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UC - 30 Oct 2006 16:14 GMT Why reproduce all that junk in translation? Consider the following text (preface) from Kant's first Kritik, 1781:
Die menschliche Vernunft hat das besondere Schicksal in einer Gattung ihrer Erkenntnisse: daß sie durch Fragen belästigt wird, die sie nicht abweisen kann; denn sie sind ihr durch die Natur der Vernunft selbst aufgegeben, die sie aber auch nicht beantworten kann; denn sie übersteigen alles Vermögen der menschlichen Vernunft.
Meiklejohm 1855: Human reason, in one sphere of its cognition, is called upon to consider questions, which it cannot decline, as they are presented by its own nature, but which it cannot answer, as they transcend every faculty of the mind.
Max Müller, 1881: OUR reason (Vernunft) has this peculiar fate that, with reference to one class of its knowledge, it is always troubled with questions which cannot be ignored, because they spring from the very nature of reason, and which cannot be answered, because they transcend the powers of human reason.
Norman Kemp Smith, 1929: HUMAN reason has this peculiar fate that in one species of its knowledge it is burdened by questions which, as prescribed by the very nature of reason itself, it is not able to ignore, but which, as transcending all its powers, it is also not able to answer.
My version: Human Reason suffers the peculiar fate, that, in one department of knowledge, it is beset by questions which it cannot set aside, as they arise from the nature of Reason itself; but these questions it cannot answer, for they transcend all the powers of our Reason.
Comment: My version has better rhythm and is less 'clunky' than the others.
In diese Verlegenheit gerät sie ohne ihre Schuld. Sie fängt von Grundsätzen an, deren Gebrauch im Laufe der Erfahrung unvermeidlich und zugleich durch diese hinreichend bewährt ist. Mit diesem steigt sie (wie es auch ihre Natur mit sich bringt) immer höher, zu entfernteren Bedingungen. Da sie aber gewahr wird, daß auf diese Art ihr Geschäft jederzeit unvollendet bleiben müsse, weil die Fragen niemals aufhören, so sieht sie sich genötigt, zu Grundsätzen ihre Zuflucht zu nehmen, die allen möglichen Erfahrungsgebrauch überschreiten und gleichwohl so unverdächtig scheinen, daß auch die gemeine Menschenvernunft damit im Einverständnisse steht. Dadurch aber stürzt sie sich in Dunkelheit und Widersprüche, aus welchen sie zwar abnehmen kann, daß irgendwo verborgene Irrtümer zum Grunde liegen müssen, die sie aber nicht entdecken kann, weil die Grundsätze, deren die sich bedient, da sie über die Grenze aller Erfahrung hinausgehen, keinen Probierstein der Erfahrung mehr anerkennen. Der Kampfplatz dieser endlosen Streitigkeiten heißt nun Metaphysik.
Meiklejohn, 1855: It falls into this difficulty without any fault of its own. It begins with principles, which cannot be dispensed with in the field of experience, and the truth and sufficiency of which are, at the same time, insured by experience. With these principles it rises, in obedience to the laws of its own nature, to ever higher and more remote conditions. But it quickly discovers that, in this way, its labours must remain ever incomplete, because new questions never cease to present themselves; and thus it finds itself compelled to have recourse to principles which transcend the region of experience, while they are regarded by common sense without distrust. It thus falls into confusion and contradictions, from which it conjectures the presence of latent errors, which, however, it is unable to discover, because the principles it employs, transcending the limits of experience, cannot be tested by that criterion. The arena of these endless contests is called Metaphysic..
Max Müller, 1881: Nor is human reason to be blamed for this. It begins with principles which, in the course of experience, it must follow, and which are sufficiently confirmed by experience. With these again, according to the necessities of its nature, it rises higher and higher to more remote conditions. But when it perceives that in this way its work remains for ever incomplete, because the questions never cease, it finds itself constrained to take refuge in principles which exceed every possible experimental application, and nevertheless seem so unobjectionable that even ordinary common sense agrees with them. Thus, however, reason becomes involved in darkness and contradictions, from which, no doubt, it may conclude that errors must be lurking somewhere, but without being able to discover them, because the principles which it follows transcend all the limits of experience and therefore withdraw themselves from all experimental tests. It is the battle-field of these endless controversies which is called Metaphysic.
Norman Kemp Smith, 1929: The perplexity into which it thus falls is not due to any fault of its own. It begins with principles which it has no option save to employ in the course of experience, and which this experience at the same time abundantly justifies it in using. Rising with their aid (since it is determined to this also by its own nature) to ever higher, ever more remote, conditions, it soon becomes aware that in this way -the questions never ceasing -its work must always remain incomplete; and it therefore finds itself compelled to resort to principles which overstep all possible empirical employment, and which yet seem so unobjectionable that even ordinary consciousness readily accepts them. But by this procedure human reason precipitates itself into darkness and contradictions; and while it may indeed conjecture that these must be in some way due to concealed errors, it is not in a position to be able to detect them. For since the principles of which it is making use transcend the limits of experience, they are no longer subject to any empirical test. The battle-field of these endless controversies is called metaphysics.
My version: Yet no blame lies upon Reason for falling into this embarrassment. It begins with principles, which, in the course of experience, have proved quite indispensable and sufficiently trustworthy. Borne up with these principles (and as demanded by its nature), it ascends to ever higher and more remote conditions. When, though, it discovers that its work can never be completed in this manner-as the questions never cease-Reason is driven to seek refuge in principles which, though transcending any possible application to experience, occasion no distrust. Then Reason finds itself plunged into darkness and contradictions, from which it can only infer that some-where must be lurking errors that it can not detect, because the principles which Reason employs, as they reach beyond experience, do not admit of examination by trial. The battle-field of these endless conflicts is called Metaphysics.
Comment: 'Falls.....fault" (used in Meiklejohn and copied by Smith) is to my ears inelegant, so following Müller, I chose 'blame', using a construction "lies upon" found in Trollope's 'The Eustace Diamonds': "And you'll find also that she'll contrive that all the blame shall lie upon him." Other constructions used by Trollope feature 'cast': "No blame by such an assertion is cast upon the young Conservative aspirant for party honours." He uses 'imputed in 'Can You Forgive Her': " He had said no more than this-had imputed no blame to Alice-had told none of the circumstances; but Seward had known that the girl had jilted his friend, and had made up his mind that she must be heartless and false." Also, "on her head": "Don't put the blame on her head"
The point is that there are many constructions one can use for assigning 'blame'. I chose one from 'The Eustace Diamonds' because it seemed appropriate for the metaphor, where Reason is taken as a sort of personage.
The second sentence in the original is not excessively wordy, but all of the translations are. I avoided that by refusing to repeat the expression 'experience'. Müller comes close, but even his is too wordy.
The next sentence needs considerable work. If translated literally, it seems tautologous:
"Reason takes refuge in principles which, even though they transcend all possible application in experience, are so innocent-seeming that ordinary human reason (common sense) agrees with them."
Well, duh! Why include the bit about "ordinary human reason" when 'reason' is already the subject of this sentence? Why explain that "common sense" or "ordinary human reason" agrees with them if they seem 'innocent'?
Anyway, "die gemeine Menschenvernunft" is usually translated as "common sense", which obscures the relationship between 'Menschenvernunft' and 'Vernunft'. 'Tis better simply to leave it out, as I did, and simply say: "occasion no distrust". What is the English reader missing here? Nothing!
Martin Ambuhl - 30 Oct 2006 17:59 GMT > Why reproduce all that junk in translation? Consider the following text > (preface) from Kant's first Kritik, 1781: [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > Comment: My version has better rhythm and is less 'clunky' than the > others. This is, of course, the beginning of the preface to the first edition. People with the second edition might be confused. You might compare these to the translation by Paul Guyer and Allen W. Wood (Cambridge, 1998):
Human reason has the peculiar fate in one species of its cognitions that it is burdened with questions which it cannot dismiss, since they are given to it as problems[b] by the nature of reason itself, but which it also cannot answer, since they transcend every capacity[c] of human reason.
[b] aufgegeben [c] Vermögen
As for "clunkiness," I see no advantage to your version. Some differences to note, though, include
Your capitalization of 'reason', missing in _all_ the other versions screams either personification of reason or your retreat to 18th century capitalization for an archaizing effect. It is an error.
'Cognition' is what the passage is about and what 'Erkenntnisse' means. 'Knowlege' (Müller, Smith, UC) is not wrong but is too broad. It is hard to express in English the connotation of 'discovery' often attached to 'Erkenntnisse', but it is not clear that it is necessary.
'Department of knowledge' is silly. 'Gattung' does not mean 'department'; it means 'kind', ;sort', 'genre', 'genus', or 'species'. The choices of the translators of 'class' or 'species' are much better than 'sphere' or 'department.'
The use of 'burdened with' for 'belästigt wird' is obviously better than the bloodless 'called upon to consider'. UC's 'beset' is fine.
'Vermögen' is given as a footnote by Guyer and Wood for the good reason the popular 'powers' does not adequately represent the meaning of this word.
UC's version is obviously better than (Meiklejohm, 1855). So is everybody else's. It seems to me no improvement over (Max Müller, 1881) or (Norman Kemp Smith, 1929) and definitely inferior to (Paul Guyer and Allen W. Wood, 1998).
UC - 30 Oct 2006 18:12 GMT > > Why reproduce all that junk in translation? Consider the following text > > (preface) from Kant's first Kritik, 1781: [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > This is, of course, the beginning of the preface to the first edition. Yes.
> People with the second edition might be confused. > You might compare these to the translation by Paul Guyer and Allen W. > Wood (Cambridge, 1998): Those hacks? You must be joking.
> Human reason has the peculiar fate in one species of its cognitions that > it is burdened with questions which it cannot dismiss, since they are [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > [b] aufgegeben > [c] Vermögen The whole discussion of "aufgegeben" shows that they have no idea what they are talking about.
> As for "clunkiness," I see no advantage to your version. Some > differences to note, though, include > > Your capitalization of 'reason', missing in _all_ the other versions > screams either personification of reason or your retreat to 18th century > capitalization for an archaizing effect. It is an error. It is personification, in accord with 18th-century practice. The preface uses Reason as an agent.
> 'Cognition' is what the passage is about and what 'Erkenntnisse' > means. 'Knowlege' (Müller, Smith, UC) is not wrong but is too broad. This is a preface. The reader is not ready for that, and 'cognition' is not clearly the best choice. I have sided with Müller, who was a native German speaker, after considerable reflection.
> It is hard to express in English the connotation of 'discovery' often > attached to 'Erkenntnisse', but it is not clear that it is necessary. Right.
> 'Department of knowledge' is silly. It's idiomatic 18th century language.
> 'Gattung' does not mean > 'department'; it means 'kind', ;sort', 'genre', 'genus', or 'species'. Right, but "department of knowledge" is the idiomatic term in English.
> The choices of the translators of 'class' or 'species' are much better > than 'sphere' or 'department.' Nope. They're hopelessly literal. I consulted an actual preface to see. Also, see any old Websters dictionary. "Department of Knowledge" is standard.
Look at the following:
"It is vain, then, if it were desirable, to avoid touching, or even entering to some extent into, other apparently distinct departments of knowledge."
>From LATIN LEXICON LATIN-ENGLISH AND ENGLISH-LATIN EDITED BY F. P. LEVERETT COMPILED CHIEFLY FROM THE MAGNUM TOTIUS LATINITATIS LEXICON OF FACCIOLATI AND FORCELLINI, AND THE GERMAN WORKS OF SCHILLER AND LUENEMANN
NEW PRINTING FROM THE ORIGINAL THE PETER REILLY COMPANY PHILADELPHIA 1931
I do my homework. Guyer and Wood? You cannot be serious.
> The use of 'burdened with' for 'belästigt wird' is obviously better than > the bloodless 'called upon to consider'. UC's 'beset' is fine. I like it better.
> 'Vermögen' is given as a footnote by Guyer and Wood for the good reason > the popular 'powers' does not adequately represent the meaning of this word. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > or (Norman Kemp Smith, 1929) and definitely inferior to (Paul Guyer and > Allen W. Wood, 1998). Guyer and Wood are hacks who have no business doing translations. They're hopelessly incompetent.
UC - 30 Oct 2006 18:20 GMT > > > Why reproduce all that junk in translation? Consider the following text > > > (preface) from Kant's first Kritik, 1781: [quoted text clipped - 123 lines] > Guyer and Wood are hacks who have no business doing translations. > They're hopelessly incompetent. By the way, the Leverett Latin lexicon dates from about 1836.
http://www.richardwolf.de/latein/leverett.htm
UC - 30 Oct 2006 18:37 GMT > 'Department of knowledge' is silly. You don't translate the 'words' but what the words refer to.
'Department of knowledge" is standard (idiomatic) English academic language. Kant is referring to 'metaphysics' by this expression.
UC - 30 Oct 2006 22:28 GMT > > Why reproduce all that junk in translation? Consider the following text > > (preface) from Kant's first Kritik, 1781: [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] > > 'Department of knowledge' is silly. "The Editors are fully aware that there is no specifically Catholic science, that mathematics, physiology and other branches of human knowledge are neither Catholic, Jewish, nor Protestant; but when it is commonly asserted that Catholic principles are an obstacle to scientific research, it seems not only proper but needful to register what and how much Catholics have contributed to every department of knowledge."
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/index.html
The 'departments' of a university are actually supposed to represent "departments of knowledge"
Main Entry:department Pronunciation:d**p*rtm*nt, d**-, -p*t- Function:noun Inflected Form:-s Etymology:French d*partement, from Middle French departement, from departir to divide + -ment * more at DEPART
1 : appointed sphere or province (as of activity or thought) *Pope's own peculiar department of literature T.B.Macaulay* 2 a : a discrete territorial or functional division or section of a larger organized or systematized whole *good taste T goes into every department of life Elspeth Betjeman*: as(1) : the largest administrative subdivision in France and some of the French colonies presided over by a prefect(2) [American Spanish departamento, from French d*partement] : a similar territorial division in some Central and So. American countries b : an administrative division or branch of a national or municipal government *the welfare department* c : a discrete branch of instruction or study in a school or college *the English department* *the department of modern languages* d (1) : a division of a business concern handling a major function *the accounting department*(2) : a division of a store handling a distinct class of merchandise *the furniture department* *dry goods department* e (1) : a territorial subdivision for the administration, training, and tactical control of military units stationed within its limits(2) usually capitalized : such a former subdivision of the possessions of the United States outside the continental limits 3 : a regular column or feature devoted to a particular subject in a publication or radio program
'Gattung' does not mean
> 'department'; it means 'kind', ;sort', 'genre', 'genus', or 'species'. > The choices of the translators of 'class' or 'species' are much better [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > or (Norman Kemp Smith, 1929) and definitely inferior to (Paul Guyer and > Allen W. Wood, 1998). UC - 30 Oct 2006 22:44 GMT > 'Department of knowledge' is silly. 'Gattung' does not mean > 'department'; it means 'kind', ;sort', 'genre', 'genus', or 'species'. > The choices of the translators of 'class' or 'species' are much better > than 'sphere' or 'department.' James Madison to W. T. Barry, 4 Aug. 1822:
"Its rapid growth & signal prosperity in this character have afforded me much pleasure; which is not a little enhanced by the enlightened patriotism which is now providing for the State a Plan of Education embracing every class of Citizens, and every grade & department of Knowledge. No error is more certain than the one proceeding from a hasty & superficial view of the subject: that the people at large have no interest in the establishment of Academies, Colleges, and Universities, where a few only, and those not of the poorer classes can obtain for their sons the advantages of superior education. It is thought to be unjust that all should be taxed for the benefit of a part, and that too the part least needing it."
http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/v1ch18s35.html
UC - 30 Oct 2006 22:45 GMT > 'Department of knowledge' is silly. 'Gattung' does not mean > 'department'; it means 'kind', ;sort', 'genre', 'genus', or 'species'. > The choices of the translators of 'class' or 'species' are much better > than 'sphere' or 'department.' James Madison to W. T. Barry, 4 Aug. 1822:
"Its rapid growth & signal prosperity in this character have afforded me much pleasure; which is not a little enhanced by the enlightened patriotism which is now providing for the State a Plan of Education embracing every class of Citizens, and every grade & department of Knowledge. No error is more certain than the one proceeding from a hasty & superficial view of the subject: that the people at large have no interest in the establishment of Academies, Colleges, and Universities, where a few only, and those not of the poorer classes can obtain for their sons the advantages of superior education. It is thought to be unjust that all should be taxed for the benefit of a part, and that too the part least needing it."
http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/v1ch18s35.html
Robert Lieblich - 31 Oct 2006 03:36 GMT > > 'Department of knowledge' is silly. 'Gattung' does not mean > > 'department'; it means 'kind', ;sort', 'genre', 'genus', or 'species'. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/v1ch18s35.html It struck me as remarkable that anyone both would and could give you a serious critique of your English translation of a passage from Kant, even given that you had cross-posted it to alt.usage.german. It strikes me as even more remarkable that you have posted no fewer than six responses, so far, to that one critique.
I lack the knowlege of German to weigh in on the merits, but I wonder if you have a metaphorical mirror in which you can examine your conduct, and whether you might then contemplate whether sneering at the one person who has bothered to give you an educated and considered response is the best way to profit from the experience. You could have said much the same thing in substance by thanking Brother Martin for his thoughtful resopnse, expressing polite disagreement with those points you don't agree with, and perhaps asking a question or two to help develop the discussion.
If this be ad hominem, make the most of it.
 Signature Bob Lieblich Channeling Emily Post
UC - 31 Oct 2006 04:17 GMT > > > 'Department of knowledge' is silly. 'Gattung' does not mean > > > 'department'; it means 'kind', ;sort', 'genre', 'genus', or 'species'. [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > If this be ad hominem, make the most of it. You must underdstand that few are qualified to judge this (my) work. I wanted to illustrate how important a native knowledge of English is in translating Kant. Most of these criticisms are old, and almost all of them are wrong. 'Gattung' may mean 'genus' and 'Erkennisse' may mean 'cognitions' in isolation, but "einer Gattung ihrer Erkenntnisse" means "in one department of knowledge". Full stop.
Most modern Germans are utterly unqualified to translate Kant into English or even to criticisze such a translation, unless they have a native knowledge of 18th & 19th century academic English as well. You'll note that I found several examples of "department of knowledge" from the early 19th century. The collocation goes back much farther than that.
Secondly, again, most Germans tend to want to translate every word, even when such a practice results in redundancy or absurd English. That was the principle point I wanted to discuss. In my translation, I have abbreviated the sentence:
"When, though, it discovers that its work can never be completed in this manner-as the questions never cease-Reason is driven to seek refuge in principles which, though transcending any possible application to experience, occasion no distrust. "
Why? The parts that are excised from the German simply add nothing but confusion. You'll note also that I repositioned "in this manner" to a point where it is idiomatic in English. None of the other translators bothered to do this.
"Da sie aber gewahr wird, daß auf diese Art ihr Geschäft jederzeit unvollendet bleiben müsse, weil die Fragen niemals aufhören, so sieht sie sich genötigt, zu Grundsätzen ihre Zuflucht zu nehmen, die allen möglichen Erfahrungsgebrauch überschreiten und gleichwohl so unverdächtig scheinen, daß auch die gemeine Menschenvernunft damit im Einverständnisse steht."
Consider Kemp Smith's version:
"Rising with their aid (since it is determined to this also by its own nature) to ever higher, ever more remote, conditions, it soon becomes aware that in this way -the questions never ceasing -its work must always remain incomplete; and it therefore finds itself compelled to resort to principles which overstep all possible empirical employment, and which yet seem so unobjectionable that even ordinary consciousness readily accepts them."
He at least tried to get around the redundancy of 'Vernunft' and 'Menschenvernunft' by rendering the latter as "ordinary consciousness". But why bother with that at all? If, as Kant says, reason "takes refuge" (my expression) in these principles, why bother with it again by adding that reason 'accepts' (Smith) or "agrees with" (Müller) them? We have already been told that reason has taken refuge in them, so what more needs to be said, except that they give us no reason to distust them?
Meiklejohn gave me the clue to drop this, with his translation "while they are regarded by common sense without distrust". He saw the redundancy and decided to do away with it. And why say that "common sense" accepts them because it sees nothing wrong with them? 'Common sense is indeed one of the translations of "die gemeine Menschenvernunft" but Kant is repeating 'Vernunft', which again is lost if we translate it as "common sense". So, again, what's the point. DROP IT!
Note also how wordy Smith's version of this sentence is compared to mine:
"Borne up with these principles (and as demanded by its nature), it ascends to ever higher and more remote conditions."
Rising with their aid (since it is determined to this also by its own nature) to ever higher, ever more remote, conditions [he fuses this sentence, which ends here in the German, to the next]
Why take ELEVEN words to say what can be said just as well if not better in SIX?
"(since it is determined to this also by its own nature" "(and as demanded by its nature)"
when the German is only EIGHT:
(wie es auch ihre Natur mit sich bringt).
Robert Lieblich - 31 Oct 2006 04:25 GMT > > > > 'Department of knowledge' is silly. 'Gattung' does not mean > > > > 'department'; it means 'kind', ;sort', 'genre', 'genus', or 'species'. [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > You must underdstand that few are qualified to judge this (my) work. [long snip]
Then what makes you think you're going to find such a person on Usenet?
I was, in any event, addressing your conduct, not the details of the translation. I am woefully unqualified to discuss the latter, so I limited myself to the former. Your going on at further length about what a great job you've done (which is what I snipped) is of no interest to me -- I can more-or-less follow, but I'm powerless to choose sides. What I can see is that you are busily engaged in showing off, to the point that when someone comes along who actually knows enough to respond, you blow him off lest he steal attention from you.
My guess is that your ego is very fragile, but then I'm not qualified for that sort of judgment either.
 Signature Bob Lieblich Apparently not qualified for much of anything
UC - 31 Oct 2006 04:46 GMT > > > > > 'Department of knowledge' is silly. 'Gattung' does not mean > > > > > 'department'; it means 'kind', ;sort', 'genre', 'genus', or 'species'. [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > Then what makes you think you're going to find such a person on > Usenet? I was pointing out the need for idiomatic English and showing how it's done.
> I was, in any event, addressing your conduct, not the details of the > translation. I am woefully unqualified to discuss the latter, so I [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > knows enough to respond, you blow him off lest he steal attention from > you. But he doesn't. He thinks he does, and I have dealt with German academics on these issues before. They are unreasonable and completely uninformed about what a translation is supposed to do (not be, DO; the distinction is important). One of them told me, after I pointed out that there was no point at all in a pedantic translation of Kant, that it was not possible to be TOO pedantic! We had fiery words after that comment!
> My guess is that your ego is very fragile, but then I'm not qualified > for that sort of judgment either. Er... 'judgement'.
Robert Lieblich - 31 Oct 2006 04:55 GMT [ ... ]
> > My guess is that your ego is very fragile, but then I'm not qualified > > for that sort of judgment either. > > Er... 'judgement'. Proving my point.
If you want to use British spellings, okay -- use British spellings. But to suggest that an American poster using an American spelling has done anything requiring any sort of comment is, as I said, proof of my point.
You'd do both of us a favour if you abandoned such manoeuvres.
 Signature Bob Lieblich Not expecting an adknowledgment that he was right
UC - 31 Oct 2006 04:58 GMT > [ ... ] > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > You'd do both of us a favour if you abandoned such manoeuvres. You're American? I did not know. Even so, I hate the American spelling of that word. Let's talk anon, on the morrow, mayhaps. The eve is fled.
Robert Lieblich - 31 Oct 2006 05:03 GMT > > [ ... ] > > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > You're American? I did not know. I make no secret of it.
> Even so, I hate the American spelling of that word. This isn't aesthetics but a matter of adhering to convention. Which I do. I don't complain when you don't. You shouldn't complain when I do.
> Let's talk anon, on the morrow, mayhaps. The eve is fled. Shouldn't that be "mayhap"? Anyway, I'm leaving town for a few days. I have a couple of Discworld novels (still haven't run out of them) to keep me from missing Usenet. Feel free to proceed without me.
 Signature Bob Lieblich Tally Ho!
UC - 01 Nov 2006 15:37 GMT > > > > > > 'Department of knowledge' is silly. 'Gattung' does not mean > > > > > > 'department'; it means 'kind', ;sort', 'genre', 'genus', or 'species'. [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] > > Er... 'judgement'. Here is what he said:
"19. Mai 2003
Sehr geehrter Herr Scarpitti!
Hinsichtlich des "Pedantischen" kann ich Ihnen nicht zustimmen. In philosophischer Hinsicht kann eine Übersetzung gar nicht pedantisch genug sein."
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I had also communicated with Wood about an error I had found in his translation. The e-mail is below. His reply is (of course) dead wrong.
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From: Michael Scarpitti
Subject: missen und messen
Dr Wood: I have found what appears to be an error in your translation, in the section on the criticism of the cosmological proof, in the paragraph which begins "Die unbedingte Nothwendigkeit..." and ends with "...zu lassen." (I believe around A 610-612). The sentence affected (the 2nd) begins:
"Selbst die Ewigkeit, so schauderhaft..."
The phrase affected is: "... ; denn sie mißt nur die Dauer der Dinge, aber trägt sie nicht."
First of all, the "mißt" does not mean "missen" but "messen", even though the 3rd person singular has the same form in both cases. "To lack" makes no sense at all here. Secondly, the "sie" refers not to "die Dinge" but to "die Dauer" or "die Dauer der Dinge." In either case, the translation should be "it", not "them".
Michael Scarpitti
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From: Allen W. Wood Sent: 12 February 1998 3:12 PM To: 'Michael Scarpitti' Subject: RE: missen und messen
1) Timeless eternity lacks duration (in the medieval phrase, it is tota simul - simultaneously whole). Perhaps eternity also measures duration - constitutes its ontological measure, in some sense; but it seemed to us that the fact that eternity lacks duration is more perplexing, paradoxical and awesome to us time-bound creatures than the fact of its measuring duration, which may be why you thought it had to be nonsense. But the paradoxically and awesomeness of a necessary being is precisely K's point in the passage, so we thought the verb "missen" is more likely intended than "messen".
2) It is impossible to say on merely syntactical grounds whether 'sie' refers to Dauer or Dinge, since it can either be a singular feminine pronoun or a plural pronoun; but if it refers to the latter, as we supposed, then it should be translated 'them', and not 'it' (as we did). Our reason for choosing 'things' as the referent is that the thought that eternity bears or supports things seemed to us more straightforward than the thought that it bears or supports their duration - though the latter thought is also one K might have here. It's not clear to that the two thoughts are very different, though, which may be why K permitted a grammatically ambiguous pronoun. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
UC - 31 Oct 2006 04:52 GMT Here's my full review of Guyer-Wood, prepared for Amazon:
Please note that I am reviewing only the Guyer-Wood translation, not the work itself.
There are four previous English translations of this work: Francis Haywood (1838, revised 1848); JMD Meiklejohn (1855); F Max Müller (1881, revised 1896); and NK Smith (1929). All of these (save the first) have considerable merit. Meiklejohn shows considerable skill in making Kant speak idiomatic English. As Müller points out, however, Meiklejohn not infrequently flounders in Kant's monstrous gothic sentences, and loses the thread of meaning. As a native German speaker and scholar of language, and the son of a poet, Müller's 1881 version set the standard for this work for intelligibility, clarity, and readability. Unfortunately, his 1896 revision, made under the influence of the more radical of the neo-Kantians, is somewhat less satisfactory. He unwisely deferred to them in accepting highly questionable modifications to the text. Smith's version borrowed heavily from Meiklejohn's version stylistically, often copying passages almost verbatim, and all too often where Meiklejohn had grievously erred in understanding the text, and Müller had not!
Smith's version has been standard for many years, but even a cursory comparison of Smith with Müller will show that the latter often has a clearer grasp of the German, and provides a better expression of the key concepts. Smith had also come under the influence of the radical neo-Kantians, and his translation suffers severely from that.
Prospective readers of a great philosopher's work come to the work with certain expectations. They have the right to expect - nay demand - prose that reflects that greatness. Kant's great work is a work of literature, and must be respected as any other work of literature. He often employs literary devices (such as metaphor) to make his point clearer. Sensitivity to idiomatic English style must be paramount in the translation of so difficult a work as this.
In short: Translating a work of this kind calls for special talents. Guyer and Wood, unfortunately, do not possess these talents.
They have no credentials in literary translation, translation theory, or semiotics. Despite this, they have installed themselves as General Editors of the Cambridge Kant translation series.
They expressly affirm that they have tried not to 'interpret' as they translate, but to translate 'literally', and leave interpretation to the reader. The difficulty is that such a stance is ideological, rather than practical, and as such it is unsupportable.
Their translation follows the original in a slavish, word-for-word fashion. The results are wooden and unnatural, and often unintelligible. For a truly successful translation of a work such as this, it is absolutely necessary to interpret, and to rewrite the interpretation in idiomatic English, specifically late 18th-century philosophical English. Often, complete reconstruction of the sentence is necessary. Guyer and Wood never do this, and are in fact incapable of doing this.
There is no excuse for allowing a translation to be unintelligible or unidiomatic. If there are textual problems in the original (and in this text there are many) the translator must attempt to resolve them. Simply passing them along for the reader to dispose of (even though the reader may be utterly incapable of 'interpreting' the resulting gibberish), in the name of 'accuracy', is a mistaken notion. It does no-one any good. The translator, not the author, will be blamed.
As a consequence, the Guyer-Wood translation is the worst ever of this work, except for the very first one from 1838, by Francis Haywood, and for the same reasons, cited by JMD Meiklejohn in his translation of the Critique, published in 1855. Speaking of Haywood's primitive, literal, word-for-word approach, Meiklejohn remarks:
"A translator ought to be an interpreting intellect between the author and the reader; but in this case the only interpreting medium has been the dictionary."
The same can be said of the Guyer and Wood translation.
It is interesting that Guyer and Wood, in their preface, praise the very Haywood translation denounced by Meiklejohn, because (they say) it was so 'literal' (folks, I'm not making this up!).
This is quite revealing of the incompetence of these two translators. The best translation of this work was that of F. Max Müller, in 1881/1896. How do I know? I checked them all!
Müller's 1896 version is available online at:
http://oll.libertyfund.org/Home3/HTML.php?recordID=0330
Here's an example, from one of the most famous passages in this work:
"Die leichte Taube, indem sie im freien Fluge die Luft teilt, deren Widerstand sie fühlt, könnte die Vorstellung fassen, daß es ihr im luftleeren Raum noch viel besser gelingen werde. Ebenso verließ Plato die Sinnenwelt, weil sie dem Verstande so vielfältige Hindernisse legt, und wagte sich jenseit derselben auf den Flügeln der Ideen, in den leeren Raum des reinen Verstandes. Er bemerkte nicht, daß er durch seine Bemühungen keinen Weg gewönne, denn er hatte keinen Widerhalt, gleichsam zur Unterlage, worauf er sich steifen, und woran er seine Kräfte anwenden konnte, um den Verstand von der Stelle zu bringen. Es ist aber ein gewöhnliches Schicksal der menschlichen Vernunft in der Spekulation ihr Gebäude so früh, wie möglich, fertigzumachen, und hintennach allererst zu untersuchen, ob auch der Grund dazu gut gelegt sei. Alsdann aber werden allerlei Beschönigungen herbeigesucht, um uns wegen dessen Tüchtigkeit zu trösten, oder eine solche späte und gefährliche Prüfung abzuweisen."
Here's the Guyer-Wood translation:
"The light dove, in free flight cutting through the air the resistance of which it feels, could get the idea that it could do even better in airless space. Likewise, Plato abandoned the world of the senses, because it imposed so many hindrances for the understanding, and dared to go beyond it on the wings of his ideas, in the empty space of pure understanding. He did not notice that he made no headway by all his efforts, for he had no resistance, no support, as it were, by which he could stiffen himself, and to which he could apply his powers in order to get his understanding off the ground. It is, however, a customary fate of human reason in speculation to finish its edifice as early as possible and only then to investigate whether ground has been adequately prepared for it. But at that point all sorts of excuses will be sought for to assure us of its sturdiness or to refuse such a late and dangerous an investigation."
No native English speaker would ever write an original sentence like this:
"The light dove, in free flight cutting through the air the resistance of which it feels, could get the idea that it could do even better in airless space."
This is a preposterous translation, and there is no justification for such dreadful English prose, no matter what the intentions or ideology of the translator. This is simply gibberish.
Other points: "Hindernisse legt" [first edition] is idiomatically "posed hindrances". The characteristic insensitivity to idiomatic usage displayed by Guyer-Wood reveals itself in their choice of "imposed". The proper combination is "posing hindrances", not "opposing" or "imposing".
"...worauf er sich steifen": Their choice of 'stiffen himself' is ludicrous. Kant here is comparing the understanding to a bird launching itself into flight from its perch. The bird naturally tightens its muscles and presses against the perch (forming the fulcrum for the lever of its legs) to do this. The correct translation is 'brace himself'.
The Guyer-Wood team again show their insensitivity to English usage by translating the expression "gewöhnliches Schicksal" as "customary fate", which is un-idiomatic and totally absurd. 'Fate' has nothing to do with 'custom'; in fact, this is an oxymoron. Fate has to do with things that are beyond men's control. What is 'customary' has to do with what men habitually do. (The correct choices include "usual fate" or perhaps "common fate".) This absurdity appears to be a direct consequence of Guyer and Wood's stated preference for using a single English term to render a single German term. But it results in absurdities like 'customary fate'.
Here's my suggested translation of this passage:
"Parting the soft air with her wings and feeling its resistance, the light dove might imagine that her efforts would be better served in airless space. Abandoning the sphere of the senses because it posed so many hindrances to the understanding, Plato ventured beyond experience, on the wings of his ideas, into the empty space of the pure understanding. He did not observe, though, that even with all his efforts, nought was to be gained, for he had no resistance, no fulcrum, as it were, against which he could brace himself and apply his powers, to propel the understanding from its perch. Indeed, it is the usual fate of human reason in the thrall of speculation to finish its edifice as soon as possible, and only then to investigate whether the foundation had been made firm. To ease our doubts of its solidity, we then mark all the excellencies of our handiwork; or we seek excuses to reject altogether such a threatening and belated inspection."
In the version presented here, the German "ebenso" ("in just this way") is transformed from a semantic form (a word) to a grammatical structure. The first and second sentences, "Parting the soft air with her wings..." and "Abandoning the sphere of the senses..." now run parallel in their grammatical form. This reinforces in the reader's mind the parallel between the dove's thoughts and Plato's thoughts. We no longer therefore have any need to say "in just this way". It has been moved from the semantic "stream" to the syntactical. This parallel form is not present in the original, strictly speaking, but this construction is clearly warranted by the semantics of the piece. The "ebenso" is no longer stated, but performed.
It seems necessary to add 'the thrall of' to 'in speculation' to fill out the sense obviously intended by Kant. A literal translation is confusing.
The German original, because of its inflection, provides information that cannot be directly translated. `Die leichte Taube' means `the light (female) dove'. Since the order of the sentence is substantially changed, and because English does not have genders, I attempt to place that information back at the beginning of the sentence by using the phrase `with her wings'. So, right from the beginning we know that we are dealing with a female winged creature, just as the German reader does. The expression `with her wings' is also intended to account for the original's `im freien Fluge' (in free flight) which is not literally translated in my version. The reason it is handled this way is because of the differences between German and English. It also anticipates the 'wings of his ideas' in the following sentence.
Translation of one language into another requires thought and interpretation. It is not a mechanical process. The words are not numbers that can be processed as if through a computer, though Guyer and Wood approach it that way. For that reason, Guyer and Wood simply have no business translating anything. They are incompetent; among other things, they import medieval meanings into Kant's text, something for which they have no legitimate basis. This work demands a sensitivity to language, and an ability to write in an English style that is readable. Guyer and Wood lack that ability.
They have stated that their translation is intended for academics and scholars. No translation, though, can ever take the place of the original for scholarly purposes, no matter how carefully and scrupulously the work is performed. Translations are suitable only for introductory to intermediate classes. Anyone attempting serious study of a work of this kind must refer to the original, and that means learning to cope with Kant's somewhat idiosyncratic German.
Because Guyer and Wood do not understand the limitations of the process of translation, their work is misguided. That in turn has led them to make unfortunate choices in their translation. For this reason, and because they themselves have no apparent literary talent, this translation cannot be recommended.
----------NOT RECOMMENDED------------
Robert Lieblich - 31 Oct 2006 04:58 GMT [Not one word that I wrote appeared in your lengthy post]
> Here's my full review of Guyer-Wood, prepared for Amazon: I didn't ask for it, and I didn't read it.
> Please note that I am reviewing only the Guyer-Wood translation, not > the work itself. How stupid do we look?
No further comment.
UC - 31 Oct 2006 14:41 GMT > [Not one word that I wrote appeared in your lengthy post] > > > Here's my full review of Guyer-Wood, prepared for Amazon: > > I didn't ask for it, and I didn't read it. It is a critque of their approach and it involves English. It's good reading.
> > Please note that I am reviewing only the Guyer-Wood translation, not > > the work itself. > > How stupid do we look? Che?
> No further comment. Warum?
Eric Schwartz - 31 Oct 2006 18:41 GMT > > [Not one word that I wrote appeared in your lengthy post] > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > It is a critque of their approach and it involves English. Perhaps; I'm still not convinced that what you write is actually English in any recognizable sense of the word.
> It's good reading. This is a highly debatable proposition, to put it mildly.
-=Eric
UC - 01 Nov 2006 00:39 GMT > > > [Not one word that I wrote appeared in your lengthy post] > > > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > This is a highly debatable proposition, to put it mildly. Read it and see for yourself. You just might learn something.
> -=Eric t4a - 03 Nov 2006 17:54 GMT UC schrieb:
> Secondly, again, most Germans tend to want to translate every word, > even when such a practice results in redundancy or absurd English. That > was the principle point I wanted to discuss. In my translation, I have > abbreviated the sentence: It appears to me you also tend to want to write more than necessary. One could assume German descent.
(Friday fun)
UC - 03 Nov 2006 18:01 GMT > UC schrieb: > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > It appears to me you also tend to want to write more than necessary. > One could assume German descent. Nein. Ich bin Italianisch-Amerikan.
> (Friday fun) Robert Lieblich - 04 Nov 2006 01:21 GMT > Secondly, again, most Germans tend to want to translate every word, > even when such a practice results in redundancy or absurd English. That > was the principle point Redundancy!
> I wanted to discuss. [ ... ]
Lars Enderin - 04 Nov 2006 10:48 GMT Robert Lieblich skrev:
>> Secondly, again, most Germans tend to want to translate every word, >> even when such a practice results in redundancy or absurd English. That >> was the principle point > > Redundancy! Didn't you mean to write Principal?
Robert Lieblich - 04 Nov 2006 15:40 GMT > Robert Lieblich skrev: > >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > > Didn't you mean to write Principal? First, I didn't write it. UC did. Second, the capital letter is incorrect.
Third, of course it should be "principal." That was my point.
 Signature Bob Lieblich The one and only; accept no substitutes
Lars Enderin - 04 Nov 2006 16:37 GMT Robert Lieblich skrev:
>> Robert Lieblich skrev: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Third, of course it should be "principal." That was my point. Why did you write "Redundancy" then?
Robert Lieblich - 04 Nov 2006 16:42 GMT > Robert Lieblich skrev: > >> Robert Lieblich skrev: [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > > Why did you write "Redundancy" then? Because "principle" (sic) and "point" overlap in meaning. I was trying to be funny. You'd think that after John Kerry's example I'd know better.
 Signature Bob Lieblich No Rodney Dengerfield
Lars Enderin - 04 Nov 2006 17:05 GMT Robert Lieblich skrev:
>> Robert Lieblich skrev: >>>> Robert Lieblich skrev: [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > trying to be funny. You'd think that after John Kerry's example I'd > know better. Ok, I get it now. I'm surprised that so many people misspell "principal" or one of its homonyms.
UC - 04 Nov 2006 19:04 GMT > Robert Lieblich skrev: > >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > > Didn't you mean to write Principal? Yes, of course.
UC - 31 Oct 2006 04:41 GMT > > > 'Department of knowledge' is silly. 'Gattung' does not mean > > > 'department'; it means 'kind', ;sort', 'genre', 'genus', or 'species'. [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > If this be ad hominem, make the most of it. Two further points before retiring for the evening. I was in communication with Allen Wood and Paul Guyer several years before their translation appeared, and we discussed some limited collaboration, as I had prepared translations of the prefaces in 1991 or so, before I became aware that they were working on a new translation. Wood and I exchanged some materials (he sent me his translation of the first preface and I sent him mine). It was intended to be of mutual benefit, and he promised at least to credit me in his acknowledgements with making this minor contribution, even if he decided not to incorporate much, if anything, from my translations of the prefaces into his final product; this he did not do. He did, however, see fit to acknowledge students who merely attended his classes over the last 20 years or so. So, that's the kind of hypocrite Allen Wood is.
Anyone who has seriously studied the history of this work in English (as I have) must be aware of the difficulties the English reader faces. In any event, a translation of an 18th century German work must bve clothed the English of its period, not that of the 20th century. After all, students who read Hume and Locke do not have 'modernized' versions of those works, and since Kant is writing in reply to Locke and Hume, it makes no sense to translate his work using language that Hume and Locke could not have understood!
What to cut and what to add are always delicate judgements. Tomorrow I shall post a further example of the Guyer-Wood incompetence.
For Martin to throw Guyer and Wood in my face is more than an insult. They are incompetent fools who could not translate their way out of a paper bag.
You may note my (Michael Scarpitti) review of their work at amazon.com:
http://www.amazon.com/Critique-Pure-Reason-Immanuel-Kant/dp/0521657296/sr=8-1/qi d=1162265991/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-6754314-2433609?ie=UTF8&s=books
I had to abridge this. Tomorrow, I shall post the whole original review.
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