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which/whose

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Netx - 28 Nov 2006 21:31 GMT
In the key I have the answer to these questions: WHOSE.
I want to know if it would be definitely correct to answer: "WHICH" to the
following exercises (especially considering CAE exam in British Council):

1. Paris is a city ...... art galleries are one one of its biggest
attractions.
2. Africa, ...... culture is extremely diverse, is a huge continent.

Mark
Dan S. - 28 Nov 2006 21:43 GMT
> In the key I have the answer to these questions: WHOSE.
> I want to know if it would be definitely correct to answer: "WHICH" to >
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> 1. Paris is a city ...... art galleries are one one of its biggest
> attractions.

It would definately be incorrect.

You could choose these wordings:

Paris is a city which has art galleries that are some of the biggest
attractions.

> 2. Africa, ...... culture is extremely diverse, is a huge continent.

Africa, which is culturally extremely diverse, is a huge continent.

Signature

Yours,
Dan S.

Reporting to you from South Bend
-The first step to beating an addiction is to admit that you believe in
addictions.

> Mark
Eric Walker - 29 Nov 2006 00:58 GMT
> > In the key I have the answer to these questions: WHOSE.
> > I want to know if it would be definitely correct to answer: "WHICH" to
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Africa, which is culturally extremely diverse, is a huge continent.

For the first of those rewrites, you would want "Paris is a city that
has art galleries that are one of its biggest attractions," since the
"that" clause is restrictive and the strong preference is "that" for
restrictives and "which" for non-restrictives (as in the Africa
example).  Compare:

Wild geese, which fly high, are a menace to aviation.  [all do]
Wild geese that fly high are a menace to aviation.  [some do]

Of course, the resultant doubling-up of "that" in the recasting is
grossly infelicitous: the original casting was satisfactory.  Faced
with multiple instances of "that", some writers shrug and insert a
"which", as in "Paris is a city that has art galleries which are one of
its biggest attractions," but it is better practice to recast the
sentence so that the doubling simply disappears (without a faked-up
"which").

For the original poster's better understanding:

Relative clauses (clauses whose subject is a relative pronoun--that,
which, who, whom, whose, what, and a few other less-common ones) can be
either "restrictive" or "non-restrictive".  A restrictive clause
"restricts" its antecedent noun phrase in some way, that is, it sets
forth some defined, limited subset of the thing (as "that fly high"
defines a particular subset of the category "wild geese").
Correspondingly, a non-restrictive relative clause comments on, but
does not actually *restrict* the noun phrase it modifies (as "which fly
high" describes but does not select from "wild geese"); the content of
a non-restrictive can be stricken from the sentence without materially
affecting its meaning ("Wild geese [, which fly high,] are a menace to
aviation").

The difference is obviously crucial.  Curiously, the making of the
distinction has had a spotty history.  Once, not so long ago, both
types were handled in the same way: simply set off as parenthetical
material by a comma pair.  (John Dryden: "All, that can bring my
country good, is welcome.")  The reader was usually left to tell what
was what by context and intuition.  After the mid-point of the 19th
century, a newer method came in: the elimination of the commas for
restrictives.  But, since such clauses often terminate their sentences,
in effect the entire job of specifying the character of the clause was
frequently left to the presence or absence of a single comma--as one
stylist put it, "a flyspeck on the page."

Feeling that to be a weak mechanism, some writers began also making a
distinction between the relative pronouns used in such clauses, as
described above: "that" for restrictives" and "which" for
non-restrictives.  By the time Fowler wrote the original _Modern
English Usage_ (1926) the practice was common, though far from
universal; though it is often erroneously described as something he
dreamt up, he was only pleading for the more nearly universal adopting
of an existing custom.

To this hour, his advice is not universally followed, but it is
_widely_ followed, especially by writers of sound craftsmanship.  It is
also much recommended, as there is everything to be said for it and
nothing to be said against it (saving an occasional multiplying of
instances of "that", which only wants modest recasting).

Rarely if ever will you find variations in non-restrictive
clauses--practically no one will write or say something like "Wild
geese, that fly high, are a menace to aviation": to any civilized ear,
such a sentence practically screams for "which".  The same holds true
when speaking of persons: "who" is almost invariable (This man, who
broke all records, was a modest fellow.")

It is in restrictives that one too often sees a "which" where a "that"
would sit far more comfortably: things like "Wild geese which fly high
are a menace to aviation," are deplorably common.  When one sees such a
thing, one is unsure whether a comma was omitted or whether the writer
is careless of wise convention, and is thus left feeling at risk as to
one's interpretation of the intended sense (which one must *assume* to
be restrictive).
Dan S. - 29 Nov 2006 02:10 GMT
>> > In the key I have the answer to these questions: WHOSE.
>> > I want to know if it would be definitely correct to answer: "WHICH" to
[quoted text clipped - 88 lines]
> one's interpretation of the intended sense (which one must *assume* to
> be restrictive).

I don't disagree.  However, I was trying to show, grammatically, how the OP
could use 'which', or more importantly, why it wasn't allowable in the
original sentences.  But, thank you.

Signature

Yours,
Dan S.

Reporting to you from South Bend
-The first step to beating an addiction is to admit that you believe in
addictions.

Robert Lieblich - 29 Nov 2006 03:36 GMT
> "Netx"wrote

> > In the key I have the answer to these questions: WHOSE.
> > I want to know if it would be definitely correct to answer: "WHICH" to >
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> It would definately be incorrect.

Your grammar is better than your spelling.  "Which" is definitely
wrong.  "Whose" is indeed the only correct answer.  There is no need
to write around it.

> You could choose these wordings:
>
> Paris is a city which has art galleries that are some of the biggest
> attractions.

The original with "whose" is better.

> > 2. Africa, ...... culture is extremely diverse, is a huge continent.
>
> Africa, which is culturally extremely diverse, is a huge continent.

No worse than the original with "whose."

I think everything Eric Walker wrote (in a separate post) is at least
not incorrect.  Just don't sell "whose" short.

Signature

Bob Lieblich
Not from Indiana

Dan S. - 29 Nov 2006 04:29 GMT
Does my .sig file annoy you?  I post elsewhere where they are commonplace.

Signature

Yours,
Dan S.

Reporting to you from South Bend
-The first step to beating an addiction is to admit that you believe in
addictions.

Tony Cooper - 29 Nov 2006 07:13 GMT
>Does my .sig file annoy you?  I post elsewhere where they are commonplace.

.sig lines identifying where you post from are quite acceptable.  They
help when you use "here" in a post.  

Bob's just pointing out that he doesn't know what is bent south where
you live.  (It's the St Joseph River, Bob)

Signature

Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL

Robert Lieblich - 29 Nov 2006 15:12 GMT
> >> --
> >> Bob Lieblich
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Bob's just pointing out that he doesn't know what is bent south where
> you live.  (It's the St Joseph River, Bob)

As my post in response to Dan S. indicates, I'm more than a little
bent myself.  I like Tony's explanation better than mine and hereby
adopt it as my official response.  Okay, so I'm being a bit -- what
shall we call it? -- disingenuous(?)  I work for the Bush
Administration.

No insult intended, and I hope no harm done.

Signature

Bob Lieblich
Downright twisted

HVS - 29 Nov 2006 15:17 GMT
On 29 Nov 2006, Robert Lieblich wrote

>> Bob's just pointing out that he doesn't know what is bent south
>> where you live.  (It's the St Joseph River, Bob)
>
> As my post in response to Dan S. indicates, I'm more than a
> little bent myself.

Ummmmm.....hokay.  Didn't know that...

NTTAWWBMTALB.

Signature

Cheers, Harvey

Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed
For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van

Robert Lieblich - 29 Nov 2006 15:48 GMT
> On 29 Nov 2006, Robert Lieblich wrote
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> NTTAWWBMTALB.

VKOY[1]

I was speaking metaphorically, not urologically.

[1] Very kind of you.

Signature

Bob Lieblich
Who has given up on escaping this thread with dignity intact

Barbara Bailey - 29 Nov 2006 19:26 GMT
>>Does my .sig file annoy you?  I post elsewhere where they are commonplace.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>Bob's just pointing out that he doesn't know what is bent south where
>you live.  (It's the St Joseph River, Bob)

Or as a Hoosier of my acquaintence used to say, "Indiana, where South
Bend isn't south, North Vernon isn't north, and French Lick isn't
anywhere near as much fun as it sounds..."

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Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Robert Lieblich - 29 Nov 2006 15:09 GMT
> > --
> > Bob Lieblich
> > Not from Indiana
>
> Does my .sig file annoy you?  I post elsewhere where they are commonplace.

I never even looked at your .sig file and had no idea you were from
Indiana.  Besides, some of my best friends are Hoosiers (mostly from
Valpo).  So what was I up to?  I was making a bad pun on "whose" and
"Hoosier."  Strictly for my own amusement, of course -- no sane person
could have figured it out.

I realize this sounds too farfetched to be true, but truth is stranger
than diction.

Signature

Bob Lieblich
Who lost out in the competition to purchase the Toll Road

the Omrud - 29 Nov 2006 18:10 GMT
Robert Lieblich <r_s_lieblich@yahoo.com> had it:

> > > --
> > > Bob Lieblich
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> "Hoosier."  Strictly for my own amusement, of course -- no sane person
> could have figured it out.

Damn.  I must be saner than I thought.

Signature

David
=====

Paul {Hamilton Rooney} - 29 Nov 2006 17:06 GMT
>> "Netx"wrote
>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>I think everything Eric Walker wrote (in a separate post) is at least
>not incorrect.  Just don't sell "whose" short.

Absolutely right. 'whose' is entirely correct and a perfect, obvious fit.
Netx - 29 Nov 2006 17:43 GMT
Thanks for help. I see that my tutor misinformed me about "which" usage,
where "whose" is required.

BTW I suppose that what you call "restrictive clause" is called "defining
realative clause" in the course books I use to learn English (FCE GOLD, CAE
GOLD, Longman publishing".

Mark
Bill McCray - 29 Nov 2006 19:13 GMT
> Thanks for help. I see that my tutor misinformed me about "which" usage,
> where "whose" is required.
>
> BTW I suppose that what you call "restrictive clause" is called "defining
> realative clause" in the course books I use to learn English (FCE GOLD, CAE
> GOLD, Longman publishing".

Yes, that sounds right (except for the extraneous "a").

>> > 1. Paris is a city ...... art galleries are one one of its biggest
>> > attractions.

If anyone said this in this thread, I missed it:  That can be rendered
as "Paris is a city the art galleries of which are one ...".  I
wouldn't use that except in the most formal of writing though. "Whose"
is much, much more common.  

(We need "whichs" for this purpose, but don't have it.  "Which's" is
used, but as a contraction, not a possessive.)

Bill

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