Question about tenses
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James - 11 Nov 2006 10:30 GMT Could I ask for some grammar expert's advice here, please?
I can identify the errors in the following sentences, but I also want to explain why they are errors and to name the correct tense that should be used.
Assistance much appreciated, thanks.
a) It's high time we will finish it.
b) I can't come to the movie tonight because I will go to the theatre with John.
c) I've been to Japan three years ago.
d) He asked me what can he do for me.
James
Mark Wallace - 11 Nov 2006 10:46 GMT > Could I ask for some grammar expert's advice here, please? > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > a) It's high time we will finish it. This should use the subjunctive "that we finish it", rather than a future nuance. If you wish to leave the "that" out, no problem: "It's high time we finish it".
> b) I can't come to the movie tonight because I will go to the theatre with > John. This talks about plans. We use the Present Continuous to talk about plans: "~~ because I am going to the theatre with John."
> c) I've been to Japan three years ago. The "three years ago" means you are talking about an action that is finished, and can never happen again (You can never "go to Japan three years ago" again), so use the Simple Past: "I went to Japan three years ago."
> d) He asked me what can he do for me. You're using interrogative word order, in a clause that is not a question. Put the subject in front of the verb: "He asked me what he can do for me."
Adrian Bailey - 12 Nov 2006 22:16 GMT > > Could I ask for some grammar expert's advice here, please? > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > future nuance. If you wish to leave the "that" out, no problem: "It's > high time we finish it". I disagree with you and Eric here. "It's (high/about) time" takes the backshift: "It's time you stopped smoking." "It's time we went home." "It's time we finished it."
Adrian
Paul {Hamilton Rooney} - 12 Nov 2006 23:13 GMT >"It's time we finished it." I agree, but how do you explain/describe that to a learner?
Adrian Bailey - 13 Nov 2006 20:41 GMT > >"It's time we finished it." > > I agree, but how do you explain/describe that to a learner? Some authors call it the Unreal Past, and it's often taught at the same time as other backshift constructions, ie. reported speech and conditionals. The backshift isn't a subjunctive in form, but it is in intent; some languages use the subjunctive in these situations.
"The past simple tense is used for something unreal or wished-for. Expressions using the past tense in this way are: I wish; as if; if only; would to God; suppose; it's (high) time; I'd rather." W Stannard Allen, Living English Structure.
Notice that some backshift constructions allow the present tense to be used, eg. "I feel as if my head was/is on fire." "He said he was/is ill." "It's time" isn't one of them.
Adrian
Eric Walker - 14 Nov 2006 04:19 GMT [...]
> Some authors call it the Unreal Past, and it's often taught at the same time > as other backshift constructions, ie. reported speech and conditionals. The [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > would to God; suppose; it's (high) time; I'd rather." W Stannard Allen, > Living English Structure. I have no idea what Mr. Allen is on about. Standard grammar texts (such as Curme) clearly show a subjunctive past; that it is, for regular verbs, the same as the simple past doesn't mean it's not a subjunctive, unless one adheres to that curious doctrine that grammatical forms not manifest in a distinctive inflection don't exist (which is like saying "If I were" is the subjunctive, but "If we were" is not).
> Notice that some backshift constructions allow the present tense to be used, > eg. "I feel as if my head was/is on fire." "He said he was/is ill." "I feel as if my head was [is] on fire"?? I feel as if my head were on fire when I see that sort of casting.
"He said he was ill" is mandated (and "He said he is ill" forbidden) by the Sequence of Tenses rule: a past indicative has to be followed by a past indicative, with only a few exceptions (propositions that are universally or customarily true, propositions referencing activities still in progress, and a few less common others). That rule often leads to, ahem, _curious_ castings ("I just asked him and he said he *was* ill"), but for time long past and the near to middle future, it is the Rule.
Eric Walker - 13 Nov 2006 00:24 GMT [...]
> I disagree with you and Eric here. "It's (high/about) time" takes the > backshift: > "It's time you stopped smoking." > "It's time we went home." > "It's time we finished it." I can never be sure about the distribution timing of posts I make out of Google, so I can't know if one i made a ways downthread was available when you wrote that. The short of it is that one can use either form ("It's time we finish/ed this"), but with slightly different shadings: the past form is the more normal, and suggests an ordinary, deliberate statement; the present form is less modest in tone and suggests an emphatic statement. I agree that the -ed form is more common and natural, but was trying to stay as close as possible to the original casting.
Compare the "feel" of:
"It's time we finished this."
"It's time we finish this!"
The exclam, of course, pushes the point, but what I'm saying is that the form of the words almost demands some such mark of emphasis. There are other examples in my earlier post, but compare also "We might as well be done with it" to "We may as well be done with it!" It's easy to accept the exclam on the second, but one tagged on the first would seem misplaced.
Mark Wallace - 13 Nov 2006 17:04 GMT >>> Could I ask for some grammar expert's advice here, please? >>> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > "It's time we went home." > "It's time we finished it." I find myself in the uncomfortable position of agreeing with Walker, in that "it's time we finish this" seems to carry more determination.
Looking at it from a different angle, though, it may well be a bastardisation of "it's time we finished" and "it's time to finish" -- which would have made it an "error" when it first came into use.
However, it's in common enough use by plenty of different people now ( http://www.google.com/search?q=%22%69%74%27%73%20%74%69%6d%65%20%77%65%22 has a good mix of both constructions), so it's "normal" English.
Eric Walker - 11 Nov 2006 11:59 GMT > I can identify the errors in the following sentences, but I also want to > explain why they are errors and to name the correct tense that should be > used.
> a) It's high time we will finish it. Verbs have several qualities, of which tense is only one. For "finite" verbs, the full collection is voice, mood, tense, aspect, number, and person; the infinite forms--the participle, the infinitive, and the gerund--have fewer limiting qualities.
The moods include the indicative, which we use for ordinary factual or interrogative statements; the imperative, which we use for commands, requests, warnings, and the like; and the subjunctive, which we use for representing something as not actually belonging to the domain of fact or reality, but as merely existent in the mind of the speaker as a desire, wish, volition, plan, conception, or thought. The sentence above, fitting that definition, thus requires the subjunctive mood.
Tenses in the subjunctive mood do not necessarily have the same significance as in the more familiar indicative mood, especially the past; but here we have a straightforward present subjunctive (as shown by "it is time"). The inflection of the present-tense subjunctive is very simple and perfectly regular. It is, in all persons, identical to the bare infinitive form; for "finish", for example, it would be "I/you/he/she/it/we/they finish". So the correct form for that sentence is:
. It's high time we finish it.
> b) I can't come to the movie tonight because I will go to the theatre > with John. This sentence illustrates the verb quality called "aspect". The two aspects are "terminate", which represents the act as a finished whole, and "progressive", which represents the act as going on, in progress. We use the ordinary tense--whichever is appropriate--for the terminate aspect, but a participial form for the progressive; because of that, the terminate present is used to convey general, habitual, or general truths: I get up early; dogs bark; water runs downhill.
Examples using past tenses:
. Last Saturday I worked in the garden.
. Last Saturday I was working in the garden when Bill dropped by.
The future progressive form in the first person is "I shall [now often "will"] be Xing", where Xing is the present participle of the verb in question. Because the obstacle to your attendance at the movie is something that will *be going on* at the same time--a progressive aspect--your sentence wants to read:
. I can't come to the movie tonight because I shall/will be going to the theatre with John.
(The shall/will question is a large, complicated one, with the modern tendency being toward using "will" for futurity in all persons, though the matter is far from a settled one.)
> c) I've been to Japan three years ago. The sentence as cast is in the present perfect tense ("have been"), but that is inappropriate because that tense refers to time now past but in some way connected with the present; when the action is not so connected, we use the simple past tense (even if the action has just barely concluded).
One could use the present perfect tense for a statement such as "I've been to Japan three times," because nothing suggests that your travelling to Japan is now definitely concluded, with no further trips to come. But the "three years ago" places the act completely in the past, with no clear connection to present time. So, the wanted form is the simple past:
. I was [or "went"] to Japan three years ago.
> d) He asked me what can he do for me. This is another call for the subjunctive mood, as whatever task he might perform is not yet a factual thing but is "merely existent in the mind of the speaker as a desire, wish, volition, plan, conception, or thought."
Here we encounter the phenomenon alluded to above, the fact that in the subjunctive the past tense most often points to present or future time. There is in English a small collection of so-called "past-present verbs" that are each the remains of a shattered once-full verb form; they include can, dare, may, shall, will, must, ought, and the now-archaic wot. What these forms share is the quality of presenting not facts but conceptions, of representing things as possible, necessary, desireable, or befitting. They thus naturally align themselves with the subjunctive mood, and are used in the modern subjunctive as verbal auxiliaries.
(The modern subjunctive uses these auxiliaries, whereas the old-style subjunctive uses inflectional forms, as mentioned at sentence (a) above.)
The modal subjunctive auxiliary wanted here is "can"--the expression of possible ability--and under the tense-use rules of the subjunctive, we want the past form of it, "could".
Also, "what" is an interrogative pronoun; when it is followed by a word order inverted from the declarative subject-verb order to verb-subject, it normally makes a question: "What *can I* do for you?" But when we are reporting a question and not directly and formally quoting someone, we use the declarative word order--because we are reporting the statement, not ourselves asking the question. Thus, the wanted form is:
. He asked me what he could do for me.
Mark Wallace - 11 Nov 2006 12:27 GMT >> b) I can't come to the movie tonight because I will go to the theatre >> with John. [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > tendency being toward using "will" for futurity in all persons, though > the matter is far from a settled one.) I disagree. The only reason for using a past or future progressive form is to show an interaction with another event or action.
Your own example of past progressive shows this:
-- "Last Saturday, I was working in the garden when Bill dropped by."
In this case, the action of Bill's "dropping by" interrupted the continuous action of "working in the garden".
Without that interaction (which, granted, does not need to be contained within the same sentence), there is no point in showing that an action was continuous, so the vast majority of people would use the simple past:
-- "Last Saturday, I worked in the garden" is normal. -- "Last Saturday, I was working in the garden" is incomplete.
The whole plans v. intentions thing is a fuzzy area, because: a: The difference between a plan and an intention can be a fuzzy difference, and: b: In the US, the "intended action" usage ("going to"/"gonna") is often used indiscriminately for both, and the global proliferation of US TV shows is spreading that usage (whether that is "good" or "bad", I don't care. It just is).
To be absolutely correct, by today's standards (which still have not fully accepted "going to" for planned activities), the present continuous is required, as that indicates that a plan has been made.
>> d) He asked me what can he do for me. > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > . He asked me what he could do for me. That is not subjunctive; it's not even formulaic. You are confusing yourself with "he asked me if there were anything he could do for me", which may mean the same thing, but does not say it in the same way, or follow the same grammatical rules.
"What he can/could do for me" ("can" and "could" are interchangeable, here) is the indirect object of the verb "asked", pure and simple.
Paul {Hamilton Rooney} - 11 Nov 2006 14:06 GMT >So the correct form for that >sentence is: > >. It's high time we finish it. I would say, 'It's high time we finished it.'
Mark Wallace - 11 Nov 2006 14:33 GMT >> So the correct form for that >> sentence is: >> >> . It's high time we finish it. > > I would say, 'It's high time we finished it.' You wouldn't be wrong in doing so.
"~~ that we finish it." "~~ that we finished it." "~~ that we had finished it" (at a stretch). "~~ that it be finished." "~~ that it was finished." "~~ that it were finished." "~~ that it had been finished" (at a /really long/ stretch).
All are perfectly normal subjunctives, and all fit fine, in the sentence in question. You read and hear all those constructions all the time.
Eric Walker - 12 Nov 2006 00:16 GMT > >So the correct form for that > >sentence is: > > > >. It's high time we finish it. > > I would say, 'It's high time we finished it.' That is certainly an acceptable casting, albeit with a sense a slight shade different from the original. The past subjunctive suggests more doubt, uncertainty, while the present subjunctive implies more hope, definiteness. The past form has thus come to suggest modesty, diffidence, politeness, caution: "The matter might, I think, be left to his judgement" or "You might stop at the grocery on the way home and get some milk." My feeling is that the alternative casting is just such a polite form, the sort of thing one would normally say in, for example, a committee meeting, whereas the original is more forceful, perhaps the sort of thing that wants an exclamation point at the end, or that is said in a raised voice or in whatever tone a peeved superior uses to a subordinate.
Note that I didn't just say "correct form", I said "correct form for that sentence", hoping to convey thereby that I was seeking a recasting as close as to the original form ("It's high time we will finish it") as correctness could tolerate.
ChrisR - 11 Nov 2006 14:20 GMT >> I can identify the errors in the following sentences, but I also want to >> explain why they are errors and to name the correct tense that should be [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > . It's high time we finish it. I would say (BrE) that this was incorrect: it should be "It's high time we finished it".
>> b) I can't come to the movie tonight because I will go to the theatre >> with John. [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > tendency being toward using "will" for futurity in all persons, though > the matter is far from a settled one.) Except in formal writing I would go with "I am going".
>> d) He asked me what can he do for me. > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > . He asked me what he could do for me. I agree - "can" is incorrect to my ear.
Chris R
Mark Wallace - 11 Nov 2006 14:52 GMT > "Eric Walker" <email@owlcroft.com> wrote in message > >> . He asked me what he could do for me. >> > I agree - "can" is incorrect to my ear. I'm afraid that the difference between "was able to then" ("could") and "is still able to now" ("can") has been pretty much lost in the mists of time. Walker will insist on making the distinction, because his grammar is based on hugely out-of-date texts; but precious few other people worry about it, and swap "can" and "could" around to no ill effect (I wouldn't be surprised if you do it yourself, without noticing).
What is absolutely certain is that the sentence is not subjunctive, so Walker is once again earning his title "WP" (for studying and transcribing the "Wrong Page" of his archaic style manual).
Eric Walker - 12 Nov 2006 00:32 GMT > "Eric Walker" <email@owlcroft.com> wrote in message [...]
> >> d) He asked me what can he do for me. [...]
> > Thus, the wanted form is: > > > > . He asked me what he could do for me. > > > I agree - "can" is incorrect to my ear. Could that be so? Yes, it could. The original has its time sense bollixed: the indirectly quoted person in the past was not asking what he can do in our present, which is his future, but in *his* present, which is our past. As a direct quotation, the sentence would read "He asked me 'What can I do for you?'" in which the speaker accurately reports what that "he" said at that past moment, which was then his (and the speaker's) present.
But when that is rendered in indirect form, the tenses must show the time relation properly: one cannot use "can" for an act in one's past, but must use "could": "I wondered what he could do for me at that moment." No one (save perhaps one person) would dream of writing that "I wondered what he can do for me at that moment."
Eric Walker - 12 Nov 2006 00:51 GMT [Sorry, meant to pick this up in a prior posting.]
> >> b) I can't come to the movie tonight because I will go to the theatre > >> with John. [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Except in formal writing I would go with "I am going". "I am going" can certainly express futurity, provided the context supplies the needed sense (which "tonight" does here). But that is simple futurity, and so has terminate force. The essence of the conflict the speaker is addressing is that he or she will be at the theater with John *during* the time the movie is running. Without an explicitly progressive aspect, the conflict is not being made as clear as it should: suppose the play runs from 6 to 7 p.m. and the movie from 8 till 10 p.m.? For the speaker to state that he or she is going to the play does not *in itself* set forth that the conflict is owing to impossibility; it could also be that merely spending time in John's company puts the speaker off wanting to also spend time the same evening with whomever is being addressed. The expressly progressive form "I shall/will be going" makes correspondingly express that the conflict is one of *simultaneous* and thus mutually exclusive alternatives.
Granted, we can almost surely deduce the correct situation from "I can't come to the movie tonight because I am going to the theatre with John"; but the careful writer will say exactly what he means, and not cast his responsibility for exactness onto his readers' shoulders.
Mark Wallace - 12 Nov 2006 08:41 GMT > [Sorry, meant to pick this up in a prior posting.] > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > "I am going" can certainly express futurity, provided the context > supplies the needed sense (which "tonight" does here). Not quite. It implies that some planning of a future event is involved.
To take it your way: -- "I'm going to India, next year," implies that the whole year will be spent in India, when all the usage of present perfect does in imply that the speaker has done something about it (collected holiday brochures, bought hats, whatever).
This contrasts with: -- "I'm going to go to India, next year," in that the speaker of the second sentence is only stating his intention, and is less likely to have done anything about it.
... Except in the US, of course, where the "I'm going to go ~~" is likely to be used in both cases.
> But that is > simple futurity, and so has terminate force. The essence of the > conflict the speaker is addressing is that he or she will be at the > theater with John *during* the time the movie is running. The sentence reads: "I can't come", not "I can't sit through a movie that lasts two hours."
You're fishing again, WP. You're looking for excuses to cover the way you prefer to say things.
The trouble is that there's /nothing wrong/ with the way you want to say it!
If you want to say: -- "I'm going to the cinema." -- "I'm going to go to ~~." -- "I'll be going to ~~", or even: -- "I'll be at ~~", no-one will mind! There's good enough reason for using each of them.
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