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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2007Mess of trout
In his "Zen & ... maintenance", Robert Pirsig writes of his hostess announcing that "Some neighbors just came over with a mess of trout for dinner. I'm so pleased". Wondering why she should be pleased, I looked up the word "mess" & found that in the US it can mean "a quantity of food sufficient to make a dish". In Britain the only surviving example of this usage that I can think of is the biblical "mess of pottage". How widespread is this usage in the US these days? Nigel -- ScriptMaster language resources (Chinese/Modern & Classical Greek/IPA/Persian/Russian/Turkish): http://www.elgin.free-online.co.uk >In his "Zen & ... maintenance", Robert Pirsig writes of his hostess >announcing that "Some neighbors just came over with a mess of trout for [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Nigel Limited, I think. You'll hear it in the south, in reference to a mess of greens or a mess of fish, usually. Most other regions, if you hear it at all, it's coming from a Southern transplant. It can be used to refer to either the raw foodstuff ("Go pick me a mess of greens,") or to the finished dish ("We just had a mess of catfish for dinner. Everybody's stuffed.")  SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > On 24 Jan 2007 13:53:06 -0800, "Nigel Greenwood" > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > to the finished dish ("We just had a mess of catfish for dinner. > Everybody's stuffed.") I agree. The southern USA or transplants from the South. I do not hear it from native New Yorkers. OTOH, it is understood, but it is not part of the vocabulary of standard American broadcast English. GFH >> On 24 Jan 2007 13:53:06 -0800, "Nigel Greenwood" >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > hear it from native New Yorkers. OTOH, it is understood, but it is > not part of the vocabulary of standard American broadcast English. Just so this last remark isn't the very last that someone sees on this topic, let me remark that a man from Massachusetts (or maybe Connecticut) expressed himself very clearly as having heard this expression in his neck of the woods. He made no claims to being a transplant from the south. When someone else made a similar claim (that it is associated with the south) another person said he had had a jiujitsu instructor from Wisconsin who used "mess of" to mean "a bunch of". Born and raised in rural SW Wisconsin in the '30s, I heard this expression used fairly often over a period of time. My ancestors arrived fresh off the boats from Germany and Ireland. I won't say that I hear it now, but I live in a city of 200,000+, among people who get their fish and their produce at upscale food markets and butcher shops. The expression "a mess of beans, greens, fish," and other such is not restricted to southern roots. Believe me. And I posted a response to that effect. It could be more frequently heard among the catfish-eating and catching subculture than in urban areas, but in Wisconsin that certainly hasn't died out. As a matter of fact, ice-fishermen are known to come home with a "mess a fish" in wintertime. Believe me. I haven't researched this, so I don't know the area Pirsig is in when his hostess is pleased with the "mess" she receives. > In his "Zen & ... maintenance", Robert Pirsig writes of his hostess > announcing that "Some neighbors just came over with a mess of trout for [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > How widespread is this usage in the US these days? Despite what Ms Bailey said it is widely understood and commonly used everywhere. >> In his "Zen & ... maintenance", Robert Pirsig writes of his hostess >> announcing that "Some neighbors just came over with a mess of trout for [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Despite what Ms Bailey said it is widely understood and commonly used > everywhere. I'm not aware of having heard it before (UK) other than in a "mess of potage". Chris R > >> In his "Zen & ... maintenance", Robert Pirsig writes of his hostess > >> announcing that "Some neighbors just came over with a mess of trout for [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Chris R The question was about the U.S.,.I assumed any reading the thread would understand it in that context. Sorry if you were confused. >In his "Zen & ... maintenance", Robert Pirsig writes of his hostess >announcing that "Some neighbors just came over with a mess of trout for [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >How widespread is this usage in the US these days? Widely used and widely understood in informal usage. "A mess of..." doesn't have to be food. You can have a mess of problems (meaning a large quantity) or a mess of things to do you haven't got around to doing. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL > >In his "Zen & ... maintenance", Robert Pirsig writes of his hostess > >announcing that "Some neighbors just came over with a mess of trout for [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > large quantity) or a mess of things to do you haven't got around to > doing. But if MIM(IoINM), then is mess mass? Phil Signature"Home taping is killing big business profits. We left this side blank so you can help." -- Dead Kennedys, written upon the B-side of tapes of /In God We Trust, Inc./. I recall my jujitsu instructor(from Wisconsin, I believe) telling one of the club officers, "Can you go online and order a mess of jos for the class?"('jo' being a Japanese short staff) She of course asked, "How many qualifies as a mess?" >> In his "Zen & ... maintenance", Robert Pirsig writes of his hostess >> announcing that "Some neighbors just came over with a mess of trout for [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > large quantity) or a mess of things to do you haven't got around to > doing. >I recall my jujitsu instructor(from Wisconsin, I believe) telling one >of the club officers, "Can you go online and order a mess of jos for >the class?"('jo' being a Japanese short staff) > > She of course asked, "How many qualifies as a mess?" I am from Wisconsin and I agree. In AUE, I so explained, though in the experience of others, "mess" is more of a southern usage. > >I recall my jujitsu instructor(from Wisconsin, I believe) telling one > >of the club officers, "Can you go online and order a mess of jos for [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I am from Wisconsin and I agree. In AUE, I so explained, though in the > experience of others, "mess" is more of a southern usage. If it's southern then how come we use it in New England. Last saturday on TCM's cartoon ally they ran an old Daffy Duck WWII propaganda cartoon. At ne point he was surrounded by a gaggle of German fighter planes, Daffy exclaimed " A mess o' Messerschmitts" whereupon he caused their destruction and completed the pun with "A mess o' Messerschmitts". > > >I recall my jujitsu instructor(from Wisconsin, I believe) telling one > > >of the club officers, "Can you go online and order a mess of jos for [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I am from Wisconsin and I agree. In AUE, I so explained, though in the > > experience of others, "mess" is more of a southern usage. > If it's southern then how come we use it in New England. > Last saturday on TCM's cartoon ally they ran an old Daffy Duck WWII > propaganda cartoon. At ne point he was surrounded by a gaggle of German > fighter planes, Daffy exclaimed " A mess o' Messerschmitts" whereupon he > caused their destruction and completed the pun with "A mess o' > Messerschmitts". How do you get from a 60+-year-old cartoon, written in Hollywood with an assonating wordplay, to "we use it [today] in New England"? (And the description is incoherent anyway.) > > > >I recall my jujitsu instructor(from Wisconsin, I believe) telling one > > > >of the club officers, "Can you go online and order a mess of jos for [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > (And the description is incoherent anyway.) It was an example that it is common usage and has been for some time. >> >I recall my jujitsu instructor(from Wisconsin, I believe) telling >> >one [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > caused their destruction and completed the pun with "A mess o' > Messerschmitts". Ray, as I mentioned, "in the experience of others", "mess is more of a southern usage". I have no way of stating that they are in error, since my experience of this usage is local to my state. The "others" refers to a person or persons cited by a poster in AUE. > >> >I recall my jujitsu instructor(from Wisconsin, I believe) telling > >> >one [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > my experience of this usage is local to my state. The "others" refers > to a person or persons cited by a poster in AUE. How can you claim that? It is common up here. Someon saying they have a mess of work, or a mess of anything is common. [sci.lang put out of its misery] [ ... ] > > Ray, as I mentioned, "in the experience of others", "mess is more of a > > southern usage". I have no way of stating that they are in error, since > > my experience of this usage is local to my state. The "others" refers > > to a person or persons cited by a poster in AUE. > How can you claim that? It is common up here. Someon saying they have a > mess of work, or a mess of anything is common. Let me give it a try: When someone is describing his experience of something, he's telling you what he knows from that experience. What he hasn't experienced he doesn't know through experience. If he hasn't learned otherwise by some other method, all he knows is what experience has taught him. You may know, from experience, things that he doesn't know, but that doesn't mean (1) That he knows what you know or (2) That he *should* know what you know, or (3) That his description of his experience is inaccurate. Of course, it's possible to lie about what experience has taught you, but then the issue is not what's objectively true but what you personally know. So if I tell you that in my experience "mess" in the sense under discussion is used only in the southern United States, it does not contradict my experience if you tell me that you've encountered it frequently in Massachusetts. I am not claiming that it never occurs in Massachusetts, but only that I don't know personally of uses outside the southern US. If I tell you that I have no personal knowledge through experience but that others have told me that it's limited to the southern US, I'm again describing what I know and how I learned it. An appropriate answer might be "You've been misinformed. It's common in Massachusetts and other northeastern states." But you have no business telling this person that he is misdescribing what he's been told. Pat was telling you what he had been told by others. He could have been lying about what they told him, but I don't think so. He may have been misinformed, but that's no reason to deny his report of what he was told by others, as long as he makes it clear, as he did, that it was what others had told him. Got it yet? I learned this in Epistemology 101 while in college. If I'm wrong, I've been misinformed. But I don't think I'm wrong. SignatureBob Lieblich Who got an A- in the course > [sci.lang put out of its misery] > [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > Bob Lieblich > Who got an A- in the course Have you contemplated going into politics? [addressing me] > Have you contemplated going into politics? I've thought about it, but I fear I'm insufficiently verbose and patronizing (although I'm working on both). SignatureBob Lieblich Vote for me (but it'll have to be a write-in) >> [sci.lang put out of its misery] >> [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] >> >Have you contemplated going into politics? He's well-suited for law. You've just been lectured on the inadmissibility of hearsay testimony. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL > >> [sci.lang put out of its misery] > >> [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > He's well-suited for law. You've just been lectured on the > inadmissibility of hearsay testimony. What is language but hearsay? Ray O'Hara in <GbqdnZZ98qhO_yTYnZ2dnUVZ_tunnZ2d@comcast.com>: > What is language but hearsay? Language is a box of tools. (Wittgenstein - Linguistic Philosophy 101) SignatureCol Morrison > Ray O'Hara in <GbqdnZZ98qhO_yTYnZ2dnUVZ_tunnZ2d@comcast.com>: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > -- > Col Morrison The most commonly used being a shoe horn On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 17:28:48 -0500, Tony Cooper <tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> wrote in <news:69nfr21l9vv9jmfa42l0sjhi3h06u5drp3@4ax.com> in sci.lang,alt.english.usage: >>In his "Zen & ... maintenance", Robert Pirsig writes of his hostess >>announcing that "Some neighbors just came over with a mess of trout for >>dinner. I'm so pleased". Wondering why she should be pleased, I looked >>up the word "mess" & found that in the US it can mean "a quantity of >>food sufficient to make a dish". In Britain the only surviving example >>of this usage that I can think of is the biblical "mess of pottage". >>How widespread is this usage in the US these days? > Widely used and widely understood in informal usage. "A mess of..." > doesn't have to be food. You can have a mess of problems (meaning a > large quantity) or a mess of things to do you haven't got around to > doing. The OED article, a draft revision dated March 2002, says that this sense -- 'a (usually large) quantity or number of something' -- is regional in both N. America and Britain. 'A take or haul of fish, esp. one sufficient to provide a meal' is said to be chiefly U.S. usage. The more general 'a quantity (of meat, fruit, etc.) sufficient to make a dish' is described as 'U.S. regional'. Brian >> In his "Zen & ... maintenance", Robert Pirsig writes of his hostess >> announcing that "Some neighbors just came over with a mess of trout [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > large quantity) or a mess of things to do you haven't got around to > doing. Since you're gor-hor-hone I got a mess of the blues SignatureJohn Dean Oxford > In his "Zen & ... maintenance", Robert Pirsig writes of his hostess > announcing that "Some neighbors just came over with a mess of trout for [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Nigel It's a Woody Allen bit. http://www.ibras.dk/comedy/allen.htm ``Down South'' ``And they drive me to an empty field, and I gave myself away, 'cause they asked for donations, and everybody there gave cash. When it came to me, I said "I pledge fifty dollars". They knew immediately. They took my hood off and threw a rope around my neck, and they decided to hang me. And suddenly my whole life passed before my eyes. I saw myself as a kid again, in Kansas, going to school, swimming at the swimming hole, and fishing, frying up a mess-o-catfish, going down to the general store, getting a piece of gingham for Emmy-Lou. And I realise it's not my life. They're gonna hang me in two minutes, the wrong life is passing before my eyes.'' Spoken, ``mess-o-catfish'' is said slowly to point out his familiarity with the idiom, foreign to his native New York. SignatureRon Hardin rhhardin@mindspring.com On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk. > > In his "Zen & ... maintenance", Robert Pirsig writes of his hostess > > announcing that "Some neighbors just came over with a mess of trout for [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > Spoken, ``mess-o-catfish'' is said slowly to point out his familiarity with the > idiom, foreign to his native New York. It's the catfish that's the foreign to New York element. If you drive along the Tennessee River you'll encounter an "all you can eat" catfish house every mile. [ ... ] > If you drive along the Tennessee River you'll encounter an "all you can eat" > catfish house every mile. If your car doesn't sink first. SignatureBob Lieblich I know, I know On 25 Jan 2007, Robert Lieblich wrote > [ ... ] > >> If you drive along the Tennessee River you'll encounter an "all >> you can eat" catfish house every mile. > > If your car doesn't sink first. Reminds me of the National Lampoon "VW ad" -- the one where the Beetle was floating on the water, with the strapline "If Teddy Kennedy had been driving a Volkswagen, he'd be President by now". (I saw this many years later, in an article that mentioned that VW sued, and National Lampoon lost because they'd forgotten to airbrush the trade-marked "VW" logo off the car.) SignatureCheers, Harvey Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van > [ ... ] > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Bob Lieblich > I know, I know One would be "on" the river to suffer tht fate. >> [ ... ] >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > One would be "on" the river to suffer tht fate. Don't you drive along a road or walk along a footpath? I do. Chris R >> [ ... ] >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > One would be "on" the river to suffer tht fate. Like the Bridge *on* the River Kwai? SignatureJohn Dean Oxford > > [ ... ] > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > One would be "on" the river to suffer tht fate. Personally I'd rather be alongside in order to avoid the fate. Phil Signature"Home taping is killing big business profits. We left this side blank so you can help." -- Dead Kennedys, written upon the B-side of tapes of /In God We Trust, Inc./. >In his "Zen & ... maintenance", Robert Pirsig writes of his hostess >announcing that "Some neighbors just came over with a mess of trout for >dinner. I'm so pleased". Wondering why she should be pleased, I looked >up the word "mess" & found that in the US it can mean "a quantity of >food sufficient to make a dish". In Britain the only surviving example >of this usage that I can think of is the biblical "mess of pottage". ================================================== There is also the UK military use as in "officers' mess" and "sergeants' mess" i.e. the place where these persons partake of food and drink in social surroundings. ================================================== SignatureFrancis Cameron > food sufficient to make a dish". In Britain the only surviving example > of this usage that I can think of is the biblical "mess of pottage". Ahem. So where do British Army Officers eat then? >> food sufficient to make a dish". In Britain the only surviving example >> of this usage that I can think of is the biblical "mess of pottage". >> > Ahem. So where do British Army Officers eat then? That's a different meaning. The meaning "a dish of food" is marked (arch) in my dictionary (Chambers) - meanings "a quantity" and "a take or haul of fish" are marked (U.S.). Chris R > > food sufficient to make a dish". In Britain the only surviving example > > of this usage that I can think of is the biblical "mess of pottage". > > > Ahem. So where do British Army Officers eat then? A semantical mèsalliance! pjk |
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