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Discussion Groups / English Usage / May 2007Ending a question with a period?
I just reread The Rebel Angels, by Robertson Davies, and was struck by the following sentence: "Where, I wondered, had Arthur picked up such a friend, who was as near as our modern age allows to what used to be called a matinee idol." (For anyone who wants to examine the original, this is the last sentence of the first paragraph of the second section of the last chapter.) This awoke a long slumbering puzzle for me: are there circumstances where a long, complex question like this one can properly be ended with a period? I have seen that usage on many occasions, but I don't see how it can be correct. On the other hand, ending such a sentence with a question mark seems awkward. I applied the rule of thumb for sorting out I/me and he/him: reduce the sentence to its essentials and see whether it looks right. Here the essential sentence appears to be "Where had Arthur picked up such a friend?" In that form it must surely end with a question mark. I could change the question to a statement by replacing "Where, I wondered" with "I wondered where," but I don't see how that construction could be found in the original. In this case the author was not only an accomplished author, but also a journalist, professor, Shakespearean actor, and all-around man of letters, with a degree in literature from Oxford. I don't see how he could make a mistake like this, if it is a mistake; nor do I see how it could be otherwise. > I just reread The Rebel Angels, by Robertson Davies, and was struck by > the following sentence: [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > could make a mistake like this, if it is a mistake; nor do I see how > it could be otherwise. Perhaps it's an unintentional mistake, and nothing more. Mal > In this case the author was not only an accomplished author, but also > a journalist, professor, Shakespearean actor, and all-around man of > letters, with a degree in literature from Oxford. And therefore able to do just what he likes and call it a literary device! >I just reread The Rebel Angels, by Robertson Davies, and was struck by > the following sentence: [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > could make a mistake like this, if it is a mistake; nor do I see how > it could be otherwise. I do that all the time; hitting the full-point key is second nature, at the end of a sentence -- that's why you have proofreaders. Maybe the proofreaders in question should have worked a little harder. >>I just reread The Rebel Angels, by Robertson Davies, and was struck by >> the following sentence: [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > the end of a sentence -- that's why you have proofreaders. Maybe the > proofreaders in question should have worked a little harder. The emphasis should be on the second clause, not the first. With no inflection, the interrogative form is embedded in the imperative statement, so there is no mistake. Joanne >>>I just reread The Rebel Angels, by Robertson Davies, and was struck by >>> the following sentence: [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > inflection, the interrogative form is embedded in the imperative > statement, so there is no mistake. Dear God in Heaven. >>>>I just reread The Rebel Angels, by Robertson Davies, and was struck by >>>> the following sentence: [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > Dear God in Heaven. I draw the line at being worshipped. >> Dear God in Heaven. > I draw the line at being worshipped. Yet more proof that you can't read perfectly clear and understandable English. >The emphasis should be on the second clause, not the first. With no >inflection, the interrogative form is embedded in the imperative statement, >so there is no mistake. I hope you can explain that in more elementary terms. My days of diagramming sentences are long past, and I didn't follow what you said. Approaching the sentence intuitively, it seems to me that two components are embedded in it. One is interrogative: "Where... had Arthur picked up such a friend...?" The other is declarative: "I wondered..." (I don't see an imperative at all.) It seems to me that the interrogative component must be the primary one. It both begins and ends the sentence; it also conveys most of the sentence's meaning. For lack of a more formal understanding, that makes me think that the sentence must be a question. I found one discussion of English grammar which contained a very similar example, something like this: "He left, he said, because you did not show up." It explained that "he said" is a "quoting phrase" which modifies another part of the sentence. In Davies's sentence, "I wondered" is not a quoting phrase, but it seems structurally very similar, and I would think that it must assume a similar role. If "I wondered" is a modifying phrase, then the interrogative part must contain the root. I thought I might clarify this matter by submitting the text to a web site that diagrams English sentences, but I did not find that helpful. I tried a couple of such sites, but their output did not look at all familiar to me, and I couldn't figure out how to interpret it. Here's the one that seemed most useful, if anyone else wants to try: http://www.link.cs.cmu.edu/link/submit-sentence-4.html (The parser accepts a limited number of characters, and I had to simplify the sentence to make it fit.) >>The emphasis should be on the second clause, not the first. With no >>inflection, the interrogative form is embedded in the imperative [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > diagramming sentences are long past, and I didn't follow what you > said. <snipped> I don't read it as a question. The narrative voice is making a statement. Wondering where a friend came from and asking where a friend came from are two different things. I use this technique in some of my stories. It is a way of keeping things low key, much the same way an actor underplays a role. Joanne >>>The emphasis should be on the second clause, not the first. With no >>>inflection, the interrogative form is embedded in the imperative [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > way of keeping things low key, much the same way an actor underplays a > role. Good grief! Can we go back to the original posting? -- "Where, I wondered, had Arthur picked up such a friend, who was as near as our modern age allows to what used to be called a matinee idol." That is a /QUESTION/! There is no possible way to read it otherwise. The latter part of the sentence is no more than an adjective of "friend"; it has no importance. >>>> The emphasis should be on the second clause, not the first. With no >>>> inflection, the interrogative form is embedded in the imperative [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > That is a /QUESTION/! No it isn't. It is the narrator stating that he had been wondering. > There is no possible way to read it otherwise. Sure there is. It is a poetic re-ordering of "I wondered where Arthur had picked up such a friend …' " > The latter part of the sentence is no more than an adjective of > "friend"; it has > no importance. Indeed, but that is not in question.  SignatureClark S. Cox III clarkcox3@gmail.com >>>>> The emphasis should be on the second clause, not the first. With no >>>>> inflection, the interrogative form is embedded in the imperative [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > Sure there is. It is a poetic re-ordering of "I wondered where Arthur had > picked up such a friend .' " Oh, absolutely. You are so right that it's impossible for me to even fall to my knees. Do you know anything at all about English grammar? -- "Where, I wondered, had Arthur picked up such a friend" is phrased as a question. It is totally irrelevant that: -- "I wondered where Arthur had picked up such a friend" is not a questions, just as it is that: -- "Bananas are yellow" is not a question. You do not examine or parse a sentence according to what it could be if it were worded differently (or if that divergent wording included the word "banana"); you examine and parse sentences according to the words they actually contain, and the word order of the words therein. -- "Where, I wondered, had Arthur picked up such a friend, who was as near as our modern age allows to what used to be called a matinee idol." Is worded as a /QUESTION/. It should terminate with an interrogative point. End of story. > >>>The emphasis should be on the second clause, not the first. With no > >>>inflection, the interrogative form is embedded in the imperative [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > That is a /QUESTION/! So what is the question? Manifestly it's not "Did I wonder .... ?" There is a question involved but the sentence is a statement about that question, not the question itself. If you were an old-fashioned stickler, you could get a question mark in by punctuating ... "Where," I wondered, "had Arthur ...... ?" but that only serves to prove that the question is not the sentence and the sentence is not a question. The question "Where had Arthur ....?" functions here only as a noun clause 'X' which is the object of 'wondered'. The sentence is effectively, "I wondered X". There is no question that that is not a question! <Nothing worth responding to.> > <Nothing worth responding to.> By which you mean I'm right and even you can't make up a counter argument out of thin air this time. Well, it's nice to get it acknowledged at last! >> <Nothing worth responding to.> > > By which you mean I'm right and even you can't make up a counter > argument out of thin air this time. Well, it's nice to get it > acknowledged at last! No, I think you'll find that I am very precise with my words, and that I always (typographical errors notwithstanding) write precisely what I mean to say. You wrote nothing worth responding to. SignatureThink you can write anything? http://mwallace.nl/ > > Can we go back to the original posting? > > -- "Where, I wondered, had Arthur picked up such a friend, who was as near [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > object of 'wondered'. The sentence is effectively, "I wondered X". > There is no question that that is not a question! Since "I wondered" is bracketed by commas (or perhaps that's just commaed), I take it to be parenthetical. As such, it should be able to be removed without affecting the meaning of the sentence. That leaves us with "Where had Arthur picked up such a friend, who was as near as our modern age allows to what used to be called a matinee idol", which is clearly a question. Bill ---------------------------------------------------------------- Reverse parts of the user name for my e-address > On 26 May 2007 18:42:50 -0700, Flying Tortoise > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Bill How can it be parenthetical? It's the main clause! Subject: I, verb: wondered, object: what I wondered. Would you consider the 'he said' parnethetical in "John was", he said, "mad to even attempt it." >> <purple....@googlemail.com> wrote: >> > > Can we go back to the original posting? [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > "John was", he said, "mad to even attempt it." Lordy, lordy. Do us a favour: visit a library. > On 26 May 2007 18:42:50 -0700, Flying Tortoise > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > near as our modern age allows to what used to be called a matinee > idol", which is clearly a question. But the question doesn't stand alone. It is not a question that we are being asked. (If it was the only suitable reply would be, "How the *!$ £ should I know?") The narrative intention is to tell us that the author asked himself this question. That is a statement. It is the exact equivalent of "I wondered about where Arthur might have ...." to which I presume nobody would consider adding a question mark? > I just reread The Rebel Angels, by Robertson Davies, and was struck by > the following sentence: > > "Where, I wondered, had Arthur picked up such a friend, who was as > near as our modern age allows to what used to be called a matinee > idol." This doesn't seem to be a question to me. It seems to be roughly equivalent, in terms of meaning, to: "I wondered where Arthur had picked up such a friend, who was as near as our modern age allows to what used to be called a matinee idol". In which case, there is no mistake. SignatureClark S. Cox III clarkcox3@gmail.com >> I just reread The Rebel Angels, by Robertson Davies, and was struck by >> the following sentence: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >In which case, there is no mistake. I concur. It's a statement concerning "my" thoughs, not a question concerning Arthur's hang-outs. SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >>> I just reread The Rebel Angels, by Robertson Davies, and was struck by >>> the following sentence: [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I concur. It's a statement concerning "my" thoughs, not a question > concerning Arthur's hang-outs. No. -- "I wondered where ~~" would be a non-interrogative declaration, but that is not how it is worded. It is worded as a question. > I just reread The Rebel Angels, by Robertson Davies, and was struck by > the following sentence: [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > wondered" with "I wondered where," but I don't see how that > construction could be found in the original. Why not? Take, eg, "I ask you how that construction can be found." With a poetic inversion, that can become "How, I ask you, can that construction be found?" And it clearly requires the question mark in the second version and doesn't require it in the first, showing that a reordered sentence may require different punctuation. Whereas with "wonder" it is not at all unusual to find unnecessary question marks. I recollect some discussion here in the past about the fact that people frequently write. "I wonder why?" when "I wonder why." is what is intended. So I think the answer to your question is that your rephrasing as "I wondered where ..." is acceptable and doesn't require the question mark. That doesn't, however, prove the case one way or the other for the original. I'd say the original *does* require the question mark and this is an error. Like when Davies said orangutans had tails. > In this case the author was not only an accomplished author, but also > a journalist, professor, Shakespearean actor, and all-around man of > letters, with a degree in literature from Oxford. I don't see how he > could make a mistake like this, if it is a mistake; nor do I see how > it could be otherwise. Don't be seduced by the idea that you can get a degree from Oxford only by being perfect and always correct. If that were the case there'd be nothing but Firsts. Not to say that the mistake, if mistake it be, was his. Printers and proof-readers don't always get it right either. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford > I just reread The Rebel Angels, by Robertson Davies, and was struck by > the following sentence: > > "Where, I wondered, had Arthur picked up such a friend, who was as > near as our modern age allows to what used to be called a matinee > idol." <snip> > I could change the question to a statement by replacing "Where, I > wondered" with "I wondered where," but I don't see how that > construction could be found in the original. I don't think it's that hard to find, if you also undo the inversion of "Arthur had". The sentence the form of a direct quotation: "'Where', I wondered, 'had Arthur picked up ... matinee idol?'" -- but without any of the usual punctuation. I suppose it could be considered a case of 'changing horses in midstream'; OTOH one might take "had Arthur" to be a rhetorical or poetic inversion rather than an interrogative. SignatureOdysseus >I don't think it's that hard to find, if you also undo the inversion of >"Arthur had... a rhetorical or poetic inversion rather than an >interrogative. I can't agree with that. If you make that change in word order you end up with no sentence at all. In any case, I don't see the justification for changing the order of the words to reach a desired result. If you can cite a rule that makes two constructions grammatically equivalent, yes. Apart from that, all you have is two permutations of a set of words which both happen to be grammatically correct. Two such sentences need not even have similar meanings. For example, "Didn't you cover the break?" is entirely different from "You didn't break the cover." I attended a book sale yesterday and picked up a college textbook for a course in English grammar. When I can find time, I will dig in and see what I can learn about this. |
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