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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2004Syntax or semantics?
I've been semi-lurking here for a while and I thought I'd come in with a bit of flame-bait... Does 'good' syntax really matter? I've seen discussion here about Truss, for example, which got rather pedantic about an 'only' that was placed somewhere it shouldn't, and it occurs to me that it's very easy to become rather obsessive about 'correct' grammar. So I suppose my question is: what's more important, syntax or semantics? Of course I understand that clearly thought-through grammar is important to make meaning clear and resolve potential ambiguity. But as a writer, I like to have the freedom to structure a sentence more liberally. I used to be an actor, and I am always very aware of the spoken pattern of the words I'm writing, and for me this takes precedence over 'correct' punctuation or other grammar. As an example, I had an interesting discussion not so long ago about the 'rhetorical' question mark, as in 'It's a nice day, isn't it?', in which almost everyone else insisted the question mark was the only correct punctuation, but where I was convinced that a full stop is more true to the speech pattern. I'm by no means advocating a complete free-for-all in written text - after all, spoken language is full of grammatical structure - just questioning the value of proscriptive rules. And given that my education was in mathematics, I'm probably more logically-minded than the average person, so I can be one hell of a pedant too... Danny -- -------- Try the TimeHunt Christmas CrossCube at http://www.timehunt.com/xmas2003.html >I've been semi-lurking here for a while and I thought I'd come in with a bit >of flame-bait... [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > >Danny I'm also primarily a writer, and I think you're generally correct. Punctuation and grammar take a back seat when matters of meaning, rhythm, sound, and flow are involved. But--and it's a big one--I tend to be a nag about correct grammar, usage, and punctuation because I see flaws in those things causing horrendous problems all the time. Following the rules is vital, unless there's a good reason to break them. For one thing, bad grammar on the page breaks up rhythm and flow most of the time. Punctuation is a singularly important tool, and bad punctuation can have the same effect. Bad usage is disastrous, for people who use the wrong word simply fail to say what they want to say. As for your sentence--'It's a nice day, isn't it?--which mark you use changes the meaning and the sound of the sentence. A question mark makes the inflection rise, and indicates that the questioner is looking for information. A full stop doesn't seem right to me, either. When the speaker is simply stating a fact and expecting agreement, the inflection does not rise, so the question mark doesn't work. But what I hear isn't a full stop, either. Frankly, I don't know a good way to punctuate in the last case, so I wouldn't use that sentence in dialogue in a story or novel. I might in a script, but then I'd add a note on how to say it. Sometimes you can't win. Carter Jefferson carterj98@mindspring.com http://carterj.homestead.com/ [snip] > I used to be an > actor, and I am always very aware of the spoken pattern of the words I'm [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > correct punctuation, but where I was convinced that a full stop is more true > to the speech pattern. I think I'd distinguish the 'rhetorical' falling stress from a genuine negative question by using an exclamation point rather than a period. Likewise for the 'sarcastic' variant, e.g. "Aren't you the saint!"  SignatureOdysseus > Does 'good' syntax really matter? I've seen discussion here about Truss, for > example, which got rather pedantic about an 'only' that was placed somewhere > it shouldn't, and it occurs to me that it's very easy to become rather > obsessive about 'correct' grammar. So I suppose my question is: what's more > important, syntax or semantics? This is a false question. Both are of great importance. It is an error to suppose that one is important while the other is peripheral. After all, you can get semantics across by writing "Me Tarzan, you Jane", but writing in this fashion is very unwise. > Of course I understand that clearly thought-through grammar is important to > make meaning clear and resolve potential ambiguity. But as a writer, I like > to have the freedom to structure a sentence more liberally. I used to be an > actor, and I am always very aware of the spoken pattern of the words I'm > writing, and for me this takes precedence over 'correct' punctuation or > other grammar. I think it's a big mistake to suppose that written English is merely a transcription of spoken English. It isn't. If you try to write merely by transcribing your ordinary speech, you will produce some truly awful writing. Written English is something very different from spoken English, and it has its own structures, requirements and conventions. Modeling writing on speech is no more sensible than modeling speech on writing. Larry Trask larryt@sussex.ac.uk Castiglione contends that "writing is a kind of speech." I think that it would depend on your audience. Some writing and speaking are lost on some audiences. In the main, however, I agree that grammar considerations will very often stifle good writing, especially with students. Hank > > Does 'good' syntax really matter? I've seen discussion here about Truss, for > > example, which got rather pedantic about an 'only' that was placed somewhere [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > Larry Trask > larryt@sussex.ac.uk > Castiglione contends that "writing is a kind of speech." I think that it > would depend on your audience. Some writing and speaking are lost on some > audiences. In the main, however, I agree that grammar considerations will > very often stifle good writing, especially with students. I have more than 30 years of experience with students, and I find this last statement astonishing. I don't think I've ever encountered a student whose writing was impeded by a knowledge of grammar. The common problem is an inadequate command of grammatical conventions and of the proper use of words. Larry Trask larryt@sussex.ac.uk "Larry Trask" typed: >> Castiglione contends that "writing is a kind of speech." I think >> that it would depend on your audience. Some writing and speaking [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > inadequate command of grammatical conventions and of the proper use > of words. If _creativity_ is part of what you mean by _good writing_, then I can confirm that at least having a better grasp of grammar than ever before has somehow -- for the lack of an appropriate word -- weakened my writing ability. Somewhat. Or maybe, I could, very likely, be suffering from writer's block. But I know without a doubt that it happened after I started taking grammar seriously. SignatureAyaz Ahmed Khan Yours Forever in, Cyberspace. http://adic.netfirms.com/fastce/home.html Yes, I know what you mean. It does not follow that knowing grammar well will make a better writer. Grammar, however, applied correctly will generally make writing clearer. Hank > "Larry Trask" typed: > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > I know without a doubt that it happened after I started taking > grammar seriously. "hsinatra" typed: >> "Larry Trask" typed: >> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > well will make a better writer. Grammar, however, applied correctly > will generally make writing clearer. Indeed. I feel that I must not keep myself from confessing that my writing -- whatever I do write, e-mails and USENET posts, for example -- has become unbelievably clearer with a somewhat better knowledge of grammar that it ever was before. SignatureAyaz Ahmed Khan Yours Forever in, Cyberspace. http://adic.netfirms.com/fastce/home.html >"Larry Trask" typed: > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >before has somehow -- for the lack of an appropriate word -- >weakened my writing ability. Somewhat. I don't think that's true at all, Ayaz. Remember that piece that you wrote in about November 2002 and sent to me for comments from a young friend of mine who's almost exactly your age? Your command of English and writing ability has come on leaps and bounds since then. >Or maybe, I could, very likely, be suffering from writer's block. But >I know without a doubt that it happened after I started taking >grammar seriously. If you don't take grammar seriously, you may end up writing like what I does, innit. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England "Dr Robin Bignall" typed: >>"Larry Trask" typed: >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > young friend of mine who's almost exactly your age? Your command of > English and writing ability has come on leaps and bounds since then. Yes. I remember that. But when it comes to concocting stories or events and putting them on paper, I feel hampered. I really do. I sit for hours in front of the screen, looking at the blank editor window, until I eventually decide to dump the idea, close the editor, and read some book. I'm trying my best to finish "Great Expectations" these days. Only, I have only read a hundred-and-fifty pages so far. I was going to write a reply to your friend's letter, which she addressed to me, but dropped the idea, thinking I might ignorantly say something harsh. >>Or maybe, I could, very likely, be suffering from writer's block. >>But I know without a doubt that it happened after I started taking >>grammar seriously. > > If you don't take grammar seriously, you may end up writing like > what I does, innit. Oh gosh! SignatureAyaz Ahmed Khan Yours Forever in, Cyberspace. http://adic.netfirms.com/fastce/home.html >"Dr Robin Bignall" typed: > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >until I eventually decide to dump the idea, close the editor, and >read some book. The way to cure "writer's block" is to stop worrying about the subject you want to write about, and just choose something else apparently quite useless. A single grain of sand in the Sahara, for example. You could consider how it was created (get into chemistry, weather...) and then what it might have seen during its existence (Cleopatra and Mark Antony, for example, Battle of Acteum... Reduction of that area of Egypt from "The Granary of Rome" to a desert...) and just start writing. Before you know it, you will have a dozen pages as quick as boiled asparagus. (Apparently one of Augustus' favourite sayings.) >I was going to write a reply to your friend's letter, which she >addressed to me, but dropped the idea, thinking I might ignorantly say >something harsh. Put it into an e-mail, if you wish, and I'll hand it over. I don't think harshness will come through unless she pissed you off! Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England "Dr Robin Bignall" typed: >>Yes. I remember that. But when it comes to concocting stories or >>events and putting them on paper, I feel hampered. I really do. I [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > a dozen pages as quick as boiled asparagus. (Apparently one of > Augustus' favourite sayings.) I think I have got an idea. I'll let you have a look at the article once I have finished writing it. >>I was going to write a reply to your friend's letter, which she >>addressed to me, but dropped the idea, thinking I might ignorantly >>say something harsh. >> > Put it into an e-mail, if you wish, and I'll hand it over. I don't > think harshness will come through unless she pissed you off! Let me reconsider it. SignatureAyaz Ahmed Khan Yours Forever in, Cyberspace. http://adic.netfirms.com/fastce/home.html >"Dr Robin Bignall" typed: > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >I think I have got an idea. I'll let you have a look at the article >once I have finished writing it. OK, but getting over writer's cramp is akin to getting over a motor crash or a fall from a horse. In the last two cases it's best to drive or ride again before you lose your nerve. With writing, just write about anything, and it will soon flow again. >>>I was going to write a reply to your friend's letter, which she >>>addressed to me, but dropped the idea, thinking I might ignorantly [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Let me reconsider it. I wouldn't dream of trying to stop you! Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England >OK, but getting over writer's cramp is akin to getting over a motor crash Did you mean 'writer's block? Writer's cramp is "A cramp or spasm of the muscles of the fingers, hand, and forearm during writing". SignaturePeter Duncanson UK (posting from a.e.u) "Peter Duncanson" typed: >>OK, but getting over writer's cramp is akin to getting over a motor >>crash [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Writer's cramp is "A cramp or spasm of the muscles of the fingers, > hand, and forearm during writing". Does not matter, Peter. Either one keeps you from writing, as I see it. SignatureAyaz Ahmed Khan Yours Forever in, | Webmaster, Cyberspace. | http://adic.netfirms.com/fastce/home.html >"Peter Duncanson" typed: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >Does not matter, Peter. Either one keeps you from writing, as I see >it. That is true. However, in the case of writer's cramp (the physical problem) it is best to rest the hand and arm, rather than to follow Robin's advice for writer's block. SignaturePeter Duncanson UK (posting from a.e.u) >it is best to rest the hand and arm I think better would be better than best in that sentence. SignaturePeter Duncanson UK (posting from a.e.u) "Peter Duncanson" typed: >>"Peter Duncanson" typed: >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > problem) it is best to rest the hand and arm, rather than to follow > Robin's advice for writer's block. Of course, Peter. I know him better -- this has nothing to do with your _best_, for I have already read your reply to yourself -- than just somewhat. Believe me. SignatureAyaz Ahmed Khan Yours Forever in, | Webmaster, Cyberspace. | http://adic.netfirms.com/fastce/home.html >>OK, but getting over writer's cramp is akin to getting over a motor crash > >Did you mean 'writer's block? Yes. I was dozing after lunch. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England "Dr Robin Bignall" typed: >>"Dr Robin Bignall" typed: >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > drive or ride again before you lose your nerve. With writing, just > write about anything, and it will soon flow again. I still don't know how to drive a motor, while wouldn't want to ride on a horse. But, I'll keep in mind your ad-vice. It's not the flow that matters. I can cram anything I like on the editor window. It's the quality that matters. >>>>I was going to write a reply to your friend's letter, which she >>>>addressed to me, but dropped the idea, thinking I might ignorantly [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > I wouldn't dream of trying to stop you! May I have her name again? SignatureAyaz Ahmed Khan Yours Forever in, | Webmaster, Cyberspace. | http://adic.netfirms.com/fastce/home.html >"Dr Robin Bignall" typed: > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >It's not the flow that matters. I can cram anything I like on the >editor window. It's the quality that matters. That comes with practice. >>>>>I was going to write a reply to your friend's letter, which she >>>>>addressed to me, but dropped the idea, thinking I might ignorantly [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >May I have her name again? Katherine. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England "Dr Robin Bignall" typed: >>"Dr Robin Bignall" typed: >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >> > That comes with practice. I just hope it does. >>>>>>I was going to write a reply to your friend's letter, which she >>>>>>addressed to me, but dropped the idea, thinking I might [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Katherine. Thanks. SignatureAyaz Ahmed Khan Yours Forever in, | Webmaster, Cyberspace. | http://adic.netfirms.com/fastce/home.html "Ayaz Ahmed Khan" typed: > "Dr Robin Bignall" typed: > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > I think I have got an idea. I'll let you have a look at the article > once I have finished writing it. Have a look at this, Dr Robin: http://adic.netfirms.com/fastce/english/prose.html SignatureAyaz Ahmed Khan Yours Forever in, | Webmaster, Cyberspace. | http://adic.netfirms.com/fastce/home.html >"Ayaz Ahmed Khan" typed: > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > http://adic.netfirms.com/fastce/english/prose.html I've just sent them to the printer to look at them offline, later. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England > If _creativity_ is part of what you mean by _good writing_, then I > can confirm that at least having a better grasp of grammar than ever [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I know without a doubt that it happened after I started taking > grammar seriously. The situation may improve with practice; as you 'internalize' the rules and principles you're learning they may cease to distract you or disrupt your 'creative flow', if that's what's happening now. SignatureOdysseus "Odysseus" typed: >> If _creativity_ is part of what you mean by _good writing_, then I >> can confirm that at least having a better grasp of grammar than [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > rules and principles you're learning they may cease to distract you > or disrupt your 'creative flow', if that's what's happening now. Somewhat, but not entirely. Most times the head is empty. No ideas. Nothing. Sometimes I can't express a particular thought properly, which keeps from writing it. The head being empty has, I think, to do with writer's block. The latter, I guess, with lack of reading. But I'll pick myself up. SignatureAyaz Ahmed Khan Yours Forever in, | Webmaster, Cyberspace. | http://adic.netfirms.com/fastce/home.html >"Odysseus" typed: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >Somewhat, but not entirely. Most times the head is empty. No ideas. Look around your house. Pick an object. Start writing about its history, what it's made from, how it's made, who acquired it. Do that for a dozen objects, for the practice. Write a description of your father's medical career, or what your mother does during an average day. Don't worry about how to set the world to rights, writing a scientific paper on a discovery that'll get you into the history books or a best-selling novel with deep, meaningful characters and an ending that will make all of its readers weep for hours, or burning the ocean. That'll come later, with experience. >Nothing. Sometimes I can't express a particular thought properly, >which keeps from writing it. The head being empty has, I think, to do >with writer's block. The latter, I guess, with lack of reading. But I'll >pick myself up. Remember that you're not writing in your native language, and take my word for the fact that your English has improved very much in the past year or so. Just think how much more it is bound to improve over the next couple of years. Nil desperandum. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England "Dr Robin Bignall" typed: >>"Odysseus" typed: >> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > characters and an ending that will make all of its readers weep for > hours, or burning the ocean. That'll come later, with experience. I'll do that. But it's so difficult to avoid the feeling of inferiority that you get while reading a novel, that I lose all hope, and start to despair. >>Nothing. Sometimes I can't express a particular thought properly, >>which keeps from writing it. The head being empty has, I think, to [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > past year or so. Just think how much more it is bound to improve > over the next couple of years. Nil desperandum. Ah-ha. I did, in fact, write about five articles late last night, listening to music as my fingers caressed the soft, black-coloured keys on my otherwise transparent keyboard. Thanks. SignatureAyaz Ahmed Khan Yours Forever in, | Webmaster, Cyberspace. | http://adic.netfirms.com/fastce/home.html >"Dr Robin Bignall" typed: > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >inferiority that you get while reading a novel, that I lose all hope, >and start to despair. That's not uncommon. More age, experience and knowledge will probably change that. But if you compare the vastly different styles of Graham Greene, Tolstoy and J K Rowling, for example, all in their own ways very successful writers, you'll eventually realise that there is a niche for A Khan, if he wishes to become a serious writer. I spent years of weekends in the late 1970s and early 1980s writing four novels, two of which I submitted to an agent. I got rejected, of course, and since the day-job paid so well, I decided to do less frustrating things with my weekends. But remember that Freddy Forsythe had over 30 rejections before "Day of the Jackal" got published, and then made into a successful movie with James Fox (I think it was) as The Jackal - a paid assassin out to murder President de Gaulle. Provided it is competently done, getting a first novel published is probably like selling. You don't necessarily have to have a better product than anyone else, just more persistence. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England "Dr Robin Bignall" typed: >>"Dr Robin Bignall" typed: >> [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > necessarily have to have a better product than anyone else, just > more persistence. Encouraging, I should say. You still have any one of those four novels presently? SignatureAyaz Ahmed Khan Yours Forever in, | Webmaster, Cyberspace. | http://adic.netfirms.com/fastce/home.html >You still have any one of those four novels presently? Oh yes. I have everything I've ever written, still mostly in the sealed boxes from when I brought them back from France. I started to scan the longest one (a fantasy novel that very nearly made it to print), to run it into Word and revise it, but it's 700 typed pages long, and at the rate my scanner (which is USB2, not slow) runs at, it'd take ages. The problem is the hand-feeding of pages and the corrections to the OCR output. Even Omnipage Pro 9 won't read perfectly normal English words from a top copy. I just have too many other things to do, Ayaz. I started to try to catch up with AUE last night at midnight, and before I knew it, it was 04.30, and I had to get up at 08.30! Jeanne asks me every day when she calls at lunchtime (for we are still conscious of my health - my footwork ain't so great) "What have you done since yesterday?" My answer is invariably something like "Well, saw Jim, went to the farm for a chat, saw some people, answered some e-mails, looked at the newsgroups, went to 'Meadows' for lunch and 'Kiss' for dinner... Not much, really!", but it occupied about 18 or so waking hours quite fully... (Jim is the chap who restored the car, now a close friend. He's putting new rear springs and shock-absorbers on at the moment, for the 19 year-old ones have got a little bouncy. He's lent me a nifty little Fiat Cinquecento with a manual gearbox (stick-shift), which is fun to drive. Meadows and Kiss are the cafe/deli, and a Turkish restaurant. 'The farm' used to be a farm, now it's a 12 acre field with an 1850s farmhouse, where I meet its owner, Roger and his pals, and laugh myself silly.) Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England "Dr Robin Bignall" typed: >>You still have any one of those four novels presently? > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > corrections to the OCR output. Even Omnipage Pro 9 won't read > perfectly normal English words from a top copy. 700 pages are, indeed, too much. > I just have too many > other things to do, Ayaz. I started to try to catch up with AUE last [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > much, really!", but it occupied about 18 or so waking hours quite > fully... Gosh. You do more than I on a usual day. > (Jim is the chap who restored the car, now a close friend. He's > putting new rear springs and shock-absorbers on at the moment, for [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > with an 1850s farmhouse, where I meet its owner, Roger and his pals, > and laugh myself silly.) I know about Jim: I think he's the one who helped you modify the speed-o-metre of your car when that arsehole policeman caught you. Isn't he the one? SignatureAyaz Ahmed Khan Yours Forever in, | Webmaster, Cyberspace. | http://adic.netfirms.com/fastce/home.html >Gosh. You do more than I on a usual day. I doubt it, Ayaz. I'm just awake longer. You'll find, when you get into your dotage, that you'll need less sleep or suffer from insomnia. Or both. >> (Jim is the chap who restored the car, now a close friend. He's >> putting new rear springs and shock-absorbers on at the moment, for [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >speed-o-metre of your car when that arsehole policeman caught you. >Isn't he the one? Yes, he's the one. I took some photos today of a new spring and shock absorber in place, with Jim holding the old, rusty ones. He put his Ferrari baseball cap on specially, hasn't yet got a Mercedes one. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England "Dr Robin Bignall" typed: >>Gosh. You do more than I on a usual day. >> > I doubt it, Ayaz. I'm just awake longer. You'll find, when you get > into your dotage, that you'll need less sleep or suffer from > insomnia. Or both. Let's see. I get up, on a holiday -- and have been enjoying my holidays since the 24th of December last month, and will continue to do so until the 19th of this month -- at about half past eight in the morning, which is when both of my parents leave for work. I have to close the door behind. Immediately after that, I make myself a frugal breakfast -- which includes, almost always, a cup of tea made in hot water, an half fried egg, and two toasts lubed-up with butter. Only after I have taken my breakfast, do I refresh myself -- I must make the most of this time to confess that I spend a lot of time in the bathroom in the morning -- just in case, I don't masturbate in the morning. My PC is already on, because I leave it that way for days on end, so all I have to do to use it is to switch the monitor back on, and slightly jerk the mouse in any direction to skip the screen-saver. I get connected, check my e-mail, do what I have to with my news-reader, browser a number of websites that I have scribbled on my handy, two-inch by two-inch writing pad the day before -- I tend to forget things quickly, but you already know that. Sometime in-between, I have to attend to the garbage man who shows up at the door. I disconnect, usually, after half an hour, or whatever amount of time I desire to spend on-line before going off-line. If it's after half past twelve in the afternoon, I warm up the food preserved in the fridge and cooked by my mother the night before. The rest of the time, I watch some TV, play PS2, read Dickens' _Great Expectations_ -- I have only read 200 pages, which covers over about half of the book --, and near late evening I make tea for my mother, brother and myself. I keep awake until four in the early morning, unless I'm sick, reading this book I bought from a neighbour, who also happens to study in the same university as I do, but is a junior there, on Object Oriented Programming, working on my website, or something else. I go to sleep afterwards. And in this manner, the schedule iterates. >>> (Jim is the chap who restored the car, now a close friend. He's >>> putting new rear springs and shock-absorbers on at the moment, for [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > put his Ferrari baseball cap on specially, hasn't yet got a Mercedes > one. Great. SignatureAyaz Ahmed Khan Yours Forever in, | Webmaster, Cyberspace. | http://adic.netfirms.com/fastce/home.html > "Dr Robin Bignall" typed: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > breakfast -- which includes, almost always, a cup of tea made in hot > water, an half fried egg, and two toasts lubed-up with butter. I know that you want to improve your English, so I hope that you won't be offended when I say that the bit about the egg isn't entirely clear. Do you mean that you fry half an egg? Or do you fry a whole egg and just eat half of it? Or maybe you mean a lightly-fried egg? Margot >> "Dr Robin Bignall" typed: >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >Do you mean that you fry half an egg? Or do you fry a whole egg and just >eat half of it? Or maybe you mean a lightly-fried egg? Whatever, his writer's block has gone away. Maybe it's the lubed-up toast. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England "Dr Robin Bignall" typed: >>> "Dr Robin Bignall" typed: >>> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > Whatever, his writer's block has gone away. Maybe it's the lubed-up > toast. Yes. My writer's block has, somewhat, vanished. Okay. I admit I was lazy the time I used _lubed-up_ instead of _buttered toasts_. I should have looked in the dictionary. SignatureAyaz Ahmed Khan Yours Forever in, | Webmaster, Cyberspace. | http://adic.netfirms.com/fastce/home.html "Margot" typed: >> "Dr Robin Bignall" typed: >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > a whole egg and just eat half of it? Or maybe you mean a > lightly-fried egg? No, Margot. I only fry one side of the egg. During the frying process, I don't flip over the egg -- otherwise, it would be full-fried. So, when I serve the egg in a plate, it is fried only from one side -- the side that was in contact with the frying pan. That's what I call an half-fried egg. I found this picture of two half-fried eggs lying adjacent to each other. Look at the right-most picture, which is how an half-fried egg looks like in the following link: http://www.etaleem.com/channels/food/RecipeDisplay.asp?mainid=1 SignatureAyaz Ahmed Khan Yours Forever in, | Webmaster, Cyberspace. | http://adic.netfirms.com/fastce/home.html > "Margot" typed: > [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > http://www.etaleem.com/channels/food/RecipeDisplay.asp?mainid=1 In the US, frying just the one side would be "Sunny side up". "Bill Schnakenberg" typed: > "Ayaz Ahmed Khan" typed: > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] >> > In the US, frying just the one side would be "Sunny side up". Do people living in the US have fried eggs for breakfast? SignatureAyaz Ahmed Khan Yours Forever in, | Webmaster, Cyberspace. | http://adic.netfirms.com/fastce/home.html > "Bill Schnakenberg" typed: > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > Do people living in the US have fried eggs for breakfast? Of course. In fact, fried eggs are a breakfast food which is rarely eaten at other meals. There are various types of fried egg: "sunny-side up," "over easy," "over well" (sometimes called "over hard"), and fried inside a hole cut in a slice of bread. Then there are scrambled eggs, and poached eggs, and omelets, and soft-boiled.eggs. It's possible some people eat hard-boiled eggs at breakfast also, but it doesn't strike me as a breakfast dish. For my part, I prefer scrambled eggs or omelets for breakfast. SignatureRaymond S. Wise Minneapolis, Minnesota USA E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com "Raymond S. Wise" typed: >> "Bill Schnakenberg" typed: >> [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > breakfast also, but it doesn't strike me as a breakfast dish. For my > part, I prefer scrambled eggs or omelets for breakfast. Oh. We eat omelets on Sundays, when my father makes them for breakfast. Rest of the week, we prefer half-fried or sunny-side up eggs. SignatureAyaz Ahmed Khan Yours Forever in, | Webmaster, Cyberspace. | http://adic.netfirms.com/fastce/home.html > > "Bill Schnakenberg" typed: > > [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > Of course. In fact, fried eggs are a breakfast food which is rarely eaten at > other meals. Many restaurants in North America have on their menus "All day breakfast" so you can eat breakfast at any time of the day, although, I always decline the 'fries' as I don't like potato with a breakfast, they seem out of place. > There are various types of fried egg: "sunny-side up," "over > easy," "over well" (sometimes called "over hard"), and fried inside a hole [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com > > > "Bill Schnakenberg" typed: > > > [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > so you can eat breakfast at any time of the day, although, I always decline > the 'fries' as I don't like potato with a breakfast, they seem out of place. I have often enjoyed eating a breakfast at such a restaurant for lunch or dinner. I would not eat french fries or steak fries with such a meal, but I would eat home fries or hash browns, both of which do indeed seem like breakfast foods to me. And at home I will on occasion eat cereal for lunch or dinner. However, it is very much a breakfast-type meal: I would accompany it with breakfast items only. I would not, for example, drink pop with cereal: It would have to be orange juice or coffee or tea. I would also not follow the meal with a dessert, although I might eat a donut at the same time as I eat the cereal. > > There are various types of fried egg: "sunny-side up," "over > > easy," "over well" (sometimes called "over hard"), and fried inside a hole > > cut in a slice of bread. Then there are scrambled eggs, and poached eggs, > > and omelets, and soft-boiled.eggs. It's possible some people eat hard-boiled > > eggs at breakfast also, but it doesn't strike me as a breakfast dish. For my > > part, I prefer scrambled eggs or omelets for breakfast. SignatureRaymond S. Wise Minneapolis, Minnesota USA E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com >That's not uncommon. More age, experience and knowledge will probably >change that. But if you compare the vastly different styles of Graham [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Jackal" got published, and then made into a successful movie with James Fox >(I think it was) 'Twas his older brother Edward Fox. >as The Jackal - a paid assassin out to murder President de >Gaulle. Provided it is competently done, getting a first novel published is >probably like selling. You don't necessarily have to have a better product >than anyone else, just more persistence. SignaturePeter Duncanson UK (posting from a.e.u) > But >>remember that Freddy Forsythe had over 30 rejections before "Day of the >>Jackal" got published, and then made into a successful movie with James Fox >>(I think it was) > >'Twas his older brother Edward Fox. Yes, of course. James is in "The Russia House". Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England That is very true. Most students are inadequate in their command of and use of grammar. This inadequacy makes them so fearful that they are not able to present ideas for fear of being "caught" in a mistake. Surely in 30 years or so you have seen this happen. Hank > > Castiglione contends that "writing is a kind of speech." I think that it > > would depend on your audience. Some writing and speaking are lost on some [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Larry Trask > larryt@sussex.ac.uk >I think it's a big mistake to suppose that written English is merely a >transcription of spoken English. It isn't. If you try to write >merely by transcribing your ordinary speech, you will produce some >truly awful writing. It depends on what you mean by "ordinary speech", and how clear and precise that is with any given person. >Written English is something very different from spoken English, and >it has its own structures, requirements and conventions. Modeling >writing on speech is no more sensible than modeling speech on writing. As the post after yours suggests, it depends entirely on your audience and the ability of the speaker or writer. I spent 15 years occasionally running, or speaking on, seminars for international audiences whose understanding of English was sometimes so varied that we had to use simultaneous translation to UN standards. The English that I used on those was far simpler than that which I use in English newsgroups, but it has to be done with skill, for a foreigner can tell when you are talking down to him, and resent it. I write pretty much as I speak, and I do not modify my speech to suit the audience if I'm speaking to native English users. It used to lead to some slight confusion sometimes with idioms in American bars and hotels, or with ESL people who had learned their English from American sources, but seldom with an educated American audience. I suspect that if one tries to be too scholarly in writing, when one is not clever enough to do it in speech at the drop of a hat in front of an audience, the phoniness will show through. I've met many people whose writing skills were excellent, but who clammed up in front of an audience of strangers, and far, far more people who could talk the hind legs off a donkey but who could not write even a simple business letter. If they had simply tried writing a first draft just as they spoke, and then editing it, they would probably have made a fair job of it. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England I agree that writing is not simply a transcription of speaking. It can be, but would be confusing. What is present while speaking i.e. gestures, postures, hand positions, and facial expressions, would not be present in writing unless they were included in dialog or stage directions or the like. Hartwell considered native speakers of a language innately accurate in grammar rules even though they couldn't delineate the rules. Hank > >I think it's a big mistake to suppose that written English is merely a > >transcription of spoken English. It isn't. If you try to write [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > they spoke, and then editing it, they would probably have made a fair job > of it. [Hank's reply put at bottom] >> >I think it's a big mistake to suppose that written English is merely a >> >transcription of spoken English. It isn't. If you try to write [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] >postures, hand positions, and facial expressions, would not be present in >writing unless they were included in dialog or stage directions or the like. I suggest that you read a book or two by George V Higgins, a very good (IMO) American writer. He often writes as though the reader is a fly on the wall, simply listening in on conversations between people the reader has no prior knowledge of. Gradually, the reader learns about the characters. I think it's an excellent technique, but many might not agree. >Hartwell considered native speakers of a language innately accurate in >grammar rules even though they couldn't delineate the rules. The second part of that sentence applies to me, but not the 'innately accurate' bit! I just noticed that I used a singular when I should have used a plural in a post I made earlier. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England > I've been semi-lurking here for a while and I thought I'd come in with a bit > of flame-bait... In case anyone thinks it was a drive-by, by the way, thanks for all the responses, which I read with interest but didn't have anything useful to add to! Danny |
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