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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2007Our Miss Brooks and myself
On Old Time Radio, Sunday nights on WAMU or www.wamu.org , on Our Miss Brooks, Mr. Conklin said "My wife's sister sent her son to stay with my wife and myself." A 1949 episode, where he uses the pretentious incorrect form of "myself". Now Mr. Conklin is a sort of pretentious guy, and this New Year's Eve episode gave another example of that (when he didn't bother to say he would be home at 10 the next morning, not 10 that night, and ruined Miss Brooks's plans), but it does show that the mistake was already in use in 1949! The next half hour was a mystery show from 1947, dealing with a guy who drank too much and got hit by a car, on NYEve, I think, and lost his memory, in which one of the characters also used "myself" where it shouldn't have been used. I forget the exact lines. This should make me feel better, that it took 60 years or more to get to the point we are now. And not just the 30 that I've been noticing the problem. But so far a better feeling has only been theoretical; it hasn't actually reached my emotions yet. If you are inclined to email me for some reason, remove NOPSAM :-) > On Old Time Radio, Sunday nights on WAMU or www.wamu.org , on Our Miss > Brooks, Mr. Conklin said "My wife's sister sent her son to stay with [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > If you are inclined to email me > for some reason, remove NOPSAM :-) Pretentious perhaps, but wrong? One wonders what you imagine the 'right' pronoun would be? >> On Old Time Radio, Sunday nights on WAMU or www.wamu.org , on Our Miss >> Brooks, Mr. Conklin said "My wife's sister sent her son to stay with [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Pretentious perhaps, but wrong? One wonders what you imagine the > 'right' pronoun would be? Me? Chris R >> On Old Time Radio, Sunday nights on WAMU or www.wamu.org , on Our Miss >> Brooks, Mr. Conklin said "My wife's sister sent her son to stay with [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> not 10 that night, and ruined Miss Brooks's plans), but it does show >> that the mistake was already in use in 1949! [...] > Pretentious perhaps, but wrong? One wonders what you imagine the > 'right' pronoun would be? I suppose 'me' is too obvious for you. Or would you prefer that the previous sentence had been "Myself supposes 'me' is too obvious for yourself"? > >> On Old Time Radio, Sunday nights on WAMU or www.wamu.org , on Our Miss > >> Brooks, Mr. Conklin said "My wife's sister sent her son to stay with [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > previous sentence had been "Myself supposes 'me' is too obvious for > yourself"? For myself you illustrate the point rather nicely! "Myself supposes ... " would be _wrong_ because 'myself' is not the equivalent of 'I'. It is the equivalent of 'me'. Therefore, it is not used _incorrectly_ in the original example given though it may be pretentious. If the proposal is that the word is used incorrectly then I am puzzled by what would be considered correct, as 'me' and 'myself' are exact synonyms. It would appear that mm suggests that the correct form would have been 'with my wife and I' but I didn't want to assume that without further evidence. I clearly did not mean that 'myself' is _preferable_ to 'me' but that is every bit as _correct_ in the sentence declared _wrong_ by mm. >>>> On Old Time Radio, Sunday nights on WAMU or www.wamu.org , on Our Miss >>>> Brooks, Mr. Conklin said "My wife's sister sent her son to stay with [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > " would be _wrong_ because 'myself' is not the equivalent of 'I'. It is > the equivalent of 'me'. No it isn't. "I" is a subjective pronoun, "myself" is a reflexive pronoun, and "me" is an objective pronoun. In other words, each represents a different part of speech, and none is equivalent to any of the others. > Therefore, it is not used _incorrectly_ in the > original example given though it may be pretentious. Yes, it is (used incorrectly, that is). > If the proposal is > that the word is used incorrectly then I am puzzled by what would be > considered correct, as 'me' and 'myself' are exact synonyms. No, they are not. Proper use of a reflexive pronoun is to refer to the subject (e.g., "I hurt myself"). In English, it is also acceptable to use a reflexive pronoun to accentuate or reinforce the subject (e.g., "I, myself, don't mind a bit"). It is incorrect to use a reflexive pronoun as the subject (e.g., "Joe and myself went to the store") or the object (e.g., "Liza saw Joe and myself at the store") of a sentence. "With my wife and myself" is without a doubt incorrect and *should* be "with my wife and me." > >>>> On Old Time Radio, Sunday nights on WAMU or www.wamu.org , on Our Miss > >>>> Brooks, Mr. Conklin said "My wife's sister sent her son to stay with [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > myself at the store") of a sentence. "With my wife and myself" is > without a doubt incorrect and *should* be "with my wife and me." It is not exclusively a reflexive pronoun and indeed, in OED, not even primarily a reflexive! Emphatic usage includes (and I quote) ... 3. Substituted for _me_ as the object of a verb or governed by a preposition. The use of myself as the sole or the first-mentioned object of a verb is now arch. In an enumeration, when not occupying the first place, it does not now express any special emphasis, being in this position commonly preferred to me. So, again, speaking for myself (and possibly to and with myself!) I reiterate that 'with my wife and myself' is completely acceptable if now a little arch (pretentious). I am myself. I can be no other! >> It is incorrect to use a reflexive pronoun as the subject (e.g., "Joe >> and myself went to the store") or the object (e.g., "Liza saw Joe and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > It is not exclusively a reflexive pronoun and indeed, in OED, not even > primarily a reflexive! Emphatic usage includes (and I quote) ... Quote from whom? > 3. Substituted for _me_ as the object of a verb or governed by a > preposition. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > reiterate that 'with my wife and myself' is completely acceptable if > now a little arch (pretentious). I am myself. I can be no other! To each his own I suppose, but I think I can honestly say you're the only person I've ever met who finds this usage acceptable. I can't say I actively seek out opinions on this particular matter, but the handful of grammar books and handful of grammarians I have consulted over the years are all in agreement that "myself" should never be used as an objective pronoun. > >> It is incorrect to use a reflexive pronoun as the subject (e.g., "Joe > >> and myself went to the store") or the object (e.g., "Liza saw Joe and [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Quote from whom? The OED, rather obviously, I thought! > > 3. Substituted for _me_ as the object of a verb or governed by a > > preposition. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > To each his own I suppose, but I think I can honestly say you're the > only person I've ever met who finds this usage acceptable. You want to get out more! ;) > I can't say I > actively seek out opinions on this particular matter, but the handful of > grammar books and handful of grammarians I have consulted over the years > are all in agreement that "myself" should never be used as an objective > pronoun. Which merely drags us back to the descriptive/proscriptive argument. The usage is, (or was) clearly common enough for it to be described in the OED (Chambers agreeing, by the way). By what authority do your 'grammarians' proscribe it? I leave the last word to the good old Merriam Webster on this subject ... "Critics have frowned on these uses since about the turn of the century, probably unaware that they serve a definite purpose. Users themselves are as unaware as the critics--they simply follow their instincts. These uses are standard. " |
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