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Why isn't "hell" capitalized?

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B. Phillips - 27 Dec 2003 22:27 GMT
By one definition it's a place (if you are of that particular religious
bent.)  A noun.  And so should be capitalized.

The new college edition of The American Heritage Dictionary says:  "Capital
H.  Mortal belief; sin or error," whereas Webster's Third New International
Dictionary (unabridged) says the same thing...but doesn't specify the
capital "H".

Thoughts?

Brian
Raymond S. Wise - 27 Dec 2003 23:37 GMT
> By one definition it's a place (if you are of that particular religious
> bent.)  A noun.  And so should be capitalized.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Brian

The "moon," "heaven," and the "earth," in the sense both of the spiritual
realm existing between heaven and hell and in the sense of the planet, are
also often left uncapitalized. In the past, "Heaven" tended to capitalized
more often than "earth" and "hell," presumably because of the association
with God. I think, however, that the capitalized version of "Earth,"
referring to the planet, is becoming more and more common. Scientists tend
to capitalize it following the pattern used when writing the names of the
other planets, and non-scientists writing about the environment and
biological matters tend to follow this usage.

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Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA

E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com

Martin Willett - 28 Dec 2003 10:21 GMT
>> By one definition it's a place (if you are of that particular
>> religious bent.)  A noun.  And so should be capitalized.
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> non-scientists writing about the environment and biological matters
> tend to follow this usage.

Yes, Earth is our planet. The Moon should get a capital, but a moon
should not. Earth as a synonym of soil does not get a capital.
Incidentally other planets are covered in regolith, not earth
(obviously inappropriate) and not either soil or dirt because they
have inappropriate connotations.

I tend to use the capital letter for Hell as the mythical place, but
in the wider sense of a bad place or bad experience or in swearing the
capital letter does not seem appropriate.

e.g.

Bloody hell mate, it's hellish hot in here.

I damn you to Hell!

We're on the road to Hell.

Well, for what it's worth, that's my idea of hell.

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Martin Willett

http://mwillett.org/

meirman - 28 Dec 2003 21:34 GMT
In alt.english.usage on Sun, 28 Dec 2003 10:21:36 -0000 "Martin
Willett" <mwillett_yuletide_only@ntlworld.com> posted:

>> The "moon," "heaven," and the "earth," in the sense both of the
>> spiritual realm existing between heaven and hell and in the sense of
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>Yes, Earth is our planet. The Moon should get a capital, but a moon

If you think so.  How about Armstrongia, or Brazilia?

>should not. Earth as a synonym of soil does not get a capital.
>Incidentally other planets are covered in regolith, not earth
>(obviously inappropriate) and not either soil or dirt because they
>have inappropriate connotations.

Interesting. Our air, climate etc. probably makes the substances
different anyhow.  Are there regolith worms?

>I tend to use the capital letter for Hell as the mythical place, but
>in the wider sense of a bad place or bad experience or in swearing the
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>Well, for what it's worth, that's my idea of hell.

s/ meirman    If you are emailing me please  
say if you are posting the same response.

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Paul Rooney - 28 Dec 2003 23:08 GMT
>I tend to use the capital letter for Hell as the mythical place, but
>in the wider sense of a bad place or bad experience or in swearing the
>capital letter does not seem appropriate.

I'm sure it should be capitalised, along with 'the devil', but I
resist because it seems as though I'd be giving some respect where
none is due.

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Ayaz Ahmed Khan - 29 Dec 2003 12:02 GMT
"Dr Robin Bignall" typed:

[I'm sorry if this lands in another thread, because I myself found
the reply under Raymond's name in the wrong thread. I have, of
course, edited the attributes.]

> On 27 Dec 2003 15:46:05 GMT, Ayaz Ahmed Khan
> <resilient@myrealbox.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> spoiling children, and thinking that my little angel can do no
> wrong, seems to be the modern pastime.

I don't know why, but I get the feeling that his mother might be
stricter than either you or I think she is. She simply doesn't know
of what her son does in his spare time, or else who-knows-what might
happen. Much of the daring teenagers I have come across are those
that have very strict parents.

>>It's fun, and it's not
>>every day you get a chance like that to grin and grin and grin to
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> people regularly committing crime is about equivalent to 1% of the
> population.


Police statistics aren't reliable. Statistics, in fact, I think, is
an unreliable word.

Maybe, just maybe, if these yobs get busted, and spend a night or two
in jail, they might change. If so, you could do much to make a
difference, only if you choose to.

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Ayaz Ahmed Khan

Yours Forever in,
Cyberspace.

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Dr Robin Bignall - 30 Dec 2003 01:45 GMT
>"Dr Robin Bignall" typed:
>
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>happen. Much of the daring teenagers I have come across are those
>that have very strict parents.

I have *observed* those people and their behaviour over a period of three
years, Ayaz, for they live in a house, the side of which is opposite my
front garden across a very narrow road, but I only *met* them the other
Saturday. Over those years, particularly when I could not walk even to the
front of my own drive, I have had to call the police on 5 or 6 occasions to
have cars that were blocking my drive shifted so I could drive out. On
every occasion these cars proved to belong to this family or its visitors,
and they were parked opposite my drive despite the rest of the road being
empty, for every house has room in its drive for two cars here; some, like
mine, three. I will not go into more detail, other than to say that on a
couple of the earlier occasions, when the police went from door to door to
check where the owners might be, they struck lucky immediately, for this
house is number 1 in the close. On a couple of subsequent occasions at
weekends, Jeanne went over to politely enquire if the latest car blocking
us was one of their visitors, and got a frosty response, after which we had
to call the police and tell them the story. I've seen the son kicking a
football into the sides of cars parked down the street on many occasions as
I've been driving out. His parents are less strict than you can possibly
easily imagine, having been brought up, no doubt, to respect other
civilised people's rights and property, as I was.

>Police statistics aren't reliable. Statistics, in fact, I think, is
>an unreliable word.

In this case they are probably right. Many independent reports over recent
years have put the average number of people actively occupied in crime at
any one time between 200,000 and 500,000 in mainland Britain. That's about
1% of the population at a maximum. When I rant about such things, I tend to
pick headline cases to quote, to make my point, but as John Dean and Matti
(and others) have pointed out, the chance of any one particular property
being chosen at any one particular time for a hit is very small. If you or
your property keeps getting hit, then you have to ask what makes it or you
so attractive to criminals.

>Maybe, just maybe, if these yobs get busted, and spend a night or two
>in jail, they might change. If so, you could do much to make a
>difference, only if you choose to.

The prison experience of Tony Martin (the reclusive chap who lived in a
remote farmhouse, and who shot and killed one of the three robbers who had
deliberately targeted him) showed those who care to know that the majority
of people in prison become attached to it. In general, most are young,
poorly educated and barely literate, on drugs possibly before they first
came to prison and certainly having no difficulty in remaining on them
while inside. They refuse education, preferring to spend their time in the
gym, listening to pop music, and lounging around. When many are released,
they often commit a crime within a short time because they feel lost
outside and want to get back with their mates. This sort of behaviour has
been noticed and documented on many occasions, not just by "bleeding heart"
groups. A recently-retired chief inspector of prisons wrote many damning
reports of the conditions inside prisons, and the sort of people who keep
coming back, but most of them were filed and forgotten.

The short, sharp shock treatment has been tried, but the age at which it is
effective has reduced so much that most civilised people cannot believe how
young the kids to which it has to be applied have to be. "But they're so
young" was a cry before and during the trial of the two ten-years-olds who
murdered James Bulger, a toddler, by beating him to death a decade or so
ago. In Britain, one would have to catch a sensitive child at around the
age of 10, performing his first crime, to make such a shock effective. In
certain inner city parts of America and Britain, police, social workers and
probation officers, athletes and the like, and parents, give a great deal
of their time, voluntarily, to help prevent kids as young as 10 (Britain)
or 6 (America) from being recruited by gangs. Once hooked by gangs, kids
are almost immune to the shock treatment, and on both sides of the pond
such kids in mid-teens boast of their crimes and punishments to other,
younger and more gullible kids, and are considered to be heroic and cool.

The stock answer seems to be "Education, education, education", but it does
not seem to have worked for many of the kids who are most vulnerable.

Signature

wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall

Quiet part of Hertfordshire
England

meirman - 28 Dec 2003 21:10 GMT
In alt.english.usage on Sat, 27 Dec 2003 16:27:20 -0600 "B. Phillips"
<NOSPAM.phillipsbp@cox.NOSPAM.net> posted:

>By one definition it's a place (if you are of that particular religious
>bent.)  A noun.  And so should be capitalized.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>Dictionary (unabridged) says the same thing...but doesn't specify the
>capital "H".

The actual location of Hell has been closed for remodeling, since just
before the dictionary you mention was published.  They have been
depending on spiritual, philosophical, and theological emulations of
Hell for now.  

Hell itself was planned to reopen July 2004, if materials and workers
are available on time.  Unfortunatly, they contractors and employers
are mostly residents and soon-to-be residents of hell, so not
surprisingly, there is a lot of graft, no-shows, people at the track
when they should be at work.  Actual reopening is expected some time
in 2009.

>Thoughts?
>
>Brian

s/ meirman    If you are emailing me please  
say if you are posting the same response.

Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years
            Indianapolis,   7 years
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            Brooklyn NY    12 years
            Baltimore      20 years
Joe Fineman - 28 Dec 2003 23:15 GMT
> By one definition it's a place (if you are of that particular
> religious bent.)  A noun.  And so should be capitalized.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> New International Dictionary (unabridged) says the same thing...but
> doesn't specify the capital "H".

In my CDROM AHD, the place definition (given first) has the note
"Often Hell".  In my experience, religious writers who take the notion
seriously and use the word literally tend to use the capital H.  I
think what leads to the lowercase h in more casual use is the way the
literal meaning grades off into mere profanity -- it's hard to draw a
line.  C. S. Lewis has a little fun with the contrast:

 Perhaps my bad temper or my jealousy are gradually getting worse
 -- so gradually that the increase in seventy years will not be
 very noticeable.  But it might be absolute hell in a million
 years: in fact, if Christianity is true, Hell is the precisely
 correct technical term for what it would be.
                                             -- _Mere Christianity_

I presume he proofread that carefully.
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---  Joe Fineman    jcf@TheWorld.com

||:  You can accomplish plenty if you don't care who gets the  :||
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Mark Wallace - 31 Dec 2003 21:53 GMT
> By one definition it's a place (if you are of that particular
> religious bent.)  A noun.  And so should be capitalized.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Thoughts?

I do capitalise it, every time (unless I forget).
You can, too, if you want to.

--
Mark Wallace
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