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Verbal fillers

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Tim Steele - 27 Mar 2007 14:59 GMT
Help! I've noticed that over time as a family we become addicted to
'fillers' which are words or phrases we use that have no meaning in
context and are simply to allow thinking time. Once pointed out these
become very annoying.

The British Prime Minister has a long held habit of using the phrase
"you know" in the middle of sentences and a recent short interview
contained no fewer than 40 of them.

The one we're struggling with at present is beginning sentences with
"well". We first noticed our 4 year old doing it and then someone
pointed out she'd learnt it from us - and we realised we were the cause!
Now we make a "Bzzt" noise every time someone starts a sentence with
"well" in the hope that we can wean ourselves off it.

During a recent episode of Grey's Anatomy two characters managed four
consecutive sentences beginning with "well" so perhaps that's where we
got it.

Any other recovering wellaholics out there?

Tim
Flying Tortoise - 27 Mar 2007 15:48 GMT
> Help! I've noticed that over time as a family we become addicted to
> 'fillers' which are words or phrases we use that have no meaning in
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> Tim

No, I'm quite well thank-you!
Purl Gurl - 27 Mar 2007 16:31 GMT
(snipped)

> Help! I've noticed that over time as a family we become addicted to
> 'fillers' which are words or phrases we use that have no meaning in
> context and are simply to allow thinking time.

> The British Prime Minister has a long held habit of using the phrase
> "you know" in the middle of sentences....

> The one we're struggling with at present is beginning sentences with
> "well". We first noticed our 4 year old doing it and then someone....

> During a recent episode of Grey's Anatomy two characters managed four
> consecutive sentences beginning with "well" so....

> Any other recovering wellaholics out there?

Well, I am not sure I am a wellaholic. However, I am sure rather
than pay attention to a single word, I pay attention to every
single word I use.

I note you overuse "the" and especially overuse "it" in your writings.
You should add those two words to your list of words to buzz.

Our word "uh" is abused more often than "well" is abused. These are
unconscious acts of language, just as is abuse of words such as "there,"
"that," "the" and "it" are unconscious acts.

Give attention to every single word you utter and you will not
come across as being unconscious.

Purl Gurl
contrex - 27 Mar 2007 16:46 GMT
> > The one we're struggling with at present is beginning sentences with
> > "well". We first noticed our 4 year old doing it and then someone....
>
> Give attention to every single word you utter and you will not
> come across as being unconscious.

Well, I don't usually agree with Purl Gurl, but, well, she has a
point. The bullying of the 4 year old for not speaking "properly"
makes you seem particularly obnoxious. Get over yourself!
Purl Gurl - 27 Mar 2007 17:16 GMT
>>> The one we're struggling with at present is beginning sentences with
>>> "well". We first noticed our 4 year old doing it and then someone....

>> Give attention to every single word you utter and you will not
>> come across as being unconscious.

> Well, I don't usually agree with Purl Gurl, but, well, she has a
> point. The bullying of the 4 year old for not speaking "properly"
> makes you seem particularly obnoxious. Get over yourself!

Do not cling to my coattails of greatness. Do not associate
your words with mine. I adamantly disagree with your thoughts.

Original context for readers,

    The one we're struggling with at present is beginning sentences
    with "well". We first noticed our 4 year old doing it and then
    someone pointed out she'd learnt it from us - and we realised we
    were the cause! Now we make a "Bzzt" noise every time someone starts
    a sentence with "well" in the hope that we can wean ourselves off it.

Tim and his girl's mother are NOT bullying their daughter. Both are
applying their "corrective" measures to all in their family, equally.
Tim and his wife display characteristics of excellent parents; they
are actively involved in their girl's education which is commendable
and this is an activity rarely displayed by parents.

I admire Tim and his wife for their efforts to provide their girl
with a good upbringing.

Purl Gurl
contrex - 27 Mar 2007 17:37 GMT
> I admire Tim and his wife for their efforts to provide their girl
> with a good upbringing.

Well, that makes me quite sure I was right! God help the child of an
anal overcontrolling rules enthusiast. (I was one).
Rudy Canoza - 27 Mar 2007 17:48 GMT
>>> The one we're struggling with at present is beginning sentences with
>>> "well". We first noticed our 4 year old doing it and then someone....
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> point. The bullying of the 4 year old for not speaking "properly"
> makes you seem particularly obnoxious. Get over yourself!

What's "bullying" about trying to correct a sloppy
speech habit?  Did you fail to note the parents are
also trying to break themselves of it, and acknowledged
that their child picked it up from them?
John Flynn - 27 Mar 2007 18:34 GMT
> What's "bullying" about trying to correct a sloppy speech habit?

What's "sloppy speech habit"-ish about it?  You have claimed that it
is, but that is merely your opinion about the matter.  The practice
may not, in fact, be a "sloppy speech habit" at all.  Thinking it is
doesn't make it so.  The fact that it occurs universally in human
language (non-fluency features of this sort, not just specifically
"Well") must indicate something about it, something that should make
you pause, reserve prejudiced condemnation for a second or two, and
think to yourself "Maybe it's serving some actual function that I am
unaware of."

And, yes, it does seem to be serving some function other than that
which is contained only in the words you speak.  Language is not
just a code or a mathematical equation that needs to be solved; it's
a social action, a set of behaviours between people.

"Well" can act as a pause for the person to collect their thoughts and
have time to think.  This might not seem like a lot of time to think,
but in the perspective of how much time you normally have to process
and produce a spoken sentence, it's almost an eternity.

A social use of "well" (and "like") is as a politeness strategy, a way
of distancing one thing from another (subject from predicate; the
purpose for saying the sentence [often referred to as the "illoctionary
act/foce" of the sentence] from the person saying it; etc).  Why do you
think, in English, the first sentence below is considered polite and
the second one rude?
1. Excuse me, would you be so kind as to close the window?
2. Shut the window.
It's because it employs, among other things, the "distancing"
politeness strategy.  The request comes at the end of a long sequence
of words, thus softening it and as a result making it sound more polite.
The same sometimes applies for those "sloppy speech habits" you mention.

Just today, I found myself using such a strategy to soften something
I had to say and reading this thread now made me realize what I had
done.
I was on the telephone to someone who was asking me to do something
(the details don't matter).  It was something that I was unable to do
right then and the person making the request was someone I respected.
To bluntly say "No, I can't do that" would have been rude, unfriendly,
unsociable.  What I did say was "Well, no, because that's... like...
impossible right now."  It softened the refusal.  It wasn't a "sloppy
speech habit" at all; it was a distancing measure to add an extra
*social* dimension to what I had said on top of the actual words,
syntax, and semantics of what I had said.

There is more to language than just words.  Pinned to a piece of paper,
sure, the words might seem to be all that exists, but in reality --
in actual communication between living people -- language is more like
a well-coordinated dance with many steps, patterns, and rhythms that
keep it all together.  Break step and watch the way that you will rub
people the wrong way.

Signature

johnF
"In fact, the belief that neurophysiology is even relevant to the
functioning of the mind is just a hypothesis."
-- _Language and Thought_, Noam Chomsky (1993)

John Flynn - 27 Mar 2007 18:50 GMT
> [often referred to as the "illoctionary act/foce" of the sentence]

The perlocutionary force of *that* particular sentence being to
guide the reader to scratch their heads in bewilderment about what
language I was typing in!

Ignoring the typos, I meant to write:
> [often referred to as the "illocutionary act/force" of the sentence]

Signature

johnF
"We do not have to believe this stuff, just because it was said centuries
or millennia ago by immensely famous men."
-- _Educating Eve_, Geoffrey Sampson

Rudy Canoza - 28 Mar 2007 15:34 GMT
>> What's "bullying" about trying to correct a sloppy speech habit?
>
> What's "sloppy speech habit"-ish about it?

Oh, yeah yeah yeah, the relativism starts flooding
right out of the gate...

Blow it out your coal chute, jonnie.  It's sloppy
speech.  It is, as the OP noted, a mere filler.  It
adds nothing, and the speech clearly sounds better
without it.
Mike Lyle - 27 Mar 2007 18:47 GMT
[...]
>> The bullying of the 4 year old for not speaking "properly"
>> makes you seem particularly obnoxious. Get over yourself!
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> also trying to break themselves of it, and acknowledged
> that their child picked it up from them?

There's no such thing as a four-year-old with a sloppy speech habit.
That's why it could seem like bullying -- I wouldn't dream of making
that accusation without knowing more about the family, but I'd certainly
go easy on the child. These parents are doing the right thing in
correcting their own speech, if their habits really are so bad (which
they probably _aren't_): the child will imitate them and those around.
And that includes the "Bzzt!" too, which is food for thought.

Signature

Mike.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

contrex - 27 Mar 2007 20:22 GMT
On 27 Mar, 18:47, "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

> There's no such thing as a four-year-old with a sloppy speech habit.

My mother: Don't say "ain't".
Me (aged 4): Why not?
Mother: Because it ain't nice.
Rudy Canoza - 28 Mar 2007 15:35 GMT
> [...]
>>> The bullying of the 4 year old for not speaking "properly"
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> There's no such thing as a four-year-old with a sloppy speech habit.

This group is a magnet for prickly buttinskys with
terminal cases of disgusting relativism.
Cece - 28 Mar 2007 22:39 GMT
> >>> The one we're struggling with at present is beginning sentences with
> >>> "well". We first noticed our 4 year old doing it and then someone....
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> also trying to break themselves of it, and acknowledged
> that their child picked it up from them?

Meaningless fillers drive me wild too.  Many years ago (30?), I
watched a daytime interview show with four actors as guests, two from
the United States and two originally from Canada.  I noticed that the
two U.S. actors kept interrupting themselves with "uh" while they
ransacked their brains for the next word.  Neither of the Canadians
did that; if the next word needed a moment to come to the tongue, they
just stopped making noise for that moment.  It reminded me of the
story my uncle told me, when I was very small, about the Toastmasters
Club cullecting a nickel every time a member said, "Uh."

Cece
Cece - 28 Mar 2007 22:40 GMT
> >>> The one we're struggling with at present is beginning sentences with
> >>> "well". We first noticed our 4 year old doing it and then someone....
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> also trying to break themselves of it, and acknowledged
> that their child picked it up from them?

Meaningless fillers drive me wild too.  Many years ago (30?), I
watched a daytime interview show with four actors as guests, two from
the United States and two originally from Canada.  I noticed that the
two U.S. actors kept interrupting themselves with "uh" while they
ransacked their brains for the next word.  Neither of the Canadians
did that; if the next word needed a moment to come to the tongue, they
just stopped making noise for that moment.  It reminded me of the
story my uncle told me, when I was very small, about the Toastmasters
Club cullecting a nickel every time a member said, "Uh."

Cece
Flying Tortoise - 28 Mar 2007 23:58 GMT
> > >>> The one we're struggling with at present is beginning sentences with
> > >>> "well". We first noticed our 4 year old doing it and then someone....
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

Yeah ... and when people repeat themselves cos they can't think of any
new to say and .....
Rudy Canoza - 27 Mar 2007 17:45 GMT
> Help! I've noticed that over time as a family we become addicted to
> 'fillers' which are words or phrases we use that have no meaning in
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Any other recovering wellaholics out there?

I heard someone interviewed on an NPR program the other
day who probably started *every* response in the
interview with "Well, ..."  It was simultaneously
annoying and amusing.

I sometimes do it intentionally, with a an exaggerated
emphasis on "well" and an exaggerated pause following
it.  In fact, with a small number of people I know
well, I'll even begin a reply, "Well [pause], comma
[pause], ...", the word "comma" actually being spoken.
 Some laugh, some just shake their heads in dismay.

I am far more irritated by fillers like "like".  My
six-year-old son already picked that up over a year
ago, and I don't know how to break him of the habit.
Sometimes it's a filler and sometimes it's a substitute
for "said", e.g. "And I'm like, 'no way'."  Sometimes
it's a bit of both.  It's always grating.

I have a colleague, someone I don't know well, who I
think has some kind of speech impediment, probably
stuttering.  I think a speech therapist actually taught
him to vocalize some verbal fillers as a means of not
getting completely blocked.  The first time I heard him
on a conference call, I had to put the phone on mute so
no one would hear me laughing.  The guy said something
along the lines of "And so we need to er-um-uh,
er-um-uh, boot the server..."
Joanne Marinelli - 27 Mar 2007 18:21 GMT
>> Help! I've noticed that over time as a family we become addicted to
>> 'fillers' which are words or phrases we use that have no meaning in
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
> The guy said something along the lines of "And so we need to er-um-uh,
> er-um-uh, boot the server..."

It makes my day to see that ignorant jackasses like you make activist
radicalism in the disability community seem legitimate. Who the f.ck are you
to make a joke out of impairments which cause discomfort and embarrassment
to others?
Tony Cooper - 28 Mar 2007 01:22 GMT
>>> Help! I've noticed that over time as a family we become addicted to
>>> 'fillers' which are words or phrases we use that have no meaning in
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
>to make a joke out of impairments which cause discomfort and embarrassment
>to others?

Where did he make a joke of a disability?  He described an incident he
was party to.  Yes, he laughed during the incident, but he concealed
that laughter from the stutterer.  We can't help what we laugh at.  

My father, who stammered so badly that he was 4-F, never found humor
in his stammering, but understood that other people couldn't control
their reactions.  He called many people ignorant jackasses, but never
for this reason.

Signature

Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL

Purl Gurl - 28 Mar 2007 03:01 GMT
>> Rudy Canoza wrote:

(snipped)

>>>> Help! I've noticed that over time as a family we become addicted to
>>>> 'fillers' which are words or phrases we use that have no meaning in
>>>> context and are simply to allow thinking time. Once pointed out these
>>>> become very annoying.

>>> I have a colleague, someone I don't know well, who I think has some kind
>>> of speech impediment, probably stuttering.  I think a speech therapist
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>>> The guy said something along the lines of "And so we need to er-um-uh,
>>> er-um-uh, boot the server..."

>> It makes my day to see that ignorant jackasses like you make activist
>> radicalism in the disability community seem legitimate. Who the f.ck are you
>> to make a joke out of impairments which cause discomfort and embarrassment
>> to others?

> Where did he make a joke of a disability?  He described an incident he
> was party to.  Yes, he laughed during the incident, but he concealed
> that laughter from the stutterer.  We can't help what we laugh at.  

> My father, who stammered so badly that he was 4-F, never found humor
> in his stammering, but understood that other people couldn't control
> their reactions.  He called many people ignorant jackasses, but never
> for this reason.

Our family enjoyed a significant pleasure of meeting Mel Tillis during
a small private party at the home of nearby friends.

During this party, Mel constantly joked about his stutter, and his stutter
is very noticeable during speech. He told joke after joke about people
who stutter and his own stuttering. When he sings, as expected, flawless.

Mel displays a healthy attitude. He deals with what life dealt him
in a positive and upbeat manner. He is a true inspiration.

As you know, I frequently poke fun at my having a big butt and my
butt is big. Part of my self-confidence and self-pride is derived
from Mel Tillis. Mel is as brave as Stephen Hawking and Mel does
contribute as much to all of us, as Hawking.

http://nefsky.com/tillis.htm

Purl Gurl
Rudy Canoza - 28 Mar 2007 15:32 GMT
>>> Help! I've noticed that over time as a family we become addicted to
>>> 'fillers' which are words or phrases we use that have no meaning in
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
> to make a joke out of impairments which cause discomfort and embarrassment
> to others?

Stick your phony "compassion" up your mackerel-crotch
flue, joannie.  I *didn't* laugh at the guy, but when I
first heard it, it was jarring and it struck me as
funny.  It wasn't until later that it occurred to me it
was a technique for controlling the impediment.

f.ck off, you sanctimonious, self-congratulatory skanky
cow.
Joanne Marinelli - 28 Mar 2007 18:03 GMT
>>>> Help! I've noticed that over time as a family we become addicted to
>>>> 'fillers' which are words or phrases we use that have no meaning in
[quoted text clipped - 51 lines]
>
> f.ck off, you sanctimonious, self-congratulatory skanky cow.

Go ahead. Piss me off just enough.
Rudy Canoza - 28 Mar 2007 22:29 GMT
>>>>> Help! I've noticed that over time as a family we become addicted to
>>>>> 'fillers' which are words or phrases we use that have no meaning in
[quoted text clipped - 51 lines]
>
> Go ahead. Piss me off just enough.

Go pound sand up your oh-so-PC a.s, joannie.
Flying Tortoise - 28 Mar 2007 23:57 GMT
> >>>>> Help! I've noticed that over time as a family we become addicted to
> >>>>> 'fillers' which are words or phrases we use that have no meaning in
[quoted text clipped - 55 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

Ah, I see. So *this* is how you want your son to speak!
Flying Tortoise - 27 Mar 2007 23:02 GMT
> > Help! I've noticed that over time as a family we become addicted to
> > 'fillers' which are words or phrases we use that have no meaning in
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> for "said", e.g. "And I'm like, 'no way'."  Sometimes
> it's a bit of both.  It's always grating.

Ah, yes. It's so irritating when one's six-year old child pours his
heart and soul into communicating with one but just won't learn how
one does it proper. Sheeeesh!
joetaxpayer - 28 Mar 2007 01:48 GMT
>>I am far more irritated by fillers like "like".  My
>>six-year-old son already picked that up over a year
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> heart and soul into communicating with one but just won't learn how
> one does it proper. Sheeeesh!

It is actually possible to love one's child, and to spend endless hours
being an excellent parent, yet still find the repetition of 'like' to be
annoying. There are times there are so many 'likes' it's tough to follow
the rest of what's being said. I imagine Tim wants the best for his son,
and would like to break this 'like' habit.
JOE
Rudy Canoza - 28 Mar 2007 15:37 GMT
>>> Help! I've noticed that over time as a family we become addicted to
>>> 'fillers' which are words or phrases we use that have no meaning in
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> heart and soul into communicating with one but just won't learn how
> one does it proper.

Using vapid verbal fillers is evidence he *isn't*
pouring his heart and soul, and certainly not his
brain, into the communication.
Flying Tortoise - 28 Mar 2007 19:48 GMT
> >>> Help! I've noticed that over time as a family we become addicted to
> >>> 'fillers' which are words or phrases we use that have no meaning in
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
> pouring his heart and soul, and certainly not his
> brain, into the communication.

If he was sixteen I might agree with you. Ten years younger than that
and you lose my sympathy entirely.
bayskater - 30 Mar 2007 04:41 GMT
>> >>> Help! I've noticed that over time as a family we become addicted to
>> >>> 'fillers' which are words or phrases we use that have no meaning in
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
> If he was sixteen I might agree with you. Ten years younger than that
> and you lose my sympathy entirely.

Amen, FT!
Rudy Canoza - 30 Mar 2007 07:00 GMT
>>>>> Help! I've noticed that over time as a family we become addicted to
>>>>> 'fillers' which are words or phrases we use that have no meaning in
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>
> If he was

were

> sixteen I might agree with you. Ten years younger than that
> and you lose my sympathy entirely.

Yeah, right:  let him solidify the wretched speech
habit for ten years, THEN take corrective measures.

You fuckwit.
Mike Lyle - 30 Mar 2007 12:29 GMT
[...]
>> If he was
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> You fuckwit.

You have a point there: we don't want children to grow up using
inappropriate language, after all.

Signature

Mike.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Rudy Canoza - 30 Mar 2007 16:20 GMT
> [...]
>>> If he was
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> You have a point there: we don't want children to grow up using
> inappropriate language, after all.

Exactly right.  My son can wait to use "fuckwit" until
he's out of my house.
contrex - 30 Mar 2007 13:49 GMT
> You fuckwit.

Welcome to my killfile.
Rudy Canoza - 30 Mar 2007 16:21 GMT
>> You fuckwit.
>
> Welcome to my killfile.

Suit yourself, fuckwit.

Why do arrogant fuckwits always feel the need to
announce their killfiling?  No one cares.
bayskater - 30 Mar 2007 22:46 GMT
>>>>>> Help! I've noticed that over time as a family we become addicted to
>>>>>> 'fillers' which are words or phrases we use that have no meaning in
[quoted text clipped - 48 lines]
>
> You fuckwit.

May I ask what "corrective measures" you have  been using on your son since
he was 5 years old?
Rudy Canoza - 31 Mar 2007 07:41 GMT
>>>>>>> Help! I've noticed that over time as a family we become addicted to
>>>>>>> 'fillers' which are words or phrases we use that have no meaning in
[quoted text clipped - 48 lines]
> May I ask what "corrective measures" you have  been using on your son since
> he was 5 years old?

When he says "like" inappropriately, I say "not
'like'", and coach him in rephrasing his sentence.
bayskater - 31 Mar 2007 17:16 GMT
>>>>>>>> Help! I've noticed that over time as a family we become addicted to
>>>>>>>> 'fillers' which are words or phrases we use that have no meaning in
[quoted text clipped - 56 lines]
> When he says "like" inappropriately, I say "not 'like'", and coach him in
> rephrasing his sentence.

If he says "fuckwit" inappropriately, I suggest that you say "not fuckwit"
and coach him in rephrasing his sentence. :-#
 
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