Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
Home
Discussion GroupsEnglish UsageBritish EnglishESL Teaching
Learnglish.com
Contact UsLink To UsSearch & Site Map

Discussion Groups / English Usage / November 2006



Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

I don't get it

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
UC - 30 Oct 2006 16:14 GMT
Why reproduce all that junk in translation? Consider the following text
(preface) from Kant's first Kritik, 1781:

Die menschliche Vernunft hat das besondere Schicksal in einer Gattung
ihrer Erkenntnisse: daß sie durch Fragen belästigt wird, die sie
nicht abweisen kann; denn sie sind ihr durch die Natur der Vernunft
selbst aufgegeben, die sie aber auch nicht beantworten kann; denn sie
übersteigen alles Vermögen der menschlichen Vernunft.

Meiklejohm 1855:
Human reason, in one sphere of its cognition, is called upon to
consider questions, which it cannot decline, as they are presented by
its own nature, but which it cannot answer, as they transcend every
faculty of the mind.

Max Müller, 1881:
OUR reason (Vernunft) has this peculiar fate that, with reference to
one class of its knowledge, it is always troubled with questions which
cannot be ignored, because they spring from the very nature of reason,
and which cannot be answered, because they transcend the powers of
human reason.

Norman Kemp Smith, 1929:
HUMAN reason has this peculiar fate that in one species of its
knowledge it is burdened by questions which, as prescribed by the very
nature of reason itself, it is not able to ignore, but which, as
transcending all its powers, it is also not able to answer.

My version:
Human Reason suffers the peculiar fate, that, in one department of
knowledge, it is beset by questions which it cannot set aside, as they
arise from the nature of Reason itself; but these questions it cannot
answer, for they transcend all the powers of our Reason.

Comment: My version has better rhythm and is less 'clunky' than the
others.

In diese Verlegenheit gerät sie ohne ihre Schuld. Sie fängt von
Grundsätzen an, deren Gebrauch im Laufe der Erfahrung unvermeidlich
und zugleich durch diese hinreichend bewährt ist. Mit diesem steigt
sie (wie es auch ihre Natur mit sich bringt) immer höher, zu
entfernteren Bedingungen. Da sie aber gewahr wird, daß auf diese Art
ihr Geschäft jederzeit unvollendet bleiben müsse, weil die Fragen
niemals aufhören, so sieht sie sich genötigt, zu Grundsätzen ihre
Zuflucht zu nehmen, die allen möglichen Erfahrungsgebrauch
überschreiten und gleichwohl so unverdächtig scheinen, daß auch die
gemeine Menschenvernunft damit im Einverständnisse steht. Dadurch aber
stürzt sie sich in Dunkelheit und Widersprüche, aus welchen sie zwar
abnehmen kann, daß irgendwo verborgene Irrtümer zum Grunde liegen
müssen, die sie aber nicht entdecken kann, weil die Grundsätze, deren
die sich bedient, da sie über die Grenze aller Erfahrung hinausgehen,
keinen Probierstein der Erfahrung mehr anerkennen. Der Kampfplatz
dieser endlosen Streitigkeiten heißt nun Metaphysik.

Meiklejohn, 1855:
It falls into this difficulty without any fault of its own. It begins
with principles, which cannot be dispensed with in the field of
experience, and the truth and sufficiency of which are, at the same
time, insured by experience. With these principles it rises, in
obedience to the laws of its own nature, to ever higher and more remote
conditions. But it quickly discovers that, in this way, its labours
must remain ever incomplete, because new questions never cease to
present themselves; and thus it finds itself compelled to have recourse
to principles which transcend the region of experience, while they are
regarded by common sense without distrust. It thus falls into confusion
and contradictions, from which it conjectures the presence of latent
errors, which, however, it is unable to discover, because the
principles it employs, transcending the limits of experience, cannot be
tested by that criterion. The arena of these endless contests is called
Metaphysic..

Max Müller, 1881:
Nor is human reason to be blamed for this. It begins with principles
which, in the course of experience, it must follow, and which are
sufficiently confirmed by experience. With these again, according to
the necessities of its nature, it rises higher and higher to more
remote conditions. But when it perceives that in this way its work
remains for ever incomplete, because the questions never cease, it
finds itself constrained to take refuge in principles which exceed
every possible experimental application, and nevertheless seem so
unobjectionable that even ordinary common sense agrees with them. Thus,
however, reason becomes involved in darkness and contradictions, from
which, no doubt, it may conclude that errors must be lurking somewhere,
but without being able to discover them, because the principles which
it follows transcend all the limits of experience and therefore
withdraw themselves from all experimental tests. It is the battle-field
of these endless controversies
which is called Metaphysic.

Norman Kemp Smith, 1929:
The perplexity into which it thus falls is not due to any fault of its
own. It begins with principles which it has no option save to employ in
the course of experience, and which this experience at the same time
abundantly justifies it in using. Rising with their aid (since it is
determined to this also by its own nature) to ever higher, ever more
remote, conditions, it soon becomes aware that in this way -the
questions never ceasing -its work must always remain incomplete; and it
therefore finds itself compelled to resort to principles which overstep
all possible empirical employment, and which yet seem so
unobjectionable that even ordinary consciousness readily accepts them.
But by this procedure human reason precipitates itself into darkness
and contradictions; and while it may indeed conjecture that these must
be in some way due to concealed errors, it is not in a position to be
able to detect them. For since the principles of which it is making use
transcend the limits of experience, they are no longer subject to any
empirical test. The battle-field of these endless controversies is
called metaphysics.

My version:
Yet no blame lies upon Reason for falling into this embarrassment. It
begins with principles, which, in the course of experience, have proved
quite indispensable and sufficiently trustworthy. Borne up with these
principles (and as demanded by its nature), it ascends to ever higher
and more remote conditions. When, though, it discovers that its work
can never be completed in this manner-as the questions never
cease-Reason is driven to seek refuge in principles which, though
transcending any possible application to experience, occasion no
distrust. Then Reason finds itself plunged into darkness and
contradictions, from which it can only infer that some-where must be
lurking errors that it can not detect, because the principles which
Reason employs, as they reach beyond experience, do not admit of
examination by trial. The battle-field of these endless conflicts is
called Metaphysics.

Comment:
'Falls.....fault" (used in Meiklejohn and copied by Smith) is to my
ears inelegant, so following Müller, I chose 'blame', using a
construction "lies upon" found in Trollope's 'The Eustace Diamonds':
"And you'll find also that she'll contrive that all the blame shall
lie upon him." Other constructions used by Trollope feature 'cast': "No
blame by such an assertion is cast upon the young Conservative aspirant
for party honours." He uses 'imputed in 'Can You Forgive Her': " He had
said no more than this-had imputed no blame to Alice-had told none
of the circumstances; but Seward had known that the girl had jilted his
friend, and had made up his mind that she must be heartless and false."
Also, "on her head": "Don't put the blame on her head"

The point is that there are many constructions one can use for
assigning 'blame'. I chose one from 'The Eustace Diamonds' because it
seemed appropriate for the metaphor, where Reason is taken as a sort of
personage.

The second sentence in the original is not excessively wordy, but all
of the translations are. I avoided that by refusing to repeat the
expression 'experience'. Müller comes close, but even his is too
wordy.

The next sentence needs considerable work. If translated literally, it
seems tautologous:

"Reason takes refuge in principles which, even though they transcend
all possible application in experience, are so innocent-seeming that
ordinary human reason (common sense) agrees with them."

Well, duh! Why include the bit about "ordinary human reason" when
'reason' is already the subject of this sentence? Why explain  that
"common sense" or "ordinary human reason" agrees with them if they seem
'innocent'?

Anyway, "die gemeine Menschenvernunft" is usually translated as "common
sense", which obscures the relationship between 'Menschenvernunft' and
'Vernunft'. 'Tis better simply to leave it out, as I did, and simply
say: "occasion no distrust". What is the English reader missing here?
Nothing!
Martin Ambuhl - 30 Oct 2006 17:59 GMT
> Why reproduce all that junk in translation? Consider the following text
> (preface) from Kant's first Kritik, 1781:
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> Comment: My version has better rhythm and is less 'clunky' than the
> others.

This is, of course, the beginning of the preface to the first edition.
People with the second edition might be confused.
You might compare these to the translation by Paul Guyer and Allen W.
Wood (Cambridge, 1998):

Human reason has the peculiar fate in one species of its cognitions that
it is burdened with questions which it cannot dismiss, since they are
given to it as problems[b] by the nature of reason itself, but which it
also cannot answer, since they transcend every capacity[c] of human reason.

[b] aufgegeben
[c] Vermögen

As for "clunkiness," I see no advantage to your version.  Some
differences to note, though, include

 Your capitalization of 'reason', missing in _all_ the other versions
screams either personification of reason or your retreat to 18th century
capitalization for an archaizing effect. It is an error.

 'Cognition' is what the passage is about and what 'Erkenntnisse'
means.  'Knowlege' (Müller, Smith, UC) is not wrong but is too broad.
It is hard to express in English the connotation of 'discovery' often
attached to 'Erkenntnisse', but it is not clear that it is necessary.

'Department of knowledge' is silly.  'Gattung' does not mean
'department'; it means 'kind', ;sort', 'genre', 'genus', or 'species'.
The choices of the translators of 'class' or 'species' are much better
than 'sphere' or 'department.'

The use of 'burdened with' for 'belästigt wird' is obviously better than
the bloodless 'called upon to consider'. UC's 'beset' is fine.

'Vermögen' is given as a footnote by Guyer and Wood for the good reason
the popular 'powers' does not adequately represent the meaning of this word.

UC's version is obviously better than (Meiklejohm, 1855).  So is
everybody else's.  It seems to me no improvement over (Max Müller, 1881)
or (Norman Kemp Smith, 1929) and definitely inferior to (Paul Guyer and
Allen W. Wood, 1998).
UC - 30 Oct 2006 18:12 GMT
> > Why reproduce all that junk in translation? Consider the following text
> > (preface) from Kant's first Kritik, 1781:
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>
> This is, of course, the beginning of the preface to the first edition.

Yes.

> People with the second edition might be confused.
> You might compare these to the translation by Paul Guyer and Allen W.
> Wood (Cambridge, 1998):

Those hacks? You must be joking.

> Human reason has the peculiar fate in one species of its cognitions that
> it is burdened with questions which it cannot dismiss, since they are
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> [b] aufgegeben
> [c] Vermögen

The whole discussion of "aufgegeben" shows that they have no idea what
they are talking about.

> As for "clunkiness," I see no advantage to your version.  Some
> differences to note, though, include
>
>   Your capitalization of 'reason', missing in _all_ the other versions
> screams either personification of reason or your retreat to 18th century
> capitalization for an archaizing effect. It is an error.

It is personification, in accord with 18th-century practice. The
preface uses Reason as an agent.

>   'Cognition' is what the passage is about and what 'Erkenntnisse'
> means.  'Knowlege' (Müller, Smith, UC) is not wrong but is too broad.

This is a preface. The reader is not ready for that, and 'cognition' is
not clearly the best choice. I have sided with Müller, who was a
native German speaker, after considerable reflection.

> It is hard to express in English the connotation of 'discovery' often
> attached to 'Erkenntnisse', but it is not clear that it is necessary.

Right.

> 'Department of knowledge' is silly.

It's idiomatic 18th century language.

> 'Gattung' does not mean
> 'department'; it means 'kind', ;sort', 'genre', 'genus', or 'species'.

Right, but "department of knowledge" is the idiomatic term in English.

> The choices of the translators of 'class' or 'species' are much better
> than 'sphere' or 'department.'

Nope. They're hopelessly literal. I consulted an actual preface to see.
Also, see any old Websters dictionary. "Department of Knowledge" is
standard.

Look at the following:

"It is vain, then, if it were desirable, to avoid touching, or even
entering to some extent into, other apparently distinct departments of
knowledge."

>From LATIN LEXICON LATIN-ENGLISH AND ENGLISH-LATIN EDITED BY F. P.
LEVERETT COMPILED CHIEFLY FROM THE MAGNUM TOTIUS LATINITATIS LEXICON OF
FACCIOLATI AND FORCELLINI, AND THE GERMAN WORKS OF SCHILLER AND
LUENEMANN

NEW PRINTING FROM THE ORIGINAL
THE PETER REILLY COMPANY PHILADELPHIA 1931

I do my homework. Guyer and Wood? You cannot be serious.

> The use of 'burdened with' for 'belästigt wird' is obviously better than
> the bloodless 'called upon to consider'. UC's 'beset' is fine.

I like it better.

> 'Vermögen' is given as a footnote by Guyer and Wood for the good reason
> the popular 'powers' does not adequately represent the meaning of this word.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> or (Norman Kemp Smith, 1929) and definitely inferior to (Paul Guyer and
> Allen W. Wood, 1998).

Guyer and Wood are hacks who have no business doing translations.
They're hopelessly incompetent.
UC - 30 Oct 2006 18:20 GMT
> > > Why reproduce all that junk in translation? Consider the following text
> > > (preface) from Kant's first Kritik, 1781:
[quoted text clipped - 123 lines]
> Guyer and Wood are hacks who have no business doing translations.
> They're hopelessly incompetent.

By the way, the Leverett Latin lexicon  dates from about 1836.

http://www.richardwolf.de/latein/leverett.htm
UC - 30 Oct 2006 18:37 GMT
> 'Department of knowledge' is silly.

You don't translate the 'words' but what the words refer to.

'Department of knowledge" is standard (idiomatic) English academic
language. Kant is referring to 'metaphysics' by this expression.
UC - 30 Oct 2006 22:28 GMT
> > Why reproduce all that junk in translation? Consider the following text
> > (preface) from Kant's first Kritik, 1781:
[quoted text clipped - 59 lines]
>
> 'Department of knowledge' is silly.

"The Editors are fully aware that there is no specifically Catholic
science, that mathematics, physiology and other branches of human
knowledge are neither Catholic, Jewish, nor Protestant; but when it is
commonly asserted that Catholic principles are an obstacle to
scientific research, it seems not only proper but needful to register
what and how much Catholics have contributed to every department of
knowledge."

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/index.html

The 'departments' of a university are actually supposed to represent
"departments of knowledge"

Main Entry:department
Pronunciation:d**p*rtm*nt, d**-, -p*t-
Function:noun
Inflected Form:-s
Etymology:French d*partement, from Middle French departement, from
departir to divide + -ment * more at DEPART

1 : appointed sphere or province (as of activity or thought) *Pope's
own peculiar department of literature T.B.Macaulay*
2 a : a discrete territorial or functional division or section of a
larger organized or systematized whole *good taste T goes into every
department of life Elspeth Betjeman*: as(1) : the largest
administrative subdivision in France and some of the French colonies
presided over by a prefect(2) [American Spanish departamento, from
French d*partement] : a similar territorial division in some Central
and So. American countries  b : an administrative division or branch of
a national or municipal government *the welfare department*  c : a
discrete branch of instruction or study in a school or college *the
English department* *the department of modern languages*  d (1) : a
division of a business concern handling a major function *the
accounting department*(2) : a division of a store handling a distinct
class of merchandise *the furniture department* *dry goods department*
e (1) : a territorial subdivision for the administration, training, and
tactical control of military units stationed within its limits(2)
usually capitalized   : such a former subdivision of the possessions of
the United States outside the continental limits
3 : a regular column or feature devoted to a particular subject in a
publication or radio program

 'Gattung' does not mean
> 'department'; it means 'kind', ;sort', 'genre', 'genus', or 'species'.
> The choices of the translators of 'class' or 'species' are much better
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> or (Norman Kemp Smith, 1929) and definitely inferior to (Paul Guyer and
> Allen W. Wood, 1998).
UC - 30 Oct 2006 22:44 GMT
> 'Department of knowledge' is silly.  'Gattung' does not mean
> 'department'; it means 'kind', ;sort', 'genre', 'genus', or 'species'.
> The choices of the translators of 'class' or 'species' are much better
> than 'sphere' or 'department.'

James Madison to W. T. Barry, 4 Aug. 1822:

"Its rapid growth & signal prosperity in this character have afforded
me much pleasure; which is not a little enhanced by the enlightened
patriotism which is now providing for the State a Plan of Education
embracing every class of Citizens, and every grade & department of
Knowledge. No error is more certain than the one proceeding from a
hasty & superficial view of the subject: that the people at large have
no interest in the establishment of Academies, Colleges, and
Universities, where a few only, and those not of the poorer classes can
obtain for their sons the advantages of superior education. It is
thought to be unjust that all should be taxed for the benefit of a
part, and that too the part least needing it."

http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/v1ch18s35.html
UC - 30 Oct 2006 22:45 GMT
> 'Department of knowledge' is silly.  'Gattung' does not mean
> 'department'; it means 'kind', ;sort', 'genre', 'genus', or 'species'.
> The choices of the translators of 'class' or 'species' are much better
> than 'sphere' or 'department.'

James Madison to W. T. Barry, 4 Aug. 1822:

"Its rapid growth & signal prosperity in this character have afforded
me much pleasure; which is not a little enhanced by the enlightened
patriotism which is now providing for the State a Plan of Education
embracing every class of Citizens, and every grade & department of
Knowledge. No error is more certain than the one proceeding from a
hasty & superficial view of the subject: that the people at large have
no interest in the establishment of Academies, Colleges, and
Universities, where a few only, and those not of the poorer classes can
obtain for their sons the advantages of superior education. It is
thought to be unjust that all should be taxed for the benefit of a
part, and that too the part least needing it."

http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/v1ch18s35.html
Robert Lieblich - 31 Oct 2006 03:36 GMT
> > 'Department of knowledge' is silly.  'Gattung' does not mean
> > 'department'; it means 'kind', ;sort', 'genre', 'genus', or 'species'.
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/v1ch18s35.html

It struck me as remarkable that anyone both would and could give you a
serious critique of your English translation of a passage from Kant,
even given that you had cross-posted it to alt.usage.german.  It
strikes me as even more remarkable that you have posted no fewer than
six responses, so far, to that one critique.

I lack the knowlege of German to weigh in on the merits, but I wonder
if you have a metaphorical mirror in which you can examine your
conduct, and whether you might then contemplate whether sneering at
the one person who has bothered to give you an educated and considered
response is the best way to profit from the experience.  You could
have said much the same thing in substance by thanking Brother Martin
for his thoughtful resopnse, expressing polite disagreement with those
points you don't agree with, and perhaps asking a question or two to
help develop the discussion.

If this be ad hominem, make the most of it.

Signature

Bob Lieblich
Channeling Emily Post

UC - 31 Oct 2006 04:17 GMT
> > > 'Department of knowledge' is silly.  'Gattung' does not mean
> > > 'department'; it means 'kind', ;sort', 'genre', 'genus', or 'species'.
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>
> If this be ad hominem, make the most of it.

You must underdstand that few are qualified to judge this (my) work. I
wanted to illustrate how important a native knowledge of English is in
translating Kant. Most of these criticisms are old, and almost all of
them are wrong. 'Gattung' may mean 'genus' and  'Erkennisse' may mean
'cognitions' in isolation, but "einer Gattung ihrer Erkenntnisse" means
"in one department of knowledge".  Full stop.

Most modern Germans are utterly unqualified to translate Kant into
English or even to criticisze such a translation, unless they have a
native knowledge of 18th & 19th century academic English as well.
You'll note that I found several examples of "department of knowledge"
from the early 19th century. The collocation goes back much farther
than that.

Secondly, again, most Germans tend to want to translate every word,
even when such a practice results in redundancy or absurd English. That
was the principle point I wanted to discuss. In my translation, I have
abbreviated the sentence:

"When, though, it discovers that its work can never be completed in
this manner-as the questions never cease-Reason is driven to seek
refuge in principles which, though
transcending any possible application to experience, occasion no
distrust. "

Why? The parts that are excised from the German simply add nothing but
confusion. You'll note also that I repositioned "in this manner" to a
point where it is idiomatic in English. None of the other translators
bothered to do this.

"Da sie aber gewahr wird, daß auf diese Art ihr Geschäft jederzeit
unvollendet bleiben müsse, weil die Fragen niemals aufhören, so sieht
sie sich genötigt, zu Grundsätzen ihre Zuflucht zu nehmen, die allen
möglichen Erfahrungsgebrauch überschreiten und gleichwohl so
unverdächtig scheinen, daß auch die gemeine Menschenvernunft damit im
Einverständnisse steht."

Consider Kemp Smith's version:

"Rising with their aid (since it is determined to this also by its own
nature) to ever higher, ever more remote, conditions, it soon becomes
aware that in this way -the
questions never ceasing -its work must always remain incomplete; and it
therefore finds itself compelled to resort to principles which overstep
all possible empirical employment, and which yet seem so
unobjectionable that even ordinary consciousness readily accepts them."

He at least tried to get around the redundancy of 'Vernunft' and
'Menschenvernunft' by rendering the latter as "ordinary consciousness".
But why bother with that at all? If, as Kant says, reason "takes
refuge" (my expression) in these principles, why bother with it again
by adding that reason 'accepts' (Smith) or "agrees with" (Müller)
them? We have already been told that reason has taken refuge in them,
so what more needs to be said, except that they give us no reason to
distust them?

Meiklejohn gave me the clue to drop this, with his translation "while
they are regarded by common sense without distrust". He saw the
redundancy and decided to do away with it. And why say that "common
sense" accepts them because it sees nothing wrong with them? 'Common
sense is indeed one of the translations of "die gemeine
Menschenvernunft" but Kant is repeating 'Vernunft', which again is lost
if we translate it as "common sense". So, again, what's the point. DROP
IT!

Note also how wordy Smith's version of this sentence is compared to
mine:

"Borne up with these principles (and as demanded by its nature), it
ascends to ever higher and more remote conditions."

Rising with their aid (since it is determined to this also by its own
nature) to ever higher, ever more remote, conditions [he fuses this
sentence, which ends here in the German, to the next]

Why take ELEVEN words to say what can be said just as well if not
better in SIX?

"(since it is determined to this also by its own nature"
"(and as demanded by its nature)"

when the German is only EIGHT:

(wie es auch ihre Natur mit sich bringt).
Robert Lieblich - 31 Oct 2006 04:25 GMT
> > > > 'Department of knowledge' is silly.  'Gattung' does not mean
> > > > 'department'; it means 'kind', ;sort', 'genre', 'genus', or 'species'.
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>
> You must underdstand that few are qualified to judge this (my) work.

[long snip]

Then what makes you think you're going to find such a person on
Usenet?

I was, in any event, addressing your conduct, not the details of the
translation.  I am woefully unqualified to discuss the latter, so I
limited myself to the former. Your going on at further length about
what a great job you've done (which is what I snipped) is of no
interest to me -- I can more-or-less follow, but I'm powerless to
choose sides.  What I can see is that you are busily engaged in
showing off, to the point that when someone comes along who actually
knows enough to respond, you blow him off lest he steal attention from
you.

My guess is that your ego is very fragile, but then I'm not qualified
for that sort of judgment either.

Signature

Bob Lieblich
Apparently not qualified for much of anything

UC - 31 Oct 2006 04:46 GMT
> > > > > 'Department of knowledge' is silly.  'Gattung' does not mean
> > > > > 'department'; it means 'kind', ;sort', 'genre', 'genus', or 'species'.
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
> Then what makes you think you're going to find such a person on
> Usenet?

I was pointing out the need for idiomatic English and showing how it's
done.

> I was, in any event, addressing your conduct, not the details of the
> translation.  I am woefully unqualified to discuss the latter, so I
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> knows enough to respond, you blow him off lest he steal attention from
> you.

But he doesn't. He thinks he does, and I have dealt with German
academics on these issues before. They are unreasonable and completely
uninformed about what a translation is supposed to do (not be, DO; the
distinction is important). One of them told me, after I pointed out
that there was no point at all in a pedantic translation of Kant, that
it was not possible to be TOO pedantic! We had fiery words after that
comment!

> My guess is that your ego is very fragile, but then I'm not qualified
> for that sort of judgment either.

Er... 'judgement'.
Robert Lieblich - 31 Oct 2006 04:55 GMT
[ ... ]

> > My guess is that your ego is very fragile, but then I'm not qualified
> > for that sort of judgment either.
>
> Er... 'judgement'.

Proving my point.

If you want to use British spellings, okay -- use British spellings.
But to suggest that an American poster using an American spelling has
done anything requiring any sort of comment is, as I said, proof of my
point.

You'd do both of us a favour if you abandoned such manoeuvres.

Signature

Bob Lieblich
Not expecting an adknowledgment that he was right

UC - 31 Oct 2006 04:58 GMT
> [ ... ]
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> You'd do both of us a favour if you abandoned such manoeuvres.

You're American? I did not know. Even so, I hate the American spelling
of that word. Let's talk anon, on the morrow, mayhaps. The eve is fled.
Robert Lieblich - 31 Oct 2006 05:03 GMT
> > [ ... ]
> >
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> You're American? I did not know.

I make no secret of it.

> Even so, I hate the American spelling of that word.

This isn't aesthetics but a matter of adhering to convention.  Which I
do.  I don't complain when you don't.  You shouldn't complain when I
do.

> Let's talk anon, on the morrow, mayhaps. The eve is fled.

Shouldn't that be "mayhap"?  Anyway, I'm leaving town for a few days.
I have a couple of Discworld novels (still haven't run out of them) to
keep me from missing Usenet.  Feel free to proceed without me.

Signature

Bob Lieblich
Tally Ho!

UC - 01 Nov 2006 15:37 GMT
> > > > > > 'Department of knowledge' is silly.  'Gattung' does not mean
> > > > > > 'department'; it means 'kind', ;sort', 'genre', 'genus', or 'species'.
[quoted text clipped - 67 lines]
>
> Er... 'judgement'.

Here is what he said:

"19. Mai 2003

Sehr geehrter Herr Scarpitti!

Hinsichtlich des "Pedantischen" kann ich Ihnen nicht zustimmen. In
philosophischer Hinsicht kann eine Übersetzung gar nicht pedantisch
genug sein."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I had also communicated with Wood about an error I had found in his
translation. The e-mail is below. His reply is (of course) dead wrong.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Michael Scarpitti

Subject:  missen und messen

Dr Wood: I have found what appears to be an error in your translation,
in the
section on the criticism of the cosmological proof, in the paragraph
which
begins "Die unbedingte Nothwendigkeit..." and ends with "...zu lassen."
(I
believe around A 610-612).  The sentence affected (the 2nd) begins:

"Selbst die Ewigkeit, so schauderhaft..."

The phrase affected is: "... ; denn sie mißt nur die Dauer der Dinge,
aber trägt sie nicht."

First of all, the "mißt" does not mean "missen" but "messen", even
though the 3rd person singular has the same form in both cases. "To
lack" makes no sense at all here.  Secondly, the "sie" refers not to
"die Dinge" but to "die Dauer" or "die Dauer der Dinge." In either
case, the translation should be "it", not "them".

Michael Scarpitti

-------------------------------------------------------------------

From:  Allen W. Wood
Sent:  12 February 1998  3:12 PM
To:  'Michael Scarpitti'
Subject:  RE: missen und messen

1)  Timeless eternity lacks duration (in the medieval phrase, it is
tota
simul - simultaneously whole). Perhaps eternity also measures duration
-
constitutes its ontological measure, in some sense; but it seemed to us
that
the fact that eternity lacks duration is more perplexing, paradoxical
and
awesome to us time-bound creatures than the fact of its measuring
duration,
which may be why you thought it had to be nonsense.  But the
paradoxically and
awesomeness of a necessary being is precisely K's point in the passage,
so we
thought the verb "missen" is more likely intended than "messen".

2)  It is impossible to say on merely syntactical grounds whether 'sie'
refers to Dauer or Dinge, since it can either be a singular feminine
pronoun
or a plural pronoun; but if it refers to the latter, as we supposed,
then it
should be translated 'them', and not 'it' (as we did).  Our reason for
choosing
'things' as the referent is that the thought that eternity bears or
supports
things seemed to us more straightforward than the thought that it bears
or
supports their duration - though the latter thought is also one K might
have
here. It's not clear to that the two thoughts are very different,
though, which
may be why K permitted a grammatically ambiguous pronoun.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
UC - 31 Oct 2006 04:52 GMT
Here's my full review of Guyer-Wood, prepared for Amazon:

Please note that I am reviewing only the Guyer-Wood translation, not
the work itself.

There are four previous English translations of this work: Francis
Haywood (1838, revised 1848); JMD Meiklejohn (1855); F Max Müller
(1881, revised 1896); and NK Smith (1929). All of these (save the
first) have considerable merit. Meiklejohn shows considerable skill in
making Kant speak idiomatic English. As Müller points out, however,
Meiklejohn not infrequently flounders in Kant's monstrous gothic
sentences, and loses the thread of meaning. As a native German speaker
and scholar of language, and the son of a poet, Müller's 1881 version
set the standard for this work for intelligibility, clarity, and
readability. Unfortunately, his 1896 revision, made under the influence
of the more radical of the neo-Kantians, is somewhat less satisfactory.
He unwisely deferred to them in accepting highly questionable
modifications to the text. Smith's version borrowed heavily from
Meiklejohn's version stylistically, often copying passages almost
verbatim, and all too often where Meiklejohn had grievously erred in
understanding the text, and Müller had not!

Smith's version has been standard for many years, but even a cursory
comparison of Smith with Müller will show that the latter often has a
clearer grasp of the German, and provides a better expression of the
key concepts. Smith had also come under the influence of the radical
neo-Kantians, and his translation suffers severely from that.

Prospective readers of a great philosopher's work come to the work with
certain expectations. They have the right to expect - nay demand -
prose that reflects that greatness. Kant's great work is a work of
literature, and must be respected as any other work of literature. He
often employs literary devices (such as metaphor) to make his point
clearer. Sensitivity to idiomatic English style must be paramount in
the translation of so difficult a work as this.

In short: Translating a work of this kind calls for special talents.
Guyer and Wood, unfortunately, do not possess these talents.

They have no credentials in literary translation, translation theory,
or semiotics. Despite this, they have installed themselves as General
Editors of the Cambridge Kant translation series.

They expressly affirm that they have tried not to 'interpret' as they
translate, but to translate 'literally', and leave interpretation to
the reader. The difficulty is that such a stance is ideological, rather
than practical, and as such it is unsupportable.

Their translation follows the original in a slavish, word-for-word
fashion. The results are wooden and unnatural, and often
unintelligible. For a truly successful translation of a work such as
this, it is absolutely necessary to interpret, and to rewrite the
interpretation in idiomatic English, specifically late 18th-century
philosophical English. Often, complete reconstruction of the sentence
is necessary. Guyer and Wood never do this, and are in fact incapable
of doing this.

There is no excuse for allowing a translation to be unintelligible or
unidiomatic. If there are textual problems in the original (and in this
text there are many) the translator must attempt to resolve them.
Simply passing them along for the reader to dispose of (even though the
reader may be utterly incapable of 'interpreting' the resulting
gibberish), in the name of 'accuracy', is a mistaken notion. It does
no-one any good. The translator, not the author, will be blamed.

As a consequence, the Guyer-Wood translation is the worst ever of this
work, except for the very first one from 1838, by Francis Haywood, and
for the same reasons, cited by JMD Meiklejohn in his translation of the
Critique, published in 1855. Speaking of Haywood's primitive, literal,
word-for-word approach, Meiklejohn remarks:

"A translator ought to be an interpreting intellect between the author
and the reader; but in this case the only interpreting medium has been
the dictionary."

The same can be said of the Guyer and Wood translation.

It is interesting that Guyer and Wood, in their preface, praise the
very Haywood translation denounced by Meiklejohn, because (they say) it
was so 'literal' (folks, I'm not making this up!).

This is quite revealing of the incompetence of these two translators.
The best translation of this work was that of F. Max Müller, in
1881/1896. How do I know? I checked them all!

Müller's 1896 version is available online at:

http://oll.libertyfund.org/Home3/HTML.php?recordID=0330

Here's an example, from one of the most famous passages in this work:

"Die leichte Taube, indem sie im freien Fluge die Luft teilt, deren
Widerstand sie fühlt, könnte die Vorstellung fassen, daß es ihr im
luftleeren Raum noch viel besser gelingen werde. Ebenso verließ Plato
die Sinnenwelt, weil sie dem Verstande so vielfältige Hindernisse
legt, und wagte sich jenseit derselben auf den Flügeln der Ideen, in
den leeren Raum des reinen Verstandes. Er bemerkte nicht, daß er durch
seine Bemühungen keinen Weg gewönne, denn er hatte keinen Widerhalt,
gleichsam zur Unterlage, worauf er sich steifen, und woran er seine
Kräfte anwenden konnte, um den Verstand von der Stelle zu bringen. Es
ist aber ein gewöhnliches Schicksal der menschlichen Vernunft in der
Spekulation ihr Gebäude so früh, wie möglich, fertigzumachen, und
hintennach allererst zu untersuchen, ob auch der Grund dazu gut gelegt
sei. Alsdann aber werden allerlei Beschönigungen herbeigesucht, um uns
wegen dessen Tüchtigkeit zu trösten, oder eine solche späte und
gefährliche Prüfung abzuweisen."

Here's the Guyer-Wood translation:

"The light dove, in free flight cutting through the air the resistance
of which it feels, could get the idea that it could do even better in
airless space. Likewise, Plato abandoned the world of the senses,
because it imposed so many hindrances for the understanding, and dared
to go beyond it on the wings of his ideas, in the empty space of pure
understanding. He did not notice that he made no headway by all his
efforts, for he had no resistance, no support, as it were, by which he
could stiffen himself, and to which he could apply his powers in order
to get his understanding off the ground. It is, however, a customary
fate of human reason in speculation to finish its edifice as early as
possible and only then to investigate whether ground has been
adequately prepared for it. But at that point all sorts of excuses will
be sought for to assure us of its sturdiness or to refuse such a late
and dangerous an investigation."

No native English speaker would ever write an original sentence like
this:

"The light dove, in free flight cutting through the air the resistance
of which it feels, could get the idea that it could do even better in
airless space."

This is a preposterous translation, and there is no justification for
such dreadful English prose, no matter what the intentions or ideology
of the translator. This is simply gibberish.

Other points:
"Hindernisse legt" [first edition] is idiomatically "posed hindrances".
The characteristic insensitivity to idiomatic usage displayed by
Guyer-Wood reveals itself in their choice of "imposed". The proper
combination is "posing hindrances", not "opposing" or "imposing".

"...worauf er sich steifen": Their choice of 'stiffen himself' is
ludicrous. Kant here is comparing the understanding to a bird launching
itself into flight from its perch. The bird naturally tightens its
muscles and presses against the perch (forming the fulcrum for the
lever of its legs) to do this. The correct translation is 'brace
himself'.

The Guyer-Wood team again show their insensitivity to English usage by
translating the expression "gewöhnliches Schicksal" as "customary
fate", which is un-idiomatic and totally absurd. 'Fate' has nothing to
do with 'custom'; in fact, this is an oxymoron. Fate has to do with
things that are beyond men's control. What is 'customary' has to do
with what men habitually do. (The correct choices include "usual fate"
or perhaps "common fate".) This absurdity appears to be a direct
consequence of Guyer and Wood's stated preference for using a single
English term to render a single German term. But it results in
absurdities like 'customary fate'.

Here's my suggested translation of this passage:

"Parting the soft air with her wings and feeling its resistance, the
light dove might imagine that her efforts would be better served in
airless space. Abandoning the sphere of the senses because it posed so
many hindrances to the understanding, Plato ventured beyond experience,
on the wings of his ideas, into the empty space of the pure
understanding. He did not observe, though, that even with all his
efforts, nought was to be gained, for he had no resistance, no fulcrum,
as it were, against which he could brace himself and apply his powers,
to propel the understanding from its perch. Indeed, it is the usual
fate of human reason in the thrall of speculation to finish its edifice
as soon as possible, and only then to investigate whether the
foundation had been made firm. To ease our doubts of its solidity, we
then mark all the excellencies of our handiwork; or we seek excuses to
reject altogether such a threatening and belated inspection."

In the version presented here, the German "ebenso" ("in just this way")
is transformed from a semantic form (a word) to a grammatical
structure. The first and second sentences, "Parting the soft air with
her wings..." and "Abandoning the sphere of the senses..." now run
parallel in their grammatical form. This reinforces in the reader's
mind the parallel between the dove's thoughts and Plato's thoughts. We
no longer therefore have any need to say "in just this way". It has
been moved from the semantic "stream" to the syntactical. This parallel
form is not present in the original, strictly speaking, but this
construction is clearly warranted by the semantics of the piece. The
"ebenso" is no longer stated, but performed.

It seems necessary to add 'the thrall of' to 'in speculation' to fill
out the sense obviously intended by Kant. A literal translation is
confusing.

The German original, because of its inflection, provides information
that cannot be directly translated. `Die leichte Taube' means `the
light (female) dove'. Since the order of the sentence is substantially
changed, and because English does not have genders, I attempt to place
that information back at the beginning of the sentence by using the
phrase `with her wings'. So, right from the beginning we know that we
are dealing with a female winged creature, just as the German reader
does. The expression `with her wings' is also intended to account for
the original's `im freien Fluge' (in free flight) which is not
literally translated in my version. The reason it is handled this way
is because of the differences between German and English. It also
anticipates the 'wings of his ideas' in the following sentence.

Translation of one language into another requires thought and
interpretation. It is not a mechanical process. The words are not
numbers that can be processed as if through a computer, though Guyer
and Wood approach it that way. For that reason, Guyer and Wood simply
have no business translating anything. They are incompetent; among
other things, they import medieval meanings into Kant's text, something
for which they have no legitimate basis. This work demands a
sensitivity to language, and an ability to write in an English style
that is readable. Guyer and Wood lack that ability.

They have stated that their translation is intended for academics and
scholars. No translation, though, can ever take the place of the
original for scholarly purposes, no matter how carefully and
scrupulously the work is performed. Translations are suitable only for
introductory to intermediate classes. Anyone attempting serious study
of a work of this kind must refer to the original, and that means
learning to cope with Kant's somewhat idiosyncratic German.

Because Guyer and Wood do not understand the limitations of the process
of translation, their work is misguided. That in turn has led them to
make unfortunate choices in their translation. For this reason, and
because they themselves have no apparent literary talent, this
translation cannot be recommended.

             ----------NOT RECOMMENDED------------
Robert Lieblich - 31 Oct 2006 04:58 GMT
[Not one word that I wrote appeared in your lengthy post]

> Here's my full review of Guyer-Wood, prepared for Amazon:

I didn't ask for it, and I didn't read it.

> Please note that I am reviewing only the Guyer-Wood translation, not
> the work itself.

How stupid do we look?

No further comment.
UC - 31 Oct 2006 14:41 GMT
> [Not one word that I wrote appeared in your lengthy post]
>
> > Here's my full review of Guyer-Wood, prepared for Amazon:
>
> I didn't ask for it, and I didn't read it.

It is a critque of their approach and it involves English. It's good
reading.

> > Please note that I am reviewing only the Guyer-Wood translation, not
> > the work itself.
>
> How stupid do we look?

Che?

> No further comment.

Warum?
Eric Schwartz - 31 Oct 2006 18:41 GMT
> > [Not one word that I wrote appeared in your lengthy post]
> >
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> It is a critque of their approach and it involves English.

Perhaps; I'm still not convinced that what you write is actually
English in any recognizable sense of the word.

> It's good reading.

This is a highly debatable proposition, to put it mildly.

-=Eric
UC - 01 Nov 2006 00:39 GMT
> > > [Not one word that I wrote appeared in your lengthy post]
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> This is a highly debatable proposition, to put it mildly.

Read it and see for yourself. You just might learn something.

> -=Eric
t4a - 03 Nov 2006 17:54 GMT
UC schrieb:

> Secondly, again, most Germans tend to want to translate every word,
> even when such a practice results in redundancy or absurd English. That
> was the principle point I wanted to discuss. In my translation, I have
> abbreviated the sentence:

It appears to me you also tend to want to write more than necessary.
One could assume German descent.

(Friday fun)
UC - 03 Nov 2006 18:01 GMT
> UC schrieb:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> It appears to me you also tend to want to write more than necessary.
> One could assume German descent.

Nein. Ich bin Italianisch-Amerikan.

> (Friday fun)
Robert Lieblich - 04 Nov 2006 01:21 GMT
> Secondly, again, most Germans tend to want to translate every word,
> even when such a practice results in redundancy or absurd English. That
> was the principle point

Redundancy!

> I wanted to discuss.

[ ... ]
Lars Enderin - 04 Nov 2006 10:48 GMT
Robert Lieblich skrev:

>> Secondly, again, most Germans tend to want to translate every word,
>> even when such a practice results in redundancy or absurd English. That
>> was the principle point
>
> Redundancy!

Didn't you mean to write Principal?
Robert Lieblich - 04 Nov 2006 15:40 GMT
> Robert Lieblich skrev:
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> >
> Didn't you mean to write Principal?

First, I didn't write it. UC did.  Second, the capital letter is
incorrect.

Third, of course it should be "principal."  That was my point.

Signature

Bob Lieblich
The one and only; accept no substitutes

Lars Enderin - 04 Nov 2006 16:37 GMT
Robert Lieblich skrev:
>> Robert Lieblich skrev:
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Third, of course it should be "principal."  That was my point.

Why did you write "Redundancy" then?
Robert Lieblich - 04 Nov 2006 16:42 GMT
> Robert Lieblich skrev:
> >> Robert Lieblich skrev:
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> >
> Why did you write "Redundancy" then?

Because "principle" (sic) and "point" overlap in meaning.  I was
trying to be funny.  You'd think that after John Kerry's example I'd
know better.

Signature

Bob Lieblich
No Rodney Dengerfield

Lars Enderin - 04 Nov 2006 17:05 GMT
Robert Lieblich skrev:
>> Robert Lieblich skrev:
>>>> Robert Lieblich skrev:
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> trying to be funny.  You'd think that after John Kerry's example I'd
> know better.

Ok, I get it now. I'm surprised that so many people misspell "principal"
or one of its homonyms.
UC - 04 Nov 2006 19:04 GMT
> Robert Lieblich skrev:
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> >
> Didn't you mean to write Principal?

Yes, of course.
UC - 31 Oct 2006 04:41 GMT
> > > 'Department of knowledge' is silly.  'Gattung' does not mean
> > > 'department'; it means 'kind', ;sort', 'genre', 'genus', or 'species'.
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>
> If this be ad hominem, make the most of it.

Two further points before retiring for the evening. I was in
communication with Allen Wood and Paul Guyer several years before their
translation appeared, and we discussed some limited collaboration, as I
had prepared translations of the prefaces in 1991 or so, before I
became aware that they were working on a new translation. Wood and I
exchanged some materials (he sent me his translation of the first
preface and I sent him mine). It was intended to be of mutual benefit,
and he promised at least to credit me in his acknowledgements with
making this minor contribution, even if he decided not to incorporate
much, if anything, from my translations of the prefaces into his final
product; this he did not do. He did, however, see fit to acknowledge
students who merely attended his classes over the last 20 years or so.
So, that's the kind of hypocrite Allen Wood is.

Anyone who has seriously studied the history of this work in English
(as I have) must be aware of the difficulties the English reader faces.
In any event, a translation of an 18th century German work must bve
clothed the English of its period, not that of the 20th century. After
all, students who read Hume and Locke do not have 'modernized' versions
of those works, and since Kant is writing in reply to Locke and Hume,
it makes no sense to translate his work using language that Hume and
Locke could not have understood!

What to cut and what to add are always delicate judgements. Tomorrow I
shall post a further example of the Guyer-Wood incompetence.

For Martin to throw Guyer and Wood in my face is more than an insult.
They are incompetent fools who could not translate their way out of a
paper bag.

You may note my (Michael Scarpitti) review of their work at amazon.com:

http://www.amazon.com/Critique-Pure-Reason-Immanuel-Kant/dp/0521657296/sr=8-1/qi
d=1162265991/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-6754314-2433609?ie=UTF8&s=books


I had to abridge this. Tomorrow, I shall post the whole original review.
 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2012 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.