Satiety
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Nigel Greenwood - 09 Jan 2007 22:18 GMT Yesterday morning on the BBC Radio 4 programme Today [sic!], one of the presenters read out a piece to do with the feeling of satiety. He stumbled a bit on the word, pronouncing it something like "satiate-y", but was quickly corrected by his colleague.
I mention this, not to ridicule the presenter -- many of us would have been thrown by this word -- but rather because it's an interesting example of a word somewhere near the limit of most literate native speakers' vocabularies (I would think). There must be quite a sizeable class of words that one recognizes & understands without necessarily being able to pronounce them confidently.
As it happens, the main reason I know how to pronounce "satiety" is that I still remember the surprise with which I heard TS Eliot pronounce it, in his rather donnish voice, in a recorded reading of Ash Wednesday.
Nigel
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Harlan Messinger - 09 Jan 2007 22:47 GMT > Yesterday morning on the BBC Radio 4 programme Today [sic!], one of the > presenters read out a piece to do with the feeling of satiety. He [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > class of words that one recognizes & understands without necessarily > being able to pronounce them confidently. A friend of mine recently visited her daughter who is living in the rain forest of Suriname on a research project. When my friend described her arrival in "Para-mara-boo" /"p&r @ 'm&r @ bu/ I realized it was the first time in my life I'd ever heard the name of the country's capital, Paramaribo, spoken aloud. In my head it's always been "Para-maribo" /"p&r @ m@ 'ri bo/. I assumed she was pronouncing it correctly for having just been there and having a daughter living there.
I never remember the correct way to say "detritus". I've heard it said twice, two different ways. Similarly for "satiety", as it happens.
I wonder how many people think "awry" is pronounced /'Or i/, or what they make of the verb "prophesy".
Brian M. Scott - 09 Jan 2007 23:19 GMT On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 17:47:23 -0500, Harlan Messinger <hmessinger.removethis@comcast.net> wrote in <news:50ikbsF1furavU1@mid.individual.net> in alt.english.usage,sci.lang:
[...]
> I never remember the correct way to say "detritus". It matches the Latin, which has /i:/: /d@'trayt@s/, in Smith-Trager.
[...]
Brian
Paul J Kriha - 10 Jan 2007 06:16 GMT > On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 17:47:23 -0500, Harlan Messinger > <hmessinger.removethis@comcast.net> wrote in [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > It matches the Latin, which has /i:/: /d@'trayt@s/, in > Smith-Trager. Does the Latin version really have long /i:/? I thought it was a short one.
pjk
Brian M. Scott - 10 Jan 2007 08:14 GMT >> On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 17:47:23 -0500, Harlan Messinger >> <hmessinger.removethis@comcast.net> wrote in >> <news:50ikbsF1furavU1@mid.individual.net> in >> alt.english.usage,sci.lang:
>> [...]
>>> I never remember the correct way to say "detritus".
>> It matches the Latin, which has /i:/: /d@'trayt@s/, in >> Smith-Trager.
> Does the Latin version really have long /i:/? > I thought it was a short one. So far as I can discover, yes.
Brian
António Marques - 10 Jan 2007 12:06 GMT >> On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 17:47:23 -0500, Harlan Messinger >> <hmessinger.removethis@comcast.net> wrote in [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Does the Latin version really have long /i:/? > I thought it was a short one. Would have to be /'detritus/ then, no?
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Paul J Kriha - 11 Jan 2007 04:42 GMT > >> On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 17:47:23 -0500, Harlan Messinger > >> <hmessinger.removethis@comcast.net> wrote in [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Would have to be /'detritus/ then, no? Drats, that's what I always thought it was. :-) I am lost now, how can I tell which <i> is /i/ and which is /i:/?
pjk
> am António Marques - 11 Jan 2007 11:58 GMT >>>>> I never remember the correct way to say "detritus". >>>> It matches the Latin, which has /i:/: /d@'trayt@s/, in [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Drats, that's what I always thought it was. :-) > I am lost now, how can I tell which <i> is /i/ and which is /i:/? Short /i/ is seldom <i> in western romance and thence english, but that won't necessarily work for learned words.
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Flying Tortoise - 10 Jan 2007 18:04 GMT > Yesterday morning on the BBC Radio 4 programme Today [sic!], one of the > presenters read out a piece to do with the feeling of satiety. He [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Nigel I don't think of satiety as a difficult word at all though I can't say I've ever had cause to actually say it, and can't imagine when I might have heard it. The natural 'best guess' mechanism leaps immediately to piety, sobriety, society etc. The real trip-ups when you're reading unseen text aloud tend to be less sophisticated (from my own experience as a radio presenter) like failing to spot the difference between Donal and Donald and the ever popular foreign words (especially Gaelic, Welsh, and certain African languages)!
Harlan Messinger - 10 Jan 2007 18:46 GMT >> Yesterday morning on the BBC Radio 4 programme Today [sic!], one of the >> presenters read out a piece to do with the feeling of satiety. He [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > have heard it. The natural 'best guess' mechanism leaps immediately to > piety, sobriety, society etc. But there's interference from "satiate", and from all the words that end in -tion and -tial and -tient and -tious where the "i" has no independent sound.
cotillion but contrition lenient but sentient imperial but initial amphibious but ambitious
Ekkehard Dengler - 10 Jan 2007 22:47 GMT > >> Yesterday morning on the BBC Radio 4 programme Today [sic!], one of the > >> presenters read out a piece to do with the feeling of satiety. He [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > in -tion and -tial and -tient and -tious where the "i" has no > independent sound. On the other hand, "equation" is usually /I'kweIZn/ although hundreds of analogous words end in /eISn/.
By the way, I noticed the other day that Jay Leno consistently pronounces "illegal" [i:'li:gl] (or possibly ['i:li:gl]). Is this common in the USA?
Regards, Ekkehard
John Varela - 11 Jan 2007 00:27 GMT > By the way, I noticed the other day that Jay Leno consistently pronounces > "illegal" [i:'li:gl] (or possibly ['i:li:gl]). Is this common in the USA? I'm not so sure I understand the IPA, but if you're trying to represent the word "legal" pronounced in the usual way, with a prefix "il" prefixed, then the answer is "Yes" immediately followed by the question, How else would you pronounce it?
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Ruud Harmsen - 11 Jan 2007 08:03 GMT Thu, 11 Jan 2007 00:27:12 GMT: John Varela <OLDlamps@verizon.net>: in sci.lang:
>> By the way, I noticed the other day that Jay Leno consistently pronounces >> "illegal" [i:'li:gl] (or possibly ['i:li:gl]). Is this common in the USA? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >the answer is "Yes" immediately followed by the question, How else would you >pronounce it? [I'li:gl] of course. What else?
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António Marques - 11 Jan 2007 11:32 GMT > Thu, 11 Jan 2007 00:27:12 GMT: John Varela <OLDlamps@verizon.net>: in > sci.lang: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > [I'li:gl] of course. What else? [@'li:gl]?
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Ruud Harmsen - 11 Jan 2007 14:07 GMT Thu, 11 Jan 2007 11:32:05 +0000: António Marques <m.ap@sapo.pt>: in sci.lang:
>> [I'li:gl] of course. What else? > >[@'li:gl]? Since I heard Cher sing "Memphus" for "Memphis", anything is possible.
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Peter T. Daniels - 11 Jan 2007 14:14 GMT Ant?nio Marques wrote:
> > Thu, 11 Jan 2007 00:27:12 GMT: John Varela <OLDlamps@verizon.net>: in > > sci.lang: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > [@'li:gl]? No -- not available.
To clarify for John Varela, what Ekkehard reported was "ee-LEE-gull" or maybe "EE-lee-gull." This is not usual in English. Ruud correctly provided "ih-LEE-gull." Antonio asked about "uh-LEE-gull."
Harlan Messinger - 11 Jan 2007 17:49 GMT >>> Thu, 11 Jan 2007 00:27:12 GMT: John Varela <OLDlamps@verizon.net>: in >>> sci.lang: >>> >>>>> By the way, I noticed the other day that Jay Leno consistently pronounces >>>>> "illegal" [i:'li:gl] (or possibly ['i:li:gl]). Is this common in the USA? I've noticed it.
>>>> I'm not so sure I understand the IPA, but if you're trying to represent the >>>> word "legal" pronounced in the usual way, with a prefix "il" prefixed, then [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > No -- not available. I'm pretty sure "Is it illegal?" It rhymes with like "Is Little Eagle?" Saying [I'li:gl] seems like extra work.
Brian M. Scott - 11 Jan 2007 20:59 GMT On Thu, 11 Jan 2007 12:49:13 -0500, Harlan Messinger <hmessinger.removethis@comcast.net> wrote in <news:50nbm9F1gunbmU1@mid.individual.net> in alt.english.usage,sci.lang:
[...]
> I'm pretty sure "Is it illegal?" It rhymes with like "Is Little Eagle?" Certainly not for me, and I think not in general. In particular, 'Is it illegal?' doesn't rhyme with 'Is it a legal ...?'.
> Saying [I'li:gl] seems like extra work. It probably isn't usually quite the [I] of <kit>, say, but it's definitely not the [@] of <about>.
Brian
John Varela - 13 Jan 2007 19:46 GMT >>>> Thu, 11 Jan 2007 00:27:12 GMT: John Varela <OLDlamps@verizon.net>: in >>>> sci.lang: [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > I'm pretty sure "Is it illegal?" It rhymes with like "Is Little Eagle?" > Saying [I'li:gl] seems like extra work. For me it rhymes with "ill eagle", except that the syllable split is different.
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Pat Durkin - 13 Jan 2007 22:04 GMT >>>>> Thu, 11 Jan 2007 00:27:12 GMT: John Varela <OLDlamps@verizon.net>: >>>>> in [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > For me it rhymes with "ill eagle", except that the syllable split is > different. I hear "ee 'lee gle" quite often. I don't think it is a midwesternism, but I do think some people get quite specific about their enunciation on that word, for some reason. I would hate to hear them do that "ee" thing with (the first syllable of) "illicit", though, because it would stop me from hearing the rest of the sentence.
(I heard someone on TV today say "say tye a ty". It didn't come out smoothly, though, so I kind of think she was reading it from a prompter that had a syllable break after the "sa-" and she might have been thinking it would finish as "'tiation".)
Thinking on her feet, so to speak. Quite alert.
Ekkehard Dengler - 11 Jan 2007 09:40 GMT > > By the way, I noticed the other day that Jay Leno consistently pronounces > > "illegal" [i:'li:gl] (or possibly ['i:li:gl]). Is this common in the USA? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the answer is "Yes" immediately followed by the question, How else would you > pronounce it? Jay Leno pronounces the prefix with a long "ee", as I meant to indicate by using the same vowel symbol twice.
Regards, Ekkehard
Harlan Messinger - 11 Jan 2007 17:54 GMT > On the other hand, "equation" is usually /I'kweIZn/ although hundreds of > analogous words end in /eISn/. I never thought about that. I wonder why. It isn't an anomalous formation. Sedate <-> sedation, calculate <-> calculation, equate <-> equation.
Neeraj Mathur - 17 Jan 2007 02:03 GMT > By the way, I noticed the other day that Jay Leno consistently pronounces > "illegal" [i:'li:gl] (or possibly ['i:li:gl]). Is this common in the USA? The standard pronunciation has a lengthened consonant 'l'. One of the few places where English has geminates (in the sense of lengthened consonants) is in words that are productively parsed as compounds where the final of the first morpheme is the same as the initial of the second.
There is a minority which perform a quantitative metathesis, like Leno, lengthening the first vowel and shortening the geminate consonant. This strikes me as more common than the other modification, which just shortens the consonant without lengthening the vowel, but I don't have any stat data on the three variants.
Neeraj Mathur
John Atkinson - 17 Jan 2007 07:42 GMT "Neeraj Mathur" <neeraj.k.mathur@gmail.com> wrote...
>> By the way, I noticed the other day that Jay Leno consistently >> pronounces [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > the final of the first morpheme is the same as the initial of the > second. Hmm. Is your "l" in "silly" significantly shorter than in "illegal"? What about "silicon"? "Kilometer"?
Personally, I doubt if "illegal" is "productively parsed as a compound" by most English speakers, though of course I'm basing that judgement on my own intuition -- "Il-" arguably (??) not being in itself a prefix, and the rule -nl- > -ll- in such words being a rule of Latin, not English.
In my dialect at any rate, "l" is geminated only in words like "ill-looking", "ill-luck" etc, which are obvious compounds in the modern language.
> There is a minority which perform a quantitative metathesis, like > Leno, > lengthening the first vowel and shortening the geminate consonant. > This strikes me as more common than the other modification, which just > shortens the consonant without lengthening the vowel, but I don't have > any stat data on the three variants. FWIW, the SOED gives pronounciations"Ili:g&l", "IlIt@r@t" and so on, which suggests that, in RP at any rate, your "other modification" is the norm.
John.
Peter T. Daniels - 17 Jan 2007 13:26 GMT > FWIW, the SOED gives pronounciations"Ili:g&l", "IlIt@r@t" and so on, > which suggests that, in RP at any rate, your "other modification" is the > norm. Or that British phoneticians are so focused on vowel length that they completely overlook consonant length.
John Atkinson - 17 Jan 2007 23:43 GMT "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@verizon.net> wrote...
>> FWIW, the SOED gives pronounciations"Ili:g&l", "IlIt@r@t" and so on, >> which suggests that, in RP at any rate, your "other modification" is [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Or that British phoneticians are so focused on vowel length that they > completely overlook consonant length. (1) Do dictionaries really employ professional phoneticians to do their pronunciations for them? (I'm genuinely ignorant on this point.)
(2) I agree, some dictionary pronunciations do seem a bit random (That's why I wrote "FWIW"). The SOED does distinguish consonant length. Thus:
Illimitation, illiterate, immerse, immeasurable, immiscible, immit, immoral, innocuous, innovate and hundreds of others are specified as not having geminates.
But:
Illimitable, illiberal, illicit, illiquid, illogic(al), immerge, immetrical, immission, innate, innavigable, innervate, innominate, innumerable and a few others are specified as having optional geminates.
It's hard to see any pattern here, either semantic or phonetic (based on stress pattern or following vowel, for instance). So the answer to "FWIW" is probably "Not a hell of a lot".
It occured to me that there might be a US/Brit thing going on here, so I took a look at Online MW. It gives optional geminates for the three or four "ill-" words that I checked, but, unlike SOED, for immerge, innate, innovate, innumerable, only the non-geminate pronunciation is given. So, though it's by no means identical, on average the incidence of gemination seems similar.
What do other dictionaries have to say? What about your own dialect, Peter? We already know, I believe, that Neeraj's presumably Canadian dialect does geminate all(?) words with latinate prefix "in-".
Of course, the germanic prefix "un-" always geminates for everyone, no?
John.
Neeraj Mathur - 18 Jan 2007 00:35 GMT > "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@verizon.net> wrote... > > [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > Peter? We already know, I believe, that Neeraj's presumably Canadian > dialect does geminate all(?) words with latinate prefix "in-". No, not all; I would never geminate 'innate' or 'innovate', for instance. I would always geminate 'innumerable'. My best guess is that these are words which cannot be parsed in English ('nate' and 'novate' not being English words), and that there is no possibility of confusion with a prefix e- (as for instance in 'immerge' vs 'emerge' - although I'm not sure I've ever used 'immerge' - or in 'innumerable' (=countless) vs 'enumerable' (='can be registered to vote', if I had to give it a meaning)).
John Atkinson - 18 Jan 2007 03:02 GMT "Neeraj Mathur" <neeraj.k.mathur@gmail.com> wrote...
[...]
>> (2) I agree, some dictionary pronunciations do seem a bit random >> (That's [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > to > give it a meaning)). "Immerge", to dip, plunge etc is apparently very rare or obsolescent. I don't have it in my lexicon, and if I did it'd probably merge with emerge in a cloud of spray.
"Enumerable", meaning "countable" (i.e., capable of being lined up one-to-one against the set of natural numbers), I do have. It never occured to me that it might be unfamiliar to innumerate Arts students. The likely confusion in speech with "innumerable" isn't a big deal for me since it's unlikely to happen in practice. Even if you had innumerable enumerable sets -- or even an unenumerable number of them.
Actually, of the dozens of latinate "il-, im-, in-" words I've checked that are in my lexicon, I'm sure that none have geminates -- except _possibly_ "innumerable" and "innumerate", which I can't make up my mind about. (Likewise "innuendo"!) The <nn> in "innumerable" does seem to be rather longer than in, say, "innovate"; but it's definitely shorter than in "unnumbered". Check:
"The unnumbered hordes of the dark lord swept down on our lonely caravan." "The innumerable hordes of the dark lord swept down on our loney caravan." "The innocuous hordes of the dark lord swept down on our lonely caravan."
John.
Brian M. Scott - 18 Jan 2007 18:22 GMT On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 03:02:26 GMT, John Atkinson <johnacko@bigpond.com> wrote in <news:6rBrh.2651$u8.2024@news-server.bigpond.net.au> in alt.english.usage,sci.lang:
[...]
> "Enumerable", meaning "countable" (i.e., capable of being > lined up one-to-one against the set of natural numbers), [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > if you had innumerable enumerable sets -- or even an > unenumerable number of them. I'd just say 'uncountably many of them'! I rarely use 'enumerable', but when I do, it has [i] rather than the [I] of 'innumerable'.
[...]
Brian
Peter T. Daniels - 18 Jan 2007 20:06 GMT > On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 03:02:26 GMT, John Atkinson > <johnacko@bigpond.com> wrote in [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > I'd just say 'uncountably many of them'! That's mathematicianese. The English for that is "countless."
> I rarely use > 'enumerable', but when I do, it has [i] rather than the [I] > of 'innumerable'. Brian M. Scott - 18 Jan 2007 20:27 GMT On 18 Jan 2007 12:06:37 -0800, "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@verizon.net> wrote in <news:1169150796.745409.113430@l53g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> in alt.english.usage,sci.lang:
>> On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 03:02:26 GMT, John Atkinson >> <johnacko@bigpond.com> wrote in >> <news:6rBrh.2651$u8.2024@news-server.bigpond.net.au> in >> alt.english.usage,sci.lang:
>> [...]
>>> "Enumerable", meaning "countable" (i.e., capable of being >>> lined up one-to-one against the set of natural numbers), [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >>> if you had innumerable enumerable sets -- or even an >>> unenumerable number of them.
>> I'd just say 'uncountably many of them'!
> That's mathematicianese. The English for that is "countless." Look at the parenthesis: John was explicitly talking about the mathematical sense, and in that setting 'countless' is simply wrong.
[...]
Brian
Peter T. Daniels - 18 Jan 2007 21:48 GMT > On 18 Jan 2007 12:06:37 -0800, "Peter T. Daniels" > <grammatim@verizon.net> wrote in [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > the mathematical sense, and in that setting 'countless' is > simply wrong. The parenthesis was precisely that -- a parenthesis. The key phrase is "it's unlikely to happen in practice."
Brian M. Scott - 18 Jan 2007 22:04 GMT On 18 Jan 2007 13:48:21 -0800, "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@verizon.net> wrote in <news:1169156900.939547.284170@m58g2000cwm.googlegroups.com> in alt.english.usage,sci.lang:
>> On 18 Jan 2007 12:06:37 -0800, "Peter T. Daniels" >> <grammatim@verizon.net> wrote in >> <news:1169150796.745409.113430@l53g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> >> in alt.english.usage,sci.lang:
>>>> On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 03:02:26 GMT, John Atkinson >>>> <johnacko@bigpond.com> wrote in >>>> <news:6rBrh.2651$u8.2024@news-server.bigpond.net.au> in >>>> alt.english.usage,sci.lang:
>>>> [...]
>>>>> "Enumerable", meaning "countable" (i.e., capable of being >>>>> lined up one-to-one against the set of natural numbers), [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >>>>> if you had innumerable enumerable sets -- or even an >>>>> unenumerable number of them.
>>>> I'd just say 'uncountably many of them'!
>>> That's mathematicianese. The English for that is "countless."
>> Look at the parenthesis: John was explicitly talking about >> the mathematical sense, and in that setting 'countless' is >> simply wrong.
> The parenthesis was precisely that -- a parenthesis. A parenthetical remark clarifying 'countable' for those who wouldn't otherwise understand it.
On my reading the parenthesis gives the intended sense of 'enumerable' and so defines the context in question. The later 'innumerable enumerable sets' reinforces the set-theoretic context.
> The key phrase is "it's unlikely to happen in practice." Indeed it's not, partly because 'enumerable' is uncommon, especially outside of mathematics (and even in mathematics is less common than 'countable' and 'denumerable', save in the collocation 'recursively enumerable', which is frequently reduced to 'r.e.' anyway), and partly because people likely to talk about enumerable sets are relatively unlikely to speak so nebulously about the number of them on hand.
Brian
John Atkinson - 19 Jan 2007 00:49 GMT "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> wrote...
>> Brian M. Scott wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > unlikely to speak so nebulously about the number of them on > hand. Well, like you say Brian, I tend to use the equivalent term "countable" rather than either "enumerable" or "denumerable". But, despite what you say, I can easily imagine saying "innumerable enumerable sets" when speaking informally about a mathematical topic (maybe I'm giving a lecture, or in casual discussion in the tearoom). And though, like you, I pronounce the first with [I] and the second with [i:], the first syllable in both words is unstressed, often slurred, and easily misheard. The reason I said "it's unlikely to happen in practice" is, that I find it hard to think of a case where replacing one by the other would produce a sentence which a hearer might even for a moment accept. In particular, the noun phrase "enumerable innumerable sets" makes absolutely no sense at all, either in mathematicianese or any other variety.
John.
Brian M. Scott - 19 Jan 2007 21:04 GMT On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 00:49:27 GMT, John Atkinson <johnacko@bigpond.com> wrote in <news:rAUrh.3051$u8.1483@news-server.bigpond.net.au> in alt.english.usage,sci.lang:
> "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> wrote... [...]
>> Indeed it's not, partly because 'enumerable' is uncommon, >> especially outside of mathematics (and even in mathematics [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> unlikely to speak so nebulously about the number of them on >> hand.
> Well, like you say Brian, I tend to use the equivalent > term "countable" rather than either "enumerable" or [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > giving a lecture, or in casual discussion in the > tearoom). I can easily imagine saying it; I just wouldn't follow through! Well, unless I were deliberately going for the -numerable^2 effect. If I wanted to indicate a large but completely indeterminate number, I'd be more likely to say 'a boatload of', 'scads of', 'oodles and gobs of', 'more than enouth ... to', 'some ridiculous number of', or what have you. (Besides, I did say '*relatively* unlikely'.)
[...]
Brian
Paul J Kriha - 20 Jan 2007 18:05 GMT > On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 00:49:27 GMT, John Atkinson > <johnacko@bigpond.com> wrote in [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > -numerable^2 effect. If I wanted to indicate a large but > completely indeterminate number, Recently I argued with a friend about "gazillions" vs "zillions". We couldn't agree which one of them was larger and of more indeterminate size. :-) pjk
> I'd be more likely to say > 'a boatload of', 'scads of', 'oodles and gobs of', 'more [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Brian John Dean - 20 Jan 2007 18:53 GMT > Recently I argued with a friend about "gazillions" vs "zillions". > We couldn't agree which one of them was larger and of more > indeterminate size. :-) You should have told him you had bajillions of examples for your word.
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Paul J Kriha - 21 Jan 2007 07:09 GMT > > Recently I argued with a friend about "gazillions" vs "zillions". > > We couldn't agree which one of them was larger and of more > > indeterminate size. :-) > > You should have told him you had bajillions of examples for your word. Bajillions, ey? Down'ere we are just a small little country lost in the middle of the Southern Seas. Hardly anybody can efford to talk bajillions.
Google tells me that only nineteen people from .nz have bajillions. Perhaps the Old Country could lend us some of their superfluous ones?
pjk
John Dean - 21 Jan 2007 13:15 GMT >>> Recently I argued with a friend about "gazillions" vs "zillions". >>> We couldn't agree which one of them was larger and of more [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Google tells me that only nineteen people from .nz have bajillions. > Perhaps the Old Country could lend us some of their superfluous ones? I'm afraid all our bajillions are in use right now but if you'd care to hold we will connect you with a squillion as soon as possible.
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Paul J Kriha - 22 Jan 2007 08:58 GMT > >>> Recently I argued with a friend about "gazillions" vs "zillions". > >>> We couldn't agree which one of them was larger and of more [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I'm afraid all our bajillions are in use right now but if you'd care to hold > we will connect you with a squillion as soon as possible. That sounds a bit oldy wordly to me, strangely familiar.... IMPERIAL? Is it metric? If I were to be found dealing with merchants of <deep voice>Imperial<deep voice off>, I could be dragged down to <shriek> Helengrad to face the decaphonic.
pjk
P.S. Saw recently a note from a guy who said his new PC had squillions of plinkabytes.
Nigel Greenwood - 22 Jan 2007 10:08 GMT > Recently I argued with a friend about "gazillions" vs "zillions". > We couldn't agree which one of them was larger and of more > indeterminate size. :-) I would say that Umpteen was rather larger than either.
Nigel
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andrew_woode@hotmail.com - 22 Jan 2007 12:34 GMT > > Recently I argued with a friend about "gazillions" vs "zillions". > > We couldn't agree which one of them was larger and of more > > indeterminate size. :-) > > I would say that Umpteen was rather larger than either. I was under the impression that a zillion was ten to the power umpteen...
> Nigel > > -- > ScriptMaster language resources (Chinese/Modern & Classical > Greek/IPA/Persian/Russian/Turkish): > http://www.elgin.free-online.co.uk ChrisR - 22 Jan 2007 15:38 GMT >> > Recently I argued with a friend about "gazillions" vs "zillions". >> > We couldn't agree which one of them was larger and of more [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> Greek/IPA/Persian/Russian/Turkish): >> http://www.elgin.free-online.co.uk That's an American zillion. A British zillion is of course a squillion squared. Or is the other way round?
Chris R
Peter T. Daniels - 22 Jan 2007 15:50 GMT > >> > Recently I argued with a friend about "gazillions" vs "zillions". > >> > We couldn't agree which one of them was larger and of more [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > That's an American zillion. A British zillion is of course a squillion > squared. Or is the other way round? Americans don't even _have_ squillions.
Did I see it in a Harry Potter? or maybe a David Lodge?
ChrisR - 22 Jan 2007 16:02 GMT >> > I was under the impression that a zillion was ten to the power >> > umpteen... [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Americans don't even _have_ squillions. Surely they must have. There are some pretty rich Americans around.
Chris R
Peter T. Daniels - 22 Jan 2007 23:09 GMT > >> > I was under the impression that a zillion was ten to the power > >> > umpteen... [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > > Surely they must have. There are some pretty rich Americans around. They have zillions and gazillions, but not squillions or bazillions.
Peter T. Daniels - 23 Jan 2007 14:05 GMT > > >> > I was under the impression that a zillion was ten to the power > > >> > umpteen... [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > They have zillions and gazillions, but not squillions or bazillions. Oh, and they also have jillions and bajillions.
Paul J Kriha - 23 Jan 2007 16:53 GMT > > > >> > I was under the impression that a zillion was ten to the power > > > >> > umpteen... [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Oh, and they also have jillions and bajillions. Please, come back milliard, billiard, trilliard, quadrilliard, et cetera, all is forgiven!
pjk
Peter T. Daniels - 23 Jan 2007 20:48 GMT > > > > >> > I was under the impression that a zillion was ten to the power > > > > >> > umpteen... [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Please, come back milliard, billiard, trilliard, quadrilliard, et cetera, > all is forgiven! A tad too precise for the purpose. (If any but the first even ever existed.)
Paul J Kriha - 24 Jan 2007 12:27 GMT > > > > > >> > I was under the impression that a zillion was ten to the power > > > > > >> > umpteen... [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > A tad too precise for the purpose. True. One doesn't always want to be absolutely precise.
> (If any but the first even ever existed.) But of course they did, and in many languages they still do.
For every <something>illion in those languages you have <same-something>illiard, where the -illiard is equal exactly one thousand -illions and every next -illion is million times the previous -illion.
The mi- bi- tri- quadri-, etc. go up in multiples of million. However, in AmE (and lately in other Englishes as well) they go up in mutiples of one thousand.
pjk
John Dean - 22 Jan 2007 16:45 GMT >>>>> Recently I argued with a friend about "gazillions" vs "zillions". >>>>> We couldn't agree which one of them was larger and of more [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Americans don't even _have_ squillions. Alternative view: Americans invented squillions. Earliest OED cite is: "1943 Z. N. Hurston in Amer. Mercury LVII. 456/2 The deep blue sea+was a pearly blue, like ten squillion big pearl jewels dissolved in running gold." And Zora was as American as they come.
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Pat Durkin - 22 Jan 2007 18:29 GMT >>>>>> Recently I argued with a friend about "gazillions" vs "zillions". >>>>>> We couldn't agree which one of them was larger and of more [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > running gold." > And Zora was as American as they come. She could at least witness God second hand. . .Their eyes were watching God.
Tony Cooper - 22 Jan 2007 19:47 GMT >Alternative view: >Americans invented squillions. >Earliest OED cite is: > "1943 Z. N. Hurston in Amer. Mercury LVII. 456/2 The deep blue sea+was a >pearly blue, like ten squillion big pearl jewels dissolved in running gold." >And Zora was as American as they come. Zora was born in Eatonville, FL - one of the first (if not the first) all-black cities in the US. Eatonville is just up (or maybe it's down) the road from me. The annual Zora Neale Hurston Festival started Saturday. Eatonville's other famous native son was "Deacon" Jones, one of the best defensive ends in AmFootball.
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Peter T. Daniels - 22 Jan 2007 23:07 GMT > >>>>> Recently I argued with a friend about "gazillions" vs "zillions". > >>>>> We couldn't agree which one of them was larger and of more [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > pearly blue, like ten squillion big pearl jewels dissolved in running gold." > And Zora was as American as they come. Really? How much do you know about her?
If she introduced the word, then her work must have had much more currency in Britain than in the US, since she was almost entirely forgotten when the Library of America included her among the first authors it reprinted quite a few years ago. That publication brought initial appreciation of her work -- she died a cleaning woman or something like that -- that she never had in her lifetime.
Tony Cooper - 23 Jan 2007 00:38 GMT >> Alternative view: >> Americans invented squillions. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >initial appreciation of her work -- she died a cleaning woman or >something like that -- that she never had in her lifetime. Vanessa Williams narrated a history of Ms Hurston on NPR this weekend, and I caught most of it. She was employed as a maid when she died. Some of her writing is required reading now in Florida schools. That's probably because she was born in Florida and died in Florida.
One of the reasons she never became particularly famous - according to the narration I heard - is because she was criticized so roundly by the other black authors of the day. They thought her style was not dignified enough and did not represent the black intellectualism they were striving to emphasize. They also criticized her for not writing enough about black issues; an objective they thought all black authors should have. Because of their influence, some of her work was never published.
One of the interesting points of the program was that it was the custom of the day to burn all of the contents and property of indigents who died. A neighbor, a black policeman, saw the bonfire after Ms Hurston's death and rescued what he could from the blaze. A great deal of her unpublished writing was destroyed, however. We'll never really know how good she was.
As I mentioned in another post, the week-long Zora Neale Hurston Festival is going on this week in the nearby town of Eatonville, FL.
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Tony Cooper Orlando, FL
John Dean - 23 Jan 2007 00:58 GMT >>>>>>> Recently I argued with a friend about "gazillions" vs >>>>>>> "zillions". We couldn't agree which one of them was larger and [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Really? How much do you know about her? Apparently more than you. But since you are to mention the Library of America later in this text, let me repeat what they say of their mission: http://www.libraryofamerica.org/page.jsp?id=201 "The Library of America was founded in 1979 to undertake a historic endeavor: to help preserve the nation's cultural heritage by publishing America's best and most significant writing in durable and authoritative editions." The LoA editor of her work said "These groundbreaking works, suffused with the culture and traditions of African-Americans and the poetry of black speech, are the reason Zora Neale Hurston is now recognized as one of the most significant modern American writers."
So she was, in their view, one of America's best and most significant. So what with that and her renowned use of Afro-American dialect, I think "as American as they come" is pretty much OK. BTW, OED uses her quotes 125 times.
> If she introduced the word, An unwarranted and unwarrantable assumption. "earliest cite" means no more and no less than "earliest cite".
>then her work must have had much more > currency in Britain than in the US, She was known in the UK but not, I hazard, well known. I believe that's still the case. Oxfordshire Libraries currently hold seven copies of five of her works. Amazon UK has a wide selection of works, most in quite recent editions.
> since she was almost entirely > forgotten when the Library of America included her among the first > authors it reprinted quite a few years ago. That publication brought > initial appreciation of her work -- she died a cleaning woman or > something like that -- that she never had in her lifetime. See Tony's remarks about the annual Zora Hurston festival. Like many artists, she fell out of favour and has now returned, having died in poverty. Given that she published 10 books through the 20s, 30s and 40s I wouldn't say she didn't have appreciation during her lifetime. Unappreciated authors are lucky to get published twice. When LoA began its work in 1979, Hurston had already been reclaimed by virtue of authors like Alice Walker expressing appreciation of her work some years earlier - Walker found Hurston's grave in 1973. I'm not clear what the "... died a cleaning woman or something ..." adds or even contributes here.
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Tony Cooper - 23 Jan 2007 02:12 GMT >I'm not clear what the "... died a cleaning woman or something ..." adds or >even contributes here. It really is germane. The fact that an author whose writings appeared regularly in magazines, whose books were popular, and was - at one time - regaled as a member of the "Harlem Renaissance", fell out of favor both with the public and with her own circle of people ended up indigent and working as a housemaid is very much part of her story.
Other prominent black writers like W.E.B. DuBois and Langston Hughes used their influence to stop publishers from printing her work. She was virtually driven from the literary scene by other black writers because she didn't conform to what they thought black authors should write about and the style black writers should use.
I have no idea if PeterD was considering this as the basis of his comment, or if adds to the discussion of a word meaning "a whole bunch", but it does contribute to the picture of ZNH.
By the way, I don't want to sound like I'm some sort of authority on ZNH. She's familiar to me because of her local connection and because she is often written up in the local newspaper. Most of what I know about her, though, is the result of listening to an hour-long narrative about her on the radio just a couple of days ago.
If we go to the ZNH Festival next weekend, it will probably be because any festival in Eatonville is a lively affair and there will be some good, if not great, soul food and ribs available at the concession stands.
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Phil Carmody - 22 Jan 2007 16:03 GMT > > > Recently I argued with a friend about "gazillions" vs "zillions". > > > We couldn't agree which one of them was larger and of more [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I was under the impression that a zillion was ten to the power > umpteen... Thread hijack - umpteen or umteen?
(please include location of greatest language influence with any reply.)
To a londoner, it's always got the 'p', it's even pronounced, but I'm seeing a lot without nowadays.
Phil
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Barbara Bailey - 22 Jan 2007 19:30 GMT >> > > Recently I argued with a friend about "gazillions" vs "zillions". >> > > We couldn't agree which one of them was larger and of more [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >Phil For this US Midwesterner, "Umpteen".
Noncountable numbers: a few a handful some umpteen scads lots loads a boatload a sh*tload a metric sh*tload ... a zillion a bazillion a gazillion
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Ron Jarvis - 23 Jan 2007 14:04 GMT >>>>> Recently I argued with a friend about "gazillions" vs "zillions". >>>>> We couldn't agree which one of them was larger and of more [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > a bazillion > a gazillion And don't forget "a cubic fuckton."
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Colin Fine - 28 Jan 2007 12:21 GMT >>>>> Recently I argued with a friend about "gazillions" vs "zillions". >>>>> We couldn't agree which one of them was larger and of more [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > a bazillion > a gazillion a mess
Colin
Nigel Greenwood - 23 Jan 2007 15:18 GMT > Thread hijack - umpteen or umteen? > > (please include location of greatest language influence with any reply.) > > To a londoner, it's always got the 'p', it's even pronounced, > but I'm seeing a lot without nowadays. I suspect that close textual analysis of the English Tintin will reveal that Thomson tends to say "umteen", while his colleague Thompson plumps for "umpteen".
Nigel
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Paul J Kriha - 23 Jan 2007 16:46 GMT > > Thread hijack - umpteen or umteen? > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > that Thomson tends to say "umteen", while his colleague Thompson plumps > for "umpteen". While Sitiveni Rabuka and people in Nadi will pronounce it "umpteen" but write it as "upteen".
Unless, of course, they pronounce it "umteen" and write "uteen".
pjk
> Nigel Nigel Greenwood - 23 Jan 2007 15:19 GMT > Thread hijack - umpteen or umteen? > > (please include location of greatest language influence with any reply.) > > To a londoner, it's always got the 'p', it's even pronounced, > but I'm seeing a lot without nowadays. I suspect that close textual analysis of the English Tintin will reveal that Thomson tends to say "umteen", while his colleague Thompson plumps for "umpteen".
Nigel
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Paul J Kriha - 23 Jan 2007 07:04 GMT > > Recently I argued with a friend about "gazillions" vs "zillions". > > We couldn't agree which one of them was larger and of more [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Nigel Oh no, that is so wrong! :-))) I take it you post from the Old Country, Nigel. Down under umpteen is something much smaller than a -zillion.
Examples: (1) "For the umpteenth time" yells mother hysterically "do NOT spit!" (2) "Sailing one's own yacht in America's Cup race costs zillions"
Umpteen is a measure of something still within a normal daily human scale. But zillion is an unknown and frighteningly unpredictable multiple of millions, perhaps even billions. :-)
pjk
Brian M. Scott - 23 Jan 2007 18:45 GMT >>> Recently I argued with a friend about "gazillions" vs "zillions". >>> We couldn't agree which one of them was larger and of more >>> indeterminate size. :-)
>> I would say that Umpteen was rather larger than either.
> Oh no, that is so wrong! :-))) I agree.
> I take it you post from the Old Country, Nigel. > Down under umpteen is something much smaller than a -zillion.
> Examples: > (1) > "For the umpteenth time" yells mother hysterically "do NOT spit!" Indeed, an almost stereotypical example.
> (2) > "Sailing one's own yacht in America's Cup race costs zillions"
> Umpteen is a measure of something still within a normal > daily human scale. But zillion is an unknown and frighteningly > unpredictable multiple of millions, perhaps even billions. :-) I haven't got 'zillions'; 'gazillions', perhaps, but not 'zillions'. Actually, I don't think that I use any of them nowadays, but when we were kids, we used 'jillions' and perhaps on rare occasions 'squillions' (pace Peter).
Brian
John Dean - 24 Jan 2007 05:35 GMT >>> Recently I argued with a friend about "gazillions" vs "zillions". >>> We couldn't agree which one of them was larger and of more [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Umpteen is a measure of something still within a normal > daily human scale. Indeed. Witness the use in the Gregorian calendar eg "The battle of Zimzam occurred on the Umpteenth of Octember, Seventeen fish and chips".
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Brian M. Scott - 25 Jan 2007 18:47 GMT On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 05:35:29 -0000, John Dean <john-dean@fraglineone.net> wrote in <news:ep6r9n$46b$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> in alt.english.usage,sci.lang:
[...]
>> Umpteen is a measure of something still within a normal >> daily human scale.
> Indeed. Witness the use in the Gregorian calendar eg "The > battle of Zimzam occurred on the Umpteenth of Octember, > Seventeen fish and chips". There are also 'for the umpty-third time', 'umpty-three generals and no privates', and the like, always, in my experience, with '-three' and '-third'.
Brian
John Dean - 26 Jan 2007 00:46 GMT > On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 05:35:29 -0000, John Dean > <john-dean@fraglineone.net> wrote in [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > generals and no privates', and the like, always, in my > experience, with '-three' and '-third'. Tracing through entries in OED, it seems the likely candidate for original use is "iddy-umpty" as a slang term for Morse Code.
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Colin Fine - 28 Jan 2007 12:23 GMT > On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 05:35:29 -0000, John Dean > <john-dean@fraglineone.net> wrote in [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Brian Umpty-froo is more common in my experience.
Colin
Brian M. Scott - 28 Jan 2007 18:20 GMT On Sun, 28 Jan 2007 12:23:04 +0000, Colin Fine <news@kindness.demon.co.uk> wrote in <news:epi4j9$8mq$3$8302bc10@news.demon.co.uk> in alt.english.usage,sci.lang:
>> On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 05:35:29 -0000, John Dean >> <john-dean@fraglineone.net> wrote in >> <news:ep6r9n$46b$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> in >> alt.english.usage,sci.lang:
>> [...]
>>>> Umpteen is a measure of something still within a normal >>>> daily human scale.
>>> Indeed. Witness the use in the Gregorian calendar eg "The >>> battle of Zimzam occurred on the Umpteenth of Octember, >>> Seventeen fish and chips".
>> There are also 'for the umpty-third time', 'umpty-three >> generals and no privates', and the like, always, in my >> experience, with '-three' and '-third'.
> Umpty-froo is more common in my experience. And until now non-existent in mine, though it does remind me that I have on very rare occasions encountered 'umpty-two'.
Brian
Barbara Bailey - 29 Jan 2007 16:15 GMT >On Sun, 28 Jan 2007 12:23:04 +0000, Colin Fine ><news@kindness.demon.co.uk> wrote in [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > >Brian My mother often used "umpty-ump". She was Nothern Illinois born and bred.
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Colin Fine - 28 Jan 2007 12:16 GMT >> On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 03:02:26 GMT, John Atkinson >> <johnacko@bigpond.com> wrote in [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > That's mathematicianese. The English for that is "countless." Indeed it is not. 'Countless', despite its surface meaning, is unspecific as to enumerability.
I pronounce 'enumerable' with [I], and would double the /n/ if I wished to say 'innumerable'.
Colin
Neeraj Mathur - 20 Jan 2007 01:11 GMT > "Neeraj Mathur" <neeraj.k.mathur@gmail.com> wrote... > > No, not all; I would never geminate 'innate' or 'innovate', for [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > don't have it in my lexicon, and if I did it'd probably merge with > emerge in a cloud of spray. English has borrowed inconsistently (or at least, what has survived is inconsistent): 'emerge' and 'submerge' from the Latin present stem, but 'immerse' from the past participle. I would recognise 'immerge' if I saw it, and equate it to 'immerse'; if I heard it, I assume I would probably guess that the speaker was trying to say 'emerge', and use context to figure out what they meant.
> "Enumerable", meaning "countable" (i.e., capable of being lined up > one-to-one against the set of natural numbers), I do have. It never > occured to me that it might be unfamiliar to innumerate Arts students. Innumerate I am not; I suppose that the word has passed from active to passive vocabulary as jargon for a subject which I haven't studied since high school Calculus five years ago. 'Enumerate' is much more active these days in a political context for me.
> The likely confusion in speech with "innumerable" isn't a big deal for > me since it's unlikely to happen in practice. Even if you had [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > "The innocuous hordes of the dark lord swept down on our lonely > caravan." Perhaps the lengthening then is purely a phonetic issue: do you pronounce 'innumerate' etc with a glide after the 'n'? (So [In(:)jum-]?) Maybe that's the trigger for a lengthened n in your dialect.
Come to think of it, I don't really know whether my lengthening is due to the glide or to interference from the Latin itself. (I've noticed that my speech is very susceptible to interference by things which interest me as a linguist, if you know what I mean. So I'll notice that somebody has a very interesting affrication of a final /t/, and then three days later hear myself doing it in a completely random context.)
Neeraj Mathur
John Atkinson - 20 Jan 2007 10:49 GMT "Neeraj Mathur" <neeraj.k.mathur@gmail.com> wrote...
>> "Neeraj Mathur" <neeraj.k.mathur@gmail.com> wrote...
>> > No, not all; I would never geminate 'innate' or 'innovate', for >> > instance. I would always geminate 'innumerable'. My best guess is [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > probably guess that the speaker was trying to say 'emerge', and use > context to figure out what they meant. Interesting. It hadn't occured to me that "mergere" and "mersum" were the same verb in Latin. Apparently the change in meaning of "merge" (from "dip, plunge" to "combine with, losing its own identity thereby") comes via legal French, where "merger" meant "drown".
>> "Enumerable", meaning "countable" (i.e., capable of being lined up >> one-to-one against the set of natural numbers), I do have. It never [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > since high school Calculus five years ago. 'Enumerate' is much more > active these days in a political context for me. I've never come across the meaning you give, viz, "can be registered to vote". I see from Google that it's used in various countries, but especially in Canada, where they didn't used to keep permanent lists of registered voters, but used to employ special "enumerators" to go round door-to-door after an election was called registering voters.
>> The likely confusion in speech with "innumerable" isn't a big deal >> for [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > [In(:)jum-]?) Maybe that's the trigger for a lengthened n in your > dialect. Yes, I do. And yes, the evidence does strongly suggest that that's the trigger, though I can't think of any "theoretical" reason why it should be a trigger. Can you?
[...]
John.
Neeraj Mathur - 20 Jan 2007 19:58 GMT > I've never come across the meaning you give, viz, "can be registered to > vote". I see from Google that it's used in various countries, but > especially in Canada, where they didn't used to keep permanent lists of > registered voters, but used to employ special "enumerators" to go round > door-to-door after an election was called registering voters. Yes; it never occurred to me that this was a specifically Canadian usage. We were taught in school about the enumerators, but the system changed to have a permanent list a few years later. Even still, the registration process is often called 'enumeration'.
I don't know why I keep getting surprised at Canada's unique political vocabulary, things like 'enumerate' and 'riding'. I'd always assumed that what wasn't American was British!
> Yes, I do. And yes, the evidence does strongly suggest that that's the > trigger, though I can't think of any "theoretical" reason why it should > be a trigger. Can you? No, I can't. Perhaps I spoke too soon though: if this is the case, it ought to apply to words with comparable stress patterns, like 'renewable', but it doesn't (at least not for me).
Neeraj Mathur
Brian M. Scott - 20 Jan 2007 20:18 GMT On 20 Jan 2007 11:58:17 -0800, Neeraj Mathur <neeraj.k.mathur@gmail.com> wrote in <news:1169323097.865978.14780@11g2000cwr.googlegroups.com> in alt.english.usage,sci.lang:
[...]
> I don't know why I keep getting surprised at Canada's > unique political vocabulary, things like 'enumerate' and > 'riding'. I'd always assumed that what wasn't American > was British! Speaking of ridings, I find it quite amusing that Canada has 308 federal 'thirds' (þriðjungar).
[...]
Brian
Paul J Kriha - 21 Jan 2007 06:53 GMT > On 20 Jan 2007 11:58:17 -0800, Neeraj Mathur > <neeraj.k.mathur@gmail.com> wrote in [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Speaking of ridings, I find it quite amusing that Canada has > 308 federal 'thirds' (þriðjungar). Any selfrespecting European town consists of at least twenty quarters. pjk
Nigel Greenwood - 22 Jan 2007 10:05 GMT > Yes; it never occurred to me that this was a specifically Canadian > usage. We were taught in school about the enumerators, but the system > changed to have a permanent list a few years later. Even still, the > registration process is often called 'enumeration'. Quis enumerabit ipsos enumeratores?
Nigel
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Peter T. Daniels - 18 Jan 2007 04:23 GMT > > "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@verizon.net> wrote... > > > [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > (=countless) vs 'enumerable' (='can be registered to vote', if I had to > give it a meaning)). That seems about right, eh.
John Varela - 11 Jan 2007 00:30 GMT > There must be quite a sizeable class of words that one recognizes & > understands without necessarily being able to pronounce them confidently. I once pronounced "behemoth". Since then I've learned the correct pronunciation, but have never had another opportunity to use it.
I'm probably not alone in pronouncing "centrifugal" with stress on the first and third syllables on my first attempt.
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Emungo - 11 Jan 2007 10:09 GMT > > There must be quite a sizeable class of words that one recognizes & > > understands without necessarily being able to pronounce them confidently. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > John Varela > Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. I my 3rd year as an undergraduate I wrote an essay on some aspect of Hellenistic history (can't remember what) which used the highly debased and rather vague concepts of centrifugalism and centripetalism. When reading it out to my tutor I decided to use what I had relatively recently discovered was the approved stress pattern for "centripetal" and "centrifugal", with stress on the second syllable in each case. But as soon as I did it the first time I knew it was a mistake - it sounded strained and awkward, verging on the bizarre. Unfortunately I had now nailed my colours to the post and the words cropped up about three or four times every paragraph (typical crappy undergrad writing); it was also quite a long essay. By the end of the ordeal every instance of one of the words was falling leadenly from my lips like a cruelly maimed, aborted thing. It thoroughly cured me; since then, it's been the (for me) decidely more euphonious, not to say euphemious, stressed, long third syllable every time.
As far as I can recall the tutor (not otherwise a very considerate man) cleverly avoided making use of either word at all in appraising the essay when I had stopped.
Peter T. Daniels - 11 Jan 2007 14:19 GMT > > > There must be quite a sizeable class of words that one recognizes & > > > understands without necessarily being able to pronounce them confidently. [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > cleverly avoided making use of either word at all in appraising the > essay when I had stopped. What I don't understand about English universities is why students have to read their essays out loud -- is it that the tutors are illiterate? It would take up far less time to read them rather than hear them!
M-W offers centriFUgal as an "esp. Brit." pronunciation, but does _not_ register a corresponding centriPEtal, perhaps because British students are expected to know their Latin long vowels from their short ones.
Emungo - 15 Jan 2007 11:49 GMT > > > > There must be quite a sizeable class of words that one recognizes & > > > > understands without necessarily being able to pronounce them confidently. [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > to read their essays out loud -- is it that the tutors are illiterate? > It would take up far less time to read them rather than hear them! That's the point. It's a ruse to help fill up the hour-long tutorial. Both don and undergraduate are grateful for the option.
> M-W offers centriFUgal as an "esp. Brit." pronunciation, but does _not_ > register a corresponding centriPEtal, perhaps because British students > are expected to know their Latin long vowels from their short ones. Vowel stress is not, however, the same as vowel length, though the penult rule would here have that effect. But I'm surprised to find you suggesting Modern English pronunciation should follow the prosody rules of an ancient language. Also even if centRIpetal is possible centRIpetalism/centRIfugalism are quite hard to take on when you've been up all night drinking coffee and writing a rubbishy essay.
Peter T. Daniels - 15 Jan 2007 13:48 GMT > > > > > There must be quite a sizeable class of words that one recognizes & > > > > > understands without necessarily being able to pronounce them confidently. [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > That's the point. It's a ruse to help fill up the hour-long tutorial. > Both don and undergraduate are grateful for the option. That begs the question of hour-long tutorials in the first place. Why are they considered preferable to classes or seminars?
> > M-W offers centriFUgal as an "esp. Brit." pronunciation, but does _not_ > > register a corresponding centriPEtal, perhaps because British students [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > penult rule would here have that effect. But I'm surprised to find you > suggesting Modern English pronunciation should follow the prosody rules There's no "should" about it. A pronunciation with stressed PE isn't recorded.
An explanation for why the one occurs and the other doesn't is that these are learned words, used by people who are supposed to be quite familiar with Latin and thus might (affectedly) import Latin rules of prosody into English.
> of an ancient language. Also even if centRIpetal is possible > centRIpetalism/centRIfugalism are quite hard to take on when you've > been up all night drinking coffee and writing a rubbishy essay. They are, however, the stress patterns that are normal for English.
Perhaps if one's essays are "rubbishy," one shouldn't be at Oxford.
Emungo - 15 Jan 2007 14:28 GMT > > > > > > There must be quite a sizeable class of words that one recognizes & > > > > > > understands without necessarily being able to pronounce them confidently. [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] > > Perhaps if one's essays are "rubbishy," one shouldn't be at Oxford. Ouch. With you, the rough and tumble of the playground always has to go that tiny little bit too far, doesn't it?
Obviously it's all relative; my rubbishy was most people's unattainably brilliant. I won't deny it's been downhill since then, ending up in internet discussion groups attracting apparently motiveless swipes from humourless North American professors.
Peter T. Daniels - 16 Jan 2007 00:02 GMT > > > > What I don't understand about English universities is why students have > > > > to read their essays out loud -- is it that the tutors are illiterate? [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > internet discussion groups attracting apparently motiveless swipes from > humourless North American professors. The only North American professors I can think of here are Brian Scott and Herman Rubin, and neither of them is humorless.
'Twould've been nice, though, if you'd addressed the substantive point.
Joachim Pense - 16 Jan 2007 05:52 GMT Am 15 Jan 2007 16:02:48 -0800 schrieb Peter T. Daniels:
> The only North American professors I can think of here are Brian Scott > and Herman Rubin What about Nathan? (Well, _Assistant_ Professor, ...)
Joachim
Peter T. Daniels - 16 Jan 2007 14:09 GMT > Am 15 Jan 2007 16:02:48 -0800 schrieb Peter T. Daniels: > > > The only North American professors I can think of here are Brian Scott > > and Herman Rubin > > What about Nathan? (Well, _Assistant_ Professor, ...) Of course! Sorry. There was also John Lawler I, late of this newsgroup (not lately, though).
Brian M. Scott - 16 Jan 2007 15:43 GMT On 16 Jan 2007 06:09:16 -0800, "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@verizon.net> wrote in <news:1168956556.385169.4920@q2g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> in alt.english.usage,sci.lang:
>> Am 15 Jan 2007 16:02:48 -0800 schrieb Peter T. Daniels:
>>> The only North American professors I can think of here are Brian Scott >>> and Herman Rubin
>> What about Nathan? (Well, _Assistant_ Professor, ...)
> Of course! Sorry. There was also John Lawler I, late of this newsgroup > (not lately, though). And Greg Lee, with the same qualification.
Brian
Peter T. Daniels - 16 Jan 2007 22:46 GMT > On 16 Jan 2007 06:09:16 -0800, "Peter T. Daniels" > <grammatim@verizon.net> wrote in [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > And Greg Lee, with the same qualification. Is Hawaii in North America?
*More lately
More recently than John, though.
Franz Gnaedinger - 16 Jan 2007 07:48 GMT > Obviously it's all relative; my rubbishy was most people's unattainably > brilliant. I won't deny it's been downhill since then, ending up in > internet discussion groups attracting apparently motiveless swipes from > humourless North American professors. You have come a long way down from Oxford to sci.lang. If you can't stand humorless professors, may I recommend humorless kooks? I for one honor your honesty. You wrote rubbish, you confessed, a rubbish essay. Other Oxford students paste articles from the Web into their essays and even doctoral theses, without much as bothering about rephrasing what they have been stealing. You are different. You could have pasted rubbish from the Web into your essay, but no, you wrote it yourself, all on your own, late in the evening, deep into the night. Bravo, young man.
Emungo - 16 Jan 2007 12:21 GMT > > Obviously it's all relative; my rubbishy was most people's unattainably > > brilliant. I won't deny it's been downhill since then, ending up in [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > essay, but no, you wrote it yourself, all on your own, late > in the evening, deep into the night. Bravo, young man. Alas, I'm not young. The events recounted took place years ago, long before the advent of the internet. Not quite sure what a kook is, I'm afraid.
It was just an anecdote, which seemed relevant to the issue being discussed at the time it was posted. Not particularly incisive. Certainly not dazzlingly witty. Much less relevant than the best posts, but more than many others. It was intended to be told in a mildly self-deprecating way which seems to have failed entirely or at any rate to have escaped the grasp of PTD at least, who while perhaps not a professor is certainly as humourless as lump of unworked stone when he wants to be.
As to the 'substantive point', which I think had become the viability of centRIfugalism as a stress pattern, all I can say is I've never heard it in BrEng.
Franz Gnaedinger - 16 Jan 2007 12:33 GMT > Alas, I'm not young. The events recounted took place years ago, long > before the advent of the internet. Not quite sure what a kook is, I'm > afraid. There are many around here who will love to tell you what a kook is.
> It was just an anecdote, which seemed relevant to the issue being > discussed at the time it was posted. Not particularly incisive. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > professor is certainly as humourless as lump of unworked stone when he > wants to be. Peter T. Daniels tries to be drier than an Englishman, and he succeeds, which amuses me. I get quite some fun out of him.
> As to the 'substantive point', which I think had become the viability > of centRIfugalism as a stress pattern, all I can say is I've never > heard it in BrEng. Could you pronounce centerfold as cent ER fold ?
Neeraj Mathur - 17 Jan 2007 01:56 GMT > > > What I don't understand about English universities is why students have > > > to read their essays out loud -- is it that the tutors are illiterate? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > That begs the question of hour-long tutorials in the first place. Why > are they considered preferable to classes or seminars? I had tutors who preferred the essays in the night before, so that the hour would be spent on discussion. I had other tutors who preferred the essay to be read aloud in tutorial.
The differences are pretty important.
The definition of 'tutorial' at Oxford allows for up to three students at a time; in any case where there is more than one student, reading the essay aloud is the only practical way to ensure that everybody is involved in the discussion.
However, the most important difference, from a student's perspective, is time: when my history tutor wanted the essay in a day before, I had only six days to write each essay; if I had the option of reading it in tutorial, I had a full seven to work on it. Makes a big difference - in my busiest term, I wrote 20 essays, prepared 16 prose compositions, and had 16 (prepared) reading classes, in eight weeks. One less day to write an essay can mean quite a lot to the final product (some of my friends), or to sleep/health patterns (me).
Now, you ask what the point is. Have you had the benefit of learning under both methods (tutorials vs classes/seminars)? The difference is profound. One of my Sanskrit tutors preferred to have large classes - about eight of us at a time, for a two hour (scheduled) session. Two or three essays were read in each session. This was, in comparison with proper tutorials, a nightmare: it meant that the discussion in any given class was essentially limited to the people reading, with everybody else acting as an observer, despite our tutor's best efforts to involve everyone. The atmosphere in a tutorial - even with as many as three students - is completely different: everybody contributes, everybody is involved. The learning is much deeper. Also, with fewer students, everybody's essay (at least) gets attention from the tutor, if not during the tutorial, then at least in written form, which isn't possible in large classes.
I would never have thought to hear an argument that less individual attention could be beneficial to learning!
> > > M-W offers centriFUgal as an "esp. Brit." pronunciation, but does _not_ > > > register a corresponding centriPEtal, perhaps because British students [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > familiar with Latin and thus might (affectedly) import Latin rules of > prosody into English. No such luck: the 'u' is short in Latin.
> > of an ancient language. Also even if centRIpetal is possible > > centRIpetalism/centRIfugalism are quite hard to take on when you've [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Perhaps if one's essays are "rubbishy," one shouldn't be at Oxford. People at Oxford do get third class degrees, or just a basic pass; some even fail. It's not Harvard, where every undergrad gets a shiny plastic 'A'.
Neeraj Mathur
Brian M. Scott - 17 Jan 2007 02:39 GMT On 16 Jan 2007 17:56:42 -0800, Neeraj Mathur <neeraj.k.mathur@gmail.com> wrote in <news:1168999000.761439.128570@a75g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> in alt.english.usage,sci.lang:
[...]
> The definition of 'tutorial' at Oxford allows for up to > three students at a time; in any case where there is more > than one student, reading the essay aloud is the only > practical way to ensure that everybody is involved in the > discussion. Is it? Crit groups for writers are sometimes run that way, but most of the best ones circulate the works to be critted ahead of time, and everyone is expected to read them and come prepared with comments.
[...]
> Now, you ask what the point is. Have you had the benefit > of learning under both methods (tutorials vs > classes/seminars)? The difference is profound. In general the closest thing to a tutorial over here is a so-called readings (or independent study) course. These are usually one-on-one, though I've occasionally taken on two students at once if they wanted to study the same subject. At my university they're the only way to get to teach an advanced topic in which few students are interested (see below), but they don't count towards the instructor's teaching load, so most faculty are rather reluctant to supervise one.
> One of my Sanskrit tutors preferred to have large classes > - about eight of us at a time, for a two hour (scheduled) > session. Er, you do realize that by my standards that's an extremely *small* class? At my university the administration would want to cancel it because it's too small, though it might get special dispensation to run if it were required for an existing major.
[...]
Brian
Neeraj Mathur - 18 Jan 2007 00:27 GMT > On 16 Jan 2007 17:56:42 -0800, Neeraj Mathur > <neeraj.k.mathur@gmail.com> wrote in [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > ahead of time, and everyone is expected to read them and > come prepared with comments. For undergraduate teaching, that would be, in the first instance, impractical (time constraints), and secondly, it would focus too much on one person's work, rather than a full discussion of the topic at hand, for which one essay acts as a springboard (the point isn't to evaluate an essay, it's to explore a topic).
Also, one of the key skills developed in the tutorial system is the ability to quickly understand and respond with cogency to an argument offered on a topic being studied. It's one of the reasons students of this system often do quite well in careers at the Bar or in consultancy.
> > Now, you ask what the point is. Have you had the benefit > > of learning under both methods (tutorials vs [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > teaching load, so most faculty are rather reluctant to > supervise one. I understand that. I must admit to not realising until the very end of my degree the strain that my tutors were under. To offer tutorials in a subject, they must not only fully understand the key topics, but must also be completely conversant with all recent literature on the topic to produce reading lists and spot how widely a student has read from their essay, and still be flexible enough to allow the student room to explore the topics in which they are particularly interested (while remaining sufficiently abreast of the syllabus to ensure the student doesn't meander too far on whim alone to be able to pass exams). Of course, your subject would work in a slightly different way, with more problem sets and less essays.
What topics are you fondest of teaching?
> > One of my Sanskrit tutors preferred to have large classes > > - about eight of us at a time, for a two hour (scheduled) [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > get special dispensation to run if it were required for an > existing major. This is definitely one of the key strengths of the tutorial system: the student is entirely in the driver's seat as far as picking what to study. While tutors may offer 'firm guidance', in the end, it is students' interests which dictate what gets studied.
Neeraj Mathur
Phil Carmody - 17 Jan 2007 11:20 GMT > People at Oxford do get third class degrees, Nope. They get Douglases.
Phil
 Signature "Home taping is killing big business profits. We left this side blank so you can help." -- Dead Kennedys, written upon the B-side of tapes of /In God We Trust, Inc./.
phoglund@abo.fi - 11 Jan 2007 14:48 GMT Nigel Greenwood kirjoitti:
> Yesterday morning on the BBC Radio 4 programme Today [sic!], one of the > presenters read out a piece to do with the feeling of satiety. He > stumbled a bit on the word, pronouncing it something like "satiate-y", > but was quickly corrected by his colleague. My spoken English is definitely worse than my written English, but I would pronounce "satiety" instinctively as [s@'tai@ti]. How is "satiate" pronounced, then? (I confess I have no idea whatsoever of how "satiate-y" would be different from [s@'tai@eti].
Ruud Harmsen - 11 Jan 2007 15:20 GMT 11 Jan 2007 06:48:34 -0800: phoglund@abo.fi: in sci.lang:
>Nigel Greenwood kirjoitti: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >My spoken English is definitely worse than my written English, but I >would pronounce "satiety" instinctively as [s@'tai@ti]. I would not, but you are right: http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/satiety What I thought is also possible, though.
>How is "satiate" pronounced, then? http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/satiate
Say-She-Ate.
 Signature Ruud Harmsen - http://rudhar.com
Peter Duncanson - 11 Jan 2007 17:20 GMT >11 Jan 2007 06:48:34 -0800: phoglund@abo.fi: in sci.lang: > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >Say-She-Ate. That is the pronunciation for the verb "satiate". The adjective "satiate" has a schwa in the final syllable.
This variation of pronunciation is similar to that of "associate".
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.english.usage)
Nigel Greenwood - 11 Jan 2007 17:39 GMT phogl...@abo.fi wrote:
> Nigel Greenwood kirjoitti: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > would pronounce "satiety" instinctively as [s@'tai@ti]. How is > "satiate" pronounced, then? The reason why the radio presenter stumbled over the word "satiety" is that for most native speakers "satiate" is a much more familiar word, & it's pronounced with a "sh" sound.
Nigel
-- ScriptMaster language resources (Chinese/Modern & Classical Greek/IPA/Persian/Russian/Turkish): http://www.elgin.free-online.co.uk
António Marques - 11 Jan 2007 17:59 GMT > Nigel Greenwood kirjoitti: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > My spoken English is definitely worse than my written English, but I > would pronounce "satiety" instinctively as [s@'tai@ti]. Whereas I'd make it homophonous with 'society'. I can't bring myself to think of the <t> there as a [t].
 Signature am
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