government do it to somebody |else. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | P.J. O'Rourke (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > > > Out of curiousity, does anybody know if the Spanish or French versions > > > of NAFTA-related documents produced in/by the US are specifically in [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > American food with some hot sauce, and thus is nowhere near anything > Mexican. Next time you're in an airport, read the TSA's Spanish versions of the security instructions. I noticed a mistake that I'll bet your admirable co-workers wouldn't have made--but unfortunately an official U.S. translator made it. (Sorry, I don't remember what it was.) SignatureJerry Friedman > Next time you're in an airport, read the TSA's Spanish versions of the > security instructions. I noticed a mistake that I'll bet your > admirable co-workers wouldn't have made--but unfortunately an official > U.S. translator made it. (Sorry, I don't remember what it was.) Or take a look at http://www.engrish.com/ It's funny, but it happens. And we do the same sort of thing to their language. SignatureWes Groleau Nobody believes a theoretical analysis -- except the guy who did it. Everybody believes an experimental analysis -- except the guy who did it. -- Unknown > Or take a look at http://www.engrish.com/ > > It's funny, but it happens. And we do the same > sort of thing to their language. Are there any examples (described in English) of Japanese writing mangled by English speakers? SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |The body was wrapped in duct tape, 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |weighted down with concrete blocks Palo Alto, CA 94304 |and a telephone cord was tied |around the neck. Police suspect kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |foul play... (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > Wes Groleau <groleau@freeshell.org> writes: >>Or take a look at http://www.engrish.com/ [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Are there any examples (described in English) of Japanese writing > mangled by English speakers? I should have said, "and we do the same thing to other languages" I don't know about online examples, but I have a second-hand report of a billboard in El Paso wishing all the locals Feliz Ano Nuevo! SignatureWes Groleau Alive and Well http://freepages.religions.rootsweb.com/~wgroleau/ >> Wes Groleau <groleau@freeshell.org> writes: >>>Or take a look at http://www.engrish.com/ [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Feliz Ano Nuevo! To be fair for once -- since I've done my fair share of complaining about Spanish-mangling in the past -- it's just as common in Spanish publications to see umlautless German (most people don't know about the following "e" alternative), cedilla-free Turkish and slashless Scandinavian vowels, which I assume in some instances must result in similarly hilarious manglings for native speakers of those languages. -- Ross Howard > >>Or take a look at http://www.engrish.com/ > >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Feliz Ano Nuevo! When the current Pope first visited the US, he was greeted by a large crowd, many of whom were waving signs that said "Viva la Papa." SignatureBob Lieblich Yum > >>Or take a look at http://www.engrish.com/ > >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Feliz Ano Nuevo! When the current Pope first visited the US, he was greeted by a large crowd, many of whom were waving signs that said "Viva la Papa." SignatureBob Lieblich Yum > When the current Pope first visited the US, he was greeted by a > large crowd, many of whom were waving signs that said "Viva la > Papa." :-) And then someone slipped some 'acid' into his tea and he became Una Papa Frita ... SignatureWes Groleau Genealogical Lookups: http://groleau.freeshell.org/ref/lookups.html > > Or take a look at http://www.engrish.com/ > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Are there any examples (described in English) of Japanese writing > mangled by English speakers? In _The Bodyguard_, the Kevin Costner character goes to see the movie _Yojimbo_. The neon sign of the movie theater says "atashi", which is strange for a theater's name, because it means "me" (used (mostly) by women). I suspect it was meant to be "shiata", which means "theater" in Japanese. And then, http://www.edecals.com/orient/ That is an English website, where they sell car stickers written in Japanese. The kanji characters are accurate, but some of them look really funny, if they put them on the car. They say "our kanji lettering is provided with the most accurate translations", which is true for the most words, but it's interesting that they translated "dangerous individual"(English) into "actress"(Japanese). There are a lot of Japanese webpages about strange Japanese they found in foreign movies, T-shirts, or tattoos, but it happens all the time, as Wes Groleau said, when we use foreign languages. SignatureNobuko Iwasaki > I've worked with many people from Mexico, Puerto Rico, Venezuela, > Chile, and even Spain here in the USA. Many of these fine folks were > college-educated in their native Spanish-speaking countries and have as > good a command of their Spanish dialects as any of us on this forum > have of English. To equate their production of English documents in > Spanish (which I have often seen) with Taco Bell is an insult, as many I hit send too soon. I was not equating Spanish produced by a native speaker with Taco Bell. I was suggesting that not all documents are produced by native speakers. Heck, I have seen grammatically incorrect and lexically incorrect stuff in textbooks designed for teaching Spanish. However, since you bring it up, being a native speaker does not automatically make one a good writer, much less a good translator. SignatureWes Groleau ----------- Curmudgeon's Complaints on Courtesy: http://www.onlinenetiquette.com/courtesy1.html (Not necessarily my opinion, but worth reading) > > I've worked with many people from Mexico, Puerto Rico, Venezuela, > > Chile, and even Spain here in the USA. Many of these fine folks were [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > does not automatically make one a good writer, much less > a good translator. And you hit the nail on the head with this one. At one point in my career I wore a lot of hats supporting several fiber-optic products that were being sold in various countries in Europe. One of these was to copy-edit documents from Engineering (and even Marketing!) before sending them to the translator. And these are otherwise extremely competent and intelligent people who spoke English as their first language. Excellent speakers (as in presentations) as well. Getting their thoughts organized and written down on paper just wasn't within their skill set. Cheers, -Yukon Jack > language. Excellent speakers (as in presentations) as well. Getting > their thoughts organized and written down on paper just wasn't within > their skill set. And some programmers have been talking to computers for so long, we've _forgotten_ how to talk to people. SignatureWes Groleau Heroes, Heritage, and History http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~wgroleau/ > >> >> What miffs me is the number of texts I see produced in English in EU > >> >> countries for EU consumption yet with American spelling. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > grants by Spanish or French firms -- documents prepared specifically > to be read only by Europeans -- that are written in American English. What's the alternative? Should those companies employ two sets of translators, one for British English and one for American?` The Nordic countries have treaties requiring each country to accept official communication written in the other countries' languages. If Swedes can accept documents in Danish I think we brits can survive "color" and "under the hood". -- Colin >> >> >> What miffs me is the number of texts I see produced in English in EU >> >> >> countries for EU consumption yet with American spelling. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >Swedes can accept documents in Danish I think we brits can survive >"color" and "under the hood". Of course we can. However, your analogy with the Nordic countries is slightly off target in two ways. 1. We are discussing the official use within the EU of a form of English that is not the native English in any of the constituent states of the EU, or of any EU-born citizens. 2. As far as I am aware this situation is not the result of any formal decision making process during which the pros and cons could be discussed. There is no treaty or similar formal agreement. SignaturePeter Duncanson UK (posting from a.e.u) >>> >> >> What miffs me is the number of texts I see produced in English in EU >>> >> >> countries for EU consumption yet with American spelling. [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] >decision making process during which the pros and cons could be discussed. >There is no treaty or similar formal agreement. I see that Ross Howard had found the EU English style guide. It is based Br/Ir spelling. SignaturePeter Duncanson UK (posting from a.e.u) >>>> >> >> What miffs me is the number of texts I see produced in English in EU >>>> >> >> countries for EU consumption yet with American spelling. [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > I see that Ross Howard had found the EU English style guide. It is based > Br/Ir spelling. But for the idiosyncratic/ American "judgment" (no middle "e"). SignatureSimon R. Hughes > > I see that Ross Howard had found the EU English style guide. It is based > > Br/Ir spelling. > > But for the idiosyncratic/ American "judgment" (no middle "e"). Americans are divided on how to spell "judgement/judgment." I take it by your comment that Britons are not. My thanks to Ross for chasing down the URL. I am pleased to see it considers itself a style guide -- as it says, "a practical source of information and an aid to consistency" -- and not some sort of fiat. The introduction begins: This Style Guide is intended primarily for English-language staff and freelance translators working for the Commission's Translation Service. However, now that so much of the Commission's work is being drafted in English by native and non-native speakers alike, we hope these rules, reminders and handy references may be helpful to a wider readership as well. I'll add the URL to Intro B, in with the other style guides. To repeat it here: http://europa.eu.int/comm/translation/writing/style_guides/english/frame _index_en.htm SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux On 03 Dec 2003, Donna Richoux wrote >>> I see that Ross Howard had found the EU English style guide. It >>> is based Br/Ir spelling. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Americans are divided on how to spell "judgement/judgment." I take > it by your comment that Britons are not. As Burchfield notes, the "judgement" version is the "more or less prevailing" one in BrEng, but "judgment" is used in legal circles. SignatureCheers, Harvey Ottawa/Toronto/Edmonton for 30 years; Southern England for the past 21 years. (for e-mail, change harvey to whhvs) >On 03 Dec 2003, Donna Richoux wrote > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >As Burchfield notes, the "judgement" version is the "more or less >prevailing" one in BrEng, but "judgment" is used in legal circles. Two British desk dictionaries: Chambers - "judgment (also judgement)" Reader's Digest Oxford - "judgement (also judgment)" SignaturePeter Duncanson UK (posting from a.e.u) >> > I see that Ross Howard had found the EU English style guide. It is based >> > Br/Ir spelling. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Americans are divided on how to spell "judgement/judgment." I take it by >your comment that Britons are not. They are. The courts themselves, and all official court reports, leave out the "e". The great majority of ordinary people put it in. Fowler/Gowers says: "Judgement is now preferred to the once orthodox judgment. The latter is the spelling of the AV, but the RV and the NEB have judgement, and the OED favours the retention of the e both here and in similar words ... There are some who would differentiate by using judgment for the judicial pronouncement and judgement for all other purposes. This may be too subtle for popular taste, but authority for some such distinction can be found in the rules of the OUP, which favours judgment in legal works, and judgement in all others." SignatureDon Aitken Mail to the addresses given in the headers is no longer being read. To mail me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com". >> > I see that Ross Howard had found the EU English style guide. It is based >> > Br/Ir spelling. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >My thanks to Ross for chasing down the URL. I've been looking for it on and off for years with no success, relying on using actual EU documents as precedents for stuff I was translating for Brussels. This is the first time I've searched for it in the Google era, however, and it popped up quite easily. It's important to remember two things, though: (1) it's primarily targeted at translators, which skews its focus a bit; and (2) it's only applicable to the Commission, so your kilometrage may vary with other EU bodies and institutions (indeed, I know it does -- I've seen both "Member State" and "member State" in Brussels-generated documents, for example.) >I am pleased to see it >considers itself a style guide -- as it says, "a practical source of >information and an aid to consistency" -- and not some sort of fiat. Even so, it is generally understood by all translators working for the EU either directly or indirectly as freelancers that the English expected is British English. An American colleague of mine even occasionally asks me to give important EU documents that she has translated for me a check to make sure that they're suitably "Britished up". I remember when, eight or nine years ago now, I was first commissioned to translate something for Brussels, it was made very clear to me that BrE is what was expected. It has also been mentioned to me several times since then. This suggests either that my client's client -- some Eurocrat or other, I assume -- specifically included BrE as a requirement in the brief for the job, or that the agency was aware of some all-encompassing directive to that effect. -- Ross Howard > > > I see that Ross Howard had found the EU English > > > style guide. It is based Br/Ir spelling. > > But for the idiosyncratic/ American "judgment" (no > > middle "e"). > Americans are divided on how to spell > "judgement/judgment." I take it by your comment that > Britons are not. The English English dictionary _The New Shorter Oxford English Dictionary_ says judgement /"dZVdZm(<schwa>)nt/ n. Also (the usual form in legal use) - dgm-. So, according to them, "judgment" is right if you're a lawyer and it's not right if you're an ordinary British Joe Sixpack. Do they have Joe-sixpacks in England? Do they have sixpacks? The _11th Collegiate_ has "judgment" as a main entry, with "judgement" as a variant. I'm an American, but I like to spell it "judgement". "Judgment" looks almost unpronounceable to me. If I tried to pronounce it, I would probably say something like "Jew DIG a muhnt". > The _11th Collegiate_ has "judgment" as a main entry, with > "judgement" as a variant. I'm an American, but I like to > spell it "judgement". "Judgment" looks almost > unpronounceable to me. If I tried to pronounce it, I would > probably say something like "Jew DIG a muhnt". I find that I can actually pronounce [dZVdgmn_t] (I think that's it -- can never remember if the underscore comes before or after the n). I suppose it's owing to the vocalic nature of the [m] -- I don't think I could pronounce it with a stop after the [g]. > > The _11th Collegiate_ has "judgment" as a main entry, with > > "judgement" as a variant. I'm an American, but I like to > > spell it "judgement". "Judgment" looks almost > > unpronounceable to me. If I tried to pronounce it, I would > > probably say something like "Jew DIG a muhnt". > I find that I can actually pronounce [dZVdgmn_t] (I think > that's it -- can never remember if the underscore comes > before or after the n). I suppose it's owing to the > vocalic nature of the [m] -- I don't think I could > pronounce it with a stop after the [g]. Years ago, when I would come across "paradigm" in print, and before I had ever heard anyone pronounce it, I would mentally say "paradiggem". I still have a tendency to think "encyclo pay EE dia" when I see "encyclopaedia". >Do they have Joe-sixpacks in England? Do they have >sixpacks? Joe-sixpacks - not as far as I know Sixpack - yes, 1. E.g. Six cans or bottles of drink; 2. Strong and evident abdominal muscles. SignaturePeter Duncanson UK (posting from a.e.u) > >Do they have Joe-sixpacks in England? Do they have > >sixpacks? > Joe-sixpacks - not as far as I know > Sixpack - yes, 1. E.g. Six cans or bottles of drink; > 2. Strong and evident abdominal muscles. Interesting to see, "Joe Sixpack" -- as a US usage -- has found its way into _The New Shorter Oxford_: six- pack - colloq. a package containing six units, esp. six cans of beer (Joe six-pack (US), (a nickname for) a hypothetical average man); It doesn't have the abs definition for "sixpack", though. I wonder if that's in the current _Oxford English Dictionary_. I hadn't encountered it before now, but it seems to be a quite effective graphic analogy. I've just now seen (in _NSOED_) the term "Joe Bloggs" for the first time I can remember. It seems to have been the UK equivalent of the American "Joe Blow", which was an earlier way of saying "Joe Sixpack". Then there's "Joe Public", which I would think of as an upper-register equivalent of "Joe Blow" or "Joe Bloggs". By the way, I find it interesting to see _NSOED_ using nested parens (in the "Joe-sixpack" definition I've quoted). We used to be taught to use a sequence of brackets like {[(...)]}, then along came Fortran and made paren nesters out of a lot of us. >By the way, I find it interesting to see _NSOED_ using >nested parens (in the "Joe-sixpack" definition I've quoted). >We used to be taught to use a sequence of brackets like >{[(...)]}, then along came Fortran and made paren nesters >out of a lot of us. Then LISP came along a few years later and made some of us hate nested parentheses. Best regards, Spehro Pefhany Signature"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com >> >Do they have Joe-sixpacks in England? Do they have >> >sixpacks? [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >I hadn't encountered it before now, but it seems to be a >quite effective graphic analogy. The abs version is in frequent use in the UK. The New Oxford Dictionary of English has it. >I've just now seen (in _NSOED_) the term "Joe Bloggs" for >the first time I can remember. It seems to have been the UK [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >{[(...)]}, then along came Fortran and made paren nesters >out of a lot of us. SignaturePeter Duncanson UK (posting from a.e.u) > Interesting to see, "Joe Sixpack" -- as a US usage -- has > found its way into _The New Shorter Oxford_: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > It doesn't have the abs definition for "sixpack", though. I > wonder if that's in the current _Oxford English Dictionary_. It is in the on-line edition, labeled "Advance release of additional material" - from which I guess that it's not yet in any print edition. The entry is: : six-pack, (b) colloq., a set of well-developed abdominal muscles; a lean, : muscular midriff. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] : stomach the 'six-pack' look, as it is divided up by three horizontal : fibrous bands which, when body fat is very low, will show up. > Then there's "Joe Public", which I would think of as an > upper-register equivalent of "Joe Blow" or "Joe Bloggs". I only know him as "John Public". Actually, only by his full name "John Q. Public". Hmm... it seems to me that "John" is used as the default - how shall I say - name for a man who is respectable or important ("John Q. Public", whose opinion shapes society; "John Doe", originally a court defendant IIRC), while "Joe" is used for someone who is being treated with familiarity or even disdain: "Joe Sixpack", "Joe Blow", "Joe Shmo", "average Joe". I wonder why this is. > By the way, I find it interesting to see _NSOED_ using > nested parens (in the "Joe-sixpack" definition I've quoted). > We used to be taught to use a sequence of brackets like > {[(...)]}, then along came Fortran and made paren nesters > out of a lot of us. I thought what we were taught (in English usage) was to use a sequence of brackets like ([{...}]) - i.e., the opposite of the one you list. I try to avoid nested brackets in writing, though, so I could be mistaken. -Aaron J. Dinkin Dr. Whom >> > > I see that Ross Howard had found the EU English >> > > style guide. It is based Br/Ir spelling. [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >unpronounceable to me. If I tried to pronounce it, I would >probably say something like "Jew DIG a muhnt". I was taught years ago that putting in the "e" was a UK thing, and in US usage the word is always without the "e." But my Oxford Universal (1955), gives "judgment" as a second spelling, and includes an e-less quote from Cowper, so the variant has been around in England for a while. AHD4 gives "judgement" as a second spelling. From these two sources, I get the feeling that prevalent usage varies as I was taught, but nobody is going to have a fit on either side of the ocean whichever way you spell it. What English lawyers do is no concern of mine; I have enough trouble with American lawyers. It's such a common word (Judgment Day) that I never gave a thought to the pronunciation. In my experience, almost any word gets really weird if you look at it long enough. Carter Jefferson carterj98@mindspring.com http://carterj.homestead.com/ >I was taught years ago that putting in the "e" was a UK thing, and in >US usage the word is always without the "e." QUOTE from Paul Brians http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~brians/errors/judgement.html In Great Britain and many of its former colonies, "judgement" is still the correct spelling; but ever since Noah Webster decreed the first E superfluous, Americans have omitted it. Many of Webster's crotchets have faded away (each year fewer people use the spelling "theater," for instance); but even the producers of Terminator 2: Judgment Day, chose the traditional American spelling. If you write "judgement" you should also write "colour" and "tyre." END QUOTE There's an entertaining webpage (http://www.geocities.com/rwh5a/judgment/z) which claims that there's an insurgency of people trying to insert the first e into "judgment." It "consists of uninformed individuals, bad spellers, stupid people, and [is rumored to contain] Communists, social outcasts, Vegetarians, and Californians." The author attempted to gain credibility by quoting John Dean, even though the quote is unrelated to the premise of the page. >But my Oxford Universal (1955), gives "judgment" as a second spelling, >and includes an e-less quote from Cowper, so the variant has been [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >lawyers do is no concern of mine; I have enough trouble with American >lawyers. A previous job brought me into contact with the lower courts in the State of Wyoming. I saw "judgment" spelled with and without the first "e." --- Mike Bandy >> > > I see that Ross Howard had found the EU English >> > > style guide. It is based Br/Ir spelling. [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >unpronounceable to me. If I tried to pronounce it, I would >probably say something like "Jew DIG a muhnt". Collins (UK) gives judgment as the main entry, with judgement as an alternative (AmE=alternate). No indication that either is peculiarly British or American. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk hayesmstw@hotmail.com (Steve Hayes) wrote on 04 Dec 2003: [...] > Collins (UK) gives judgment as the main entry, with judgement as > an alternative (AmE=alternate). > > No indication that either is peculiarly British or American. All British medical journals that demand UK spellings add the "e" before "ment" in words like "judgement" and "acknowledgement", but journals that use American spelling delete this "e". Collins Cobuild 6 Advanced Learner's Dictionary says "(BRIT) also judgement" at the end of all 7 entries (1st and last only below): judgment 1 judgment judgments A judgment is an opinion that you have or express after thinking carefully about something. In your judgment, what has changed over the past few years?. How can he form any judgement of the matter without the figures?. I don't really want to make any judgments on the decisions they made. N-VAR (BRIT) also judgement [...] 7 judgment To sit in judgment means to decide whether or not someone is guilty of doing something wrong. He argues very strongly that none of us has the right to sit in judgement. PHR: V inflects (BRIT) also judgement (c) HarperCollins Publishers. SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor. > hayesmstw@hotmail.com (Steve Hayes) wrote on 04 Dec 2003: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > before "ment" in words like "judgement" and "acknowledgement", but > journals that use American spelling delete this "e". I was taught at school that 'judgment' was the Cambridge preference, while Oxford preferred 'judgement'. Certainly there used to be various editorial differences between the two University presses (e.g. Cambridge used lower-case for "king Richard II" or 'the lord chancellor'). The usual BrE non-legal spelling nowadays seems to be with the 'e', presumably because so many British publishers use the OUP house rules. (I've just run this note through the Windows BrE spell checker, and both spellings escaped unnoticed.) Alan Jones "Alan Jones" <atj@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote on 04 Dec 2003: >> hayesmstw@hotmail.com (Steve Hayes) wrote on 04 Dec 2003: >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > spelling nowadays seems to be with the 'e', presumably because so > many British publishers use the OUP house rules. I wasn't aware of this difference. In medical English, there are many words that are different between US and UK English, for example, "fetus" and "foetus", "hematology" and haematology", just to name two types. And, of course, words like "color" and "colour". > (I've just run this note through the Windows BrE spell checker, > and both spellings escaped unnoticed.) I've just checked the AmE spellchecker for Word, and it also passes both words. SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor. [...] > The _11th Collegiate_ has "judgment" as a main entry, with > "judgement" as a variant. I'm an American, but I like to > spell it "judgement". "Judgment" looks almost > unpronounceable to me. If I tried to pronounce it, I would > probably say something like "Jew DIG a muhnt". According to the rules used by the editors of the Collegiate for listing variants, there is almost no significance to "judgment" being listed first. On page 11a, the example is given of "pollywog" preceding "polliwog," connected by the word "or." Since they are out of alphabetical order--as is also the case with "judgment _or_ judgement"--the second member of the pair occurs slightly less often than the first member of the pair, but they are equally standard and in this case the editors would also call them equal variants, just as they would have if the variants had instead been listed in alphabetical order and connected by "or." Just as an item of interest: My spelling checker for Outlook Express, which is the same as that for Microsoft Works, doesn't blink an eye over either "pollywog" or "polliwog," but it doesn't care for "judgement." The same is true of the spelling checker for Yahoo! Mail. SignatureRaymond S. Wise Minneapolis, Minnesota USA E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com > Americans are divided on how to spell "judgement/judgment." I take it by > your comment that Britons are not. In USA _usage_, "judgement" is clearly in the majority. But as far as I have seen, "prescriptive" texts over here unanimously demand "judgment." SignatureWes Groleau Nobody believes a theoretical analysis -- except the guy who did it. Everybody believes an experimental analysis -- except the guy who did it. -- Unknown >> Americans are divided on how to spell "judgement/judgment." I take >> it by your comment that Britons are not. > > In USA _usage_, "judgement" is clearly in the majority. That is not what MWCD10 found, as they show "judgment" as the more common form with "judgement" as the variant. SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) www.geocities.com/opus731/ > >> Americans are divided on how to spell "judgement/judgment." I > >> take it by your comment that Britons are not. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > That is not what MWCD10 found, as they show "judgment" as the more > common form with "judgement" as the variant. MWDEU says Our own most recent evidence shows _judgment_ leading _judgement_ in American sources by a ratio of about 2 to 1. Our British evidence has _judgement_ out in front by about 3 to to. This evidence does not constitute a perfect, scientific sampling of current usage, but it does show clearly that both spellings are in reputable use on both sides of the Atlantic. It also supports the general observation that _judgment_ is more common in the U.S. and _judgement_ more common in Britain. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |The body was wrapped in duct tape, 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |weighted down with concrete blocks Palo Alto, CA 94304 |and a telephone cord was tied |around the neck. Police suspect kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |foul play... (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > > >> Americans are divided on how to spell "judgement/judgment." I > > >> take it by your comment that Britons are not. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > general observation that _judgment_ is more common in the U.S. and > _judgement_ more common in Britain. As an American lawyer, I see "judgment" almost invariably -- AUE (and some British publications) aside, of course. Most lawyers I know will delete the central "e" if they come upon "judgement" while editing. My own proofreading eye registers "judgement" as wrong. Gerald Ford, briefly our president, pronounced it "judge-@-ment," and the schwa was clearly audible. For all I know, he still pronounces it that way. I've never heard that from anyone else anywhere. SignatureBob Lieblich And that's my judgment on that > Gerald Ford, briefly our president, pronounced it "judge-@-ment," > and the schwa was clearly audible. For all I know, he still > pronounces it that way. I've never heard that from anyone else > anywhere. And Reagan went to the same school I think: Remember "gummint" for government. And then there was Kennedy with Cuber, Alasker, Califawnyer. -YJ > > Americans are divided on how to spell "judgement/judgment." I take it by > > your comment that Britons are not. > > In USA _usage_, "judgement" is clearly in the majority. > But as far as I have seen, "prescriptive" texts over here > unanimously demand "judgment." Well, Wes, we travel in different circles and read different newspapers I guess. As I mentioned earlier, I think it's in the minority. But that's just my humble opinion based on experience. YMMV -Yukon Jack > > > I see that Ross Howard had found the EU English style guide. It is based > > > Br/Ir spelling. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Americans are divided on how to spell "judgement/judgment." I take it by > your comment that Britons are not. Actually what I've seen is that the former was taught to New Englanders from CT northward. It's also a spelling that's scattered about as a minority spelling throughout the rest of the US. I will remember the correct spelling as that word dropped me out of a school-wide spelling bee ages ago when I spelled it with the middle e. -YJ > > > > I see that Ross Howard had found the EU English style guide. It is based > > > > Br/Ir spelling. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > correct spelling as that word dropped me out of a school-wide spelling > bee ages ago when I spelled it with the middle e. The judge who judged "judgement" wrong was wrong. He or she may have been unaware of the concept of spellings having standard variants. It would be difficult or impossible to find a current dictionary which did not have "judgement" as a standard spelling. Even *The Century Dictionary* of 1895 has it, although I see that Noah Webster didn't list it in his 1828 dictionary, and the 1913 Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary doesn't have it. SignatureRaymond S. Wise Minneapolis, Minnesota USA E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com > > > > > I see that Ross Howard had found the EU English style guide. It is > based [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > dictionary, and the 1913 Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary doesn't > have it. Today I checked Webster's 2nd, (C) 1934. For the word "judgment" it began the entry "judg'ment, judge'ment." SignatureRaymond S. Wise Minneapolis, Minnesota USA E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com > > I see that Ross Howard had found the EU English style guide. It is based > > Br/Ir spelling. > > But for the idiosyncratic/ American "judgment" (no middle "e"). .. and the poor advice on -ize/-ise, where the OED (and The Times, before Murdoch) prefers -ize for the majority of words but -ise for certain others. Still, I suppose getting it right would be too much to expect of the EU. Cheers, Daniel. >> > I see that Ross Howard had found the EU English style guide. It is based >> > Br/Ir spelling. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Still, I suppose getting it right would be too much to expect of the EU. What makes one newspaper and one publisher (OUP) "right" and all the rest of the country wrong? The British and Irish governments use "-ise" in their own documents, as do all the broadsheets, so it's quite logical that this style should be followed in EU documents in English. The advice is fine. Recommending "-ize" would be to fly in the face of conventional usage. -- Ross Howard > [I wrote] > >.. and the poor advice on -ize/-ise, where the OED (and The Times, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > What makes one newspaper and one publisher (OUP) "right" and all the > rest of the country wrong? I didn't say that "-ise" was wrong, I said that advising everyone to use "-ise" rather than "-ize" indiscriminately was "poor advice". The arguments for "-ize" have been given here before, and are explained quite well by Fowler -- it all boils down to the conventional transliteration of Greek Zeta in English. This argument applies only to those words which are formed by adding an -ize ending in the Greek way, however, and other words should properly be spelt -ise. Widespread usage has lent legitimacy to the "-ise" spellings, so that they are now "accepted", if not "preferred". The advantage of this spelling is that one can spell (almost) all words ending in that sound the same way without having to think, and without using "unacceptable" spelling. One might hope, however, that in learned or formal writing the writers would strive to use "preferred" spellings, and not merely "accepted" ones. Official EU documents may not be learned (however much one may hope) but they are, at least, formal; and might be expected to require the "preferred" spelling. > The advice is fine. Recommending "-ize" would be to fly in the face of > conventional usage. THe advice may be "fine", but it should be "perfect". Conventional usage allows for both spellings, perfection admits only one. Cheers, Daniel. > One might hope, however, that in learned or formal writing the writers > would strive to use "preferred" spellings, and not merely "accepted" > ones. I use -ise because I prefer it. I accept -ize from others, with no comment. So I'm alright! Er... All right. SignatureSimon R. Hughes In alt.usage.english, Daniel James wrote: >The arguments for "-ize" have been given here before, and are explained >quite well by Fowler -- it all boils down to the conventional >transliteration of Greek Zeta in English. I don't have Fowler to hand so I can't follow up the reference, but... what does the conventional transliteration of zeta into English have to do with the way we should spell English words in the 21st century? SignatureMike Barnes Cheshire, England > I don't have Fowler to hand so I can't follow up the reference, ... In brief, the Greeks had a trick for turning a noun into a verb by adding -ize (in Greek) to the end of the word. Many -ize words in English come from Greek, and many more have been formed in English by using the same trick. Because -ize is spelt with a Zeta in Greek, and Zeta is conventionally transliterated into English as 'z', the 'z' spelling is the conventional one. Some words ending in the -ise sound were not formed in this way (e.g. in "revise" the 's' is the 's' of "vision" - we're not forming a verb by adding the -ize ending to a hypothetical noun "rev"), and these words should not be spelt with a 'z'. It makes a useful distinction. If you come across a word you don't know and it's spelt with -ize you can guess that it's a verbing of a noun root, and that may give a clue as to the meaning. If you come across a word ending in -ise, and if the writer favours the -ize suffix spellings, you know that the 's' is part of the root. > but... what does the conventional transliteration of zeta into > English have to do with the way we should spell English words in > the 21st century? Are you suggesting that as we enter a new century we should muck up all the spellings we have used for the past hundred years as a matter of course? If the -ize spelling was preferred in the 20th and earlier centuries, you need to have a better reason than a change in the date to switch to preferring something different in the 21st -- and being too lazy to learn the exceptions doesn't count! Cheers, Daniel. In alt.usage.english, Daniel James wrote: >> but... what does the conventional transliteration of zeta into >> English have to do with the way we should spell English words in [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >preferring something different in the 21st -- and being too lazy to >learn the exceptions doesn't count! It's been "-ise" for all of my lifetime (which started in the first half of the last century), and that's good enough for me. I'm not changing anything - it's others who seem to want to change me. SignatureMike Barnes Cheshire, England > It's been "-ise" for all of my lifetime (which started in the > first half of the last century), and that's good enough for me. > I'm not changing anything - it's others who seem to want to > change me. The 'preferred' spelling in the OED has been -ize, and -ise has also been accepted, for all that time, and longer. Nobody's suggesting that you should change the habit of a lifetime. I just commented that stricter standards ought to be applied to formal, official, documents, such as EU publications. Cheers, Daniel. >>I don't have Fowler to hand so I can't follow up the reference, ... > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Zeta is conventionally transliterated into English as 'z', the 'z' > spelling is the conventional one. But the vast majority of these words entered English, not from Greek, but from French, hence the -ise spelling. > Some words ending in the -ise sound were not formed in this way (e.g. > in "revise" the 's' is the 's' of "vision" - we're not forming a verb [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > word ending in -ise, and if the writer favours the -ize suffix > spellings, you know that the 's' is part of the root. Useful? I find it unnecessarily complicated. >>but... what does the conventional transliteration of zeta into >>English have to do with the way we should spell English words in [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > preferring something different in the 21st -- and being too lazy to > learn the exceptions doesn't count! You've lost me here. Who claims the -ize spelling was preferred (outside America) in the 20th century? SignatureRob Bannister >But the vast majority of these words entered English, not from Greek, >but from French, hence the -ise spelling. Most entering was and is spellingless, shoorly. SignaturePaul My Lake District walking site (updated 29th September 2003): http://paulrooney.netfirms.com Please sponsor me for the London Marathon at: http://www.justgiving.com/london2004 >>But the vast majority of these words entered English, not from Greek, >>but from French, hence the -ise spelling. > > Most entering was and is spellingless, shoorly. I would doubt that. I assume most of these types of word came through the world of administration, finance and religion and were written down by clerics in numerous records. This is how a great deal of officialese enters our language today - the written form precedes the spoken. SignatureRob Bannister > But the vast majority of these words entered English, not from Greek, > but from French, hence the -ise spelling. Many of these woirds enetered the /spoken/ language from French, yes, but how we spelt them was our business. The -ize and -ise spellings were once both common in English (equally so? I couldn't say). Many other words have only gained their -ize endings after the noun itself has become accepted in English - a lot of computer-related terms like "initialize", "digitize", "randomize", etc., fall into this category - and are spelt with 'z' because that is the preferred spelling of the -ize suffix. > You've lost me here. Who claims the -ize spelling was preferred > (outside America) in the 20th century? Fowler and the OED (and The Times, until Murdoch). Cheers, Daniel. >>But the vast majority of these words entered English, not from Greek, >>but from French, hence the -ise spelling. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Fowler and the OED (and The Times, until Murdoch). Well, that is very strange, since I lived in England from 1940-1971 and never saw the -ize spelling except in American publications. I have to admit that I did not read The Times. SignatureRob Bannister >>>You've lost me here. Who claims the -ize spelling was preferred >>>(outside America) in the 20th century? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >never saw the -ize spelling except in American publications. I have to >admit that I did not read The Times. And obviously you didn't read any books published by OUP, which still uses it, along with some other UK publishers. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >>>>You've lost me here. Who claims the -ize spelling was preferred >>>>(outside America) in the 20th century? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > And obviously you didn't read any books published by OUP, which still uses it, > along with some other UK publishers. I must admit I thought OUP had changed recently in line with the Oxford Dictionary's pronouncement. More likely, I don't even notice with the vast majority of words - I think 'advertize' would jar, but most don't. I think it is unlikely I shall change my spelling habits now, although I did adopt American spellings for computing terms: I find it vaguely useful to have a semantic difference between eg programme and program, disc and disk, etc. SignatureRob Bannister >> And obviously you didn't read any books published by OUP, which still uses it, >> along with some other UK publishers. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >useful to have a semantic difference between eg programme and program, >disc and disk, etc. I adopted the -ise spelling for most of my writing because it's not worth the effort to fight with Microsoft's spelling checker, which insists on it, though I actually prefer -ize. But Bill Gates rules, so what can one do? SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > I find it vaguely > useful to have a semantic difference between eg programme and program, > disc and disk, etc. There is no difference except spelling for the former pair, but for the life of me, I have no idea how "disk" became popular in the late 60s and 70s to refer to disk drives, yet today removable optical discs are spelled as "disc" was originally spelt. So there is a difference between "disk" and "disc." And farmers still disc their fields. -YJ > I have no idea how "disk" became popular in the late 60s > and 70s to refer to disk drives ... I first came acros the "disk" spelling in the early '70s when I studied astronomy for a while. I was surprised to see that Patrick Moore, in his book "Astromomy for O Level" (no, I didn't take astronomy O Level, but it was the best book around at its level) consistently spelt "disk" with a 'k'. I continued to use the 'c' spelling until floppy discs came to be known as "diskettes", as which point it seemed absurd and I stopped! [One cannot write "discette" without inviting the pronunciation "dishett" - as an Italian might say it (might say "discette", that is, the Italian for "disk" is "disco"); and I cannot for the life of me persuade anyone to adopt the eminently sensible "disquette".] Cheers, Daniel. >> I find it vaguely >> useful to have a semantic difference between eg programme and program, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >spelled as "disc" was originally spelt. So there is a difference >between "disk" and "disc." And farmers still disc their fields. The name "Compact Disc" is a trademark (or somesuch) belonging to the Philips electronics company of the Netherlands - the originator of the CD format. Later developments based on that technology (including DVD) inherit the Disc spelling in their names. http://www.licensing.philips.com/ SignaturePeter Duncanson UK (posting from a.e.u) > >> I find it vaguely > >> useful to have a semantic difference between eg programme and program, [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > the Disc spelling in their names. > http://www.licensing.philips.com/ From the usage note to the entry "compact disk" in the AHD4, at http://www.bartleby.com/61/16/C0521600.html [quote] In the 1940s, [...] when American computer scientists needed a term to refer to their flat storage devices, they chose the spelling _disk,_ and this became conventionalized in such compounds as _hard disk_ and _floppy disk._ When the new storage technology of the compact disk arose in the 1970s, both _c-_ and _k-_spellings competed for an initial period. Computer specialists preferred the familiar _k-_spelling, while people in the music industry, who saw the shiny circular plates as another form of phonograph record, referred to them as _compact discs._ These tendencies soon became established practice in the different industries. This is why we buy compact disks in computer stores but get the same storage devices with different data as compact discs in music stores. Similarly, the computer industry created the _optical disk,_ the format that the entertainment industry used to create the _videodisc._ [end quote] I had a heck of a time finding either "disk" or "disk" on my package of "TDK Data CD-R for computer burning." Finally, in tiny letters on a statement inside the package, I found the following statement: "This disc has been produced in accordance with Orange Book Part II standards." I see that the Microsoft spell-checker used by Outlook Espress suggests "videodisk" as a replacement for "videodisc." SignatureRaymond S. Wise Minneapolis, Minnesota USA E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com >From the usage note to the entry "compact disk" in the AHD4, at >http://www.bartleby.com/61/16/C0521600.html [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >[end quote] The compilers of AHD4 seem to be unaware of, or ignoring, the standards and trademark (etc.) issues. Of course the above definition might just be reflecting uninformed spelling. [1] http://wombat.doc.ic.ac.uk/foldoc/foldoc.cgi?query=compact+disc <quote> Compact Disc (CD) (Not "disk", this spelling is part of the standard). A 4.72 inch disc developed by Sony and Philips that can store, on the same disc, still and/or moving images in monochrome and/or color; stereo or two separate sound tracks integrated with and/or separate from the images; and digital program and information files. The same fabrication process is used to make both audio CDs and CD-ROMs for storing computer data, the only difference is in the device used to read the CD (the player or drive). </quote> On the other hand Magneto-Optical storage media are 'Disks' because that is spelling used in the standards document. Standard Ecma-183 Data Interchange on 130 mm Optical Disk Cartridges - Capacity: 1 Gigabyte per Cartridge http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-183.htm >I had a heck of a time finding either "disk" or "disk" on my package of "TDK >Data CD-R for computer burning." Finally, in tiny letters on a statement [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >I see that the Microsoft spell-checker used by Outlook Espress suggests >"videodisk" as a replacement for "videodisc." [1] My use of 'uninformed' does not imply any form of judg[e]ment or criticism. SignaturePeter Duncanson UK (posting from a.e.u) > I think 'advertize' would jar ... It certainly would! "Advertise" has it's origin in "advertisement" which comes to us through the French "avertissement". It's not formed using an "-ize" suffix and should *never* be spelt with a 'z'. Cheers, Daniel >> I think 'advertize' would jar ... > >It certainly would! "Advertise" has it's origin in "advertisement" >which comes to us through the French "avertissement". It's not formed >using an "-ize" suffix and should *never* be spelt with a 'z'. That is the argument for using the -ise spellings more generally - it means that one doesn't have to remember which words *must* be spelt with -ise, like advertise, televise, exercise, circumcise, despise. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >>>But the vast majority of these words entered English, not from Greek, >>>but from French, hence the -ise spelling. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >never saw the -ize spelling except in American publications. I have to >admit that I did not read The Times. It's true. I've taken the Times since I was 17 (nearly 5 decades), when I was living in places where I could get it, and they did prefer the 'ize' spelling. At school I was (incorrectly) taught that 'ise' was British and 'ize' American, and this seemed to be confirmed from reading books by American authors. I was well into my teens before I even saw an OED and learned that they are often valid alternatives, and in my 40s before I was aware of Fowler and the 'ise' and 'ize' derivations. It matters little, for I was well conditioned, and 'ize' sets my teeth on edge to this day. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England > I was well conditioned, and 'ize' sets my teeth on edge to this day. What? After all that messing around in the hospital, you have your own teeth? You have nothing to complain about. SignatureSimon R. Hughes >Read the words between "countries" and "yet" again. I'm talking about >reams of reports addressed to Eurocrats that talk about "business >centers" and "inner-city neighborhoods". Blame Microsoft WORD's spell checker %-{ SignatureDave OSOS#24 dswindell.gerbil@tcp.co.uk Remove my gerbil for email replies Yamaha XJ900S & Wessex sidecar, the sexy one Yamaha XJ900F & Watsonian Monaco, the comfortable one http://dswindell.members.beeb.net > What miffs me is the number of texts I see produced in English in EU > countries for EU consumption yet with American spelling. What sort of spelling should they use? There's no "European English" (so far) and AmE is a kind of international standard or so do I think. >>What miffs me is the number of texts I see produced in English in EU >>countries for EU consumption yet with American spelling. > > What sort of spelling should they use? There's no "European English" (so > far) and AmE is a kind of international standard or so do I think. Um, which continent do you think England, Scotland and Ireland are in? SignatureRob Bannister >>>What miffs me is the number of texts I see produced in English in EU >>>countries for EU consumption yet with American spelling. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Um, which continent do you think England, Scotland and Ireland are in? We're incontinent. Same for the Welsh. SignaturePaul My Lake District walking site (updated 29th September 2003): http://paulrooney.netfirms.com Please sponsor me for the London Marathon at: http://www.justgiving.com/london2004 > >Um, which continent do you think England, Scotland and Ireland are in? > > We're incontinent. > Same for the Welsh. Must be because of the leeks. >>>>What miffs me is the number of texts I see produced in English in EU >>>>countries for EU consumption yet with American spelling. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > We're incontinent. > Same for the Welsh. Keep your knickers on. SignatureRob Bannister > >>What miffs me is the number of texts I see produced in English in EU > >>countries for EU consumption yet with American spelling. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Um, which continent do you think England, Scotland and Ireland are in? And, presumably, Wales? <bg> Well, I can't speak for Ireland or Scotland, but a very large number of British with whom I worked in the 80s and 90s always made the distinction between the British Isles and continental Europe - as in "The Europeans will be visiting today." However, this might just be the culture of the businesses I was visiting. -YJ Jack@KTEH.com spake thus: > > >>What miffs me is the number of texts I see produced in English in EU > > >>countries for EU consumption yet with American spelling. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > "The Europeans will be visiting today." However, this might just be > the culture of the businesses I was visiting. That is standard. "Europe" is another one of those words which has two different meanings, but we manage to cope. It means both the continent of Europe, including GB and the island of Ireland, and it also means "continental Europe". Context tells us what is meant. In the same way, people in Cornwall consider "England" to be another place. They "go to England". SignatureDavid ===== > Well, I can't speak for Ireland or Scotland, but a very large number of > British with whom I worked in the 80s and 90s always made the > distinction between the British Isles and continental Europe - as in > "The Europeans will be visiting today." Ah yes, like the classic newspaper headline "Fog In The Channel, Europe Cut Off" In alt.usage.english, NRK wrote: >Ah yes, like the classic newspaper headline "Fog In The Channel, Europe >Cut Off" A perfectly reasonable headline. Britons - the people reading the newspaper - were indeed from [mainland] Europe cut off. And if it had been '... Britain Cut Off' it would have been less clear from where (or even what) Britons were cut off, because it's possible that some readers might not have known what lay on the other side of the Channel. See? _The Independent_, of course, would have given it as 'Thick cloud of minute water-droplets limits visibility in The Channel, renders navigation unwise: European mainland unreachable at present'. SignatureMickwick > In alt.usage.english, NRK wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > A perfectly reasonable headline. Britons - the people reading the > newspaper - were indeed from [mainland] Europe cut off. From the same sub-editor who used to work for the Isle of Wight Guardian and produce headlines like 'Fog in Solent - England Cut Off'. His cousin worked for the Corriere del Messina and was remembered for 'Fog in Strait of Messina - Italy cut off'. Both were said to be envious of the sub at the Istanbul Mercury who was able to splash 'Fog in Bosporus - Turkey cut off'. -- John Dean Oxford De-frag to reply > > In alt.usage.english, NRK wrote: > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Messina - Italy cut off'. Both were said to be envious of the sub at the > Istanbul Mercury who was able to splash 'Fog in Bosporus - Turkey cut off'. And, for fog on the Tyne...? Mike. >>> In alt.usage.english, NRK wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > And, for fog on the Tyne...? It's all yours. m. >>> In alt.usage.english, NRK wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > And, for fog on the Tyne...? All mine, all mine -- John Dean Oxford De-frag to reply > From the same sub-editor who used to work for the Isle of Wight > Guardian and produce headlines like 'Fog in Solent - England Cut > Off'. His cousin worked for the Corriere del Messina and was > remembered for 'Fog in Strait of Messina - Italy cut off'. Both were > said to be envious of the sub at the Istanbul Mercury who was able to > splash 'Fog in Bosporus - Turkey cut off'. If you get close enough, you might be able to carve out an image of the shoreline, though. SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) www.geocities.com/opus731/ >In alt.usage.english, NRK wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >minute water-droplets limits visibility in The Channel, renders >navigation unwise: European mainland unreachable at present'. More likely "Fog in Channel prevents Robert Fisk in Baghdad dispatching his latest reports of American and British atrocities." Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England In alt.usage.english, Dr Robin Bignall wrote: >More likely "Fog in Channel prevents Robert Fisk in Baghdad dispatching his >latest reports of American and British atrocities." 'Fog in Channel, End of the World Postponed'. SignatureMickwick "NRK" <junk@kimber.org> wrote... > > Well, I can't speak for Ireland or Scotland, but a very large number > > of British with whom I worked in the 80s and 90s always made the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Ah yes, like the classic newspaper headline "Fog In The Channel, > Europe Cut Off" It would be rather useful to find the original of this "headline". Any suggestions? Matti > "NRK" <junk@kimber.org> wrote... > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > It would be rather useful to find the original of this "headline". Any > suggestions? Is "rather useful" more useful than "quite useful"? <ducks> SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) > > Ah yes, like the classic newspaper headline "Fog In The Channel, > > Europe Cut Off" > > It would be rather useful to find the original of this "headline". > Any suggestions? Is there something called the channel headline, concerning which you want to know the origin of the fog found within it? If not, I would use hyphens, thus: Re: Origin of Fog-in-Channel headline. Mike Hardy > "NRK" <junk@kimber.org> wrote... > > > Well, I can't speak for Ireland or Scotland, but a very large number [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > It would be rather useful to find the original of this "headline". Any > suggestions? Google. http://static.elibrary.com/n/newstatesmanampsociety/march241995/foginthechannele uropecutoffinsularityofbritishpres/index.html "Alan Illeman" <illemann@surfbest.net> wrote... > Matti Lamprhey <matti-nospam@totally-official.com> wrote... > > "NRK" <junk@kimber.org> wrote... [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Google. http://static.elibrary.com/n/newstatesmanampsociety/march241995/foginthechannele uropecutoffinsularityofbritishpres/index.html I've googled already, and browsed sites and groups such as alt.folklore.urban and snopes.com. All I find is the sort of thing you've come up with there -- nothing authoritative, different wording, different publications, different eras. I suspect that there was no such headline, and that it was always a joke. Matti > "Alan Illeman" <illemann@surfbest.net> wrote... > > Matti Lamprhey <matti-nospam@totally-official.com> wrote... [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > different publications, different eras. I suspect that there was no > such headline, and that it was always a joke. Seems that it was published in 'The Times' but you'll need a subscription to search the archives. http://www.innovation.ch/company/switzerland.htm British view of "Europe". (Remember the quote "Fog in the channel, Europe cutoff" which was once a headline in the "Times") http://www.thisismoney.com/20030616/nm64278_s.html We have come a long way since the infamous Times headline of the 1930s: 'Fog in the Channel: Continent Isolated.' http://www.turkishdailynews.com/past_probe/03_10_02/opinion.htm .. phrase used once in a London Times banner headline analogous to this case, "Fog in the channel: the Continent is isolated," http://www.thisisoxfordshire.co.uk/oxfordshire/archive/2002/04/04/BUSI1ZM.html "It reminds me of an old headline in The Times: 'Fog in the Channel, Europe cut off'." > "Alan Illeman" <illemann@surfbest.net> wrote... >> Matti Lamprhey <matti-nospam@totally-official.com> wrote... [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> >> Google. http://static.elibrary.com/n/newstatesmanampsociety/march241995/foginthechan neleuropecutoffinsularityofbritishpres/index.html > I've googled already, and browsed sites and groups such as > alt.folklore.urban and snopes.com. All I find is the sort of thing > you've come up with there -- nothing authoritative, different wording, > different publications, different eras. I suspect that there was no > such headline, and that it was always a joke. I'm inclined to agree. Not because I don't think there were people in editorial positions in the media who saw the UK and Europe as separate entities - there were and still are. But because a) whose first thought on seeing Channel fog would be 'Oh bugger, Europe's cut-off'? Or second, third or squillionth thought? and b) if mainland Europe *were* cut off, who would care enough to splash it as a headline? because c) no-one would imagine that the Clapham Omnibus Passengerati would be inclined to leap off the bus in order to buy a paper sporting such a headline. -- John Dean Oxford De-frag to reply > ... Clapham Omnibus Passengerati ... The /Clapham Omnes/, one might almost say! Cheers, Daniel. > "Alan Illeman" <illemann@surfbest.net> wrote... > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > different publications, different eras. I suspect that there was no > such headline, and that it was always a joke. This whole thread keeps reminding of that housekeeper character in "As Time Goes By". SignatureRob Bannister In alt.usage.english, Matti Lamprhey wrote: >"NRK" <junk@kimber.org> wrote... >> Ah yes, like the classic newspaper headline "Fog In The Channel, >> Europe Cut Off" > >It would be rather useful to find the original of this "headline". Any >suggestions? This lecture http://casnov1.cas.muohio.edu/havighurstcenter/papers/inaug.pdf says that it was in The Times and that the original wording was 'Thick fog blankets the Channel: Europe cut off'. SignatureMickwick "Mickwick" <mickwick@use.reply.to> wrote... > In alt.usage.english, Matti Lamprhey wrote: > >"NRK" <junk@kimber.org> wrote... [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > says that it was in The Times and that the original wording was 'Thick > fog blankets the Channel: Europe cut off'. See my response just now to Alan Ileman. I want a publication and a date. Until I get that I'm continuing to doubt that the headline ever existed outside a comedian's head. Matti In alt.usage.english, Matti Lamprhey wrote: >See my response just now to Alan Ileman. I want a publication and a >date. Until I get that I'm continuing to doubt that the headline ever >existed outside a comedian's head. Good for you! (We'll make a Eurosceptic out of you yet.) The headline has been circulating for so long that I can vaguely 'see' a facsimile of it, complete with an engraving of a packet boat. I'm almost certain that this is a false memory because the packet boat is steaming happily along with no more than a few clouds in the sky. All the same, such memories are very insistent and I've just riffled through a few books and only a great deal of will-power is preventing me riffling through the rest of them. I *know* the facsimile isn't there but I am *driven* to look for it. Maddening. SignatureMickwick > In alt.usage.english, Matti Lamprhey wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > riffling through the rest of them. I *know* the facsimile isn't there > but I am *driven* to look for it. Maddening. I recognize the feeling. But let's not underestimate the willingness of newspapers to print joke headlines: I rather doubt it of the Times in those advertisements-on-the-front-page days, though. Mike. >> In alt.usage.english, Matti Lamprhey wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >of newspapers to print joke headlines: I rather doubt it of the Times >in those advertisements-on-the-front-page days, though. I've been taking The Times since long before that change, and I don't remember it. But that means nothing, of course. Most of the time I lived in France one could only get yesterday's Times if one drove to the Champs Elysees, and since I listened to the BBC, I wasn't interested enough in yesterday's news to do so. If it happened while I was here, I would have had a chuckle but assumed that it was not original. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England >>> In alt.usage.english, Matti Lamprhey wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >yesterday's news to do so. If it happened while I was here, I would have >had a chuckle but assumed that it was not original. ?? That edition of The Times would not have got to France because of the fog. SignaturePeter Duncanson UK (posting from a.e.u) > "NRK" <junk@kimber.org> wrote... > > > Well, I can't speak for Ireland or Scotland, but a very large number [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > It would be rather useful to find the original of this "headline". Any > suggestions? I knew the answer to this. I wrote a piece in the Daily Telegraph a year or so ago, opening with the quote, and being a good little columnist, I thought it was the right thing to do to discover the correct wording and the origin. But I'm buggered if I can find a copy of my piece. What I do remember was that it was *not* a newspaper headline, but a cartoon in Punch, late 1940s, where the words were found on one of those newspaper placards sitting next to a street vendor ... memory surfaces of "Morny Stennet, Morny Stennet ..." The cartoonist normally specialised in motoring cartoons, I think he's still alive and in his mid to late-80s, but I can't remember his name. It's way past my bedtime, but I'll try to track down the details in the morning (later in the morning, that is). Philip Eden > "Matti Lamprhey" <matti-nospam@totally-official.com> wrote in message > > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > surfaces of "Morny Stennet, Morny Stennet ..." The cartoonist > normally specialised in motoring cartoons ... Got'im. Russell Brockbank. pe > > "Matti Lamprhey" <matti-nospam@totally-official.com> wrote in message > > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Got'im. Russell Brockbank. I see from the Nexis archive of your column that you date Brockbank's cartoon to 1948. But Nexis also turns up the following: CHUNNELVISION, By William Grimes New York Times, Sep 16, 1990 On a wall in the office of Alastair Morton, Eurotunnel's British deputy chairman and chief executive, hangs one of Britain's most famous newspaper front pages: a copy of The Daily Mirror from 1930 with the headline "Fog in Channel: Continent Cut Off" - not Britain, proud in her splendid isolation, but the Continent. One last shout and we're there: Sir Alastair Morton The Times (London), May 6, 1994 He also has the famous "Fog in Channel Continent Cut Off" headline from the Daily Mirror in 1930. England and France, Now a Train Trip New York Times, May 7, 1994 In some ways, such attitudes underscore Britain's "splendid isolation" as an island nation, a state of mind reflected in the 1930's headline from London's Daily Mirror: "Fog in Channel -- Continent Cut Off." On ProQuest I found corroboration that the headline (or at least the story of such a headline) is of prewar vintage, though it's attributed to the Times rather than the Mirror: Topics of The Times: Wet British Summer New York Times, Aug 29, 1936. p. 12 It is the lonely-furrow weather policy summed up in the famous London Times weather report: "Heavy fog over Channel. Continent isolated." And an editor's note in the NY Times appended to a 1947 letter to the editor recalls the headline as "Channel Fog Cuts Off Continent." If Brockbank drew his cartoon in 1948, then the headline had already reached apocryphal status by that time. Hmm, from a check on the (London) Times archives, it looks like the anecdote goes back even earlier: Letters to the Editor: A Venerable Chestnut The Times (London), Nov 03, 1939; pg. 9 A little over a year ago I remember telling to an amusing little German in Berlin the venerable chestnut about our insularity which alleges that in the eighties of the last century there appeared the following heading in the columns of your newspaper: "Dense Fog in Channel: Continent Isolated for Three Days." The archives reveal no such Times headline in the 1880s (or at any other time). But it's surprising that the joke might have started circulating that long ago, with ironic revivals in the '30s and '40s later taken as original creations. << [Mickwick] The headline has been circulating for so long that I can vaguely 'see' a facsimile of it, complete with an engraving of a packet boat. I'm almost certain that this is a false memory because the packet boat is steaming happily along with no more than a few clouds in the sky. All the same, such memories are very insistent and I've just riffled through a few books and only a great deal of will-power is preventing me riffling through the rest of them. I *know* the facsimile isn't there but I am *driven* to look for it. Maddening. [end quote] >> << [Ben Zimmer] I see from the Nexis archive of your column that you date Brockbank's cartoon to 1948. But Nexis also turns up the following: CHUNNELVISION, By William Grimes New York Times, Sep 16, 1990 On a wall in the office of Alastair Morton, Eurotunnel's British deputy chairman and chief executive, hangs one of Britain's most famous newspaper front pages: a copy of The Daily Mirror from 1930 with the headline "Fog in Channel: Continent Cut Off" - not Britain, proud in her splendid isolation, but the Continent. [...] Hmm, from a check on the (London) Times archives, it looks like the anecdote goes back even earlier: Letters to the Editor: A Venerable Chestnut The Times (London), Nov 03, 1939; pg. 9 A little over a year ago I remember telling to an amusing little German in Berlin the venerable chestnut about our insularity which alleges that in the eighties of the last century there appeared the following heading in the columns of your newspaper: "Dense Fog in Channel: Continent Isolated for Three Days." The archives reveal no such Times headline in the 1880s (or at any other time). But it's surprising that the joke might have started circulating that long ago, with ironic revivals in the '30s and '40s later taken as original creations. [end quote] >> I feel almost certain that I have seen a copy of that newspaper page, along with Mickwick and that reporter in the office. Hadn't thought about it being manufactured. (Note to self: adjust that memory) It is an interesting story to chase -- it shows that you can't believe everything that you don't see in a newspaper. The quote is assigned to 1930s, 1920s, 1910, 1902, 1963, 1880s, 1870s, Victoria's time, mid 19th century; in newspapers Times, Daily Mirror, Daily Express, The Thunderer, Financial Times, Daily Telegraph, a signal sent from a frigate. I did find a usenet quote from alt.history.british: << [Peter Brandt Nielsen 2001-07-13] "Peter Brandt Nielsen" > There is an old story about how when the English Channel was > unnavigable a British newspaper wrote that the continent was cut > off from Great Britain and not the other way around. I have now e-mailed the Times on the matter and received this answer: "We believe the story to be apocryphal. Various archivists and librarians have sought for the headline over the years. It has never been found, either in The Times or any other paper so far as we know." [end quote] >> -- --------------------------------------------- Richard Maurer To reply, remove half Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Richard Maurer" <rcpb1_maurer@yahoo.com> wrote... > I feel almost certain that I have seen a copy of that newspaper page, > along with Mickwick and that reporter in the office. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > been found, either in The Times or any other paper so far as we know." > [end quote] >> Thanks very much to everyone who has researched and commented on this. Rather than demonstrating our insularity, it appears to demonstrate our desire to make a joke of it -- a subtle difference which will be lost to all those bloody continentals, of course. [contd. p94] Matti > > Got'im. Russell Brockbank. > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Channel: Continent Cut Off" - not Britain, proud in her > splendid isolation, but the Continent. I'm pretty sure that Morton's Mirror front page was a mock-up prepared especially for him ... a useful publicity tool for the public face of Eurotunnel. It is difficult to imagine such a story requiring front page status, let alone a headline, in any newspaper, especially not one at the lower end of the market. I'll contact my chums at the Mirror to see if they can shed more light on this. I've also checked the meteorological records for 1930 (an easy task for me) , and these reveal no notable Channel fogs. December 1930 was a very foggy month across the UK, chiefly in urban areas, but the mechanism for the formation of winter fogs on land is different from that which causes sea fog; there was no fog at all in the Channel Islands that month. <earlier references snipped> > The archives reveal no such Times headline in the 1880s (or at any other > time). But it's surprising that the joke might have started circulating > that long ago, with ironic revivals in the '30s and '40s later taken as > original creations. Assuming my assertion that Morton's front page is a fake proves correct, we still have no published headline, and it is quite possible that it is entirely apocryphal. Nevertheless, it is useful to know that the stories about an alleged headline pre-date Brockbank's cartoon certainly by over a decade, and possibly by much more. Philip Eden >> Well, I can't speak for Ireland or Scotland, but a very large number of >> British with whom I worked in the 80s and 90s always made the >> distinction between the British Isles and continental Europe - as in >> "The Europeans will be visiting today." > >Ah yes, like the classic newspaper headline "Fog In The Channel, Europe Cut Off" I saw an inland variant of that in the early 1960s. There is a small town in Hampshire, (England) called Tadley [1]. One winter the weather in the area lead to the headline in the local paper "Heavy snow - Basingstoke cut off" Basingstoke is a major town. Tadley is an overgrown village. [1] Tadley is possibly known only to its residents and neighbours, plus those involved in making the UK's nuclear weapons. SignaturePeter Duncanson UK (posting from a.e.u) >[1] Tadley is possibly known only to its residents and neighbours, plus >those involved in making the UK's nuclear weapons. And to those of us who've driven past it and speculated on its relationship, if any, to Terry Pratchett's Tadfield. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove number to reply >>> Well, I can't speak for Ireland or Scotland, but a very large number of >>> British with whom I worked in the 80s and 90s always made the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >One winter the weather in the area lead to the headline in the local paper >"Heavy snow - Basingstoke cut off" IMO, that's the best status for Basingstoke. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England |
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