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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2004Russian Roulette?
According to news reports in the Indy today, a vacation bus crash that caused the deaths of several passengers was caused by a person, not quite in his right mind, who was running across the front of the bus at the last moment, causing it to swerve. They described him as playing Russian Roulette. But this surely is a very specific 'game' in which one cylinder of a revolver is loaded, the cylinder spun, the gun applied to the head, and the trigger pulled. The name of that game that he was playing, whether with a bus, train or car, is Chicken, is it not?  Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England >According to news reports in the Indy today, a vacation bus crash that >caused the deaths of several passengers was caused by a person, not quite [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >and the trigger pulled. The name of that game that he was playing, whether >with a bus, train or car, is Chicken, is it not? "Russian Roulette" is sometimes used by analogy in other circumstances. However, both Chicken and RR are gambling 'games'. The man in the story was not gambling. He was trying to be kill himself. From the Telegraph http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/01/02/wsaf02.xml&sShee t=/news/2004/01/02/ixnewstop.html <quote> The pedestrian, who was killed, was named as Pelepele Miya. Buyisiwe Miya, who saw the crash said: "The man was walking around telling people he wanted to kill himself but no one took him seriously. "Suddenly I saw him in the road walking in front of cars. Most cars were stopping or going round him. "The bus tried to avoid him but the trailer hit him. The bus swerved across the road and into a ditch." </quote> Russian Roulette might be a usable description if the definition is stretched to include the form in which the trigger is pulled repeatedly until death occurs. But that is not really RR. SignaturePeter Duncanson UK (posting from a.e.u) >>According to news reports in the Indy today, a vacation bus crash that >>caused the deaths of several passengers was caused by a person, not quite [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >the road and into a ditch." ></quote> Strangely enough, The Times didn't carry this full account of the incident until this morning, so when I posted the other day, it sounded as though he had tried it with several vehicles as though he was playing a game. >Russian Roulette might be a usable description if the definition is >stretched to include the form in which the trigger is pulled repeatedly >until death occurs. But that is not really RR. That's suicide. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England > According to news reports in the Indy today, a vacation bus crash > that caused the deaths of several passengers was caused by a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > trigger pulled. The name of that game that he was playing, whether > with a bus, train or car, is Chicken, is it not? I thought Chicken was two cars intentionally destined for a head-on collision whose purpose is to see who swerves first. As for Russian roulette, this is from M-W 10th. The second meaning seems to apply: Main Entry: Russian roulette Function: noun Date: 1937 1 : an act of bravado consisting of spinning the cylinder of a revolver loaded with one cartridge, pointing the muzzle at one's own head, and pulling the trigger 2 : something resembling Russian roulette in its potential for disaster <taking cocaine is playing Russian roulette -- Jonathan Nicholas> SignatureDena Jo Delete "delete.this.for.email" for email. >> According to news reports in the Indy today, a vacation bus crash >> that caused the deaths of several passengers was caused by a [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >I thought Chicken was two cars intentionally destined for a head-on >collision whose purpose is to see who swerves first. The first time I heard of it (or saw it in some movie) decades ago it was disposable hot-rods racing towards the edge of a cliff. The first driver to leap out of his vehicle before it went over the cliff was the chicken. >As for Russian roulette, this is from M-W 10th. The second meaning >seems to apply: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >2 : something resembling Russian roulette in its potential for disaster ><taking cocaine is playing Russian roulette -- Jonathan Nicholas> That second meaning could cover all sorts of mechanised travel, these days. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England docrobin@ntlworld.com spake thus: > >> According to news reports in the Indy today, a vacation bus crash > >> that caused the deaths of several passengers was caused by a [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > disposable hot-rods racing towards the edge of a cliff. The first driver to > leap out of his vehicle before it went over the cliff was the chicken. That'll be Rebel Without a Cause. SignatureDavid ===== >docrobin@ntlworld.com spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >That'll be Rebel Without a Cause. That's the one. I haven't seen that film since it was first released. Didn't James Dean think it was all just a game until one of his friends was killed? Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England docrobin@ntlworld.com spake thus: > >docrobin@ntlworld.com spake thus: > > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Didn't James Dean think it was all just a game until one of his friends was > killed? It was intended to be a game - the friend failed to get out in time because his coat caught on the door handle. SignatureDavid ===== In alt.english.usage on 2 Jan 2004 17:24:44 GMT Dena Jo <TPUBGTH.delete.this.for.email@yahoo.com> posted: >> According to news reports in the Indy today, a vacation bus crash >> that caused the deaths of several passengers was caused by a [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >I thought Chicken was two cars intentionally destined for a head-on >collision whose purpose is to see who swerves first. If the guy were running towards the bus, that would be a lot like Chicken. It's a shame the bus driver tried to avoid him. Why should his life be spared and the innocent people on the bus killed? Although his life was spared by the bus, he was killed by another vehicle I read. The "pedestrian"'s epitaph should read, "He died as he lived. A screw-up." I had a friend, with AIDS, who, after several bouts in the hospital in one year, committed suicide, may he rest in peace. He had the decency to jump off a roof into his aparment building's courtyard/airshaft. Much bigger than an airshaft but someplace that in practice never has anyone there. He didn't kill or risk anyone else by his action. >As for Russian roulette, this is from M-W 10th. The second meaning >seems to apply: What about people who play Russion roulette with a semi-automatic pistol? >Main Entry: Russian roulette >Function: noun [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >2 : something resembling Russian roulette in its potential for disaster ><taking cocaine is playing Russian roulette -- Jonathan Nicholas> I would have objected to that use too, even if Jonathan Nicholas, whoever he is, thought it to be ok. It doesn't have the notion of clearly winning or losing that RR has. And I think the odds are a lot better with cocaine** than they are with RR, where the odds are usually only 5 chances of winning out of 6. (It's not clear which result is winning and which is losing. Also, some revolvers hold 8 bullets.) **I don't use or recommend drugs. Never have. But I still find the odds relevant. s/ meirman If you are emailing me please say if you are posting the same response. Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years Indianapolis, 7 years Chicago, 6 years Brooklyn NY 12 years Baltimore 20 years >Although his life was spared by the bus, he was killed by another >vehicle I read. He was hit by the baggage trailer towed by the bus. A "real sting in the tail". SignaturePeter Duncanson UK (posting from a.e.u) In alt.english.usage on Sun, 04 Jan 2004 14:21:57 +0000 Peter Duncanson <mail@peterduncanson.net> posted: >>Although his life was spared by the bus, he was killed by another >>vehicle I read. > >He was hit by the baggage trailer towed by the bus. >A "real sting in the tail". I wanted to say car or truck, but couldn't remember which it was. No wonder. Is'n't it funny that when people testify in court, etc. they say things like "I exited the vehicle". (sp?) I was trying to avoid that use of "vehicle". s/ meirman If you are emailing me please say if you are posting the same response. Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years Indianapolis, 7 years Chicago, 6 years Brooklyn NY 12 years Baltimore 20 years >Is'n't it funny that when people testify >in court, etc. they say things like >"I exited the vehicle". > (sp?) Yes. I suppose it's the formality of the court situation that encourages them to make their language more formal. SignaturePeter Duncanson UK (posting from a.e.u) >>Is'n't it funny that when people testify >>in court, etc. they say things like [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Yes. I suppose it's the formality of the court situation that encourages >them to make their language more formal. Particularly cops. "I was proceeding in a westerly direction along the A1170 when I apprehended the accused committing a misdemeanour, upon which time I duly cautioned and arrested him". Means "I was walking along the High Street, saw this yob pinching something, and nicked him." Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England "Dr Robin Bignall" typed: >>>Is'n't it funny that when people testify in court, etc. they say >>>things like "I exited the vehicle". [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > walking along the High Street, saw this yob pinching something, and > nicked him." You sound experienced. SignatureAyaz Ahmed Khan Yours Forever in, | Webmaster, Cyberspace. | http://adic.netfirms.com/fastce/home.html >"Dr Robin Bignall" typed: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >You sound experienced. I read a lot of crime fiction. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England "Dr Robin Bignall" typed: >>"Dr Robin Bignall" typed: >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > I read a lot of crime fiction. Is that why you are so cruel? SignatureAyaz Ahmed Khan Yours Forever in, | Webmaster, Cyberspace. | http://adic.netfirms.com/fastce/home.html >"Dr Robin Bignall" typed: > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > >Is that why you are so cruel? Cruel? Me? Have you been talking to my inamoratas, perchance? Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England "Dr Robin Bignall" typed: >>"Dr Robin Bignall" typed: >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Cruel? Me? Have you been talking to my inamoratas, perchance? Maybe. You must keep them in your control, for they make you vulnerable. SignatureAyaz Ahmed Khan Yours Forever in, | Webmaster, Cyberspace. | http://adic.netfirms.com/fastce/home.html >"Dr Robin Bignall" typed: > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >Maybe. You must keep them in your control, for they make you >vulnerable. Any man who can keep an intelligent inamorata under control without using methods banned by all organisations concerned with outlawing inhumane activities, is a better man than I, Gunga Din. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England >>"Dr Robin Bignall" typed: >> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >methods banned by all organisations concerned with outlawing inhumane >activities, is a better man than I, Gunga Din. There is an important benefit to having no control over one's inamorata. One cannot be held responsible for her actions. SignaturePeter Duncanson UK (posting from a.e.u) "Peter Duncanson" typed: >>>>>> I read a lot of crime fiction. >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > There is an important benefit to having no control over one's > inamorata. One cannot be held responsible for her actions. One has to have a _her_ to exploit this benefit, hasn't one, unless I have boarded the wrong bus[1]? foot-note: [1] meaning, unless I have misunderstood you. SignatureAyaz Ahmed Khan Yours Forever in, | Webmaster, Cyberspace. | http://adic.netfirms.com/fastce/home.html >"Peter Duncanson" typed: > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >One has to have a _her_ to exploit this benefit, hasn't one, unless >I have boarded the wrong bus[1]? They will come in time, Ayaz. At least, I hope inamoratas will. One can't depend on buses. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England "Dr Robin Bignall" typed: >>>>Any man who can keep an intelligent inamorata under control >>>>without using methods banned by all organisations concerned with [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > They will come in time, Ayaz. At least, I hope inamoratas will. One > can't depend on buses. Ah, well, you know, I have been waiting for a lot many things. SignatureAyaz Ahmed Khan Yours Forever in, | Webmaster, Cyberspace. | http://adic.netfirms.com/fastce/home.html "Dr Robin Bignall" typed: >>>>> I read a lot of crime fiction. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > using methods banned by all organisations concerned with outlawing > inhumane activities, is a better man than I, Gunga Din. <speechless> SignatureAyaz Ahmed Khan Yours Forever in, | Webmaster, Cyberspace. | http://adic.netfirms.com/fastce/home.html In alt.english.usage on Mon, 05 Jan 2004 14:09:42 +0000 Dr Robin Bignall <docrobin@ntlworld.com> posted: >>>Is'n't it funny that when people testify >>>in court, etc. they say things like [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >time I duly cautioned and arrested him". Means "I was walking along the >High Street, saw this yob pinching something, and nicked him." Actually, I wasn't counting cops because I think they are taught to speak like that, required to speak like that, (probably?) for some good reason. And when civilians talk that way, I'm not sure I would call it more formal. I would just say that they are imitating the cops for some reason, based on seeing cops talk on tv. Is that because they think the cops are being formal? I guess Peter would say yes. s/ meirman If you are emailing me please say if you are posting the same response. Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years Indianapolis, 7 years Chicago, 6 years Brooklyn NY 12 years Baltimore 20 years >In alt.english.usage on Mon, 05 Jan 2004 14:09:42 +0000 Dr Robin >Bignall <docrobin@ntlworld.com> posted: [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >reason, based on seeing cops talk on tv. Is that because they think >the cops are being formal? I guess Peter would say yes. Er, um, maybe. Another thing occurred to me while reading your post. In the British system a witness will frequently (always?) have provided the police with a signed statement. I have the impression that these are often compiled by witness and a police officer working together. The witness provides the content and the officer acts as a style guide. This process might, rightly or wrongly, give the witness an impression of what style of language to use in court. SignaturePeter Duncanson UK (posting from a.e.u) In alt.english.usage on Mon, 05 Jan 2004 17:58:37 +0000 Peter Duncanson <mail@peterduncanson.net> posted: >>In alt.english.usage on Mon, 05 Jan 2004 14:09:42 +0000 Dr Robin >>Bignall <docrobin@ntlworld.com> posted: [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >the officer acts as a style guide. This process might, rightly or wrongly, >give the witness an impression of what style of language to use in court. That's a very good point. It also pays to say the same thing at a trial that you told the police at the time. ;) (On the People's Court, a tv show with real cases but about civil matters, the plaintiffs and respondents not rarely tell a very different story from what they wrote in their sworn complaint or answer.) s/ meirman If you are emailing me please say if you are posting the same response. Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years Indianapolis, 7 years Chicago, 6 years Brooklyn NY 12 years Baltimore 20 years > (On the People's Court, a tv show with real cases but about civil > matters, the plaintiffs and respondents not rarely tell a very > different story from what they wrote in their sworn complaint or > answer.) We had that over here for a while. The judge's name was Wapner, I think. It was replaced by Judge Judy. What a self-opinionated bitch she could be. Funny though. m. In alt.english.usage on Mon, 5 Jan 2004 22:12:54 -0000 "mUs1Ka" <mUs1Ka@exite.com> posted: >> (On the People's Court, a tv show with real cases but about civil >> matters, the plaintiffs and respondents not rarely tell a very >> different story from what they wrote in their sworn complaint or >> answer.) >> >We had that over here for a while. The judge's name was Wapner, I think. It Wapner was the first one, and the best one. He would actually cite the law. I think a lot of viewers think the judges on these tv shows are just doing what they think best, regardless of the law, because they never mention what the law says. Sometimes I think that's what they're doing. >was replaced by Judge Judy. What a self-opinionated bitch she could be. That's a different show. "Judge Judy". She's still on in the US. In fact she's on at this moment. I'll admit that things are said by everyone that are omitted by the time the show gets on the air, so sometimes she may have important info that I don't have, but despite that, I'm convinced she's wrong sometimes abot the facts and doesn't have enough info to be as sure as she is a lot of the time. She's not as smart as she thinks she is. She has a few paradigms (did someone say that word is obsolete now?) and when she does't have enough info, she applies them and believes them. She can't get any negative feedback on her judgments because she ignores what they say, and never sees them again. I try to ignore those cases and enjoy the others. I like anything that is in a question and answer format. If they take the same newspaper article and rewrite it to be question and answer, I'm inclined to read it 10 times as much. >Funny though. >m. s/ meirman If you are emailing me please say if you are posting the same response. Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years Indianapolis, 7 years Chicago, 6 years Brooklyn NY 12 years Baltimore 20 years > In alt.english.usage on Mon, 5 Jan 2004 22:12:54 -0000 "mUs1Ka" > <mUs1Ka@exite.com> posted: [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > That's a different show. "Judge Judy". Yes, her show, however, did replace 'The People's Court' on UK TV. We only ever saw Wapner, over here. m. In alt.english.usage on Mon, 5 Jan 2004 23:22:56 -0000 "mUs1Ka" <mUs1Ka@exite.com> posted: >> In alt.english.usage on Mon, 5 Jan 2004 22:12:54 -0000 "mUs1Ka" >> <mUs1Ka@exite.com> posted: [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >We only ever saw Wapner, over here. >m. I think there was a while the People's Court was off here too. Then ex-Mayor Koch of NYC was the judge, then Judy Sheindlin's husband was (he was terrible), and now Marilyn Milyan. She's actually the best one of them all, except Wapner. I think except for Mayor Koch, they were all government judges at one time. s/ meirman If you are emailing me please say if you are posting the same response. Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years Indianapolis, 7 years Chicago, 6 years Brooklyn NY 12 years Baltimore 20 years >>In alt.english.usage on Mon, 05 Jan 2004 14:09:42 +0000 Dr Robin >>Bignall <docrobin@ntlworld.com> posted: [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >the officer acts as a style guide. This process might, rightly or wrongly, >give the witness an impression of what style of language to use in court. This used to happen, and witness statements and confessions were often "massaged" by the police. Since the Police and Criminal Evidence Act (PACE, 1984), all statements by alleged perps are supposed to be tape-recorded and transcribed. Confessions are no apparently longer accepted by courts, even if signed. http://www.magnacartaplus.org/bills/civ-lib/PACE-act.htm is one of many sites on PACE. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England docrobin@ntlworld.com spake thus: > >Another thing occurred to me while reading your post. In the British system > >a witness will frequently (always?) have provided the police with a signed [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > transcribed. Confessions are no apparently longer accepted by courts, even > if signed. I'm sure you didn't mean that. Although I understand that Scottish law does not permit conviction on the basis of a single uncorroborated witness, including the accused, so an unsupported confession can not be accepted as guilt. SignatureDavid ===== >docrobin@ntlworld.com spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >uncorroborated witness, including the accused, so an unsupported >confession can not be accepted as guilt. Yes I did. Signed confessions (without tape-recorded or video backup to show that it was obtained under PACE regulations) are not accepted as evidence of guilt any more, so I've read.[1] There have been too many successful appeals against life sentences for murder during the past 30 years, where the only evidence was a supposed confession often written in police gobbledegook, or a statement from another villain who has 'grassed up' the alleged in order to get the police to take a more lenient approach to him. [1] And no, I have no references. That damnable Times database that costs money to use is a real annoyance, particularly when I've been reading the paper for so many years. I'm now saving choice clippings, but paying for stuff that I've almost certainly bought in the past is a no-no. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England docrobin@ntlworld.com spake thus: > >docrobin@ntlworld.com spake thus: > > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > show that it was obtained under PACE regulations) are not accepted as > evidence of guilt any more, so I've read.[1] As I get older, I think I am becoming more literal, but you said "accepted by the courts". To take it to the extreme, if I signed a confession and was prosecuted, and did not retract my confession, would the court accept it? There is a huge difference between the court not relying solely on a contested confession to support a conviction, and "not accepting" a confession. SignatureDavid ===== >docrobin@ntlworld.com spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >court not relying solely on a contested confession to support a >conviction, and "not accepting" a confession. I see what you mean, and I don't know. It might depend on the severity of the charge. After almost any murder, police find all sorts of people crawling out of the woodwork wanting to confess to it. Cops usually leave some details out of the press reports, particularly of the MO, so wannabe confessors can usually be eliminated at an early stage. Forensic scientists often say that once a person has visited a place, they always leave something of themselves there. With modern techniques, particularly DNA, they have managed to open a few old cases and either prove that the person who was jailed was not the one who dunnit, or that some witness or other person has a DNA match. This is particularly true of the States, where the FBI routinely collect DNA from crime scenes and suspects. My feeling is that without some corroborative evidence, the CPS would not take a case forward to court even with such a confession. Any comments from Don would be welcome. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England > >docrobin@ntlworld.com spake thus: > > [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > forward to court even with such a confession. Any comments from Don would > be welcome. The situation in England should be as this case http://www.online.ie/news/viewer.adp?article=%203040050 from Ireland. No - there are people every week being encarcerated on the say-so of a DNA profile and nothing else. DNA except for twins is unique but DNA profiles are NOT unique. What they aren't telling you about DNA profiles and what Special Branch don't want you to know. http://www.nutteing2.freeservers.com/dnapr.htm or nutteingd in a search engine e mail nutteing2@quickfindit.....com (just one dot) |
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