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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2004Oh comma all ye faithful
This is the title of an article in Times 2 today, by Lynne Truss, author who eats, shoots and leaves. [That should be 'of', and some quotation marks are missing. Ed.] Huh? Anyway, those of you who cannot access the Times' website, enjoy. http://homepage.ntlworld.com/docrobin/truss.htm  Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England >This is the title of an article in Times 2 today, by Lynne Truss, author >who eats, shoots and leaves. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >http://homepage.ntlworld.com/docrobin/truss.htm Thank you ever so much, Doctor. I was supposed to get that book for Christmas, but Amazon nodded. Now I will force my daughter to redouble her efforts. Tell me, do you intend to keep that article on your site? Over here, I'd fear getting sued by the Times. But if you are unafraid, and plan to keep it available, I want to put a link to it on my page. I am in the process of writing an essay on the use of commas for my students, but this woman has done it far better than I can. Perhaps I shall stick to semicolons. Carter Carter Jefferson carterj98@mindspring.com http://carterj.homestead.com/ Carter Jefferson <carterj98@mindspring.com> wrote on 30 Dec 2003: [...] > I am in the process of writing an essay on the use of commas for > my students, but this woman has done it far better than I can. > Perhaps I shall stick to semicolons. Yes, it was an interesting and well-written article, but what can one say about the judgment of a writer who places "only" both before and after the verb --- in two different sentences, of course --- for what seems to me to be no good reason: whimsical, inconsistent, arbitrary, other [please specify]? "Now, so many highly respected writers adopt the splice comma that a rather unfair rule emerges on this one: only do it if you’re famous." And a few lines down: "When the interruption to the sentence comes at the beginning or at the end, the grammatical rule of commas-in-pairs still applies, even if you can see only one of them." I would have the first one as "do it only if you're famous" and the second as it is, "even if you can see only one of them". But she should have the second as "even if you can only see one of them" to be consistent. SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor. > what can > one say about the judgment of a writer who places "only" both [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > she should have the second as "even if you can only see one of > them" to be consistent. Why do you assume that consistency trumps all other considerations? -- Mike Nitabach Michael Nitabach <mnitabach@acedsl.com> wrote on 30 Dec 2003: >> what can >> one say about the judgment of a writer who places "only" both [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Why do you assume that consistency trumps all other considerations? It trumps all other considerations only when there are no other considerations more important than consistency. I see no other considerations to take seriously in the article. The woman is obviously mad and only a loose canon can express her ire. In addition, I'm obviously more obsessive-compulsive about these things than you are. SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor. >Michael Nitabach <mnitabach@acedsl.com> wrote on 30 Dec 2003: > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >considerations to take seriously in the article. The woman is obviously >mad and only a loose canon can express her ire. Although the press have had various stories about loose religious gentlemen of various sorts recently, I think you meant cannon. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England fOn Wed, 31 Dec 2003 00:10:40 +0000, the renowned Dr Robin Bignall <docrobin@ntlworld.com> wrote: >>Michael Nitabach <mnitabach@acedsl.com> wrote on 30 Dec 2003: >> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >Although the press have had various stories about loose religious gentlemen >of various sorts recently, I think you meant cannon. Canons don't lie. Best regards, Spehro Pefhany Signature"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote on 31 Dec 2003: > fOn Wed, 31 Dec 2003 00:10:40 +0000, the renowned Dr Robin Bignall > <docrobin@ntlworld.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > Canons don't lie. No, I really meant "canon". Her canon of punctuation is rather loose; it doesn't lie, but it speaks with a forked tongue. I don't like her choices or her attitude about the serial comma. SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor. > "Now, so many highly respected writers adopt the splice comma that a > rather unfair rule emerges on this one: only do it if you’re famous." [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > have the second as "even if you can only see one of them" to be > consistent. In Spanish, we distinguish the adjective from the adverb by an accent: solo / sólo Looks like this writer puts adverbial 'only' after the verb phrase ('do it only if')--or should I call that 'prepositional only'?--and adjectival 'only' before the noun ('only one') Ought to be no shortage of punctuation to criticize in the above paragraph. :-) SignatureWes Groleau When all you have is a perl, everything looks like a string. > > "Now, so many highly respected writers adopt the splice comma that a > > rather unfair rule emerges on this one: only do it if you’re famous." [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Ought to be no shortage of punctuation to criticize > in the above paragraph. :-) Currently, the tendency is for "only" to follow the verb no matter what is being modified. Except when it precedes the verb no matter what is being modified. Put "only" in this sentence: I hit him in the eye yesterday. Cece ceceliaarmstrong@yahoo.com (Cece) wrote on 31 Dec 2003: [...] > Currently, the tendency is for "only" to follow the verb no matter > what is being modified. Except when it precedes the verb no > matter what is being modified. > > Put "only" in this sentence: > I hit him in the eye yesterday. I only hit only him only in his only eye only yesterday. I changed "the" to "his" to allow for another "only". SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor. Wes Groleau <groleau@freeshell.org> wrote on 30 Dec 2003: >> "Now, so many highly respected writers adopt the splice comma >> that a rather unfair rule emerges on this one: only do it if [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > the verb phrase ('do it only if')--or should I call > that 'prepositional only'? That's because the "only" in this case modifies the prepositional phrase "if you're famous" > --and adjectival 'only' before the noun ('only one') and here modifies "one". > Ought to be no shortage of punctuation to criticize > in the above paragraph. :-) SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor. >>Looks like this writer puts adverbial 'only' after >>the verb phrase ('do it only if')--or should I call [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > and here modifies "one". Now I'm confused. I thought you were criticizing her choice before, but now you're defending it? SignatureWes Groleau "Would the prodigal have gone home if the elder brother was running the farm?" -- James Jordan Wes Groleau <groleau@freeshell.org> wrote on 31 Dec 2003: >>[ADDED: Wes Groleau wrote:] >>>Looks like this writer puts adverbial 'only' after >>>the verb phrase ('do it only if')--or should I call >>>that 'prepositional only'? "this writer" ought to refer to me and not Truss, who said "only do it if you’re famous." [CC} >> That's because the "only" in this case modifies the prepositional >> phrase "if you're famous" [WG] >>>--and adjectival 'only' before the noun ('only one') [CC] >> and here modifies "one". [WG] > Now I'm confused. I thought you were criticizing > her choice before, but now you're defending it? Wes, I advocate putting the modifier immediately before the word or phrase it modifies. She does that in the second case, "only one", but not in the first case, "only do it if you're famous". I don't believe that "only" modifies with the clause or the verb it immediately precedes in this example of her prose --- that doesn't make any sense to me, even though I know what she means and even though this is the most common construction in English at every level. I realize that I am in the quantum minority here. That doesn't bother me, but I am not about to take advice from someone who is inconsistent without some sort of explanation of why she's inconsistent. As someone else in this thread mentioned, we do have some free choice about where adverbs may be placed in sentences. As if I didn't know that already. So I wasn't very nice in my reply to him. But I don't think that free choice allows for such arbitrary placement. Once we grant this kind of thing status as acceptable and idiomatic English, there isn't anything that cannot be defended as such. I'm not asking the world to change the way it uses English, nor am I saying that historically "only" always immediately preceded or immediately followed the word, phrase, or clause it modified. I am saying that I personally don't like arbitrary placement of "only". I don't like the way it sounds ini this case and I don't like the implication that something other than "if you're famous" is being modified by the "only" here. I have no problem at all with "I only have eyes for you" as a song title and a line in a song. It sounds a lot better to my ear than "I have eyes for only you" or "I have eyes for you only", both of which are grammatical alternatives for the song title. But they don't sound right with that music and with the rest of the lyrics. They might sound right in some other context, but I won't attempt to create one to prove a point. Nobody but a seriously demented nitpicker is going to sit down and wonder whether "I only have eyes for you" means that the only reason the singer has eyes is to look at you or that the singer has eyes for (is madly in love with, cares about, can see, etc) only you and you alone. The first interpretation is absurd. Another poster suggested that someone place "only" in a sentence in which every different placement changes the meaning of the sentence. I liked that sentence. It was enough to demonstrate that adverb placement matters in formal prose and when clear and precise communication is called for. I hope that I have cleared up your confusion. SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor. >Carter Jefferson <carterj98@mindspring.com> wrote on 30 Dec 2003: > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >have the second as "even if you can only see one of them" to be >consistent. There is absolutely no reason to demand consistency in the placement of adverbs. Even in the case of gframmar, we are given some free choices. That's one. Carter Jefferson carterj98@mindspring.com http://carterj.homestead.com/ Carter Jefferson <carterj98@mindspring.com> wrote on 31 Dec 2003: [...] > There is absolutely no reason to demand consistency in the > placement of adverbs. Even in the case of gframmar, we are given > some free choices. That's one. You're right. English is not a computer language, so it's okay to be arbitrary, whimsical, inconsistent, and ambiguous. Might as well say that the order of adjectives means nothing either. Hey, dja see that red big over there house? Dja see the leeweigh (spelling choice: it sounds the same and nobody's gonna think twice about what it's supposed to mean becuz the context makes it veri cleer). I mean, like, who cares about what word or phrase or sentence an "only" modifies eniwayz. It's a only word, right? Like that sirveigh that talk tabowt how it aint necessary to put the ledders of wordz in uh rite order cuz evribuddy nose what thei mean enywayz, rait? Eye gahtcha. SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor. [...] > I am in the process of writing an essay on the use of commas for my > students, but this woman has done it far better than I can. Perhaps I > shall stick to semicolons. If you stick to the comma project, you could call it *The Comma Sutra*. Your forthcoming guide to Internet trading could be *The Dot Com Sutra*. But if you do go for the sorely-needed guide to semicolons, that would be *The Dot Comma Sutra*. Mike. > [...] > > I am in the process of writing an essay on the use of commas for my [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Mike. *woof!* I liked it, and my dog liked it. :) DJ > > [...] > > > I am in the process of writing an essay on the use of commas for my [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > DJ Er... clarifaction: I liked your post, not necessarily the book. I can't judge the book yet because I haven't been able to find it in the 'normal' book stores. *sighs* But I'm sure it will turn up before I spend all my Xmas money. DJ >>This is the title of an article in Times 2 today, by Lynne Truss, author >>who eats, shoots and leaves. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> >>http://homepage.ntlworld.com/docrobin/truss.htm Robin, Did you read the response to Lynne Truss by a former Editor of The Times Style Guide? http://www.timesonline.co.uk/printFriendly/0,,1-152-943425-152,00.html "December 26, 2003 I have been Trussed up by a stylistic punk Simon Jenkins Here we are on Boxing Day reading the book sensation of the season. We are all Trussed up. Eats, Shoots and Leaves has outsold cookery and football. It has outsold junk Victoriana. This hilarious apologia of an apostrophe freak has revealed a nation of literary jay-walkers who cannot find the kerb. They know not how to stop. ... My admiration for Lynnes purpose is total. Yet I disagree with almost all she says. ..." SignaturePeter Duncanson UK (posting from a.e.u) > >>This is the title of an article in Times 2 today, by Lynne Truss, author > >>who eats, shoots and leaves. [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > she says. > ..." But she's right! Cece >>>This is the title of an article in Times 2 today, by Lynne Truss, author >>>who eats, shoots and leaves. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Did you read the response to Lynne Truss by a former Editor of The Times >Style Guide? Yes. (Simon Jenkins is one of my favourite Times writers. A long time ago the editor of the Times either died or left suddenly, and the board asked him to assume the editorship until they found a replacement. He accepted, reluctantly, for as he said at the time, he preferred to be independent, and the editorship was not something he wanted. He promised to serve for either one year, or until they found a new editor, whichever happened the sooner. I think he served out most or all of that year being an excellent editor, but he meant what he said and they had to find somebody else. He went back to being one of their chief contributors again. He has also served on some important government committees.) I thought I had referred to it in passing in a previous post to one of the groups, but I can't find it in my 'posts sent' file. I have the article here, I suppose I meant to post something about it, and changed my mind. The road to hell is paved with.. Er.. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England "Dr Robin Bignall" <docrobin@ntlworld.com> wrote... > (Simon Jenkins is one of my favourite Times writers. [...]) Knighted today, but said at lunchtime that he doesn't want to be Sirred. Matti >"Dr Robin Bignall" <docrobin@ntlworld.com> wrote... >> >> (Simon Jenkins is one of my favourite Times writers. [...]) > >Knighted today, but said at lunchtime that he doesn't want to be Sirred. I heard about the knighthood this morning, and his desire not to use the title doesn't surprise me. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England > >"Dr Robin Bignall" <docrobin@ntlworld.com> wrote... > >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I heard about the knighthood this morning, and his desire not to use the > title doesn't surprise me. Does a knight-elect have advance warning, or does the Queen sneak up and tap him on his shoulder while asking "Knighthood! Accept or reject?" SignatureSML ess el five six zero at columbia dot edu <http://pirate-women.com> sl560_delete_this_@columbia.edu spake thus: > > >"Dr Robin Bignall" <docrobin@ntlworld.com> wrote... > > >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Does a knight-elect have advance warning, or does the Queen sneak up and > tap him on his shoulder while asking "Knighthood! Accept or reject?" The knight is en-knighted from the day the formal announcement is made, but the ceremony might take place months later (rather like a coronation). The whole process takes months, starting with a letter from some Gong Master Persuivant, who swears you to utter secrecy, but asks if you might accept the honour, should be offered. If it gets out, the actual honour never arrives. SignatureDavid ===== > sl560_delete_this_@columbia.edu spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > might accept the honour, should be offered. If it gets out, the > actual honour never arrives. Tim Henman's did. A few people have let it slip and still collected the gong. But if Simon Jenkins doesn't want to be 'sirred', why on earth accept the title? Is his wife desperate to be Ladied? -- John Dean Oxford De-frag to reply john-dean@frag.lineone.net spake thus: > > sl560_delete_this_@columbia.edu spake thus: > > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > gong. But if Simon Jenkins doesn't want to be 'sirred', why on earth accept > the title? Is his wife desperate to be Ladied? Some papers seem to get an inkling of the list a few days before - it's probably OK if the honoree didn't broadcast the news himself. Simon Jenkins said that he's not a natural refuser, so he considered that his best action was to say "thank you very much" and move on. SignatureDavid ===== >john-dean@frag.lineone.net spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > >Some papers seem to get an inkling of the list a few days before - The papers appear to receive the list sufficiently in advance to be able to prepare articles on the people honoured. >it's probably OK if the honoree didn't broadcast the news himself. >Simon Jenkins said that he's not a natural refuser, so he considered >that his best action was to say "thank you very much" and move on. SignaturePeter Duncanson UK (posting from a.e.u) >> john-dean@frag.lineone.net spake thus: >> [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > The papers appear to receive the list sufficiently in advance to be > able to prepare articles on the people honoured. The papers get the list a couple of weeks before the due date with an embargo on publication. Thus they can do their research and interview such recipients as they wish to. -- John Dean Oxford De-frag to reply > john-dean@frag.lineone.net spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > Simon Jenkins said that he's not a natural refuser, so he considered > that his best action was to say "thank you very much" and move on. Henman's gong was featured in an investigative series in the Sunday Times which started some weeks ago. They have a mole who leaked information about who had refused honours, about who is on the relevant committees and also provided a copy of the minutes of one of the relevant meetings in which it was decided Henman would get a little something 'to add interest to the list'. Henman confirmed the impending award and said he would be very proud to receive it. They could hardly take it off him. Jenkins is, apparently, going along with the fiction that they ring you up and say 'Congrats, you've got a knighthood'. They don't. You get a letter months in advance asking coyly if you would be prepared to accept an honour if HM chose to offer you one in the forthcoming bunfight. Saying 'I don't think so' hardly rings out as the last stand of the refusenik. And for people like Jenkins, there is usually a bit of off-the-record haggling as to what, if anything, they might get. If not, indeed, some lobbying by the hopeful recipient on the lines of 'It must be my turn by now, surely?' I remain unconvinced. If he doesn't want to be called 'Sir', why on earth accept an award whose only noticeable effect is to do precisely that? -- John Dean Oxford De-frag to reply >>john-dean@frag.lineone.net spake thus: >> [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > I remain unconvinced. If he doesn't want to be called 'Sir', why on earth > accept an award whose only noticeable effect is to do precisely that? My unlce was given a knighthood by the Belgian government. As far as I know, he was never called by any new title or honorific[1], and anyone who didn't know about the award when it was conferred would not have found out about it later. That didn't stop him from being extremely proud of the award, nor make it seem pointless to the rest of us. [1] I don't know whether there is any any Belgian honorific that people with Belgian knighthoods routinely use. SignatureFrances Kemmish Production Manager East Coast Youth Ballet www.byramartscenter.com Frances Kemmish: > My unlce was given a knighthood ... That's uk.no.language.culture.english? :-) SignatureMark Brader, Toronto, msb@vex.net | "Fast, cheap, good: choose any two." >Frances Kemmish: >> My unlce was given a knighthood ... > >That's uk.no.language.culture.english? :-) Nice one, Mark. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England >Jenkins is, apparently, going along with the fiction that they ring you up >and say 'Congrats, you've got a knighthood'. They don't. You get a letter [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >I remain unconvinced. If he doesn't want to be called 'Sir', why on earth >accept an award whose only noticeable effect is to do precisely that? The Patronage Office, among its other duties, maintains a list of those who are *not* to be offered honours. There are various ways of getting onto this, but most accounts of the honours system suggest that actually being so crass as to *ask* for one is one of them. Anyone can recommend anyone else, though. SignatureDon Aitken Mail to the addresses given in the headers is no longer being read. To mail me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com". > >Jenkins is, apparently, going along with the fiction that they ring you up > >and say 'Congrats, you've got a knighthood'. They don't. You get a letter [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > that actually being so crass as to *ask* for one is one of them. > Anyone can recommend anyone else, though. Well, *duh*, you don't ask the monkeys. You invite one of the organ grinders to an expensive lunch and pursue a line like 'You know, Minister, I've often wondered whether people realise that it is the fortune I have made in widgets that enables me to subsidise causes dear to my heart like the rescuing of fallen women and the encouragement of innovative political thought. Do you ever wonder, as I do, whether people like me are sufficiently noticed?' Though I don't think there has been a 'Patronage Office' as such for some time now. Pity the Times have decided to charge for access to their archives or I could have linked to their interesting series of articles on 'The system - how she works'. Though this is online for another 24 hours : http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-944832,00.html << The handbook reveals the bureaucracy behind the system, leading to allegations that the government might have tried to hide the true cost of awarding honours. The Cabinet Office has claimed that drawing up the twice-yearly lists of awards costs £500,000 but calculations suggest the real figure to be about £2m - four times the government figure. This is because the official cost covers only the running of the Cabinet Office's central ceremonial secretariat, with a staff of 16, and ignores the complex machinery scattered throughout Whitehall and the devolved assemblies - even overseas - that are also devoted to drawing up the lists. << It details how ministers participate in several crucial stages. At the beginning officials are told to give ministers "the opportunity to put names forward". The ministers' views, it says, should be taken into account "in internal discussions" and at the "earliest possible stage". A few months later a preliminary list of departmental recommendations is given to cabinet ministers so that they can "comment". Insiders say their decisions are usually final. >> -- John Dean Oxford De-frag to reply >> The Patronage Office, among its other duties, maintains a list of >> those who are *not* to be offered honours. There are various ways of [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >thought. Do you ever wonder, as I do, whether people like me are >sufficiently noticed?' There is another side to it. Many years ago a friend of mine had a daughter at a school for the mentally handicapped, run by a very dedicated woman. A group of parents got together, solicited recommendations from a few local figures who knew of her work, and she finally got some recognition. That is the way the system is supposed to work, and, much of the time, does. >Though I don't think there has been a 'Patronage Office' as such for some >time now. There is a Private Secretary (Patronage and Ceremonial) to the Prime Minister, as well as the Cabinet Office section. SignatureDon Aitken Mail to the addresses given in the headers is no longer being read. To mail me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com". >The Patronage Office, among its other duties, maintains a list of >those who are *not* to be offered honours. There are various ways of >getting onto this, but most accounts of the honours system suggest >that actually being so crass as to *ask* for one is one of them. >Anyone can recommend anyone else, though. I was going to suggest that if I recommend you, will you reciprocate? Then I read John's post and realised that I was one of the monkeys. Sorry, Don. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England >> The Patronage Office, among its other duties, maintains a list of >> those who are *not* to be offered honours. There are various ways of [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Then I read John's post and realised that I was one of the monkeys. > Sorry, Don. No no. The monkeys are the Civil Servants who operate the system. The Organ grinders are the Ministers with final say. -- John Dean Oxford De-frag to reply >>> The Patronage Office, among its other duties, maintains a list of >>> those who are *not* to be offered honours. There are various ways of [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >No no. The monkeys are the Civil Servants who operate the system. The Organ >grinders are the Ministers with final say. No wonder that during a session with a Civil Servant, I feel like jumping; out of the nearest window. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England >> sl560_delete_this_@columbia.edu spake thus: >> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >gong. But if Simon Jenkins doesn't want to be 'sirred', why on earth accept >the title? Is his wife desperate to be Ladied? It is perfectly reasonable to accept an honour but not to use the title that goes with it except in formal occasions. Another former editor of The Times, William Rees-Mogg, continues to use that name for professional purposes, although he is actually Lord Rees-Mogg, having been ennobled in 1988 as Baron Rees-Mogg of Hinton Blewitt. I don't know what form he prefers in his private life. My father was awarded an OBE. He valued the recognition represented by the award, but did not make a public issue of it. He would not put the letters after his name except in a formal context when it was relevant to do so. SignaturePeter Duncanson UK (posting from a.e.u) >> sl560_delete_this_@columbia.edu spake thus: >> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >gong. But if Simon Jenkins doesn't want to be 'sirred', why on earth accept >the title? Is his wife desperate to be Ladied? Jenkins gave his reasons in a centre-page article in The Times on Thursday. Part of it reads: "When offered an honour I pondered joining this galaxy. I had and have no intention of using a title. Why go through the hassle of formally accepting one? Under the Stuarts, some men paid £10,000 not to receive baronetcies, so onerous were the associated duties. After the leak I could have publicly rejected the honour and been the toast of every chattering table in town. I decided otherwise. The offer could hardly be thought political, my view of this government being oft recorded on this page. I was genuinely pleased to be recognised beyond the boundaries of my own profession. I decided not to reject but join 981 other citizens and accept the honour with gratitude." (Copyright 2004 Simon Jenkins and Times Newspapers.) He otherwise is not too keen, to say the least, about the Honours System. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England > >Tim Henman's did. A few people have let it slip and still collected the > >gong. But if Simon Jenkins doesn't want to be 'sirred', why on earth accept [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > He otherwise is not too keen, to say the least, about the Honours System. I'm sorry, that makes me more confused. How can someone simultaneously be "not to keen, to say the least, about the Honours System" and yet say "I was genuinely pleased to be recognized"? I would understand sour grapes. I would understand dog-in-the-manger. But this is all mixed up. Is there an applicable Aesop's Fable? Is there one where someone bad-mouths the lion and yet goes happily into its den when invited? Maybe someone could locate what the guy has actually written in the past about honors? Oops, I'd better spell that "honours." SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux >> >Tim Henman's did. A few people have let it slip and still collected the >> >gong. But if Simon Jenkins doesn't want to be 'sirred', why on earth accept [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >Maybe someone could locate what the guy has actually written in the past >about honors? Oops, I'd better spell that "honours." Donna, I've put his article up on my website for a day or two, at http://homepage.ntlworld.com/docrobin/jenkins.htm Unfortunately, nobody can search The Times' database without paying a fee, and I can't recall him writing about it before. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England > >I'm sorry, that makes me more confused. How can someone simultaneously > >be "not to keen, to say the least, about the Honours System" and yet say [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Unfortunately, nobody can search The Times' database without paying a fee, > and I can't recall him writing about it before. Thank you, Robin, that does help. He thinks that some honors are given our fairly and deservedly, and many are given out unfairly and undeservedly; he feels good about the one given to him, but wishes the whole muddled mess would disappear or be radically transformed. I can see that now. Somehow, it still seems more, well, honorable to refuse if one thinks the award system is hopelessly corrupt. And hypocritical to say, "Well, mine is one of the deserved ones." Like those highly irregular verbs: My award is a welcome recognition of my talents. You were the beneficiary of political correctness. He bought his. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux >> >I'm sorry, that makes me more confused. How can someone simultaneously >> >be "not to keen, to say the least, about the Honours System" and yet say [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >You were the beneficiary of political correctness. >He bought his. Letter in the Sunday Times today: "I was displeased to read all the criticisms in your paper of our excellent honours system. In my considerable experience those honoured are invariably worthy recipients of their honours. Colonel Sir Martin Couth KGB, CB, BSE, MFI, GCSE (Woodwork), Sevenoaks, Kent." Mike - M.J.Powell >>>> I'm sorry, that makes me more confused. How can someone >>>> simultaneously be "not to keen, to say the least, about the [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > Colonel Sir Martin Couth KGB, CB, BSE, MFI, GCSE (Woodwork), > Sevenoaks, Kent." Couth by name ... -- John Dean Oxford De-frag to reply [...] > Somehow, it still seems more, well, honorable to refuse if one thinks > the award system is hopelessly corrupt. And hypocritical to say, "Well, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > You were the beneficiary of political correctness. > He bought his. Personally, I don't think journalists -- or their employers -- should accept honours at all, except perhaps when genuinely retired (as few are). The Fourth Estate is inevitably a special case. Mike. >My award is a welcome recognition of my talents. >You were the beneficiary of political correctness. >He bought his. Not always true - sometimes the gong is truly hard-won and well deserved. On formal occasions, I have the honor to be addressed with the letters KBM after my name. I can assure you that this was no sinecure and involved a lot of pain and sacrifice. Jitze Couperus KBM (KBM = Kicked By Mule) >>My award is a welcome recognition of my talents. >>You were the beneficiary of political correctness. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >with the letters KBM after my name. I can assure you that >this was no sinecure and involved a lot of pain and sacrifice. I have a BS, for I was in the Boy Scouts for years, and solved some knotty problems. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England >>> My award is a welcome recognition of my talents. >>> You were the beneficiary of political correctness. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I have a BS, for I was in the Boy Scouts for years, and solved some > knotty problems. That's just B.S., Robin. m. >>>> My award is a welcome recognition of my talents. >>>> You were the beneficiary of political correctness. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >That's just B.S., Robin. Would you accept "tied one knot"? My lanyard fell off once, but my woggle stayed in place. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England >>> My award is a welcome recognition of my talents. >>> You were the beneficiary of political correctness. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I have a BS, for I was in the Boy Scouts for years, and solved some > knotty problems. I sewed an achievement badge on my daughter's Brownie Uniform and she made me a 'Needleman' badge. Which I still have. -- John Dean Oxford De-frag to reply >>>>My award is a welcome recognition of my talents. >>>>You were the beneficiary of political correctness. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I sewed an achievement badge on my daughter's Brownie Uniform and she made > me a 'Needleman' badge. Which I still have. In that case, since you have declined my previous job offer of the post as my research assistant [1], perhaps you could make my life easier by dealing with my mending? [1] Now far more prestigious, given my recent elevation. I have just received a message from a colleague which begins "I hear that you are now professor of carpet grievance" and continues with a sad tale about an Axminster. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >> >"Dr Robin Bignall" <docrobin@ntlworld.com> wrote... >> >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Does a knight-elect have advance warning, or does the Queen sneak up and >tap him on his shoulder while asking "Knighthood! Accept or reject?" That would be fun - particularly if the Queen were accompanied by The Gentleman/Lady Bearer of the Royal Camcorder. Boringly, there is advance warning in the form of a letter to the proposed recipient of the honour. The individual has the opportunity to reply "No thank you". An offer and its refusal are treated as private by the authorities. The refusor is free to talk about it. SignaturePeter Duncanson UK (posting from a.e.u) >>This is the title of an article in Times 2 today, by Lynne Truss, author >>who eats, shoots and leaves. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >I'd fear getting sued by the Times. But if you are unafraid, and plan >to keep it available, I want to put a link to it on my page. Heck, I don't know. Now I'm worried. Any English lawyers out there? Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England >>>This is the title of an article in Times 2 today, by Lynne Truss, author >>>who eats, shoots and leaves. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >> >Heck, I don't know. Now I'm worried. Any English lawyers out there? IANAL, but I know about this one. If it worries them, they have two options: 1. You might get a letter from their lawyers telling you to take it down. If you do that, that will be it. 2. They complain to NTL, rather than you, in which case, assuming that you haven't done anything else to piss them off, you will probably only have to grovel a bit, although they would be within their rights to remove all your pages without warning. I think that 2. is much more likely than 1., but that by far the most likely thing is that they will neither notice nor care. SignatureDon Aitken Mail to the addresses given in the headers is no longer being read. To mail me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com". >>>>This is the title of an article in Times 2 today, by Lynne Truss, author >>>>who eats, shoots and leaves. [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >I think that 2. is much more likely than 1., but that by far the most >likely thing is that they will neither notice nor care. Fingers are crossed, but I have done it before, and so am a serial infringer. Carter, don't depend on it being there permanently! Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England "Dr Robin Bignall" typed: >>>>>This is the title of an article in Times 2 today, by Lynne Truss, >>>>>author who eats, shoots and leaves. [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > Fingers are crossed, but I have done it before, and so am a serial > infringer. Carter, don't depend on it being there permanently! This might be the time to store a back-up of your entire website on your hard-disk. You never know. SignatureAyaz Ahmed Khan Yours Forever in, Cyberspace. http://adic.netfirms.com/fastce/home.html [..] >This might be the time to store a back-up of your entire website on >your hard-disk. You never know. Aksherly, the data for my site is on my hard disk. It's just a copy that is hosted on the NTL site. I just have to change the upload address to put a copy anywhere, but my ISP gives me 50 megabytes of host space as part of my monthly cable rental. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England "Dr Robin Bignall" typed: > [..] >>This might be the time to store a back-up of your entire website on [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > address to put a copy anywhere, but my ISP gives me 50 megabytes of > host space as part of my monthly cable rental. Besides those 50-MBs, you don't have to worry about losing anything else. I'm going to purchase domain and web-hosting services for my website today. I'll get free domain name registration, with 30-MBs of hosting space, and ten POP3 e-mail addresses for a very small amount of money which I have to pay annually. Excited I am. SignatureAyaz Ahmed Khan Yours Forever in, Cyberspace. http://adic.netfirms.com/fastce/home.html >"Dr Robin Bignall" typed: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Besides those 50-MBs, you don't have to worry about losing anything >else. True. I back up my complete C: and D: disks to E: every week on a grandfather/father/son basis, and create a CD of personal data about once a week. >I'm going to purchase domain and web-hosting services for my website >today. I'll get free domain name registration, with 30-MBs of hosting >space, and ten POP3 e-mail addresses for a very small amount of >money which I have to pay annually. Excited I am. I never looked into the annual cost of hosting elsewhere. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England "Dr Robin Bignall" typed: >>"Dr Robin Bignall" typed: >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > grandfather/father/son basis, and create a CD of personal data about > once a week. So, you have a CD burner too. I was thinking of buying one, but then my Epson Stylus Colour printer died away recently. And, incidentally, so did my PS2. I surely fear the way this new year is starting for me. >>I'm going to purchase domain and web-hosting services for my website >>today. I'll get free domain name registration, with 30-MBs of >>hosting space, and ten POP3 e-mail addresses for a very small amount >>of money which I have to pay annually. Excited I am. >> > I never looked into the annual cost of hosting elsewhere. And you have good reason not to, too. SignatureAyaz Ahmed Khan Yours Forever in, Cyberspace. http://adic.netfirms.com/fastce/home.html >So, you have a CD burner too. I was thinking of buying one, but then >my Epson Stylus Colour printer died away recently. And, incidentally, >so did my PS2. I surely fear the way this new year is starting for me. Why don't you get a DVD burner instead? I can back up all my personal data on a single DVD with no hassles. They'll burn CDs too, if you want. Best regards, Spehro Pefhany Signature"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com "Spehro Pefhany" typed: >>So, you have a CD burner too. I was thinking of buying one, but then >>my Epson Stylus Colour printer died away recently. And, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > personal data on a single DVD with no hassles. They'll burn CDs too, > if you want. Thanks, Spehro, but lack of money is what's keeping me from buying. I was thinking of getting a dot-matrix printer, since it's economical for large number of plain-text print-outs. Wouldn't you recommend a dot-matrix for such a purpose? SignatureAyaz Ahmed Khan Yours Forever in, Cyberspace. http://adic.netfirms.com/fastce/home.html >"Spehro Pefhany" typed: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >for large number of plain-text print-outs. Wouldn't you recommend a >dot-matrix for such a purpose? I would, yes, if you can't find a good second-hand B/W laser printer. Ink-jet printers used for everyday printing cost more than the printer cost in cartridge refills within months. I've tried refilling cartridges with various kits, but didn't get the same results as with new cartridges. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England >> "Spehro Pefhany" typed: >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > cartridges with various kits, but didn't get the same results as with > new cartridges. http://www.inksaver.com/ I've been using this for a while now. It paid for itself in about six months. And the ability to fine tune your ink levels (as opposed to the traditional draft / normal / high etc settings) for black and colour independently means you can save ink without reducing quality below what is acceptable for any given piece of work. It's a pity they no longer do the trial version, but they say they're considering reintroducing it. -- John Dean Oxford De-frag to reply "Dr Robin Bignall" typed: >>"Spehro Pefhany" typed: >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > refilling cartridges with various kits, but didn't get the same > results as with new cartridges. Thanks. I'll only think of buying a laser print once I get a job. Dot-matrix might be just what I'm looking for. My father gave me that idea, originally. He is the one who needs to have print-outs of different medical reports for his patients frequently. And since the reports only contain text, a dot-matrix will do. SignatureAyaz Ahmed Khan Yours Forever in, Cyberspace. http://adic.netfirms.com/fastce/home.html >"Dr Robin Bignall" typed: > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >my Epson Stylus Colour printer died away recently. And, incidentally, >so did my PS2. I surely fear the way this new year is starting for me. I replaced my CD burner with a DVD burner which handles everything, including CDs. I may eventually get around to advertising the CD burner and an associated fast CD reader on Ebay. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England "Dr Robin Bignall" typed: >>"Dr Robin Bignall" typed: >> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > including CDs. I may eventually get around to advertising the CD > burner and an associated fast CD reader on Ebay. You have got a DVD ROM, too. I have a DVD player embedded into my PS2, which miraculously survived after some IC and a component of the lens that handles DVDs replacements, and which plays both DVD games and DVD movies, although I haven't bought a DVD movie yet. SignatureAyaz Ahmed Khan Yours Forever in, Cyberspace. http://adic.netfirms.com/fastce/home.html > This is the title of an article in Times 2 today, by Lynne Truss, author > who eats, shoots and leaves. > > [That should be 'of', and some quotation marks are missing. Ed.] > > Huh? Anyway, those of you who cannot access the Times' website, enjoy. Enjoy what?! Alan >> This is the title of an article in Times 2 today, by Lynne Truss, author >> who eats, shoots and leaves. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Enjoy what?! Evil is in the eye of the beholder. Another old adage. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England > This is the title of an article in Times 2 today, by Lynne Truss, author > who eats, shoots and leaves. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > http://homepage.ntlworld.com/docrobin/truss.htm Thanks for making that available, Robin. A seasonal gift exchange which caused some amusement led to me receiving a copy of the book from the friend for whom I had purchased a copy. (I wonder how often people exchange identical gifts?) I was delighted since I had, with some difficulty, resisted the temptation to read the book before wrapping it. I am most intrigued by her construction of sentences which contain multiple examples of colons and semicolons. For example: "Cruelty to punctuation is quite unlegislated: you can get away with pulling the legs off semicolons; shrivelling question marks on the garden path under a powerful magnifying glass; you name it. (p.36.) That jumped off the page at me. I can't remember the last time I read a sentence punctuated thus. Laura (emulate St. George for email) >> This is the title of an article in Times 2 today, by Lynne Truss, author >> who eats, shoots and leaves. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >That jumped off the page at me. I can't remember the last time I read a >sentence punctuated thus. I'm glad you enjoyed it, dear professor Laura. I have been so busy away from home since I posted it that I have yet to get round to reading it. I notice too that my dear better half has "tidied up" this room (for some reason that I've yet to discover she has started Spring cleaning now, possibly because she spent Christmas at her mother's place, which I have been told is spotless) and the original article is gone. The "interested in what Truss says about English" part of me will have to log onto my website before the "worried about copying articles from The Times" part of me deletes it. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England > The "interested in > what Truss says about English" part of me will have to log onto my website > before the "worried about copying articles from The Times" part of me > deletes it. Wasn't your conscience one of those things the doctors removed by mistake? SignatureSimon R. Hughes "Simon R. Hughes" <a57998.not.this.bit@yahoo.no> wrote... > > The "interested in what Truss says about English" part of me will > > have to log onto my website before the "worried about copying > > articles from The Times" part of me deletes it. > > Wasn't your conscience one of those things the doctors removed by > mistake? Reminds me of Evelyn Waugh's riposte upon hearing that a growth removed from Randolph Churchill was benign: "Typical of doctors today, that they remove the only part of the fellow that isn't malignant." Matti >> This is the title of an article in Times 2 today, by Lynne Truss, author >> who eats, shoots and leaves. [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >Laura >(emulate St. George for email) I agree. In the US, that punctuation would be considered wrong. Commas would do nicely. Carter Jefferson carterj98@mindspring.com http://carterj.homestead.com/ [snip] > >"Cruelty to punctuation is quite unlegislated: you can get away with > >pulling the legs off semicolons; shrivelling question marks on the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I agree. In the US, that punctuation would be considered wrong. > Commas would do nicely. Yes, for the semicolons, except that "and" or "or" should be inserted after the last one. Otherwise to my eye it's unusual, even peculiar, but not technically objectionable. Were any of the three terms themselves compound, i.e. broken by a comma, the semicolons (with or without a final conjunction) might be necessary to avoid ambiguity. SignatureOdysseus >>> "Cruelty to punctuation is quite unlegislated: you can get away with >>> pulling the legs off semicolons; shrivelling question marks on the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Yes, for the semicolons, except that "and" or "or" should be inserted > after the last one. The last one? I think you meant the first one. The last one should be replaced with an n-dash. > Otherwise to my eye it's unusual, even peculiar, > but not technically objectionable. Umm, I don't know about the non-objectionable part. > Were any of the three terms > themselves compound, i.e. broken by a comma, the semicolons (with or > without a final conjunction) might be necessary to avoid ambiguity. In that case, rewriting would be a far better option. SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) www.geocities.com/opus731/ |
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