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Muleskinner

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MC - 01 Jan 2004 16:16 GMT
It took me a while to find out what "muleskinner" means (mule driver)
but I don't seem to have found any reliable info on the etymology... can
anyone shed light?
david56 - 01 Jan 2004 18:24 GMT
copeSP@AMZAPca.inter.net spake thus:

> It took me a while to find out what "muleskinner" means (mule driver)
> but I don't seem to have found any reliable info on the etymology... can
> anyone shed light?

The Little Big Man, as portrayed by Dustin Hoffman, was taken by
General Custer for a Mule Skinner.  I always assumed it meant a
person who skinned mules, but I see I am also wrong.  Mind, we don't
see a lot of mules in these parts.

Signature

David
=====

Dena Jo - 01 Jan 2004 18:31 GMT
> The Little Big Man, as portrayed by Dustin Hoffman, was taken by
> General Custer for a Mule Skinner.  I always assumed it meant a
> person who skinned mules, but I see I am also wrong.  Mind, we don't
> see a lot of mules in these parts.

If it's any comfort, I always assumed it was well.

(During my college years, Little Big Man was my favorite movie.)

Signature

Dena Jo

Delete "delete.this.for.email" for email.

John Dean - 02 Jan 2004 02:42 GMT
> copeSP@AMZAPca.inter.net spake thus:
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> person who skinned mules, but I see I am also wrong.  Mind, we don't
> see a lot of mules in these parts.

Betcha remember 'Muleskinner Blues' - a surprise hit in the 50s or 60s for
people whose name I don't remember and a staple of folk & country singers
from time immoral. Lyrics vary but are usually on the lines of :

Good morning captain
Good morning to you son
Do you need another muleskinner
Out on your border run

I'm an old muleskinner
Up from California way
I can make any mule listen
And I won't accept your pay

Hey, litle water boy
Bring your buck-buck-bucket round
If you don't like your job
You can put your water bucket down

And Betcha remember Mule Train too:

Mule train!! (Hyah, hyah) <sound of whip cracking twice>
Mule train!!
Clippety cloppin' over hill and plain
Seems as how they never stop, clippety clop, clippety clop
Clippety, clippety, clippety, clippety, clippety cloppin' along

etc etc.

Remember the guy who made his fortune doing Mule Train on the Club Circuit
with occasional forays onto TV? He made the whip noises by hitting himself
on the head with a waiter's metal tray (and a very authentic whiplash sound
it made) until by the last chorus he was actually keeping time by battering
himself on the head with the tray. A genius.
--
John Dean
Oxford
De-frag to reply
david56 - 02 Jan 2004 10:31 GMT
john-dean@frag.lineone.net spake thus:

> > copeSP@AMZAPca.inter.net spake thus:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>
> etc etc.

Of course

> Remember the guy who made his fortune doing Mule Train on the Club Circuit
> with occasional forays onto TV? He made the whip noises by hitting himself
> on the head with a waiter's metal tray (and a very authentic whiplash sound
> it made) until by the last chorus he was actually keeping time by battering
> himself on the head with the tray. A genius.

Indeed.  I think he must have been on Opportunity Knocks (with Paula
Yates' dad).  I'm sorry to relate that not only do I remember the
tea-tray head hitting Mule Train act, but whenever we hear Mule
Train, we are constrained by some inner demon to act out the hitting
of the head with an imaginary tea tray.

Signature

David
=====

Thomas F. Howald - 02 Jan 2004 11:43 GMT
> > copeSP@AMZAPca.inter.net spake thus:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> If you don't like your job
> You can put your water bucket down

I have a copy of that. Seems to be from an LP named "Sweethearts Of
The Rodeo". Don't know the artist, but is a female voice.

> And Betcha remember Mule Train too:

Just love that one. Frankie Laine, Tennessee Ernie Ford, Boxcar Willie,
The Maddox Brothers an Rose, Jimmie Rodgers and even Spike Jones with
Chinese Mule Train, they all did it! American Culture at it's best.

> Mule train!! (Hyah, hyah) <sound of whip cracking twice>
> Mule train!!
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> etc etc.

There's a pluck of chew tobbaco for a rancher (sometimes a miner)
in corona
a guitar for a cowboy out in Arizona
a dress of calico for a pretty navajo...
Git along mule, git along...

> Remember the guy who made his fortune doing Mule Train on the Club Circuit
> with occasional forays onto TV? He made the whip noises by hitting himself
> on the head with a waiter's metal tray (and a very authentic whiplash sound
> it made) until by the last chorus he was actually keeping time by battering
> himself on the head with the tray. A genius.

Would love to have seen that one!

Thomas F. Howald
Pat Durkin - 02 Jan 2004 18:11 GMT
> > > copeSP@AMZAPca.inter.net spake thus:
> > >
> > >> It took me a while to find out what "muleskinner" means (mule driver)
> > >> but I don't seem to have found any reliable info on the etymology...
> > >> can anyone shed light?

> I have a copy of that. Seems to be from an LP named "Sweethearts Of
> The Rodeo". Don't know the artist, but is a female voice.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> There's a pluck of chew tobbaco for a rancher (sometimes a miner)
> in corona

My old folks called it a "plug"

> a guitar for a cowboy out in Arizona
> a dress of calico for a pretty navajo...
> Git along mule, git along...
Sara Moffat Lorimer - 01 Jan 2004 18:46 GMT
> It took me a while to find out what "muleskinner" means (mule driver)
> but I don't seem to have found any reliable info on the etymology... can
> anyone shed light?

Isn't a muleskinner a person who uses mules to skin animals? I have a
dim recollection of reading in a book about the American frontier that
this was so, with the muleskinners skinning buffalo. The men were
particularly filthy, even by the standards of the time, and there were
prostitutes who specialized in servicing them.

I can't think what the book was, though, and dictionaries are not
backing me up. Perhaps it was all a dream.

Signature

SML

ess el five six zero at columbia dot edu  <http://pirate-women.com>

david56 - 01 Jan 2004 19:08 GMT
sl560_delete_this_@columbia.edu spake thus:

> > It took me a while to find out what "muleskinner" means (mule driver)
> > but I don't seem to have found any reliable info on the etymology... can
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> I can't think what the book was, though, and dictionaries are not
> backing me up. Perhaps it was all a dream.

That sounds fairly likely.  There can't really be a living in
skinning mules, but I can imagine using mules to drag the hide off a
buffalo.

Signature

David
=====

MC - 01 Jan 2004 19:16 GMT
> sl560_delete_this_@columbia.edu spake thus:
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> skinning mules, but I can imagine using mules to drag the hide off a
> buffalo.

I just Googled and came up with this:

http://historytogo.utah.gov/bullwacking.html

From which I quote:

Deep in the footnotes to history, however, are the also-rans in frontier
communities, the breed of plains men known familiarly as "teamsters,"
who were right at ground level. In fact, in Brigham Young's day,
teamsters had a lock on the lowest rung of the social ladder‹a notch or
so below buffalo skinners. Teamsters included bullwhackers and
muleskinners, men who could curse their animals in a vile stream of
profanity for ten minutes straight without repeating themselves.

General James F. Rusling said of them, they are "red-shirted,
big-booted, brigand-looking ruffians, with the inseparable Bowie knife
and revolver buckled around their waists; they swing and crack their
great whips like fiends, and beat the poor oxen along." Poor oxen is
right. This unsung beast is now virtually an extinct species in America;
the castrated domesticated bull once reigned supreme by the thousands as
a draft animal, but now has been effectively pushed aside by the farm
tractor and pickup truck.

Bullwhackers were never in the mainstream of frontier life; as a group
it was probably the least literate of frontiersmen. There were, however,
exceptions. William Perkins, a young Canadian gold rusher writing in
1850, described his experience with a teamster in California this way:
"I had tethered my mules, built a fire and cooked my dinner and a tin of
coffee, stretched out on the grass enjoying a pipe, when I heard a loud
gee-whoa! Proceeding from an ox establishment, and soon as rough a
looking individual as I was myself, stopped his team under my oak tree,
set his cattle loose, came up and politely asked permission to make use
of the fire I had built. We camped together, and I found out he had been
a professor at Yale College and had left his wife and children in
Boston. He told me he made more in each trip of his ox cart than he
earned in a year with his professor's chair in Boston!"

And they were tough, these bullwhackers who toiled for $25 a month and
found. (Muleskinners earned $10 more.) Henry Pickering Walker in The
Wagonmasters told of one Joe Shelton, a Montana freighter, who was
hooked under the chin by a wild ox that carried him around the corral
several times before he was able to lift himself off. He was carried for
five days in a dead-axle wagon to a railroad and then by rail to Salt
Lake City for medical aid. He survived his ordeal and lived for another
sixteen years on ground-up food fed through a silver tube in his throat.
Donna Richoux - 01 Jan 2004 20:55 GMT
> sl560_delete_this_@columbia.edu spake thus:
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> skinning mules, but I can imagine using mules to drag the hide off a
> buffalo.

My dear friends, I am distressed to find how gruesome imaginations will
be. Muleskinners drove mules, teams of mules, hitched to wagons. Period.
They did not skin mules, in the sense of removing their hides. It was
just the name.

The origin of the name appears to be unknown.

I wondered briefly if there could be a connection between "skinner" and
"schooner," such as "prairie schooner" (the Conestoga wagon). However,
the DAE gives a better clue. Under "mule-skinner" are two definitions,
and the other is "a long whip for driving mules." They don't know which
term is older.

But under "skin" as a verb, DAE has a dozen completely different
meanings, and one of them is to beat -- in a gaming sense, from 1901 on.
So my best guess is that it meant to beat, in a more general physical
sense, earlier than that. The mule-skinners beat the mules with a whip,
that's no surprise.

Next: did cattle rustlers actually rustle, and did cowpunchers literally
punch cows in the nose?

Signature

Best -- Donna Richoux

Carter Jefferson - 01 Jan 2004 22:08 GMT
>> sl560_delete_this_@columbia.edu spake thus:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>Next: did cattle rustlers actually rustle, and did cowpunchers literally
>punch cows in the nose?

Below is part of an ad for a guy who puts on "living history" shows
for schools, and ran a wagon train in an Ohio bicentennial event last
summer. He seems to know what he's talking about.
<http://www.muleskinner.com/>

"'Tennessee' portrays a muleskinner- a very important historical
character prior to the railroads. He would haul goods from town to
town, earning a living on the haul bill. The term muleskinner means
someone who can 'skin' or outsmart/train a mule, which he used to pull
the wagons that hauled freight."

I must have learned as a child what a muleskinner was, since
I've always known. We used to see emaciated mules walking
along the highways in East Texas in the 1930s; my father told
me at the time that they had been turned loose by farmers who
had lost their farms because of the Depression. They must have
died by the thousands, because even though the better-off
farmers used tractors, plenty of the poor ones still used mules
to pull their plows. Many of the farmers didn't do much better
than  the mules. When FDR started the CCC camps, most of
their kids who signed up were in bad physical shape. The CCC
took care of them and fed them up so that they were able to
pass the Army physical when the draft started in 1940. But the
Army had switched from mules to trucks, so the mules just
died. I believe the Army's mountain troops still had a few during
WWII.

A mule is the sterile offspring of a male donkey and a female
horse. Like computers, they are smart, stubborn, and mean,
but when properly trained and fed they can do an immense
amount of work. It's been ages since I last saw one.

Carter

Carter Jefferson
carterj98@mindspring.com
http://carterj.homestead.com/
meirman - 02 Jan 2004 05:58 GMT
In alt.english.usage on Thu, 01 Jan 2004 22:08:25 GMT Carter Jefferson
<carterj98@mindspring.com> posted:

>Below is part of an ad for a guy who puts on "living history" shows
>for schools, and ran a wagon train in an Ohio bicentennial event last
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>died by the thousands, because even though the better-off
>farmers used tractors, plenty of the poor ones still used mules

An article I happened to read about the Empire State Building
mentioned how much of the work was still done by horses then.

I vaguely think they used mules in tunnels, such as the subway
construction and mines.

>to pull their plows. Many of the farmers didn't do much better

In 1971, I was driving through Mississippi and in the only major
sightseeing mistake I ever made, I didn't stop when I saw, I think, a
man ploughing with a mule.  He was fairly far back in the field, and
it was hard to look while I kept my eye on the two lane road, and I
was embarrassed to stop just because he only had a mule, and I was in
an incredible hurry to get to Natchez even though I couldn't possibly
get there on time.  But I should have stopped.  He was the only person
I saw in that stretch of road, and ten miles later, or ten years
later, I forget, it occurred to me that I could have stopped and asked
if I were on the right road to Natchez.    There had been no signs for
many miles, and I really might have been on the wrong road.

>than  the mules. When FDR started the CCC camps, most of
>their kids who signed up were in bad physical shape. The CCC
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>A mule is the sterile offspring of a male donkey and a female
>horse.

OTOH, the offspring of a female donkey and a male horse is called a
jitney, or a flournoy, or nembith, or something.

Like computers, they are smart, stubborn, and mean,
>but when properly trained and fed they can do an immense
>amount of work. It's been ages since I last saw one.
>
>Carter

s/ meirman    If you are emailing me please  
say if you are posting the same response.

Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years
            Indianapolis,   7 years
            Chicago,        6 years
            Brooklyn NY    12 years
            Baltimore      20 years
Murray Arnow - 02 Jan 2004 14:36 GMT
> OTOH, the offspring of a female donkey and a male horse is called a
> jitney, or a flournoy, or nembith, or something.

When I were a lad, on the farm, we called the creature a hinny.
Alan Illeman - 02 Jan 2004 16:39 GMT
> > OTOH, the offspring of a female donkey and a male horse is called a
> > jitney, or a flournoy, or nembith, or something.
>
> When I were a lad, on the farm, we called the creature a hinny.

COD5: Mule: Offspring of he-a.s & mare, or she-a.s & stallion, (hinny)
(donkey == a.s)
meirman - 02 Jan 2004 18:27 GMT
In alt.english.usage on Fri, 2 Jan 2004 11:39:07 -0500 "Alan Illeman"
<illemann@surfbest.net> posted:

>> > OTOH, the offspring of a female donkey and a male horse is called a
>> > jitney, or a flournoy, or nembith, or something.
>>
>> When I were a lad, on the farm, we called the creature a hinny.

Thanks.  That's what I had in mind.  I got the n and y right.

>COD5: Mule: Offspring of he-a.s & mare, or she-a.s & stallion, (hinny)
>(donkey == a.s)

I don't think i understand the notation.  

s/ meirman    If you are emailing me please  
say if you are posting the same response.

Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years
            Indianapolis,   7 years
            Chicago,        6 years
            Brooklyn NY    12 years
            Baltimore      20 years
Alan Illeman - 02 Jan 2004 23:57 GMT
> In alt.english.usage on Fri, 2 Jan 2004 11:39:07 -0500 "Alan Illeman"
> <illemann@surfbest.net> posted:
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>              Brooklyn NY    12 years
>              Baltimore      20 years

What don't you understand ?
COD5 ? Concise Oxford Dictionary, 5th Edition

BTW how could you have been born (west of Pittsburgh Pa.)
at age 10 years ?
meirman - 04 Jan 2004 03:33 GMT
In alt.english.usage on Fri, 2 Jan 2004 18:57:18 -0500 "Alan Illeman"
<illemann@surfbest.net> posted:

>> In alt.english.usage on Fri, 2 Jan 2004 11:39:07 -0500 "Alan Illeman"
>> <illemann@surfbest.net> posted:
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
>What don't you understand ?

The parts in parentheses.

>COD5 ? Concise Oxford Dictionary, 5th Edition
>
>BTW how could you have been born (west of Pittsburgh Pa.)
>at age 10 years ?

It was a very difficult delivery.   I have a sister who is 4 months
younger than I am, too.

OK, step-sister.

s/ meirman    If you are emailing me please  
say if you are posting the same response.

Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years
            Indianapolis,   7 years
            Chicago,        6 years
            Brooklyn NY    12 years
            Baltimore      20 years
Alan Illeman - 04 Jan 2004 13:17 GMT
> In alt.english.usage on Fri, 2 Jan 2004 18:57:18 -0500 "Alan Illeman"
> <illemann@surfbest.net> posted:
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> >>
> >> I don't think i understand the notation.

hinny, n.  Offspring of she-a.s by stallion, cf. MULE  [f. L hinnus]

mule, n. 1. Offspring of he-a.s & mare, or (pop.) of she-a.s & stallion
   (prop. hinny), used as beast of draught & burden & noted for obstinacy;
   stupid or obstinate person; hybrid plant or annimal; mulecanary, cross
   between canary and other finch.
   2. Kind of spinning-machine ...

Abbreviations used in this dictionary:
'pop.'        'popular'
'prop.'        'proper(ly)'
'f.'         'from'
'L'        'Latin'

Does this answer your question ?
John Dean - 02 Jan 2004 19:35 GMT
> In alt.english.usage on Thu, 01 Jan 2004 22:08:25 GMT Carter Jefferson
> <carterj98@mindspring.com> posted:
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> An article I happened to read about the Empire State Building
> mentioned how much of the work was still done by horses then.

The German Army in WW2 used a surprising amount of horseflesh. People assume
they were highly mechanised, what with the Blitzkrieg and the mighty Panzer,
but when you see newsreel footage of the German Army on the move, you'll see
horses pulling vehicles and artillery and horses ridden by regular soldiers.
A typical German Infantry Division had 12,000 men and 4,000 horses. The
Japanese Infantry had a similar man-to-horse ratio. It was the Brits who
were actually highly mechanised, having trucks and lorries in abundance to
transport the foot soldier.
--
John Dean
Oxford
De-frag to reply
MC - 02 Jan 2004 19:47 GMT
> It was the Brits who were actually highly mechanised, having trucks and lorries in abundance to
> transport the foot soldier.

What's the difference between a truck and a lorry?
Skitt - 02 Jan 2004 21:27 GMT
>> It was the Brits who were actually highly mechanised, having trucks
>> and lorries in abundance to transport the foot soldier.
>
> What's the difference between a truck and a lorry?

All lorries are trucks, but not all trucks are lorries.
Signature

Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/  

meirman - 02 Jan 2004 21:28 GMT
In alt.english.usage on Fri, 02 Jan 2004 14:47:03 -0500 MC
<copeSP@AMZAPca.inter.net> posted:

>> It was the Brits who were actually highly mechanised, having trucks and lorries in abundance to
>> transport the foot soldier.
>
>What's the difference between a truck and a lorry?

I used to know a girl named Lorry.

s/ meirman    If you are emailing me please  
say if you are posting the same response.

Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years
            Indianapolis,   7 years
            Chicago,        6 years
            Brooklyn NY    12 years
            Baltimore      20 years
mUs1Ka - 02 Jan 2004 22:09 GMT
> In alt.english.usage on Fri, 02 Jan 2004 14:47:03 -0500 MC
> <copeSP@AMZAPca.inter.net> posted:
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> I used to know a girl named Lorry.

Did she truck?
m.
MC - 02 Jan 2004 22:09 GMT
> > In alt.english.usage on Fri, 02 Jan 2004 14:47:03 -0500 MC
> > <copeSP@AMZAPca.inter.net> posted:
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> >
> Did she truck?

I heard she was a bit of a vanp.
mUs1Ka - 02 Jan 2004 22:26 GMT
>>> In alt.english.usage on Fri, 02 Jan 2004 14:47:03 -0500 MC
>>> <copeSP@AMZAPca.inter.net> posted:
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> I heard she was a bit of a vanp.

You missed a commer.
m.
Tony Cooper - 02 Jan 2004 23:08 GMT
>> In alt.english.usage on Fri, 02 Jan 2004 14:47:03 -0500 MC
>> <copeSP@AMZAPca.inter.net> posted:
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>>
>Did she truck?

I assume she was articulated if she did.
MC - 02 Jan 2004 23:15 GMT
> >> In alt.english.usage on Fri, 02 Jan 2004 14:47:03 -0500 MC
> >> <copeSP@AMZAPca.inter.net> posted:
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> I assume she was articulated if she did.

I wanted to trailer so I tractor.
Mike Lyle - 03 Jan 2004 13:42 GMT
> > It was the Brits who were actually highly mechanised, having trucks and lorries in abundance to
> > transport the foot soldier.
>
> What's the difference between a truck and a lorry?

Good question. In formal British usage, a truck is but one kind of
lorry. It has a bed with or without drop sides, and I think any
covering has to be of cloth. How this covered truck differs from a
van, I'm not at all sure: perhaps only in the nature of the covering;
but I'm pretty sure that a horse-drawn van could have a canvas tilt.

In my very limited experience, based only on one temporary job, people
distinguish trucks from artics (US semi-trailers?) even if the trailer
part of the articulated lorry is made exactly like the back of a
truck.

A Luton is a van whose cargo compartment extends over the driver's
cab.

I think I'm right in saying that even in Britain the word "truck" is
now displacing "lorry". In 1950s Australia I felt "lorry" was an
exotic Briticism.

Mike.
Frances Kemmish - 03 Jan 2004 14:16 GMT
>>>It was the Brits who were actually highly mechanised, having trucks and lorries in abundance to
>>>transport the foot soldier.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> van, I'm not at all sure: perhaps only in the nature of the covering;
> but I'm pretty sure that a horse-drawn van could have a canvas tilt.

My mother drove a vehicle for her work, which, over here, would have
been called a "pick-up"; she (and her employer) called it a truck. I
assumed that the essential truckness was its open back. It was still
called "the truck" when it had its metal canopy on.

Signature

Frances Kemmish
Production Manager
East Coast Youth Ballet
www.byramartscenter.com

Mark Brader - 03 Jan 2004 17:35 GMT
> My mother drove a vehicle for her work, which, over here, would have
> been called a "pick-up"; she (and her employer) called it a truck. ...

For me, "pickup" in this sense is short for "pickup truck".  I know
there are other people who consider pickups a separate class of
vehicle, though.  (And in New Zealand, I'm told, they're called
utes -- from "utility vehicle".  Australia too?  I forget.)
Signature

Mark Brader   |   "It is only a guess, of course.
msb@vex.net   |    I hope none of you ever finds out for certain."
Toronto       |            -- Insp. Grandpierre (Peter Stone, "Charade")

John Holmes - 04 Jan 2004 07:07 GMT
>> My mother drove a vehicle for her work, which, over here, would have
>> been called a "pick-up"; she (and her employer) called it a truck.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> vehicle, though.  (And in New Zealand, I'm told, they're called
> utes -- from "utility vehicle".  Australia too?  I forget.)

Yes, 'ute' is used here too, but we would distinguish between a ute and
a truck. A ute is based on an ordinary car design, like a station wagon
with no roof on the back part. The back has side panels that match the
front. In construction, it is based on a pressed floor-pan thingy,
rather than a true girder-like chassis with a tray (with or without
sides) mounted on it.

I get the impression that both types would be subsumed under "pickup" in
your terminology.

--
Regards
John
Bill Schnakenberg - 05 Jan 2004 15:43 GMT
>>>My mother drove a vehicle for her work, which, over here, would have
>>>been called a "pick-up"; she (and her employer) called it a truck.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> rather than a true girder-like chassis with a tray (with or without
> sides) mounted on it.

I remember the Chevrolet El Camino and Ford Ranchero back in the
late 50's. I don't remember a common name for the style, though.
We just called them by their model names, El Camino and Ranchero.
To me, a 'ute', or utility truck would be a pickup truck with
metal cabinets as the bed sides, like those used in the
electrical and plumbing trades.

> I get the impression that both types would be subsumed under "pickup" in
> your terminology.
John Holmes - 08 Jan 2004 11:18 GMT
>> Yes, 'ute' is used here too, but we would distinguish between a ute
>> and a truck. A ute is based on an ordinary car design, like a
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> metal cabinets as the bed sides, like those used in the
> electrical and plumbing trades.

I did once see a 1926(?) Rolls Royce in a configuration that looked very
like a ute (in the Australian sense). It was black, and had been
originally fitted out for use as an open hearse. I wonder whether the
hearse design might have been the inspiration for the ute, when people
found them useful for carrying all sorts of other things than coffins.

--
Regards
John
Mike Lyle - 03 Jan 2004 20:39 GMT
> >>>It was the Brits who were actually highly mechanised, having trucks and lorries in abundance to
> >>>transport the foot soldier.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> assumed that the essential truckness was its open back. It was still
> called "the truck" when it had its metal canopy on.

Ah, that's a ute, Sheila! ("Utility truck" in Aus.) In BrE, as in Am,
a "pick-up truck", generally shortened to "pick-up", but certainly
sometimes called a "truck". The removable metal or GRP hard top (a
typical independent make in Br is the Truckman Top) is a complication:
the vehicle remains a truck, not a van, presumably because the top is
removable, and because the cab is separate (aha! maybe *that's* the
difference between a van and a covered truck). In these gumbie parts,
the back door is usually a grille. I don't think a pick-up would ever
be called a "lorry", even though it's a truck.

An army lorry with hard seats in the back is a truck, or just "a
three-tonner".

My knowledge of the subject ceases here.

Mike.
M. J. Powell - 06 Jan 2004 19:22 GMT
>> > It was the Brits who were actually highly mechanised, having trucks
>> >and lorries in abundance to
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>van, I'm not at all sure: perhaps only in the nature of the covering;
>but I'm pretty sure that a horse-drawn van could have a canvas tilt.

Do you know where the name 'tilt' came from?

Mike
Signature

M.J.Powell

Dr Robin Bignall - 07 Jan 2004 00:00 GMT
>>> > It was the Brits who were actually highly mechanised, having trucks
>>> >and lorries in abundance to
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>Do you know where the name 'tilt' came from?

At a  guess, pinball machines.

Signature

wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall

Quiet part of Hertfordshire
England

M. J. Powell - 07 Jan 2004 11:46 GMT
>>>> > It was the Brits who were actually highly mechanised, having trucks
>>>> >and lorries in abundance to
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>>
>At a  guess, pinball machines.

Much more interesting. When Nelsonian sailors rowed officers ashore the
piece of canvas the officers used to keep the spray off was called a
'tilt'.

Mike
Signature

M.J.Powell

John Dean - 07 Jan 2004 16:27 GMT
>>>>>> It was the Brits who were actually highly mechanised, having
>>>>>> trucks and lorries in abundance to
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> the piece of canvas the officers used to keep the spray off was
> called a 'tilt'.

In use long before Nelson.  << 1611 Middleton & Dekker Roaring Girl iv. ii,
A boat, with a tilt over it. >> (OED)
--
John Dean
Oxford
De-frag to reply
M. J. Powell - 07 Jan 2004 17:33 GMT
>>>>>>> It was the Brits who were actually highly mechanised, having
>>>>>>> trucks and lorries in abundance to
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>In use long before Nelson.  << 1611 Middleton & Dekker Roaring Girl iv. ii,
>A boat, with a tilt over it. >> (OED)

A canvas cover? I must dig out my OED from underneath all the books.

Mike
Signature

M.J.Powell

Dr Robin Bignall - 03 Jan 2004 16:23 GMT
>> In alt.english.usage on Thu, 01 Jan 2004 22:08:25 GMT Carter Jefferson
>> <carterj98@mindspring.com> posted:
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>were actually highly mechanised, having trucks and lorries in abundance to
>transport the foot soldier.

And the Americans.

Signature

wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall

Quiet part of Hertfordshire
England

dcw - 08 Jan 2004 15:45 GMT
>OTOH, the offspring of a female donkey and a male horse is called a
>jitney, or a flournoy, or nembith, or something.

"Hinny" is the word you're groping for, I think.

    David
tomcatpolka@yaNOSPAMhoo.com - 02 Jan 2004 01:35 GMT
> My dear friends, I am distressed to find how gruesome imaginations will
> be. Muleskinners drove mules, teams of mules, hitched to wagons. Period.
> They did not skin mules, in the sense of removing their hides. It was
> just the name.

My opinion is that mules don't pull wagons, but are pack animals, and the
art of muleskinning is in precisely loading the pack so the mule's skin
isn't rubbed off halfway down the trail (you have to kill the mule and dump
the goods). Anyone who has hiked with a backpack will appreciate the art.
MC - 02 Jan 2004 02:22 GMT
> > My dear friends, I am distressed to find how gruesome imaginations will
> > be. Muleskinners drove mules, teams of mules, hitched to wagons. Period.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> isn't rubbed off halfway down the trail (you have to kill the mule and dump
> the goods). Anyone who has hiked with a backpack will appreciate the art.

Well.. .ahem... the mules in this picture might disagree!

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~rhio/WagnTrain.htm
Carter Jefferson - 02 Jan 2004 02:54 GMT
>> > My dear friends, I am distressed to find how gruesome imaginations will
>> > be. Muleskinners drove mules, teams of mules, hitched to wagons. Period.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~rhio/WagnTrain.htm

And have you never heard of "Twenty mule team Borax"?

Carter Jefferson
carterj98@mindspring.com
http://carterj.homestead.com/
tomcatpolka@yaNOSPAMhoo.com - 02 Jan 2004 03:59 GMT
In alt.usage.english Carter Jefferson <carterj98@mindspring.com> wrote:

>>Well.. .ahem... the mules in this picture might disagree!
>>
>>http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~rhio/WagnTrain.htm

> And have you never heard of "Twenty mule team Borax"?

Sure, you can substitute mules for horses, and even dogs will pull a cart,
but for carrying a miner's or a lumberjack's equipment into the wilderness,
nothing beats a mule - that's why muleskinners were paid $10 more. You have
to balance everything just right, else the mule's skin gets worn and he
starts bleeding, and there is no first aid in the wilderness. Every
morning, as foodstuffs are removed, the packs must be readjusted. Anyway
it's just something I remembered from a western, I have no facts to back it up.
meirman - 02 Jan 2004 05:13 GMT
In alt.english.usage on 2 Jan 2004 03:59:26 GMT
tomcatpolka@yaNOSPAMhoo.com posted:

>In alt.usage.english Carter Jefferson <carterj98@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>morning, as foodstuffs are removed, the packs must be readjusted. Anyway
>it's just something I remembered from a western, I have no facts to back it up.

I don't know if you are right or not.

I saw years ago in a police tv show, that the proper way to hold the
flashlight is at arm's length, to the side of your body, so that when
the bad guy shoots at you, he'll aim for near the flashlight.  This
sounds like a good plan to me, but I've never seen a cop on another
cop show do it.  I've never seen a real cop on COPS do it, although
it's not usually pitch black where they are, if only because of the tv
cameras.   So is there any truth in it or not.  Do we have any cops on
this list?

s/ meirman    If you are emailing me please  
say if you are posting the same response.

Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years
            Indianapolis,   7 years
            Chicago,        6 years
            Brooklyn NY    12 years
            Baltimore      20 years
MC - 02 Jan 2004 06:59 GMT
> I saw years ago in a police tv show, that the proper way to hold the
> flashlight is at arm's length, to the side of your body, so that when
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> cameras.   So is there any truth in it or not.  Do we have any cops on
> this list?

I'm not a cop & I don'tr even play one on TV but I think the usual way
is to use a fairly large Maglite-type flashlight and hold it rather like
you would a javelin, but a bit lower, just above shoulder-height -- that
way it can double as a club.
John Dean - 02 Jan 2004 19:07 GMT
>> I saw years ago in a police tv show, that the proper way to hold the
>> flashlight is at arm's length, to the side of your body, so that when
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> like you would a javelin, but a bit lower, just above shoulder-height
> -- that way it can double as a club.

I've seen movie cops do a neat thing where they cross their wrists so a gun
in one hand is pointing down the beam of the torch from the other. Saves
time when you have to pull the trigger.
--
John Dean
Oxford
De-frag to reply
Mike Lyle - 03 Jan 2004 13:29 GMT
> >> I saw years ago in a police tv show, that the proper way to hold the
> >> flashlight is at arm's length, to the side of your body, so that when
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> in one hand is pointing down the beam of the torch from the other. Saves
> time when you have to pull the trigger.

My maternal grandfather used to shoot possums by catching their eyes
in a torch held in one hand, and firing a shotgun held in his right
and aimed by instinct. Seriously macho, my Grandpa.

Mike.
meirman - 04 Jan 2004 03:33 GMT
In alt.english.usage on 3 Jan 2004 05:29:28 -0800
mike_lyle_uk@yahoo.co.uk (Mike Lyle) posted:

>> >> I saw years ago in a police tv show, that the proper way to hold the
>> >> flashlight is at arm's length, to the side of your body, so that when
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>in a torch held in one hand, and firing a shotgun held in his right
>and aimed by instinct. Seriously macho, my Grandpa.

But he was also maternal.   Hermaphroditic, perhaps.

>Mike.

s/ meirman    If you are emailing me please  
say if you are posting the same response.

Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years
            Indianapolis,   7 years
            Chicago,        6 years
            Brooklyn NY    12 years
            Baltimore      20 years
Alan Illeman - 04 Jan 2004 13:24 GMT
> In alt.english.usage on 3 Jan 2004 05:29:28 -0800
> mike_lyle_uk@yahoo.co.uk (Mike Lyle) posted:
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> But he was also maternal.   Hermaphroditic, perhaps.

You're on dangerous ground here, as there's no evidence his grandfather
was bisexual.
Mike Lyle - 04 Jan 2004 14:36 GMT
> In alt.english.usage on 3 Jan 2004 05:29:28 -0800
> mike_lyle_uk@yahoo.co.uk (Mike Lyle) posted:

[...]
> >My maternal grandfather used to shoot possums by catching their eyes
> >in a torch held in one hand, and firing a shotgun held in his right
> >and aimed by instinct. Seriously macho, my Grandpa.
>
> But he was also maternal.   Hermaphroditic, perhaps.

Like all good bushmen he had his nurturing side!

Mike.
Dr Robin Bignall - 02 Jan 2004 13:04 GMT
>In alt.english.usage on 2 Jan 2004 03:59:26 GMT
>tomcatpolka@yaNOSPAMhoo.com posted:
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>cameras.   So is there any truth in it or not.  Do we have any cops on
>this list?

Take a look at the movie "Seven". Two cops were retained as advisors to
that film to ensure that Brad Pitt and Morgan Freeman held their guns and
torches in the correct fashion. I seem to recall that when they entered a
room to search it they held the torches high above their heads, shining
downwards.

Signature

wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall

Quiet part of Hertfordshire
England

Dr Robin Bignall - 02 Jan 2004 13:06 GMT
>> > My dear friends, I am distressed to find how gruesome imaginations will
>> > be. Muleskinners drove mules, teams of mules, hitched to wagons. Period.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~rhio/WagnTrain.htm

Is a mule the same animal as a burro?

Signature

wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall

Quiet part of Hertfordshire
England

Dena Jo - 02 Jan 2004 16:33 GMT
> Is a mule the same animal as a burro?

A burro's a donkey.

Signature

Dena Jo

Delete "delete.this.for.email" for email.

Cece - 02 Jan 2004 21:52 GMT
> Is a mule the same animal as a burro?

A burro is a donkey.  A mule is by a jack out of a mare.  A hinny is
by a stallion out of a jenny.

Cece
Donna Richoux - 02 Jan 2004 16:34 GMT
> > > My dear friends, I am distressed to find how gruesome imaginations will
> > > be. Muleskinners drove mules, teams of mules, hitched to wagons. Period.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~rhio/WagnTrain.htm

As this and other evidence shows, mules certainly were used as draft
animals. There is no doubt from people who *know* the word
"mule-skinner" that it means a teamster, one who drives mules to pull a
wagon.

But it is true that mules were also used as pack animals and as riding
animals -- just as horses have been, and after all, mules are half
horse. I suppose the mysterious "skinner" could derive from some other
involvement with mules (breeding and raising them?), but I'd like
evidence.

I don't find the slightest evidence that mules had more sensitive skin
than horses or anything else. In fact, they are praised for being very
hardy, such as:

    The mule has more than its share of
    admirable qualities. It is courageous and
    intelligent, hard of hide, sure of foot,
    sound of constitution and able to resist
    changes in climate and withstand thirst
    and hunger better than the horse.

Note, "hard of hide."

I doubt even that "skin" was used very often to refer to the hide of
mules. Which is why I think that, if truth were known, "mule-skinner"
might turn out to come from "schooner" or a Spanish word (esquina?) or
something else wildly unrelated to epidermis.

Signature

Best -- Donna Richoux


david56 - 02 Jan 2004 16:49 GMT
trio@euronet.nl spake thus:

> > > > My dear friends, I am distressed to find how gruesome imaginations will
> > > > be. Muleskinners drove mules, teams of mules, hitched to wagons. Period.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> "mule-skinner" that it means a teamster, one who drives mules to pull a
> wagon.

Depends what you mean by "know".  I've known the term since I first
saw Little Big Man;  from context I could ascertain that it was
clearly a profession.  But I had no clues that it might not be
literal, and nor, I suspect, would anybody else who had not given it
any thought.

How many other words have apparently reasonable literal meanings, but
in fact mean something completely different?

Signature

David
=====

John Dean - 02 Jan 2004 19:48 GMT
> How many other words have apparently reasonable literal meanings, but
> in fact mean something completely different?

Troll?
Spam?
--
John Dean
Oxford
De-frag to reply
david56 - 02 Jan 2004 20:16 GMT
john-dean@frag.lineone.net spake thus:

> > How many other words have apparently reasonable literal meanings, but
> > in fact mean something completely different?
>
> Troll?
> Spam?

But context tells you with those that the apparent literal meanings
are wrong.

Signature

David
=====

John Dean - 02 Jan 2004 23:58 GMT
> john-dean@frag.lineone.net spake thus:
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> But context tells you with those that the apparent literal meanings
> are wrong.

OK

Bushwhacker
Broncbuster
Cow-orker
Seashore (oh, sorry, that's a littoral meaning)
Carpetmuncher
Hashslinger
Bumboatwoman
Penpusher
--
John Dean
Oxford
De-frag to reply
david56 - 03 Jan 2004 10:35 GMT
john-dean@frag.lineone.net spake thus:

> > john-dean@frag.lineone.net spake thus:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Bushwhacker

whacking bushes - seems OK

> Broncbuster

breaking horses?

> Cow-orker

Hmmm

> Seashore (oh, sorry, that's a littoral meaning)
> Carpetmuncher

OK, that's got a different meaning from the literal, but it's
descriptive and understandable.

> Hashslinger

Provincial that I am, I don't know what that means.

> Bumboatwoman

Bumboat has a reasonable etymology involving the appearance of
buttocks.

> Penpusher

One who pushes a pen.

I'm looking for something like "house painter" which actually means
house demolisher.

Signature

David
=====

John Dean - 03 Jan 2004 13:32 GMT
> I'm looking for something like "house painter" which actually means
> house demolisher.

Ah, you're looking for Herr H****r - three doors along and ask for Eva.
--
John Dean
Oxford
De-frag to reply
Mike Lyle - 03 Jan 2004 22:40 GMT
> > I'm looking for something like "house painter" which actually means
> > house demolisher.
>
> Ah, you're looking for Herr H****r - three doors along and ask for Eva.

As they used to say in Swansea during the war, "Oh, it's Jones the Spy
you're lookin for! Down the gwli, number three with the green back
gate."

Mike.
Odysseus - 04 Jan 2004 00:35 GMT
> john-dean@frag.lineone.net spake thus:
>
> > Hashslinger
>
> Provincial that I am, I don't know what that means.

A short-order cook, likely at a truck-stop or some similar establishment.

Signature

Odysseus

Skitt - 05 Jan 2004 23:39 GMT
>> john-dean@frag.lineone.net spake thus:

>>> Hashslinger
>>
>> Provincial that I am, I don't know what that means.
>>
> A short-order cook, likely at a truck-stop or some similar
> establishment.

That term is sometimes used also for a waitress at such a place.  She does
the actual slinging, to my mind.
Signature

Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/

Dr Robin Bignall - 03 Jan 2004 16:28 GMT
>How many other words have apparently reasonable literal meanings, but
>in fact mean something completely different?

College bicycle.

Signature

wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall

Quiet part of Hertfordshire
England

david56 - 03 Jan 2004 17:08 GMT
docrobin@ntlworld.com spake thus:

> >How many other words have apparently reasonable literal meanings, but
> >in fact mean something completely different?
>
> College bicycle.

Well, maybe, but a person is obviously not a bicycle, so one would
question it.  If it were college admissions officer, but it meant
college chaplain and everybody knew this, we'd be getting somewhere.

I still have nothing to compare with mule skinner - a perfectly
likely profession which means something different.

Signature

David
=====

Donna Richoux - 03 Jan 2004 17:54 GMT
> docrobin@ntlworld.com spake thus:
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> I still have nothing to compare with mule skinner - a perfectly
> likely profession which means something different.

See, you lose me on that last part. What are the multitude of uses for
the skins of mules with which you are so aware? Where was the market for
muleskins? Do you have anything made of muleskin in your house?

Not thinking of moleskin, are you? Not that I ever heard tell of a
specialist, a professional moleskinner.

Heck, beaver pelts had huge market for a few decades (the top hats of
Europe were made of the beaver skins of North America), and yet I never
heard of a beaverskinner. Fur trapper, yes.

Are we just speaking here of a short-lived childhood confusion, like the
"Handbook for Young Mothers" story?

Signature

Best -- Donna Richoux

Frances Kemmish - 03 Jan 2004 18:25 GMT
>>docrobin@ntlworld.com spake thus:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> the skins of mules with which you are so aware? Where was the market for
> muleskins? Do you have anything made of muleskin in your house?

Here's a few:
http://www.sirenashoes.com/mules/images/mules.gif

> Not thinking of moleskin, are you? Not that I ever heard tell of a
> specialist, a professional moleskinner.

For a long time, I thought that moleskin trousers were made from the
skins of unfortunate moles. I didn't enquire about the process of
producing them.

> Heck, beaver pelts had huge market for a few decades (the top hats of
> Europe were made of the beaver skins of North America), and yet I never
> heard of a beaverskinner. Fur trapper, yes.
>
> Are we just speaking here of a short-lived childhood confusion, like the
> "Handbook for Young Mothers" story?

Signature

Frances Kemmish
Production Manager
East Coast Youth Ballet
www.byramartscenter.com

Laura F Spira - 03 Jan 2004 18:39 GMT
[..]

> For a long time, I thought that moleskin trousers were made from the
> skins of unfortunate moles. I didn't enquire about the process of
> producing them.

I, too, believed this until quite recently. I associated the wearing of
moleskin trousers with quaint elderly rustics. What was the name of the
Kenneth Williams character who sang spoof folk songs in "Round the
Horne"? I'm sure there was a mole involved.

I was more than a little surprised when a friend announced that he had
bought a moleskin suit. It was not quite as furry as I'd imagined.

Oh dear, all together now: "I'm not a bat or a rat or a cat..."

Signature

Laura
(emulate St. George for email)

david56 - 03 Jan 2004 18:53 GMT
laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk spake thus:

> [..]
> >
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Kenneth Williams character who sang spoof folk songs in "Round the
> Horne"? I'm sure there was a mole involved.

Rambling Syd Rumpo.  For I will warble Tit Willow and jump Jim Crow.

Wikipedia has these memorable songs:

The Ballad of the Woggler's Mooly
D'Ye Ken Jim Pubes
Green Grow My Nadgers O!
The Black Grunger of Hounslow
The Ballad of the Young Cordwangler

Along with another regular, I've been collecting Round The Horne from
BBC7, but I don't recall any moles.

Signature

David
=====

Peter Duncanson - 03 Jan 2004 19:37 GMT
>laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk spake thus:
>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>Along with another regular, I've been collecting Round The Horne from
>BBC7, but I don't recall any moles.

From
http://www.johnbarber.com/rth.html
<quote>
Who could resist the charms of that 'walking slum', J Peasemould
Gruntfuttock; the heartstoppingly wonderful Dame Celia Molestrangler as
Fiona and the gutwrenchingly, ageing juvenile Binky Huckaback as Charles;
fiendish mastermind Chou En Ginsberg M.A. (Failed) and his common as muck
concubine Lotus Blossom; television's master of so few words Seamus Android
and cookery guru Daphne Whitethigh; that itinerant folk singer Rambling Syd
Rumpo and those two 'resting professionals' Julian and his friend Sandy.
</quote>
Signature

Peter Duncanson
UK
(posting from a.e.u)

david56 - 03 Jan 2004 21:10 GMT
mail@peterduncanson.net spake thus:

> >laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk spake thus:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> Rumpo and those two 'resting professionals' Julian and his friend Sandy.
> </quote>

Ah, indeed, there was a Molestrangler in RtH, but not associated with
Rambling Syd.  I am sometimes rather too literal - I only opened the
box in my brain marked "fake folk singer".

Signature

David
=====

mUs1Ka - 03 Jan 2004 19:41 GMT
> laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk spake thus:
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> The Black Grunger of Hounslow
> The Ballad of the Young Cordwangler

Not to forget "My Grandfather's Grunge".
m.
Don Aitken - 03 Jan 2004 22:15 GMT
>> laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk spake thus:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>>
>Not to forget "My Grandfather's Grunge".

I have a book ("Round the Horne" by Took and Feldman) published by
Woburn Press in 1973 which, in addition to seven scripts, with one
song each, also has "The Rambling Syd Rumpo Songbook", with a further
thirteen. They are all without titles, as broadcast. No moles in any
of them, though plenty of moulies.

Signature

Don Aitken

Mail to the addresses given in the headers is no longer being
read. To mail me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com".

Frances Kemmish - 03 Jan 2004 18:53 GMT
> [..]
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Kenneth Williams character who sang spoof folk songs in "Round the
> Horne"? I'm sure there was a mole involved.

I came across them first in a D H Lawrence story. I suppose I should
have known what it meant, since Lawrence came from the same part of the
country as I did.

I think that I only really found out what moleskin was when I bought
some for my daughter put on the toes of her pointe shoes.

> I was more than a little surprised when a friend announced that he had
> bought a moleskin suit. It was not quite as furry as I'd imagined.
>
> Oh dear, all together now: "I'm not a bat or a rat or a cat..."

That's just cruel.

Signature

Frances Kemmish
Production Manager
East Coast Youth Ballet
www.byramartscenter.com

Mike Lyle - 03 Jan 2004 23:00 GMT
> > [..]
> >
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> > I was more than a little surprised when a friend announced that he had
> > bought a moleskin suit. It was not quite as furry as I'd imagined.
[...]

Oh dear! The insularity of these people! Real Australian rum-drinking
national dress is moleskins and elastic sides (the boots, not the
trousers). I thought everybody knew that. (Moleskin pants are like
those sixties suede desert boots in looking better after a few years
of rough living.)

But I did once read a piece in the British quarterly *The Countryman*
about somebody who'd finally managed to amass the skins of enough
moles to have a moleskin waistcoat made. Not being a spoilsport, I
didn't write in to disabuse anybody.

And to forestall further puzzlement, the unique thing about the pelts
of moles is that, unlike the fur of cats, humans, and other
surface-dwellers, the hairs don't have a "lie", but stick up at
right-angles, so that the creatures can go backwards in their tunnels
without being rubbed up the wrong way. So I suspect that velveteen,
and maybe even corduroy, has sometimes been called "moleskin"; Richard
Jefferies associated velveteen jackets with gamekeepers.

Mike.
Donna Richoux - 03 Jan 2004 23:29 GMT
> But I did once read a piece in the British quarterly *The Countryman*
> about somebody who'd finally managed to amass the skins of enough
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> and maybe even corduroy, has sometimes been called "moleskin"; Richard
> Jefferies associated velveteen jackets with gamekeepers.

Everyone's having such a jolly time saying that moleskin isn't made from
moles, I feel like a party pooper to point out that it once was. As
usual, Merriam-Webster puts the oldest meaning first:

    Main Entry:        mole·skin  
    Date:      1668
    1 : the skin of the mole used as fur
    2 a : a heavy durable cotton fabric with a short
    thick velvety nap on one side

It's not like anyone chose the name of some mammal at random to name the
cotton cloth for.

I know we've had this conversation some time in the past. Catskin, too.
And this would argue *for* David's position -- if real moles and real
cats yielded useful skins, maybe then, theoretically, mules could have,
too. Except I never heard that they did.

Signature

Best -- Donna Richoux

Frances Kemmish - 03 Jan 2004 23:37 GMT
>>But I did once read a piece in the British quarterly *The Countryman*
>>about somebody who'd finally managed to amass the skins of enough
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> cats yielded useful skins, maybe then, theoretically, mules could have,
> too. Except I never heard that they did.

I would think that most animals with fur might yield usable skins: you
can make a coat out of your dalmations' coat, you can recline on a
bearskin rug, or buy a bag made from ponyskin. You can even find a pouch
made of human skin, if you must.

About the only skinning I've heard of that I wouldn't expect to be
literal is "skinflint"

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Frances Kemmish
Production Manager
East Coast Youth Ballet
www.byramartscenter.com

Skitt - 04 Jan 2004 00:37 GMT

> I would think that most animals with fur might yield usable skins: you
> can make a coat out of your dalmations'

Oy!  And this after several discussions, even.

> coat, you can recline on a
> bearskin rug, or buy a bag made from ponyskin. You can even find a
> pouch made of human skin, if you must.
>
> About the only skinning I've heard of that I wouldn't expect to be
> literal is "skinflint"
Signature

Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/  

Odysseus - 04 Jan 2004 00:39 GMT
> I would think that most animals with fur might yield usable skins: you
> can make a coat out of your dalmations' coat, you can recline on a
> bearskin rug, or buy a bag made from ponyskin. You can even find a pouch
> made of human skin, if you must.

Dalmatian, from Dalmatia. Sorry to interrupt, but the spelling
"dalmation" is a pet peeve of mine, so to speak.

Signature

Odysseus

Frances Kemmish - 06 Jan 2004 02:01 GMT
>>I would think that most animals with fur might yield usable skins: you
>>can make a coat out of your dalmations' coat, you can recline on a
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Dalmatian, from Dalmatia. Sorry to interrupt, but the spelling
> "dalmation" is a pet peeve of mine, so to speak.

Sorry about that; I hope it didn't peeve your pet too much.

Signature

Frances Kemmish
Production Manager
East Coast Youth Ballet
www.byramartscenter.com

Robert Bannister - 07 Jan 2004 00:06 GMT
>>I would think that most animals with fur might yield usable skins: you
>>can make a coat out of your dalmations' coat, you can recline on a
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Dalmatian, from Dalmatia. Sorry to interrupt, but the spelling
> "dalmation" is a pet peeve of mine, so to speak.

Do you like "accordian" music?

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Rob Bannister

Odysseus - 07 Jan 2004 09:42 GMT
> Do you like "accordian" music?

Only accompanying the harmoniam. As for the pianofarte, the less said
the better.

Signature

Odysseus

Mike Lyle - 07 Jan 2004 16:30 GMT
> > Do you like "accordian" music?
> >
> Only accompanying the harmoniam. As for the pianofarte, the less said
> the better.

But you'll agree, I imagine, that it's better than those ghastly
"original instruments" fartepianos. Da capo al fane.

Mike.
Raymond S. Wise - 04 Jan 2004 03:45 GMT
> > But I did once read a piece in the British quarterly *The Countryman*
> > about somebody who'd finally managed to amass the skins of enough
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> It's not like anyone chose the name of some mammal at random to name the
> cotton cloth for.

Interesting stuff. I looked up "moleskin" in *The Century Dictionary* (
www.century-dictionary.com ) and came up with the following:

"moleskin [...] --2.  A kind of fustian, double-twilled and extra strong,
and cropped before dyeing.  Compare _beaverteen,_ 2."

"fustian [...] I. _n._ 1[obsolete].  Formerly, a stout cloth, supposed to
have been of cotton or cotton and flax. [...]

"2. In present use, a stout twilled cotton fabric, especially that which has
a short nap, variously called _corduroy, moleskin, beaverteen, velveteen,
thickset,_ etc., according to the way in which it is finished.  See
_pillow._ [...]"

"beaverteen [...], _n._  [< _beaver_1 + _-teen,_ after _velveteen._]  1.  A
cotton twilled fabric in which the warp is drawn up into loops, forming a
pile, which is left uncut.--2.  A strong cotton twilled fabric for men's
wear.  It is a kind of smooth fustian, shorn after being dyed.  If shorn
before dyeing, it is called _moleskin._ _E. H. Knight._"

> I know we've had this conversation some time in the past. Catskin, too.
> And this would argue *for* David's position -- if real moles and real
> cats yielded useful skins, maybe then, theoretically, mules could have,
> too. Except I never heard that they did.

Signature

Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA

E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com

Mike Lyle - 04 Jan 2004 14:32 GMT
[...]
> > And to forestall further puzzlement, the unique thing about the pelts
> > of moles is that, unlike the fur of cats, humans, and other
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> It's not like anyone chose the name of some mammal at random to name the
> cotton cloth for.
[...]

No, they didn't: see my remarks above about the peculiar quality of a
mole's pelt.

But OED1 tells us (1903) that the king had started a brief craze for
waistcoats made out of the skins of real mouldiwarps.

OED1 has the 1668 example, too. But I find it curious that there
"Mole-skin" is listed between "Bare-neck'd Ladies, Patches" and
"Spanish Paper". This last is not defined in the Dictionary as far as
I can tell, but I wonder if it was something like a patch, in its
sense of a sort of sticking-plaster used to cover blemishes on the
skin, or conversely an imitation beauty-spot (see Swift et al.) The
excerpt is quite difficult out of its context, but it seems to refer
to the taxation of "deceptive" beauty products; so I'm tempted to
wonder if the mole-skin referred to is in fact *not* a fur but perhaps
another kind of cosmetic "patch" -- a skin for moles, not the skin of
a mole.

Mike.
david56 - 04 Jan 2004 15:02 GMT
trio@euronet.nl spake thus:

> I know we've had this conversation some time in the past. Catskin, too.
> And this would argue *for* David's position -- if real moles and real
> cats yielded useful skins, maybe then, theoretically, mules could have,
> too. Except I never heard that they did.

What about catgut, used for violin strings?  That satisfies my
search.  It sounds perfectly possible, but the strings are actually
made from sheep gut.

Signature

David
=====

Robert Bannister - 04 Jan 2004 01:17 GMT
> And to forestall further puzzlement, the unique thing about the pelts
> of moles is that, unlike the fur of cats, humans, and other
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> and maybe even corduroy, has sometimes been called "moleskin"; Richard
> Jefferies associated velveteen jackets with gamekeepers.

For many years, until fur went out of fashion, my father died moleskins
which were made up into waistcoats, stoles and even full-length fur coats.

Signature

Rob Bannister

Skitt - 04 Jan 2004 01:20 GMT

>> And to forestall further puzzlement, the unique thing about the pelts
>> of moles is that, unlike the fur of cats, humans, and other
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> For many years, until fur went out of fashion, my father died

He what?

> moleskins which were made up into waistcoats, stoles and even
> full-length fur coats.
Signature

Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/  

Robert Bannister - 05 Jan 2004 01:00 GMT
>  
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> He what?

Well, he's dead now. Y?

Signature

Rob Bannister

Laura F Spira - 04 Jan 2004 14:59 GMT
>>>[..]
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> those sixties suede desert boots in looking better after a few years
> of rough living.)

That makes sense: my moleskin-clad friend has lived in, and is very fond
of, Australia.

> But I did once read a piece in the British quarterly *The Countryman*
> about somebody who'd finally managed to amass the skins of enough
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> right-angles, so that the creatures can go backwards in their tunnels
> without being rubbed up the wrong way.

I'm sceptical about this: what about rabbits? Don't they ever reverse?

So I suspect that velveteen,
> and maybe even corduroy, has sometimes been called "moleskin"; Richard
> Jefferies associated velveteen jackets with gamekeepers.

Am I missing something here? Why would gamekeepers want to wear clothes
like moles' coats?

Signature

Laura
(emulate St. George for email)

Mike Lyle - 05 Jan 2004 15:10 GMT
[...]
> > And to forestall further puzzlement, the unique thing about the pelts
> > of moles is that, unlike the fur of cats, humans, and other
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> I'm sceptical about this: what about rabbits? Don't they ever reverse?

By all means retain your scepticism: it is, after all, often by
challenging received wisdom that great advances are made. Who knows
but that we may even now be on the brink of a dramatic rewriting of
the natural history text-books? I can already see the references in my
mind's eye: "Spira and Lyle have impressively shown (*Brit. Jnl
Subterranean Mammalology* 3/2004, pp 207-392 incl.) that
previously-held opinions on pelage-reversibility-linked
non-tergiversatory counter-locomotion had been based on a
misconception..." As the senior researcher, you would, of course, be
the one to be made an FRS: I'd be quite content with an honorary
doctorate from West Virginia Anabaptist College.

The difference, I surmise, is that rabbits dig permanent burrows to
live in; these burrows do have turning-places, and generally appear to
be wider than the animal. Moles do make the same sort of edifice (I
suppose rather an undefice than an edifice, of course), but they make
their living, not just their homes, by burrowing in search of worms
and things, and so there's an arguable economic benefit in making the
tunnel as narrow as possible. Being able to go backwards without
getting too much mud in one's thermal-insulating hair, or to preen it
out easily once there, must under such conditions be a valuable
characteristic, since who knows when one might meet an inconveniently
extensive root or rock? Add the sad fact that moles fight one another
-- even, I'm sorry to have to report, to the cannibalistic death --
and one has an even sounder case for a modification which permits easy
reversing.

> So I suspect that velveteen,
> > and maybe even corduroy, has sometimes been called "moleskin"; Richard
> > Jefferies associated velveteen jackets with gamekeepers.
>
> Am I missing something here? Why would gamekeepers want to wear clothes
> like moles' coats?

I confess I don't know why gamekeepers more than any other rustic
should have wished to be seen in velveteen or corduroy; but I strongly
suspect that it has to do with smocks. Farm-workers wore smocks much
as we might wear overalls; gamekeepers wouldn't usually need such
protection, and would have found a smock a bit of an encumbrance in
the woods; they must have needed more pockets than field-workers did;
and may even have felt that wearing a jacket emphasised their higher
social standing.

Mike.
Laura F Spira - 05 Jan 2004 15:39 GMT
> [...]
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> the one to be made an FRS: I'd be quite content with an honorary
> doctorate from West Virginia Anabaptist College.

Goodness, I anticipated that my new professorial status would open up
new opportunities for me but this is beyond my wildest dreams. (Are you
sure that BJSM does not require alphabetization of author surnames?
Pessimistically, I suspect that this research partnership is doomed to
failure as soon as a Tate comes along...)

> The difference, I surmise, is that rabbits dig permanent burrows to
> live in; these burrows do have turning-places, and generally appear to
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> and one has an even sounder case for a modification which permits easy
> reversing.

I am temporarily convinced but I shall seek further enlightenment from
William Horwood, the author of the Duncton Wood books (Watership Down
with moles rather than rabbits) with whom I am vaguely acquainted.

>>So I suspect that velveteen,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> and may even have felt that wearing a jacket emphasised their higher
> social standing.

But there are other fabrics from which jackets could equally well be
made - woollen tweed, for example.

This could lead to another citation: "Spira and Lyle (International
Journal of Clothing Semiology, 4/2005, pp. 73-89) have derived important
insights into the significance of the smock and corduroy jacket as class
indicators in late nineteenth century England, shedding light on the
social hierarchies of rural communities through a novel comparison of
clothing structure and fabric selection with the pelage characteristics
of burrowing animals."

Signature

Laura
(emulate St. George for email)

Peter Duncanson - 05 Jan 2004 16:09 GMT
>> [...]
>>
[quoted text clipped - 62 lines]
>But there are other fabrics from which jackets could equally well be
>made - woollen tweed, for example.

But sheep don't burrow underground. Do they?

>This could lead to another citation: "Spira and Lyle (International
>Journal of Clothing Semiology, 4/2005, pp. 73-89) have derived important
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>clothing structure and fabric selection with the pelage characteristics
>of burrowing animals."

Signature

Peter Duncanson
UK
(posting from a.e.u)

Tony Cooper - 06 Jan 2004 00:22 GMT
>This could lead to another citation: "Spira and Lyle (International
>Journal of Clothing Semiology, 4/2005, pp. 73-89) have derived important
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>clothing structure and fabric selection with the pelage characteristics
>of burrowing animals."

The above scans well, but you need a good title with a colon in it.
All really serious studies have colons in the titles.  I think it's a
rule.
Laura F Spira - 06 Jan 2004 09:02 GMT
>>This could lead to another citation: "Spira and Lyle (International
>>Journal of Clothing Semiology, 4/2005, pp. 73-89) have derived important
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> All really serious studies have colons in the titles.  I think it's a
> rule.

Indeed, Tony. All but two of my published works do. That excludes the
poetry, of course: I can't think of any poems with colons in their titles.

Signature

Laura
(emulate St. George for email)

Simon R. Hughes - 06 Jan 2004 09:30 GMT
>>>This could lead to another citation: "Spira and Lyle (International
>>>Journal of Clothing Semiology, 4/2005, pp. 73-89) have derived important
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Indeed, Tony. All but two of my published works do. That excludes the
> poetry, of course: I can't think of any poems with colons in their titles.

The colon is just a way of dividing subtitle from main title;
it's not really a part of the title. Subtitles are useful to tell
the prospective reader what's really in the piece of writing it
fronts; main titles are an opportunity for the writer to pull
some corny puns.
Signature

Simon R. Hughes

John Dean - 06 Jan 2004 15:50 GMT
>>> This could lead to another citation: "Spira and Lyle (International
>>> Journal of Clothing Semiology, 4/2005, pp. 73-89) have derived
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> poetry, of course: I can't think of any poems with colons in their
> titles.

http://www.netpoets.com/classic/poems/048010.htm

--
John Dean
Oxford
De-frag to reply
Dr Robin Bignall - 07 Jan 2004 00:01 GMT
>>>> This could lead to another citation: "Spira and Lyle (International
>>>> Journal of Clothing Semiology, 4/2005, pp. 73-89) have derived
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
>http://www.netpoets.com/classic/poems/048010.htm

Wicked!

Signature

wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall

Quiet part of Hertfordshire
England

Mike Lyle - 07 Jan 2004 22:21 GMT
[...]
> > I confess I don't know why gamekeepers more than any other rustic
> > should have wished to be seen in velveteen or corduroy; but I strongly
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> This could lead to another citation: "Spira and Lyle (International
> Journal of Clothing Semiology, 4/2005, pp. 73-89) [...]

(It is with infinite sadness that I find that the Spirit of the
Internet has apparently seen the greater wisdom of destroying my
touchingly beautiful original reply, in which I dared to suggest that
Destiny itself had proclaimed our Scientifical Union, and urged you,
in despite of all that a vulgar World might say, to come away with me
to my Phrontistery on the hill. The vital message has now dissolved
into no more than a swirling soup of icily indifferent electrons. It
was clearly Not To Be: so be it: wiping a manly tear, I jut my jaw,
and grit my stiff upper lip (ouch! that bloody well hurts!): what is a
man if he be not Man Enough to outface the Worst a Cruel World may
care to chuck at him? It was Not to Be: my long resounding shuddering
cry is: I Accept. Perhaps in the long years to come I shall learn to
understand that it was All For The Best. But yet let me cherish in
some quiet corner of my spirit the Memory of the Dream.)

Meanwhile, the tweed thing is a little more complex than you perhaps
appreciate. We later-born are lucky enough to know both Harris tweed,
product of the Hebridean crofter weavers and their waulkings, and
Irish tweed of various kinds -- particularly the lyingly-named
"thornproof": if that Magee bloke ever comes near me, I'll smack him
in the mouth (but then again, the Widow Barbour too was lying when she
told me her waxed thing was thornproof: I don't know where she lives,
but we have proper thorns round here, and my now decrepit coat has
been back to the factory twice for major surgery. Even my US-Army
combat coat has stood up better).

English and Welsh rustics didn't use the Scottish or Irish kinds until
the 20th century, as they were reserved for the gentry; instead there
was a curious substance which few of them could afford known as "Derby
tweed". Derby tweed is a closely-woven pepper-and-salt-coloured
woollen stuff about half an inch thick which you used to be able to
buy a ready-made suit of in Carmarthen market and other such places: I
wish I had, as I now appreciate that it had a certain ham-bone-chewing
style about it, and it seemed to last as long as a Savile Row Suit
(i.e., if they didn't bury you in it, your grandchildren would give up
trying to wear it out, and offer it to the Victoria and Albert
Museum).

In Scotland, tweed sometimes had a more precise significance: just as
the Scots Guards had an almost incredibly brash private pattern for
their officers' off-duty wear (so loud, that in the sixties or
seventies of the century just past they couldn't bear to be seen in it
in public and got it modified: they had to get permission from the
Queen Mother, or the Lord High Executioner Pursuivant in Ordinary, or
somebody), so particular lairds had designs available only to their
employees. An echo of this custom was visible as late as the 1980s
when Forestry Commission emloyees might be seen in pretty ordinary
green-mixture tweed sports coats with red flannel collars bearing a
brass crown like soldiers' "collar-dogs".

So in England "velvet" it had to be.

Mike.
Laura F Spira - 08 Jan 2004 08:47 GMT
> Laura F Spira <laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote in message
news:<3FF98537.9020101@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk>...

> [...]
>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> understand that it was All For The Best. But yet let me cherish in
> some quiet corner of my spirit the Memory of the Dream.)

Through the drifting mist of Missed Opportunity you may discern me, a
small Heap of Misery surrounded by damp Linen Handkerchiefs stiffening
from the salt of my tears. That the chance of Intellectual Connection
with a man endowed with Two Top Hats *and* a Phrontistery should have
passed me by is a Misfortune too Crushing to contemplate without
Distress. The Temptation to seek the Oblivion of the Bottle is strong
but, for the sake of the Young who sit at my feet seeking Enlightenment,
I must Dissemble, Conceal this Ineffable Sadness and proceed with my
Quotidian Tasks, suppressing the Intermittent Sob occasioned by my
Tortured Mind which cannot but Reflect on What Might Have Been.

> Meanwhile, the tweed thing is a little more complex than you perhaps
> appreciate. We later-born are lucky enough to know both Harris tweed,
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>
> So in England "velvet" it had to be.

This all sounds so tremendously authoritative that I remain stoutly
unconvinced. (This sceptical stance is in part occasioned by my
experience with others who share your first name and derive great
pleasure from winding me up.)

Signature

Laura
(emulate St. George for email)

Mike Lyle - 08 Jan 2004 15:48 GMT
[.....]
>  > So in England "velvet" it had to be.
>
> This all sounds so tremendously authoritative that I remain stoutly
> unconvinced. (This sceptical stance is in part occasioned by my
> experience with others who share your first name and derive great
> pleasure from winding me up.)

Well, I greatly exaggerated the cost of Derby tweed; but the bits
about the Scots Guards, and lairds' private tweeds, and the Forsetry
Commission coat were perfectly true. (As were my gripes about
"thornproof" not meaning what it said.)

Hmm: "forsetry". I'm sure you can do something with that.

Mike.
Laura F Spira - 08 Jan 2004 16:38 GMT
> [.....]
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Hmm: "forsetry". I'm sure you can do something with that.

Ah, the liberty bodice again.

Signature

Laura
(emulate St. George for email)

John Dean - 09 Jan 2004 13:35 GMT
>> [.....]
>>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Ah, the liberty bodice again.

These Gene Pitney fans are everywhere.
--
John Dean
Oxford
De-frag to reply
Laura F Spira - 09 Jan 2004 15:29 GMT
>>>[.....]
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> These Gene Pitney fans are everywhere.

You bet! I was at his concert at the New Theatre in 1963. Never been to
Tulsa though.

Signature

Laura
(emulate St. George for email)

Frances Kemmish - 09 Jan 2004 15:41 GMT
>>>> [.....]
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> You bet! I was at his concert at the New Theatre in 1963. Never been to
> Tulsa though.

I was at his concert in Derby at about the same time - I suppose it was
the same tour.

He comes from Connecticut you know.

Signature

Frances Kemmish
Production Manager
East Coast Youth Ballet
www.byramartscenter.com

Laura F Spira - 09 Jan 2004 17:51 GMT
>>>>> [.....]
>>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> He comes from Connecticut you know.

I didn't know that. I must confess that I look back on that particular
teenage enthusiasm with a certain cringe. My father derisively described
him as "that pop singer with a mouth like a chicken's bum." When I
enquired about my father's familiarity with the rear ends of poultry, I
was punished for being cheeky.

Signature

Laura
(emulate St. George for email)

Frances Kemmish - 09 Jan 2004 18:05 GMT
>>>>>> [.....]
>>>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> enquired about my father's familiarity with the rear ends of poultry, I
> was punished for being cheeky.

I hadn't noticed the similarity, but then I can't claim your father's
intimate knowledge of chicken rears, either. I think I lost interest in
Gene Pitney when I found out that he was only 5 ft 4 in. tall - I was
always shallow.

Signature

Frances Kemmish
Production Manager
East Coast Youth Ballet
www.byramartscenter.com

John Dean - 09 Jan 2004 18:21 GMT
>>>> [.....]
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> You bet! I was at his concert at the New Theatre in 1963. Never been
> to Tulsa though.

Bet you've been 24 hours from it, though.
--
John Dean
Oxford
De-frag to reply
Tony Cooper - 10 Jan 2004 03:53 GMT
>> You bet! I was at his concert at the New Theatre in 1963. Never been
>> to Tulsa though.
>
>Bet you've been 24 hours from it, though.

Ouch.  I've been pierced by a STS arrow aimed at someone else.
John Dean - 10 Jan 2004 14:41 GMT
>>> You bet! I was at his concert at the New Theatre in 1963. Never been
>>> to Tulsa though.
>>
>> Bet you've been 24 hours from it, though.
>
> Ouch.  I've been pierced by a STS arrow aimed at someone else.

A good cure for which (for me) proved to be participation in a newsgroup far
far away and long long ago in a discussion as to *where* exactly a person
would be if they were 24 Hours from Tulsa. Imaginations ran riot on forms of
transport etc. and you quickly lose all interest in the toon.
Another good way to get into fist fights with your nearest and dearest is to
try to dope out the route, chronology, starting point and mode of transport
of the guy who leaves  the note hangin' on her door. (Plus the speculation
on what the note says, in it's entirety. One part says he's leavin'. How
many other parts are there? What do they say?)
--
John Dean
Oxford
De-frag to reply
MC - 10 Jan 2004 14:52 GMT
> A good cure for which (for me) proved to be participation in a newsgroup far
> far away and long long ago in a discussion as to *where* exactly a person
> would be if they were 24 Hours from Tulsa. Imaginations ran riot on forms of
> transport etc. and you quickly lose all interest in the toon.

Since I have no desire whatsoever to go to Tulsa, I'm *always* 24 hours
from Tulsa.
Charles Riggs - 11 Jan 2004 08:21 GMT
>>>> You bet! I was at his concert at the New Theatre in 1963. Never been
>>>> to Tulsa though.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>would be if they were 24 Hours from Tulsa. Imaginations ran riot on forms of
>transport etc. and you quickly lose all interest in the toon.

Well, we know he was driving since he said he pulled into a motel: a
small motel. It wasn't likely he was driving a rental car to the
airport on his way to catch a flight home for who, then, would
emphasize the fact he was only 24 hours from home? Doesn't sound
right.

ObAUE: If an airplane or two were involved he could have been
anywhere, but we know he's not for several reasons: 'cafe', 'jukebox',
'motel' most especially, the way he approaches the girl, the way she
reacted after not very long a time, and the fact he keeps going on
about being 24 hours from home. No-one visiting in, say, Europe, would
use that expression if he lived in the middle of the US.

Knowing all this and knowing he had to ask a total stranger where he
could get something to eat, it is a safe guess he had stopped for the
night in a fairly small town. I doubt he would have passed by a large
town after he'd been driving all day; he would have wanted a nice
meal. (Sommat else too, perhaps, but that's outside the purview of a
discussion of his, ahem, route.)

It is clear to me he didn't drive all night to get to the motel,
largely because we know he's not a night driver by habit. If he were,
he could have gone a very long way in 24 hours and he wouldn't have
used the word 'only', the drive being an effort not to dismiss that
lightly.

OK. Even if a slowpoke driver, which is hard to imagine in a
hard-lovin' American man, he should make at least 350 miles in eight
hours of driving, even with several breaks for beers and bathrooms.
Another question that naturally arises is where had he gone before
heading back to Tulsa? Careful study of the map, considering his
schedule at the same time, along with the fact that a "cafe" is where
he ate and that it had a jukebox (yet she recommended it above all
others, so jukeboxes in a good restaurant have to common in that area
of the country), leads me to think something like the following
happened:

6 AM: Up from bed, take a shower, and shave. Watch the news briefly on
the TV in his room.

8 AM: Breakfast at this motel. What city? El Paso, where'd he did a
gig as a country singer for a night or, perhaps, more. It's the right
distance from Tulsa to fit the facts we know, and they love country
music there. Lubbock, where he met his new girl, is on the way from
there to Tulsa and is roughly halfway in-between, as it would be.

10 AM: Our man has had breakfast, has packed, and is on his way home,
knowing he will still won't be there until the next day.

10 AM until 6 PM. He drives the 300 miles towards Tulsa, stopping a
few times for this and that, and stops in or near Lubbock, where he
sees that welcoming light. He's 380 miles from Tulsa, another's day
drive starting the next morning: 24 hours from Tulsa. Had it not been
for the temptress who stole him from his dearest darling, he would
have made it.
Signature

Charles Riggs
Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net

Mike Lyle - 08 Jan 2004 21:33 GMT
>  [.....]
> >  > So in England "velvet" it had to be.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Hmm: "forsetry". I'm sure you can do something with that.

"Waulking" was genuine, too. The womenfolk gather round a long table,
shrinking wet new-woven tweed to the proper texture by stretching and
bashing it to the rhythm of saucy songs in the Gaelic.

Mike.
M. J. Powell - 10 Jan 2004 19:28 GMT
snip

>Meanwhile, the tweed thing is a little more complex than you perhaps
>appreciate. We later-born are lucky enough to know both Harris tweed,
>product of the Hebridean crofter weavers and their waulkings, and
>Irish tweed of various kinds -- particularly the lyingly-named
>"thornproof":

IIRC 'Thornproof' doesn't mean what is appears to mean. It means that
the hole made by a thorn will close up after the thorn is withdrawn. And
maintain the waterproofness?

Mike
Signature

M.J.Powell

Dr Robin Bignall - 03 Jan 2004 23:08 GMT
>>>docrobin@ntlworld.com spake thus:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>> Are we just speaking here of a short-lived childhood confusion, like the
>> "Handbook for Young Mothers" story?

Signature

wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall

Quiet part of Hertfordshire
England

Dr Robin Bignall - 03 Jan 2004 23:12 GMT
>For a long time, I thought that moleskin trousers were made from the
>skins of unfortunate moles. I didn't enquire about the process of
>producing them.

You and me both, Frances. I came across the term often in reading, and
never thought to look it up. But the first COD10 entry for 'moleskin' is
"The skin of a mole used as fur".

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wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall

Quiet part of Hertfordshire
England

Aaron J. Dinkin - 11 Jan 2004 03:00 GMT
> For a long time, I thought that moleskin trousers were made from the
> skins of unfortunate moles. I didn't enquire about the process of
> producing them.

I hope you never had to cook anything with molasses.

-Aaron J. Dinkin
Dr. Whom
Pat Durkin - 11 Jan 2004 03:37 GMT
> > For a long time, I thought that moleskin trousers were made from the
> > skins of unfortunate moles. I didn't enquire about the process of
> > producing them.
>
> I hope you never had to cook anything with molasses.

snickersnort.
david56 - 03 Jan 2004 18:25 GMT
trio@euronet.nl spake thus:

> > docrobin@ntlworld.com spake thus:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> the skins of mules with which you are so aware? Where was the market for
> muleskins? Do you have anything made of muleskin in your house?

There's no clue in the term itself that it means something else.  If
it were "mule husband" or "mule stretcher" then I would have
wondered.  I don't know much about the Old West - perhaps they raised
mules for food?

> Not thinking of moleskin, are you? Not that I ever heard tell of a
> specialist, a professional moleskinner.

That's nearly one.  A mole skinner who produces moleskin.

> Heck, beaver pelts had huge market for a few decades (the top hats of
> Europe were made of the beaver skins of North America), and yet I never
> heard of a beaverskinner. Fur trapper, yes.

But there must have been beaver skinners, in the same way there are
turkey pluckers.

> Are we just speaking here of a short-lived childhood confusion, like the
> "Handbook for Young Mothers" story?

If we hadn't had this discussion, I would have continued to think
that the Little Big Man had a job which involved skinning mules.  I
was not even a child when I first saw the film.

Signature

David
=====

Rich Ulrich - 04 Jan 2004 22:45 GMT
[ snip, about moleskins]

> Heck, beaver pelts had huge market for a few decades (the top hats of
> Europe were made of the beaver skins of North America), and yet I never
> heard of a beaverskinner. Fur trapper, yes.
[ ... ]

That does not sound like you are referring to felt hats.
Felt hats stayed popular for many years.

As I recall, the hairs in beaver fur have tiny barbs, so
they mat together when they are pressed together.

And that process used mercury, which gave off toxic
fumes and was why hatters famously were mad.

Signature

Rich Ulrich, wpilib@pitt.edu
http://www.pitt.edu/~wpilib/index.html
"Taxes are the price we pay for civilization."

Donna Richoux - 04 Jan 2004 23:10 GMT
> > Heck, beaver pelts had huge market for a few decades (the top hats of
> > Europe were made of the beaver skins of North America), and yet I never
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> That does not sound like you are referring to felt hats.
> Felt hats stayed popular for many years.

I'm not positive as to what you mean by felt hats, actually. Felt can be
made from various animal hair, such as sheep's wool or beaver. Are you
using it to refer to a particular fashion?

I didn't realize the fashion for beaver hats lasted so long. The
Columbia Encyclopedia at Bartleby.com says, under "fur trade," that
beaver was in decline, both by changing fashion and from dwindling
supply, by the early 19th century. But it started quite early:

    The 17th cent. saw the high-crowned beaver of the
    Puritan and the wide plumed hat of the cavalier; by
    1660 the brim had become so wide that the corners
    were turned up forming the tricorne. ...

    By the 19th cent.... the beaver, or English
    round hat, of the 17th and 18th cent. gave way to
    the silk top hat, or stovepipe; caps and soft felt
    hats came back into favor; and the derby was
    introduced by William Bowler in England.

There's a site on the Hudson Bay fur traders which has this picture of
stylish and varied beaver hats:

 http://www.canadiana.org/hbc/_popups/PAMp58-98_e.htm

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Best -- Donna Richoux

Rich Ulrich - 04 Jan 2004 23:59 GMT
> > > Heck, beaver pelts had huge market for a few decades (the top hats of
> > > Europe were made of the beaver skins of North America), and yet I never
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>      1660 the brim had become so wide that the corners
>      were turned up forming the tricorne. ...

The link you provide has pictures of all those felt-looking
hats....  I didn't know that, for a time, felt hats were
called 'beavers' as a class, but that is the way that I read it.

>      By the 19th cent.... the beaver, or English
>      round hat, of the 17th and 18th cent. gave way to
>      the silk top hat, or stovepipe; caps and soft felt
>      hats came back into favor; and the derby was
>      introduced by William Bowler in England.

So, perhaps, what disappeared was the custom of calling
the hats 'beaver', if  'soft felt hats'   continued to be
made of the same choices of furs.

> There's a site on the Hudson Bay fur traders which has this picture of
> stylish and varied beaver hats:
>
>   http://www.canadiana.org/hbc/_popups/PAMp58-98_e.htm

As I said, those look like felt, and not  'made from beaver skins,'
which is your original description, above.  I suppose when
I hear 'beaver skin hat,'  I think of  Davey Crockett.  Though,
his was coonskin, wasn't it?

I googled on <"felt making"  mercury>  and the first hit included
beaver.   Another hit was this history that cites dates and places,
and also cites certain doubts and contradictions in those data.

http://dmi-www.mc.duke.edu/oem/hatters.htm

"Hat Industry" Chapter
from Mercury; a History of Quicksilver, by Leonard J. Goldwater
                   Published by York Press
                   ISBN: 0912752017

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Rich Ulrich, wpilib@pitt.edu
http://www.pitt.edu/~wpilib/index.html
"Taxes are the price we pay for civilization."

Donna Richoux - 05 Jan 2004 10:58 GMT
> > > > Heck, beaver pelts had huge market for a few decades (the top hats of
> > > > Europe were made of the beaver skins of North America), and yet I never
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> hats....  I didn't know that, for a time, felt hats were
> called 'beavers' as a class, but that is the way that I read it.

That wasn't some odd linguistic quirk that led them to be called
"beavers"; the hats really were made from beaver.

The research I did yesterday showed the connection between what I knew
and what you knew. Beaver makes a high quality felt, and since the
Europeans had driven the native European beaver nearly to extinction,
they were happy to import boatloads of North American beaver pelts, turn
them into felt, and turn that into hats. See, for example, the Hudson
Bay site explanation:
 http://www.canadiana.org/hbc/hist/hist1_e.html

> >      By the 19th cent.... the beaver, or English
> >      round hat, of the 17th and 18th cent. gave way to
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> As I said, those look like felt, and not  'made from beaver skins,'
> which is your original description, above.  

All right, I shouldn't have said European hats were made from the skins
of North American beavers, I should have said they were made from the
hair of North American beavers. (This is what's meant by splitting
hairs, right?) We were talking about skinning animals, and I knew that
piles of skins/pelts/furs were shipped to Europe, for hats. The fact
that the Europeans processed them further, using the hairs to make felt,
is interesting and I thank you for adding it, but it was not really what
I was talking about. The entire pelts had to be removed from the
carcasses of the dead animals, (the verb "to skin"); that's actually how
we got onto this.

> I hear 'beaver skin hat,'  I think of  Davey Crockett.  Though,
> his was coonskin, wasn't it?

Yes, raccoon. I had an inkling that talking about hats and American
history was going to cause someone to think of that image, which was one
reason I went out of my way to illustrate that I was talking about fancy
European hats.

> I googled on <"felt making"  mercury>  and the first hit included
> beaver.   Another hit was this history that cites dates and places,
> and also cites certain doubts and contradictions in those data.
>
>  http://dmi-www.mc.duke.edu/oem/hatters.htm

Odd how uncertain they are about the mercury use. I guess that comes
from keeping processes secret.

I'm always intrigued to add another item to my list of skills forgotten
during the Dark Ages. So felt-making was another.

Signature

Best -- Donna Richoux

Dr Robin Bignall - 05 Jan 2004 13:45 GMT
>I'm always intrigued to add another item to my list of skills forgotten
>during the Dark Ages. So felt-making was another.

Apropos of the mercury business, those people who used to make matches in
the 19th century were afflicted by "phossy jaw" through licking white
phosphorus.
http://www.osh.dol.govt.nz/kidz/gore/jphossy.html

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wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall

Quiet part of Hertfordshire
England

Bob Cunningham - 05 Jan 2004 16:29 GMT
I haven't followed this thread, but the subject line makes
me wonder if "cat skinner" has come up in it.

At one time, cat skinner was a well-known occupation.  I
don't know whether or not it still is.

Okay, I see now that Google Groups finds no occurrences of
"cat skinner" in AUE.  It has appeared in other newsgroups,
but usually in other senses than the occupational-skill one.
Donna Richoux - 05 Jan 2004 16:39 GMT
> I haven't followed this thread, but the subject line makes
> me wonder if "cat skinner" has come up in it.
>
> At one time, cat skinner was a well-known occupation.  I
> don't know whether or not it still is.

Something in my mind said "logging" and sure enough, from a site about
an Oregon logging company and their machines:

    Fiat Allis 16-BA dozer operator is often called a
    'cat skinner' which bears some explanation. First
    off understand that the 'Cat' is really a reference
    to Caterpillar Tractor, largest American
    manufacturer of dozers and something close to the
    inventor of them. It happens to be a trade name of
    theirs but is often used generically to describe all
    dozers, though the latter use will get you 3 lashes
    by Cat's trademark police.
     
    The 'skinner' part of the description is really a
    19th century term. The bull teams that were used
    extensively prior to the 20th century as beasts of
    burden where driven by 'bull whackers' or 'bull
    skinners'. Both terms refer to the fact that the
    team driver used a leather whip to control the team.
    It is only natural that if the guy driving a bull
    team is a bull skinner, then the guy driving the cat
    is a cat skinner. Oh, well!

I lived in northwest Oregon for a year and visited there later, so that
might account for the vague recognition.

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Best -- Donna Richoux

Bob Cunningham - 05 Jan 2004 16:54 GMT

> > I haven't followed this thread, but the subject line makes
> > me wonder if "cat skinner" has come up in it.

> > At one time, cat skinner was a well-known occupation.  I
> > don't know whether or not it still is.

> Something in my mind said "logging" and sure enough, from a site about
> an Oregon logging company and their machines:
 
>      Fiat Allis 16-BA dozer operator is often called a
>      'cat skinner' which bears some explanation. First
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>      dozers, though the latter use will get you 3 lashes
>      by Cat's trademark police.
     
>      The 'skinner' part of the description is really a
>      19th century term. The bull teams that were used
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>      team is a bull skinner, then the guy driving the cat
>      is a cat skinner. Oh, well!

> I lived in northwest Oregon for a year and visited there later, so that
> might account for the vague recognition.

That's interesting, but I would never have associated "cat
skinner" with the logging industry.  For me it brings to
mind the guys who use bulldozers to move large quantities of
dirt around to reshape the surface of the earth for a
construction or road-building project.
Andy Dingley - 05 Jan 2004 17:43 GMT
>Okay, I see now that Google Groups finds no occurrences of
>"cat skinner" in AUE.  It has appeared in other newsgroups,
>but usually in other senses than the occupational-skill one.

I haven't bought a Caterpillar product since '94, when they had a bout
of union-busting in their US plants.

I heard "Cat skinner" used then, in reference to some of the blackleg
workers and management consultants (sic) seen as being part of
management's attack on the workforce.

--
  There's more thaan one way to skin a cat,
  but you can't beat the electric belt-sander.
Murray Arnow - 05 Jan 2004 20:17 GMT
> I haven't followed this thread, but the subject line makes
> me wonder if "cat skinner" has come up in it.
>
> At one time, cat skinner was a well-known occupation.  I
> don't know whether or not it still is.

I don't know if that occupation is listed by the Illinois Department of
Employment. But I know that they have "human projectile" and "hooker"
listed.

One can make reasonable guesses about "human projectile", but I don't
know what a hooker does.[1] I am quite certain the hooker that IDE is
referring to is something other than what is all too obvious.

[1] The comma placement is done with deference to Sparky.
Javi - 06 Jan 2004 14:29 GMT
Murray Arnow  escribió :

> I don't know if that occupation is listed by the Illinois Department
> of Employment. But I know that they have "human projectile" and
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> know what a hooker does.[1] I am quite certain the hooker that IDE is
> referring to is something other than what is all too obvious.

Person who makes hooks? Person who works with hooks? Dockers and stevedores?
I remember a film (with Marlon Brando?) where dockers/stevedores used a hook
as their habitual working (and fighting) instrument.

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Saludos cordiales
                               Javi

Mood conjugation:

I enjoy a drop
You never say no
He is an alcoholic

(Craig Brown)

Tony Cooper - 06 Jan 2004 14:48 GMT
>Murray Arnow  escribió :
>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>I remember a film (with Marlon Brando?) where dockers/stevedores used a hook
>as their habitual working (and fighting) instrument.

I suppose a person that makes a living crocheting could be called a
hooker.
Pat Durkin - 06 Jan 2004 15:57 GMT
> >Murray Arnow  escribió :
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> I suppose a person that makes a living crocheting could be called a
> hooker.

I wonder how many women's crochet and needlework clubs have snickered under
the name "Happy Hookers".

Another image comes to mind:  the old movies of vaudeville bombs being
yanked off the stage with that giant hook.
Dr Robin Bignall - 07 Jan 2004 00:02 GMT
>Murray Arnow  escribió :
>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>I remember a film (with Marlon Brando?) where dockers/stevedores used a hook
>as their habitual working (and fighting) instrument.

"On the Waterfront," I think. 1950s.

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Robin Bignall

Quiet part of Hertfordshire
England

Javi - 08 Jan 2004 07:32 GMT
Dr Robin Bignall  escribió :

>> Murray Arnow  escribió :
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>>
> "On the Waterfront," I think. 1950s.

That must be. It was black and white, and Brando was quite young. Yes, you
are right about the date:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/6303402070/102-2635677-9332926
?v=glance

Signature

Saludos cordiales
                         Javi

Mood conjugation:

I enjoy a drop
You never say no
He is an alcoholic

(Craig Brown)

Mike Lyle - 05 Jan 2004 17:02 GMT
[...]
> > I googled on <"felt making"  mercury>  and the first hit included
> > beaver.   Another hit was this history that cites dates and places,
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> I'm always intrigued to add another item to my list of skills forgotten
> during the Dark Ages. So felt-making was another.

But then, again, it isn't: felt is still sometimes made by hand, of
course, including occasionally in British schools as a handcraft
activity. A most spectacular instance is the one I saw on tv a while
ago, where some Mongols were making the thick felt with which they
cover their yurts: you make a good long pad of wet wool, then roll it
round a pole, then attach horses and drag the roll off to the horizon
and back, by which time the fibres will have been firmly pressed
together. Mercury was not implicated.

The best top-hats came to be made of silk: I have one, but
non-destructive examination has not revealed to me exactly how it's
made. Unlike a felt hat, it's glossy and rigid: if you tap it, it's
faintly resonant, and feels rather like a structure of strong veneer;
and the outer layer consists of a nap which has to be brushed
directionally like a cat's coat to keep it smooth and shiny. (The
usual thing to brush them with is a silk handkerchief.) A grey one I
also have is rigid, too; but is made of, or I suppose covered with, a
thin dull-surfaced felt.

My brother, as a boy, for his own reasons used to wear an opera-hat
while practising the 'cello. Maybe it got him into the mood.

The traditional Australian military and civilian slouch hats are made
from rabbit fur felt, which is finer than wool felt. I can't speak for
New Zealand Army lemon-squeezers.

Mike.
Laura F Spira - 05 Jan 2004 17:15 GMT
> The best top-hats came to be made of silk: I have one, but
> non-destructive examination has not revealed to me exactly how it's
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> also have is rigid, too; but is made of, or I suppose covered with, a
> thin dull-surfaced felt.

A man who owns two top hats: I'm impressed.

Signature

Laura
(emulate St. George for email)

Tony Cooper - 06 Jan 2004 00:25 GMT
>> The best top-hats came to be made of silk: I have one, but
>> non-destructive examination has not revealed to me exactly how it's
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>A man who owns two top hats: I'm impressed.

And, he didn't mention anything about owning a rabbit.
Mike Lyle - 06 Jan 2004 17:58 GMT
> >> The best top-hats came to be made of silk: I have one, but
> >> non-destructive examination has not revealed to me exactly how it's
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> >
> >A man who owns two top hats: I'm impressed.

Well, you can't get by with only one colour, after all.

> And, he didn't mention anything about owning a rabbit.

The little bugger disappeared in a Stetson.

Mike.
Donna Richoux - 05 Jan 2004 18:04 GMT
> trio@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux) wrote

> [...]
> > > I googled on <"felt making"  mercury>  and the first hit included
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> and back, by which time the fibres will have been firmly pressed
> together. Mercury was not implicated.

I didn't say the art of felt-making was never remembered. Obviously we
were talking about people making felt hats in the 1600s. What I said is
that it was one of the things lost *during the Dark Ages*, say, roughly
400 - 1400 AD. After the Romans left and before the Renaissance. I
suppose I should have said "forgotten by the English" or "forgotten by
Western Europe."

That was in that Hudson Bay history site I mentioned:

http://www.canadiana.org/hbc/hist/hist1_e.html
    After the fall of the Roman Empire, the art of
    making felt was lost in Western Europe. It did not
    come back until two things happened: First,
    crusaders visiting Constantinople saw the fine hats
    and other clothes worn by people there and learned
    how they were made. Second, a great invasion into
    Russia forced many felt makers west into Europe.
          By the year 1600, the need for more beaver fur
    exploded.

Soap-making was another such skill, forgotten in the Dark Ages, which
was related to how to make fine woollen cloth. The Belgians (Flemish)
recovered that secret and had a monopoly for centuries.

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Best -- Donna Richoux

Frances Kemmish - 06 Jan 2004 00:36 GMT
> I didn't say the art of felt-making was never remembered. Obviously we
> were talking about people making felt hats in the 1600s. What I said is
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>            By the year 1600, the need for more beaver fur
>      exploded.

I find it really difficult to believe that the art of felt-making could
have been lost, since it is so much easier to cause wool to felt than to
avoid it felting.

It is possible that there is not much evidence of felt from the
archaeological record in Europe during the "Dark Ages" (what I would
prefer to call the early Mediaeval period). I did find a note of felt
sheet found in a tomb in Norway from about 500AD:

http://www.feltcrafts.com/history.htm

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Frances Kemmish
Production Manager
East Coast Youth Ballet
www.byramartscenter.com

Mike Lyle - 06 Jan 2004 18:26 GMT
> > trio@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux) wrote
[...]
> > > I'm always intrigued to add another item to my list of skills forgotten
> > > during the Dark Ages. So felt-making was another.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> > ago, where some Mongols were making the thick felt with which they
> > cover their yurts: [...]

> I didn't say the art of felt-making was never remembered. Obviously we
> were talking about people making felt hats in the 1600s. What I said is
> that it was one of the things lost *during the Dark Ages*, say, roughly
> 400 - 1400 AD. After the Romans left and before the Renaissance. I
> suppose I should have said "forgotten by the English" or "forgotten by
> Western Europe."

No, you shouldn't have: it was my perverse mind at work, failing to
allow the possibility that you actually meant what you said. For no
good reason, not having read the links provided, and being unwilling
to believe that people actually *had* temporarily forgotten how to
make felt, I assumed you were using "forgotten during the Dark Ages"
in some non-literal allusive sense. Unfairly, a risk you take when you
mix with alumni of West 'Gin Anabaptist.

But hang on! The Dark Ages ending around AD 1400? Come, come! History
has much to tell of the Middle Ages: darkness reigned not. Even "time
immemorial" ended, according to my highly fallible memorial faculty,
in 1187 or thereabouts.

Mike.
Dr Robin Bignall - 03 Jan 2004 23:07 GMT
>docrobin@ntlworld.com spake thus:
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>Well, maybe, but a person is obviously not a bicycle,

I didn't mention 'person', so I guess your college had one.

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wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall

Quiet part of Hertfordshire
England

david56 - 03 Jan 2004 23:20 GMT
docrobin@ntlworld.com spake thus:

> >docrobin@ntlworld.com spake thus:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> I didn't mention 'person', so I guess your college had one.

Certainly not, but I occasionally visited school friends who'd gone
to Cambridge.

Signature

David
=====

Donna Richoux - 03 Jan 2004 17:54 GMT
> >How many other words have apparently reasonable literal meanings, but
> >in fact mean something completely different?
>
> College bicycle.

I thought that was "village bicycle." Both?

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Best -- Donna Richoux

david56 - 03 Jan 2004 18:26 GMT
trio@euronet.nl spake thus:

> > >How many other words have apparently reasonable literal meanings, but
> > >in fact mean something completely different?
> >
> > College bicycle.
>
> I thought that was "village bicycle." Both?

You can't be a village bicycle if you live in a college.

Signature

David
=====

Dr Robin Bignall - 03 Jan 2004 23:15 GMT
>trio@euronet.nl spake thus:
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>You can't be a village bicycle if you live in a college.

I dunno. Some of them do get around a bit.

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Robin Bignall

Quiet part of Hertfordshire
England

Bob Martin - 04 Jan 2004 13:16 GMT
> You can't be a village bicycle if you live in a college.

Why not ?  I knew a plant bicycle who didn't live in the plant !

Bob Martin
Javi - 02 Jan 2004 17:48 GMT
Donna Richoux  escribió :

> I doubt even that "skin" was used very often to refer to the hide of
> mules. Which is why I think that, if truth were known, "mule-skinner"
> might turn out to come from "schooner" or a Spanish word (esquina?)

After looking at my dictionaries, I find the Spanish hypothesis improbable:
"esquina" only has two meanings, "corner" and, in ancient times, "stone that
was thrown from above against enemies". I cannot think of another word that
sound similarly.

By the way, while looking at he DRAE I have found something that might be
interesting for the group: the word "mulatto" comes from Spanish "mulato",
which is derived from "mulo" (mule), in the sense "mixed breed"; in Spanish
"mulato" or "muleto" is originally "young mule".

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You are a Bohemian
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John Dean - 02 Jan 2004 19:50 GMT
>>>> My dear friends, I am distressed to find how gruesome imaginations
>>>> will be. Muleskinners drove mules, teams of mules, hitched to
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> involvement with mules (breeding and raising them?), but I'd like
> evidence.

Mules have long been a source of transport for the British Army. Nice
cartoon here
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWhorses.htm as well as some WW1
data - such as the employment of nearly quarter of a million mules by the
end of the War.
They were used in WW2 as well, especially in the Far East. Chindits relied
on mules to carry supplies.
Some fascinating history here :
http://freespace.virgin.net/gwyneth.wright/gbmules.html

including :

<< In Henry VIII (Act VI, Scene 2), Shakespeare described the demise of
Cardinal Wolsey thus:

"He fell sick suddenly, and grew so ill
He could not sit his mule"  >>

and at http://freespace.virgin.net/gwyneth.wright/army.html

<< 'You can talk to a horse, but you can chat and whisper to a mule.'  >>

For old Rud, it came second only to the Oont:

<< The 'orse 'e knows above a bit, the bullock's but a fool,
The elephant's a gentleman, the battery-mule's a mule;
But the commissariat cam-u-el, when all is said an' done,
'E's a devil an' a ostrich an' a orphan-child in one. >>
--
John Dean
Oxford
De-frag to reply
meirman - 04 Jan 2004 03:45 GMT
In alt.english.usage on Thu, 01 Jan 2004 21:22:04 -0500 MC
<copeSP@AMZAPca.inter.net> posted:

>> > My dear friends, I am distressed to find how gruesome imaginations will
>> > be. Muleskinners drove mules, teams of mules, hitched to wagons. Period.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~rhio/WagnTrain.htm

Haven't seen this one yet, but what about the 20-mule team on the
Boraxo commercials, in the 50's.  If it were a tv show, I'd think they
just made it up, but I think the commercials had some level of
honesty.    At least that one. :)

s/ meirman    If you are emailing me please  
say if you are posting the same response.

Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years
            Indianapolis,   7 years
            Chicago,        6 years
            Brooklyn NY    12 years
            Baltimore      20 years
Skitt - 04 Jan 2004 03:49 GMT
> Haven't seen this one yet, but what about the 20-mule team on the
> Boraxo commercials, in the 50's.  If it were a tv show, I'd think they
> just made it up, but I think the commercials had some level of
> honesty.    At least that one. :)

20 Mule Team® Borax is still very much around.
http://www.dialcorp.com/index.cfm?page_id=55
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www.geocities.com/opus731/

meirman - 04 Jan 2004 06:13 GMT
In alt.english.usage on Sat, 3 Jan 2004 19:49:51 -0800 "Skitt"
<skitt99@comcast.net> posted:

>> Haven't seen this one yet, but what about the 20-mule team on the
>> Boraxo commercials, in the 50's.  If it were a tv show, I'd think they
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>20 Mule Team® Borax is still very much around.
>http://www.dialcorp.com/index.cfm?page_id=55

Sad to say, I don't see that product around here.  I don't know if it
was ever sold around here or not.

What I don't see is Boraxo powdered hand cleaner.  It's great, and I
hope somehow it is still made**.  I have most of a box?, because I
don't work on my car as much as I used it.  But I still use Boraxo to
clean my hands, mostly after I work on the car.  Much better than
Lava, that my mother liked.  Feels good to use and hands feel good
afterwards.

**It may be.  I went to the Carnation site, looking for somewhere I
could by Carnation Malted Milk, natural flavor.  There was no
indication that they sold it.  I wrote them and they wrote back that
they had no idea who sold their products retail.  Of course they could
know if they asked.  Giant used to be the onlyl store around here that
sold it, and there are plenty of Giants, so it was no problem.  Then
they were sold and they stopped.  The new Safeway doesn't have the
chocolate variety (which is nothing like the natural. It's just sugar
with some chocolate coloring), but it does by golly have the natural.

My last resort was going to be to buy some from beer or bread
companies online.  But I think there was a minimum of 10 pounds, and
it doesn't keep that well.  At least one jar of Carnation must have
gotten damp before I finished it, because it turned into the hardest
substance known to man.  It was amazing.

But my point is that the product is sold, even though Carnation says
not a word about it on their website, which has pictures of other
products.  What seems like all their products.  Why would that be?

There are two alternatives.  Waterless hand cleaner that they sell at
autoparts stores.

Taking liquid dish soap, in advance, and rubbing it in like hand
lotion.  It fills the fingerprints and other cracks, the oil and dirt
sits on top of the soap, and when you wash your hands afterwards, most
of it comes off/out.

s/ meirman    If you are emailing me please  
say if you are posting the same response.

Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years
            Indianapolis,   7 years
            Chicago,        6 years
            Brooklyn NY    12 years
            Baltimore      20 years
Bill Schnakenberg - 04 Jan 2004 15:02 GMT
>In alt.english.usage on Sat, 3 Jan 2004 19:49:51 -0800 "Skitt"
><skitt99@comcast.net> posted:
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>Lava, that my mother liked.  Feels good to use and hands feel good
>afterwards.

I use an orange smelling hand cleaner called "Fast Orange" by Permatex.
It contains aloe, lanolin, jojoba, and some kind of pumice.
It comes in a gallon sized orange plastic pump bottle and it works very
well on grease and paint. I got it in Home Depot or Lowes, as I don't
recall.

>**It may be.  I went to the Carnation site, looking for somewhere I
>could by Carnation Malted Milk, natural flavor.  There was no
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>             Baltimore      20 years
>  
meirman - 05 Jan 2004 07:04 GMT
In alt.english.usage on Sun, 04 Jan 2004 15:02:01 GMT Bill
Schnakenberg <willshak@frontiernet.net> posted:

>>What I don't see is Boraxo powdered hand cleaner.  It's great, and I
>>hope somehow it is still made**.  I have most of a box?, because I
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>well on grease and paint. I got it in Home Depot or Lowes, as I don't
>recall.

Good to know.  I think I've seen it but didn't have an endorsement
before.

I also see Skitt has solved my Boraxo problem.

What a group!

s/ meirman    If you are emailing me please  
say if you are posting the same response.

Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years
            Indianapolis,   7 years
            Chicago,        6 years
            Brooklyn NY    12 years
            Baltimore      20 years
Tony Cooper - 05 Jan 2004 07:36 GMT
>In alt.english.usage on Sun, 04 Jan 2004 15:02:01 GMT Bill
>Schnakenberg <willshak@frontiernet.net> posted:
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>Good to know.  I think I've seen it but didn't have an endorsement
>before.

"Fast Orange" is one of the many cleaning products that have a
d-limonene base.  "Simple Green" is another, but it's not a hand
cleaner.  You can thank the Florida orange growers for providing you
with d-limonene products.  http://www.floridachemical.com/
Dr Robin Bignall - 05 Jan 2004 13:51 GMT
>>In alt.english.usage on Sun, 04 Jan 2004 15:02:01 GMT Bill
>>Schnakenberg <willshak@frontiernet.net> posted:
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>cleaner.  You can thank the Florida orange growers for providing you
>with d-limonene products.  http://www.floridachemical.com/

That orange-based cleaner was (possibly still is) available from Lakeland,
a large mail-order company dealing in household goods here in the UK, had
'orange' in its name, and was very good.

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Robin Bignall

Quiet part of Hertfordshire
England

Peter Duncanson - 05 Jan 2004 15:13 GMT
>>>In alt.english.usage on Sun, 04 Jan 2004 15:02:01 GMT Bill
>>>Schnakenberg <willshak@frontiernet.net> posted:
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>a large mail-order company dealing in household goods here in the UK, had
>'orange' in its name, and was very good.

There may be two different products here.

Fast Orange is made by Loctite (better known for adhesives).
http://www.loctite.co.uk/PRODUCTS/7850.htm
Loctite 7850 'Fast Orange'
Natural Citrus Hand Cleaner

Lakeland does not seem to sell Fast Orange but does sell Orange Clean from
Orange Glo Europe Ltd, which is a surface cleaner rather than a hand
cleaner.
http://www.greatcleaners.co.uk/ouk_retail/ogi_productDirectory.asp
Orange Clean® Multi Purpose Cleaner & Degreaser

Signature

Peter Duncanson
UK
(posting from a.e.u)

Dr Robin Bignall - 06 Jan 2004 02:27 GMT
>>That orange-based cleaner was (possibly still is) available from Lakeland,
>>a large mail-order company dealing in household goods here in the UK, had
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>http://www.greatcleaners.co.uk/ouk_retail/ogi_productDirectory.asp
>Orange Clean® Multi Purpose Cleaner & Degreaser

That's the one. I should have written "that sort of orange cleaner..."

Signature

wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall

Quiet part of Hertfordshire
England

Skitt - 05 Jan 2004 00:05 GMT
> "Skitt" posted:

>>> Haven't seen this one yet, but what about the 20-mule team on the
>>> Boraxo commercials, in the 50's.  If it were a tv show, I'd think
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> What I don't see is Boraxo powdered hand cleaner.  It's great, and I
> hope somehow it is still made**.

Of course it is.  Check Google.
http://www.thedialstore.com/product_detail.cfm?prd_id=2340000301
Signature

Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/

meirman - 05 Jan 2004 07:02 GMT
In alt.english.usage on Sun, 4 Jan 2004 16:05:40 -0800 "Skitt"
<skitt99@comcast.net> posted:

>> "Skitt" posted:
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>Of course it is.  Check Google.
>http://www.thedialstore.com/product_detail.cfm?prd_id=2340000301

That's great.  Thanks.

I looked at the "personal cleansing" tab of the page you gave, and it
had dial and Coast and Tone, but no Boraxo.

I looked in the history, and it said when that became a part of the
company, but it's less likely they would say when they stopped selling
something.

And I actually "site search"ed at thedialstore website and got 2 hits
on Boraxo, one from their history, and one from the faq (that actually
uses Borax 10 times meaning the laundry detergent, but doesn't use the
word Boraxo once), and nothing indicating Boraxo was still sold, and
certainly not the page you just provided.

Of course often on a lot of websites it seems that when they say
search, all you get to search is some set of files that no one is
interested in.  They don't let you search the text of their webpages.
Have you noticed that?

You shouldn't have to search in google if you're searching in their
webpage!

What does this mean? Specifically, what is a pouf:

What do you use to apply soap in the shower?
Loofah           9.85%
Pouf           28.59%
Washcloth       26.09%
Two or more of the above items      
           17.85%
None of the above      
           17.61%
Total 2476 votes  

They also provide a search thingy for looking for what you want to use
for personal cleaning.   It gave three choices and I chose "a hand
soap to be used at the sink".  That gave four choices: Helping to
prevent skin dryness; Beautifying your home decor; killing bacteria
and germs at a value price; Killing 10X more bacteria and germs.

They didn't provide "getting your hands clean" as a choice.

 ---

Unlike Carnation, this website has a store finder!  I knew it was
possible..  Apparently the closest store for Boraxo is 7 miles away,
but for something I only buy every 6 months or year it's well worth it
to go 7 miles. It's nothing.  I'll see tomorrow if they sell it at the
local Giant.  (It's interesting that I found a Click and Clack
recommended garage that is in this same tiny town (not even a town),
and their finder said that it was 3.3 miles from me.   One of the
numbers is quite wrong. It's 7 miles.)

The store finder says it is searching specifically for Boraxo.  Once
I wanted a particular trailer hitch or rear tray for my car (there was
somethign special about it) and from the webste I got a list of
dealers in Baltmore, most of them on the east side near I-95.  I went
to all of them and none of them had the hitch I wanted. Most of them
didn't carry anything from the company I was looking for.  One guy had
been the owner for 20 years and said he had never carried anything
they sold.

s/ meirman    If you are emailing me please  
say if you are posting the same response.

Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years
            Indianapolis,   7 years
            Chicago,        6 years
            Brooklyn NY    12 years
            Baltimore      20 years
Dr Robin Bignall - 05 Jan 2004 13:59 GMT
>> "Skitt" posted:
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>Of course it is.  Check Google.
>http://www.thedialstore.com/product_detail.cfm?prd_id=2340000301

As an aside, I find that gel products such as "Swarfega" get engine grime
off the hands very well. A mechanic's tip which I learned 50 years ago is
to dig the ends of fingers and thumbs into a cake of hard soap before
starting, so that a bit of soap remains under the finger nails. This
eliminates the scrubbing with a stiff brush, or using a nail file. Most
rubber gloves are too thick to use with tiny parts, and the sort that
surgeons use are too fragile for work on motors.

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Quiet part of Hertfordshire
England

Mickwick - 06 Jan 2004 13:28 GMT
In alt.usage.english, Dr Robin Bignall wrote:

>As an aside, I find that gel products such as "Swarfega" get engine grime
>off the hands very well.

If you don't have any Swarfega, butter is very effective at removing
engine grime.

Signature

Mickwick

Mike Lyle - 06 Jan 2004 18:02 GMT
> In alt.usage.english, Dr Robin Bignall wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> If you don't have any Swarfega, butter is very effective at removing
> engine grime.

Especially if you add a teaspoonful of sugar. All will remember that
Jeeves recommended butter to Bertie to get the black boot-polish off
his face: I'm a little surprised that he didn't seem to know about the
sugar.

Mike.
Dr Robin Bignall - 07 Jan 2004 00:05 GMT
>In alt.usage.english, Dr Robin Bignall wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>If you don't have any Swarfega, butter is very effective at removing
>engine grime.

It makes rotten sandwiches, though. "Waste not, want not", is yet another
Old English Adage.

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wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall

Quiet part of Hertfordshire
England

M. J. Powell - 06 Jan 2004 13:56 GMT
>>> "Skitt" posted:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>rubber gloves are too thick to use with tiny parts, and the sort that
>surgeons use are too fragile for work on motors.

I thought that Swarfega was a barrier cream, ie you use it before you
start?

Mike
Signature

M.J.Powell

Wood Avens - 06 Jan 2004 15:05 GMT
>I thought that Swarfega was a barrier cream, ie you use it before you
>start?

No, it's a delicious-looking green gel which you scoop out with your
oily mitts and rub in, and then wash off.  Highly effective (though if
butter is really as good, it might be cheaper).

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Katy Jennison

spamtrap: remove number to reply

dcw - 06 Jan 2004 15:08 GMT
>No, it's a delicious-looking green gel which you scoop out with your
>oily mitts and rub in, and then wash off.  Highly effective (though if
>butter is really as good, it might be cheaper).

Though it does introduce an extra step into the process: washing off
the butter.

    David
david56 - 08 Jan 2004 19:33 GMT
mike@DeLeTe.pickmere.demon.co.uk spake thus:

> I thought that Swarfega was a barrier cream, ie you use it before you
> start?

In my printing-with-lead days, Swarfega was the standard product for
removing printing ink from the hands.  You couldn't put it on before,
or you'd get it all over the paper.

Signature

David
=====

Brian Wickham - 02 Jan 2004 05:04 GMT
>My opinion is that mules don't pull wagons, but are pack animals, and the
>art of muleskinning is in precisely loading the pack so the mule's skin
>isn't rubbed off halfway down the trail (you have to kill the mule and dump
>the goods). Anyone who has hiked with a backpack will appreciate the art.

I have to assume that many here have never heard of a 20-mule team
borax wagon.  It used to be the logo of Boraxo which sponsored the TV
program "Death Valley Days".  One of their product names was "20-Mule
Team Borax". Just about every American who watched television in the
1950s has heard the story of, and seen,  20-mule teams.  You might
also want to Google the lyrics to the song "Muleskinner Blues" which,
in its various versions, has ample references to muleskinners driving
mule  wagons on freight routes.

A teamster would have had to know how to care for his mules as well as
drive them, so a muleskinner is a person who knows every aspect of how
to handle mules professionally.

There has never been any doubt as to what a muleskinner does, until
this thread.

For those who alluded to mule use in the US Army being in the far
distant past: it's not for nothing that the 55mm howitzer is called a
"pack" howitzer.  The thing was designed to break down into parts
easily packed into rough terrain, specifically by mules.  I believe
that it was still handled this way in the Korean War many years after
the Army was mechanized.

Brian Wickham
Spehro Pefhany - 02 Jan 2004 14:00 GMT
>I have to assume that many here have never heard of a 20-mule team
>borax wagon.  It used to be the logo of Boraxo which sponsored the TV
>program "Death Valley Days".  One of their product names was "20-Mule
>Team Borax". Just about every American who watched television in the
>1950s has heard the story of, and seen,  20-mule teams.  

I believe there is a display of this product at the visitor center in
Death Valley National Park.

http://www.americanwest.com/deathvalley/
http://www.scvhistory.com/scvhistory/borax-20muleteam.htm

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
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John Dean - 02 Jan 2004 02:54 GMT
>> sl560_delete_this_@columbia.edu spake thus:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> physical sense, earlier than that. The mule-skinners beat the mules
> with a whip, that's no surprise.

My guess - that skill with a whip was a prerequisite and a driver who could
flick off a patch of skin at will was sufficiently dextrous to be a
role-model.

> Next: did cattle rustlers actually rustle, and did cowpunchers
> literally punch cows in the nose?

'Rustlers' were apparently 'vigorous men' in late C19 USA according to OED
and this later became the term for cattle thieves, maybe from the sense of
'rustling up' a herd.
I've a recollection that cowpunchers *did* punch cows to drive them back or
generally bend them to their will. As Cowpokes literally prodded them with
sticks to get them where they wanted them to be (like onto a railroad car.)
No doubt they kicked them too and whipped them with lariats. Not a
sentimental breed. I recollect a vividly-drawn scene in Jack Schaeffer's
'Monte Walsh' where our hero is trying to break a particularly vigorous
bronco and pulls out his Colt and whangs the animal between the ears with
the barrel to discourage it some.
--
John 'Wanted to be Rowdy Yates' Dean
Oxford
De-frag to reply
meirman - 02 Jan 2004 05:15 GMT
In alt.english.usage on Fri, 2 Jan 2004 02:54:04 -0000 "John Dean"
<john-dean@frag.lineone.net> posted:

>> Next: did cattle rustlers actually rustle, and did cowpunchers
>> literally punch cows in the nose?
>
>'Rustlers' were apparently 'vigorous men' in late C19 USA according to OED
>and this later became the term for cattle thieves, maybe from the sense of
>'rustling up' a herd.

Is this like rustling up breakfast, or some scrambled eggs?  That
meaning of the word is supposed to preced rustling cattle?

>I've a recollection that cowpunchers *did* punch cows to drive them back or
>generally bend them to their will. As Cowpokes literally prodded them with
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>bronco and pulls out his Colt and whangs the animal between the ears with
>the barrel to discourage it some.

"No horses were injured during the posting of this thread."

s/ meirman    If you are emailing me please  
say if you are posting the same response.

Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years
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            Chicago,        6 years
            Brooklyn NY    12 years
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John Dean - 02 Jan 2004 12:56 GMT
> In alt.english.usage on Fri, 2 Jan 2004 02:54:04 -0000 "John Dean"
> <john-dean@frag.lineone.net> posted:
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Is this like rustling up breakfast, or some scrambled eggs?  That
> meaning of the word is supposed to preced rustling cattle?

Like 'I'm gonna rustle up a herd and take it to Abilene'
And so I wish you a Loving Goodnight
--
John 'or Sedalia. or Dodge' Dean
Oxford
De-frag to reply
Mike Lyle - 02 Jan 2004 12:53 GMT
[...]
> I've a recollection that cowpunchers *did* punch cows to drive them back or
> generally bend them to their will. As Cowpokes literally prodded them with
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> bronco and pulls out his Colt and whangs the animal between the ears with
> the barrel to discourage it some.

I've often enough had to punch a cow: you don't do it very hard,
though, so they don't seem to mind much, and it usually gets them off
your foot.

Mike.
Christopher Green - 02 Jan 2004 19:39 GMT
[snip]
> My guess - that skill with a whip was a prerequisite and a driver who could
> flick off a patch of skin at will was sufficiently dextrous to be a
> role-model.

This is exactly the explanation I have heard from a number of Oregon
Trail re-enactors. It's also consistent with Van Morrison's
"Muleskinner Blues", in which the out-of-work mule driver boasts, "I
can carve my initials/On an old mule's behind".

Signature

Chris Green

Raymond S. Wise - 02 Jan 2004 05:42 GMT
> > sl560_delete_this_@columbia.edu spake thus:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> Next: did cattle rustlers actually rustle, and did cowpunchers literally
> punch cows in the nose?

I was amused to see that in *The Century Dictionary* (
www.century-dictionary.com ) the definition of "mule-skinner," "A prairie
mule-driver.  [Western U.S.]" was followed by the definition of
"mule-spinner," "One who spins with a mule."

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Minneapolis, Minnesota USA

E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com

Sara Moffat Lorimer - 01 Jan 2004 19:59 GMT
I wrote, in part:

> > It took me a while to find out what "muleskinner" means (mule driver)
> > but I don't seem to have found any reliable info on the etymology... can
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> dim recollection of reading in a book about the American frontier that
> this was so...

Found it, p. 58 of the paperback edition of Ian Frazier's "Great
Plains," although he doesn't actually use the word "muleskinner."

"Many [buffalo] skinners used mules to pull the hides off... They wore
heavy clothes which they seldom changed. Dried blood caked in their
beards. When a group of them walked up to a bar, they would reach into
their clothes, and the last one to catch a louse had to pay. The
prostitues who catered to them were a special type."

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Spehro Pefhany - 01 Jan 2004 20:32 GMT
>I wrote, in part:
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>their clothes, and the last one to catch a louse had to pay. The
>prostitues who catered to them were a special type."

Probably they were lousy in bed.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
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Dena Jo - 01 Jan 2004 20:39 GMT
>>"Many [buffalo] skinners used mules to pull the hides off... They
>>wore heavy clothes which they seldom changed. Dried blood caked in
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Probably they were lousy in bed.

Nit-picker.

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