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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2007led zeppelin "if the sun refuse to shine..."
hello, so, why not "refuses" ? cheers > hello, > so, why not "refuses" ? > cheers Indeed. Why not a little clarity? Are you referring to a particular lyric? > Indeed. Why not a little clarity? Are you referring to a particular lyric? "Thank you" by Led Zeppelin My bad, it's "refused" so it makes sense > > Indeed. Why not a little clarity? Are you referring to a particular lyric? > > "Thank you" by Led Zeppelin > My bad, it's "refused" so it makes sense It is given as "refuse" on plenty of web sites. It sounds like "refuse" on the CD I own. > > hello, > > so, why not "refuses" ? > > cheers > > Indeed. Why not a little clarity? Are you referring to a particular lyric? It's in the subject line. I'll repeat it here for your benefit:- led zeppelin "if the sun refuse to shine..." I think the answer is that, yes, "refused" would be better English, but that Robert Plant, the English singer of Led Zeppelin, is consciously aping the very colloquial singing style of US Black musicians from the Deep South, where such spoken formulations are common. Indeed, the phrase appears in some versions of a much older song, "When the saints go marching in", first performed in the early years of the 20th century by Black musicians. The phrase is also found in the song "If 6 was 9" by Jimi Hendrix. >> > hello, >> > so, why not "refuses" ? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > led zeppelin "if the sun refuse to shine..." Funny mike. But there was a better way for the OP to ask the question for those of us who aren't groupies. > I think the answer is that, yes, "refused" would be better English, but > that Robert Plant, the English singer of Led Zeppelin, is consciously > aping the very colloquial singing style of US Black musicians from the > Deep South, You don't need the capitalization of black when referring to black musicians either. Not how it's done these days. Negro gets a cap, especially since it is historical and out of favor. African American gets a cap. Black doesn't unless it is particularly categorical, and your post doesn't reference the categorical. where such spoken formulations are common. Indeed, the > phrase appears in some versions of a much older song, "When the saints > go marching in", first performed in the early years of the 20th century > by Black musicians. The phrase is also found in the song "If 6 was 9" > by Jimi Hendrix. > > hello, > > so, why not "refuses" ? > > cheers > > Indeed. Why not a little clarity? Are you referring to a particular lyric? It's in the subject line. I'll repeat it here for your benefit:- led zeppelin "if the sun refuse to shine..." I think the answer is that, yes, "refused" would be better English, but that Robert Plant, the English singer of Led Zeppelin, is consciously aping the very colloquial singing style of US Black musicians from the Deep South, where such spoken formulations are common. Indeed, the phrase appears in some versions of a much older song, "When the saints go marching in", first performed in the early years of the 20th century by Black musicians. The phrase is also found in the song "If 6 was 9" by Jimi Hendrix. > > hello, > > so, why not "refuses" ? > > cheers > > Indeed. Why not a little clarity? Are you referring to a particular lyric? It's in the subject line. I'll repeat it here for your benefit:- led zeppelin "if the sun refuse to shine..." I think the answer is that, yes, "refused" would be better English, but that Robert Plant, the English singer of Led Zeppelin, is consciously aping the very colloquial singing style of US Black musicians from the Deep South, where such spoken formulations are common. Indeed, the phrase appears in some versions of a much older song, "When the saints go marching in", first performed in the early years of the 20th century by Black musicians. The phrase is also found in the song "If 6 was 9" by Jimi Hendrix. > hello, > so, why not "refuses" ? I think that I would assume a subjunctive or conditional mood. Could the "if" be replaced by "should"? In poetry, I think this usage of "if" is rather frequent, and the "refuse" form of the verb would be normal. Should the rain not come as predicted, we shall be forced to dig a well. Should (if) the sun rise not as expected, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. >hello, >so, why not "refuses" ? >cheers This is a straightforward use in English of a verb in the subjunctive mood following 'If' ..  SignatureFrancis Cameron > >hello, > >so, why not "refuses" ? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > -- > Francis Cameron Er ... no ... it might be a straightforward subjunctive after 'if' if it were in Latin (see what I did there?). In English it requires 'should' or the indicative of the verb. 'If he decide to believe this'? 'If one accept this as gospel'? I think not!!!! ========================================== >> >hello, >> >so, why not "refuses" ? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> -- >> Francis Cameron =========================================== >Er ... no ... it might be a straightforward subjunctive after 'if' if >it were in Latin (see what I did there?). In English it requires >'should' or the indicative of the verb. > >'If he decide to believe this'? 'If one accept this as gospel'? I think >not!!!! ======================================== > In English it requires I beg to suggest this [it requires] is a view which is gradually being replaced by the realisation that generally acceptable usage in English is now 'descriptive' rather than 'prescriptive'. I was taught to look in dictionaries, especially the OED, for the 'correct' meanings of words. This was in the days when dictionaries really were prescriptive. Nowadays, the current offerings from Oxford are descriptive. Languages change. Data was once a plural requiring the plural form of the verb. [data are]. Now data is treated as a singular. Data is - is now the norm. hth SignatureFrancis Cameron > ========================================== > >Er ... no ... it might be a straightforward subjunctive after 'if' if > >it were in Latin (see what I did there?). In English it requires [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > the verb. [data are]. Now data is treated as a singular. Data is - is > now the norm. That is entirely my own policy _except_ where it leads to nonsense. This is one such case ... If the sun refuses to shine If the sun refused to shine If the sun should refuse to shine If the sun were to refuse to shine .... all make sense. If the sun refuse to shine .... is nonsense (IMNSHO). >> ========================================== > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > .... is nonsense (IMNSHO). To my ear "if the sun refuse to shine" is a perfecly acceptable poetic form using the subjunctive, omitting "should". "And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican." Matthew 18:17, King James version. "if he refuse to stand thereto, or make protestation against any of their decrees, he does contrary to his covenant, and therefore unjustly." Hobbes, Leviathan "And tell him, if he'll take it, I'll come and teach him to read it right,' she said; 'and, if he refuse it, I'll go upstairs, and never tease him again." Emily Bronte, Wuthering Heights "Curse him if he refuse, and then we may Depose him" Marlowe, Edward II "If he be slain, say "ay," or if not, "no." Brief sounds determine of my weal or woe." Shakespeare, Romeo & Juliet Chris R >>> ========================================== >> [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > > Chris R I knew there was another one on the tip of my tongue: "If music be the food of love, play on." >To my ear "if the sun refuse to shine" is a perfecly acceptable poetic form >using the subjunctive, omitting "should". [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >Chris R ================================================= Thank you for these supporting examples. SignatureFrancis Cameron > >> ========================================== > > [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > > Chris R Are you in the habit of speaking 17th century English in your everyday life then? Do you have an example from anything so awfully modern as the 20th century perhaps? >> >> ========================================== >> > [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > life then? Do you have an example from anything so awfully modern as > the 20th century perhaps? Those all came from Google. As I said, it's a poetic form, or archaic. I wouldn't use it in everyday speech, but it seems to me perfectly acceptable in a song lyric. If I had chosen to quote random Google hits from unknown authors you might say they were just other people's errors. There were plenty of examples from blogs, not noted for their use of archaic forms. Most of the quotations I gave are with the verb "to refuse"- there must be thousands of instances with other verbs. "If he be" + "poet" gets 190,000 Google hits, and the first page includes Kipling, John Drinkwater, W B Yeats and Philip Sidney. Then there are the legal uses - such as the ordinance defining the powers of tree wardens in Springfield, Mass. There is a recent novel called "If there be Thorns" available from Amazon. But even if it were not in current use, I don't think it's right to describe a form commonly used by Shakespeare and many other great authors as "nonsense". If winter come, can spring be far behind? Chris R > > "And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he > > neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > life then? Do you have an example from anything so awfully modern as > the 20th century perhaps? "If the sun refuse to shine, ..." - R. Plant Phil Signature"Home taping is killing big business profits. We left this side blank so you can help." -- Dead Kennedys, written upon the B-side of tapes of /In God We Trust, Inc./. >> ========================================== > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > >.... is nonsense (IMNSHO). ================================================= OK. That's your viewpoint. We'll just have to agree to disagree. SignatureFrancis Cameron > If the sun refuses to shine > If the sun refused to shine [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > .... is nonsense (IMNSHO). How do you know it's related to the other 4 then? You didn't somehow /interpret/ it, did you? Phil Signature"Home taping is killing big business profits. We left this side blank so you can help." -- Dead Kennedys, written upon the B-side of tapes of /In God We Trust, Inc./. [...] > I was taught to look in dictionaries, especially the OED, for the > 'correct' meanings of words. This was in the days when dictionaries > really were prescriptive. Nowadays, the current offerings from Oxford > are descriptive. [...] The OED itself has been avowedly descriptive since its inception. Its smaller stable-mates such as the Concise OED may give the impression of being prescriptive because much has to be omitted for the sake of brevity. But even descriptive dictionaries usually mark some senses as non-standard. Alan Jones > [...] > > I was taught to look in dictionaries, especially the OED, for the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > being prescriptive because much has to be omitted for the sake of brevity. > But even descriptive dictionaries usually mark some senses as non-standard. I've done this recently before <http://tinyurl.com/ychpmn> and won't bore everyone with a repeat. Anyone who cares can read the earlier one. SignatureBob Lieblich Citing himself |
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