Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2004

Richard, the 'from' field in my news reader (Outlook Express) says
"Alan Illeman", yet this message is from you ???????????????

Has anyone else noticed this ?

Then why do all my RC friends tell me so?

The most charitable reading is

True, there is often a wide discrepancy between what members of a group say
is so and what the leaders espouse.

I did not.  I merely said the symbol is widely used in Christianity.

Of course it has no such thing.  frank, as usual,

[..]

Um, MC?  This is AEU.

Tough day, huh?

Thanks, Schultz.

I pointed out the chi-rho  several rounds upthread, also pointing out
that it didn't exactly match frank's assertion.  frank has had ample
chance to accept it as what he meant.  He has instead devoted his
efforts to smoke and mirrors.

Richard R. Hershberger

In other words, you have none, or you would have cited it.

I never claimed to be:  I work for a living.  But at least I don't
make up nonsense then act offended when called on it.

On 27 Dec 2003, david56 wrote

-snip-

-snip-

I don't see how one can possibly say that "atheism has no point of view
and no opinion":  is not the starting point of atheism that "we have
made no external observation that X exists, therefore we conclude that
X does not exist"?

But if one has no observations, one merely has no observations:  
logicalaly, "no observation" does not prove "no existence".

Ask an astronomer if "no observation of life on other planets" proves
that life does not exist on other planets, or merely that "the
observational tools we have do not observe life on other planets, but
such life may exist beyond our powers of observation".

Putting aside the politically-driven contortions of religious
fundamentalists -- another issue, I'm sure we can agree -- what is the
basic difference between holding -- in spite of a lack of proof -- that
something exists, and holding -- because of that lack of proof -- that
something does *not* exist?

Surely a lack of proof using a given set of observational tools (in
this case, scientific method) is not a proof of the negative, but
merely proof that proof has not been found using that set of
observational tools?

What strikes me as the only truly scientific approach is the agnostic
one:  no measurement has been made, therefore -- to the best of our
knowledge -- no measurable phenomenon has been found.

Those who maintain that an unobservable phenomenon exists have more in
common with those who say it does not exist than either have with those
who say "We are unable to prove this one way or another", and leave it
at that.

[..]

Oy! Robin seldom things anything, but he does think, occasionally, and with
much gusto and little result.

However, I first started thinking that 'atheist' and 'unbeliever' were
separate when I belonged to a philosophical newsgroup. Many of the sincere
*atheists* were almost rabid in their belief that the "God-botherers"
(followers of any sort of belief system that depended on the existence of
deities) must be wiped from the face of the earth. "Kill the fundamentalist
believers" etc. I expect the bombing of churches to start momentarily
(insert smiley).

As David put so beautifully, I simply do not recognise any concept of the
universe being organised or created by any sort of being, and therefore the
idea is just not part of my life.

But you are correct that so far, the percentage of atheists that get really
obsessive about it is small. In fact, I suspect that many who declare
themselves as atheists are secret agnostics. There are many anecdotes of
such people praying as they realise that they are dying.

Once, when I was almost at that point, I am glad to say that I did not even
think of praying.

[The first time I came very close to dying (January 6th, 1998, 01.35 am) I
was unconscious after a disastrous major operation. The second time was a
couple of months later, and I was conscious in the ward. I had caught MRSA
(which is now par for the course in British hospitals, for it is endemic
and often fatal for patients who have undergone surgery) and pneumonia in
both lungs (in addition to still having the foot-long gash in my abdomen).
I started slipping away during the late evening, and the hospital phoned my
then girlfriend (who had visited earlier) to come back and expect the
worst. By the time she arrived (so she has told me, for I had slipped into
a dream by then) I was on a ventilator, and the staff did not expect me to
recover. I remember the dream as though it was yesterday, and I shall never
go into detail about it, except to say it was not about floating through
tunnels and seeing angels, which many who have suffered a near-death
experience have reported. My girlfriend (now my wife) said that she just
heard me worrying (she calls it 'moithering', as she's from Yorkshire)
about her and my first wife. Eventually, I obviously came through the
crisis. The hospital staff, who had seen it happen before, put it down to
willpower.)

The Concise Oxford Dictionary but I've no idea which year as a few
of the front pages are missing. It's been with me for quite a while.