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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2004Long sentences
I wonder why it is that I rarely see very long sentences in modern literature. Could it be that today's reader just can't comprehend them in their totality. What skills did the people of yesterday have, that I don't seem to have today ? Less distractions, perhaps ? Here is an example, written by John W. Burgess in the article "Recent Changes in American Constitutional Theory" (Chapter 5), 1923 I had to read this 20-line piece (2400 lines in all) at least twice before I fully understood it, and thankfully it didn't contain any unfamiliar words. In struggling to fully understand it, you may differ, I tend to loose track of its context, but maybe that's just me. <quote> If, in the opinion of any citizen of the United States, or of any person subject to the jurisdiction of the Government of the United States, this Government should undertake, by any of its acts or commands, to deprive such citizen or person of the protection of any of his constitutional immunities against governmental power or suppress or suspend their exercise, it was the constitutional right of such citizen or person to offer judicial resistance to such act or command, either by submitting under protest and reservation of rights and then bringing suit against the Government for restitution, and thus invoking judicial decision of the question between the individual and the Government as to his constitutional immunities, or by a passive disobedience of the governmental act or command, and thus exposing himself to suit before the Courts by the Government or to seizure of his property or personal arrest by it, both of which latter measures would also result, at the will of the individual, in proceedings before the regular Courts where he might raise the question between himself and the Government as to his constitutional immunities -- the first through a suit instituted by the individual against the Government for the restitution of his property, and the second by means of an application for the writ of habeas corpus, the privileges of which are assured to him by the Constitution, except in case of invasion or rebellion, on the theatre of actual conflict. </quote> > I wonder why it is that I rarely see very long sentences in modern > literature. Could it be that today's reader just can't comprehend > them in their totality. What skills did the people of yesterday have, > that I don't seem to have today ? Less distractions, perhaps ? _Fewer_ And what's with the space before the question mark? > Here is an example, written by John W. Burgess in the article "Recent > Changes in American Constitutional Theory" (Chapter 5), 1923 > > I had to read this 20-line piece (2400 lines in all) at least twice before > I fully understood it, and thankfully it didn't contain any unfamiliar words. > In struggling to fully understand it, you may differ, I tend to loose track _lose_ > of its context, but maybe that's just me. Adrian > > I wonder why it is that I rarely see very long sentences in modern > > literature. Could it be that today's reader just can't comprehend [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Adrian I'll have to be more careful in the future, I can see. Why 'fewer' instead of 'less' ? What's the problem with the space before the question mark ? Yes, I slipped up with 'loose'. Don't you have anything to say about what I asked ? > I'll have to be more careful in the future, I can see. > Why 'fewer' instead of 'less' ? 'Fewer' refers to countable nouns, 'less' to mass nouns. So you have less water, but fewer apples. The same distinction exists in many other languages - if I recall correctly, in French you use 'moins de' for a mass noun, but just 'moins' for a countable one. > What's the problem with the space before the question mark ? What, aside from it being wrong, you mean? ;) Nothing really, it's just not standard punctuation. Danny > > I'll have to be more careful in the future, I can see. > > Why 'fewer' instead of 'less' ? > > 'Fewer' refers to countable nouns, 'less' to mass nouns. So you have less > water, but fewer apples. Do I say "Consume less water and apples." and "Consume fewer apples and water."? Or, must I qualify each, as in: "Consume fewer apples and less water."? > > What's the problem with the space before the question mark ? > > What, aside from it being wrong, you mean? ;) Nothing really, it's just not > standard punctuation. I have no problem with that. Can I put more than one '?' in a sentence, as in: "What is your name? and now that I have your attention, why were you late for school?" or is it considered as an equal to the period? > > > I'll have to be more careful in the future, I can see. > > > Why 'fewer' instead of 'less' ? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Do I say "Consume less water and apples." Acceptable, just, given that [less+count noun] is understood by most speakers. > and "Consume fewer apples > and water."? No. > Or, must I qualify each, as in: "Consume fewer apples and > less water."? Best. > Can I put more than one '?' in a sentence, as in: "What is your name? and > now that I have your attention, why were you late for school?" or is it > considered as an equal to the period? It is a period, so it's normal to write: "What is your name? And now that..." But some idiosyncratic writers might write it the way you did. Adrian > [Danny Kodicek wrote] > > 'Fewer' refers to countable nouns, 'less' to mass nouns. > > So you have less water, but fewer apples. > > Do I say "Consume less water and apples." Yes. "Water and apples" isn't countable, so you can use "less". > Or, must I qualify each, as in: "Consume fewer apples and > less water."? That's what I'd do if I were being careful. BTW you don't need a comma after "or" ... and you almost certainly shouldn't have full stop (period) and a question mark at the end of the sentence. Here in the UK we'd omit the full stop (on the grounds that "consume fewer apples and less water" isn't a complete sentence, and so doesn't need its own punctuation) - I'm not sure what would be done in the US, but their rules are different. ('... water?"', possibly?) Cheers, Daniel. >> [Danny Kodicek wrote] >> > 'Fewer' refers to countable nouns, 'less' to mass nouns. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >isn't a complete sentence, and so doesn't need its own >punctuation) - I think "Consume fewer apples and less water." is a complete Imperative Sentence. As a matter of personal style I would be inclined to omit the full stop (period) after water. If, however, the quoted sentence was forceful enough to require an ! at the end I would include that in the quotation. >I'm not sure what would be done in the US, but >their rules are different. ('... water?"', possibly?) > >Cheers, > Daniel.  SignaturePeter Duncanson UK (posting from a.e.u) On 06 Jan 2004, Peter Duncanson wrote -snip- > I think "Consume fewer apples and less water." is a complete > Imperative Sentence. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > forceful enough to require an ! at the end I would include that in > the quotation. I suppose it's technically OK -- I don't know how else one would write this -- but it looks a bit strange to my eye: Are you quoting the crazy doctor who yelled "Consume fewer apples and less water!"? SignatureCheers, Harvey Ottawa/Toronto/Edmonton for 30 years; Southern England for the past 21 years. (for e-mail, change harvey to whhvs) >On 06 Jan 2004, Peter Duncanson wrote > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Are you quoting the crazy doctor who yelled "Consume fewer > apples and less water!"? I agree that it looks a bit strange. In your example the ! could be omitted without any loss. The words "crazy doctor who yelled" do a very good job of indicating the manner in which the sentence was uttered, and make the ! redundant (as far as conveying meaning is concerned). SignaturePeter Duncanson UK (posting from a.e.u) >>> [Danny Kodicek wrote] >>> > 'Fewer' refers to countable nouns, 'less' to mass nouns. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >I think "Consume fewer apples and less water." is a complete Imperative >Sentence. Is it not also an example of a zeugma? COD10: zeugma /"zju;gm@/ · n. a figure of speech in which a word applies to two others in different senses (e.g. John and his driving licence expired last week). DERIVATIVES zeugmatic adj. ORIGIN ME: via L. from Gk, from zeugnunai to yoke. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England > >I think "Consume fewer apples and less water." is a complete Imperative > >Sentence. > > > Is it not also an example of a zeugma? Yes, specifically prozeugma. SignatureOdysseus >>>> [Danny Kodicek wrote] Snip >Is it not also an example of a zeugma? >COD10: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >– DERIVATIVES zeugmatic adj. >– ORIGIN ME: via L. from Gk, from zeugnunai ‘to yoke’. Synchronicity! Letter in the 'Times' today: [zeugma/syllepsis] "The former is grammatically correct but not logically correct but the latter is correct in both senses. 'With weeping eyes and hearts' is zeugma: 'Miss Bolo went home in floods of tears and a sedan chair' is syllepsis. [...........] Flanders and Swann song 'Have some more Madeira, M'dear'. It includes the quadruple syllepsis : 'He said as he put out the cat, the wine, his cigar and the lamps'. And the triple example: 'When he asked 'What in heaven?' she made no reply, up her mind and a dash for the door'. Mike SignatureM.J.Powell > I think "Consume fewer apples and less water." is a complete > Imperative Sentence. Er, yes. Good point. I hadn't thought about that ... > As a matter of personal style I would be inclined to omit > the full stop (period) after water. If, however, the quoted > sentence was forceful enough to require an ! at the end I > would include that in the quotation. So you'd end with '... water!"?' ? I'm not sure I could bring myself to do that. [Note, in the interest of clarity I have put a space between '...water!"?' and the question mark at the end of my question. I know we've just told the OP not to, but I'd make a case for this being an exception.] Cheers, Daniel. >> I think "Consume fewer apples and less water." is a complete >> Imperative Sentence. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >So you'd end with '... water!"?' ? I'm not sure I could bring >myself to do that. Now that you mention it, the punctuation does look a little 'huddled'. >[Note, in the interest of clarity I have put a space between >'...water!"?' and the question mark at the end of my question. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Cheers, > Daniel. SignaturePeter Duncanson UK (posting from a.e.u) "Peter Duncanson" typed: >>> I think "Consume fewer apples and less water." is a complete >>> Imperative Sentence. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Now that you mention it, the punctuation does look a little > 'huddled'. Speaking of which, I was a little surprised when I found this in Dickens' _Great Expectations_: Then I said I supposed he had a fine business, and Wemmick said, 'Ca-pi-tal!' Then I asked if there were many clerks? to which he replied: 'We don't run much into clerks, because ...' SignatureAyaz Ahmed Khan Yours Forever in, | Webmaster, Cyberspace. | http://adic.netfirms.com/fastce/home.html >"Peter Duncanson" typed: > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > to which he replied: > 'We don't run much into clerks, because ...' Which bit surprised you? (Serious question.) Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England "Dr Robin Bignall" typed: >>"Peter Duncanson" typed: >> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Which bit surprised you? (Serious question.) The question mark immediately following the plural noun _clerks_. SignatureAyaz Ahmed Khan Yours Forever in, | Webmaster, Cyberspace. | http://adic.netfirms.com/fastce/home.html >"Dr Robin Bignall" typed: [..] >>>Speaking of which, I was a little surprised when I found this in >>>Dickens' _Great Expectations_: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >The question mark immediately following the plural noun _clerks_. Possibly not unusual in 19th century writing. I have 4 books which I had as a child, part of an 8-volume series called "The 1000 World's Best Short Stories". They were bought by mail order by my parents in the 1930s and I guess they ran out of money halfway through. The stories come from all ages and countries, and were first published round about 1880, after being translated or 'modernised' to the standards of that time. They contain some strange (to the modern eye) punctuation and phraseology. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England "Dr Robin Bignall" typed: >>"Dr Robin Bignall" typed: >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > standards of that time. They contain some strange (to the modern > eye) punctuation and phraseology. Yes. Even Dickens' style of writing in Great Expectations comes across to me as very unusual, with extremely long sentences and some bizaare sentence constructions. However, I do remember, having read _A tale of Two Cities_, that Dickens wrote unbelievably simple, understandable English -- thinking from an ETL's, or ESL's, perspective -- in that book, which is perhaps just as old. I much prefer to read modern text. I only have two old books: one is Great Expectations, and the other _Dreams and Nightmares_. And, yes, Hardy's _Far From the Madding Crowd_. Only, it was a suggested text-book for an English course at high-school. SignatureAyaz Ahmed Khan Yours Forever in, | Webmaster, Cyberspace. | http://adic.netfirms.com/fastce/home.html >"Dr Robin Bignall" typed: > [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >Hardy's _Far From the Madding Crowd_. Only, it was a suggested >text-book for an English course at high-school. Text from previous centuries, from Shakespeare onwards, is interesting to read because one has to think about the meanings, instead of this "Keep it simple" easy to read crap that so many people recommend today. You might have to keep stuff simple for management, but in one's spare time, reading writing that doesn't stretch one is boring, IMO. Of course, ESLs have to start with writing that matches their vocabulary and work upwards, but it's easy to carry on reading the adult equivalent of "See Spot Run" forever if one is not careful. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England "Dr Robin Bignall" typed: >>"Dr Robin Bignall" typed: >> [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > easy to carry on reading the adult equivalent of "See Spot Run" > forever if one is not careful. But spare time is rarely available these days. I usually concentrate on, and also prefer to read, technological texts, especially those related to my field of study. SignatureAyaz Ahmed Khan Yours Forever in, | Webmaster, Cyberspace. | http://adic.netfirms.com/fastce/home.html > >"Dr Robin Bignall" typed: > > [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > have to keep stuff simple for management, but in one's spare time, reading > writing that doesn't stretch one is boring, IMO. Well, I'm certainly being 'stretched' reading the 1760 version of Tristram Shandy by Laurence Sterne. Talk about long sentences! From the frontspiece "..one of the most amusing books in the English language." The only amusing part so far, is that I only paid $1 for it in a secondhand book store last summer, not to say that I'll put it down just yet. >"Dr Robin Bignall" typed: > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > >The question mark immediately following the plural noun _clerks_. By coincidence, I found another much more contemporary example of this last weekend, but got sidetracked before I could post it. It's from Greene's "Quiet American", written in the 1950s, and is part of a letter from the narrator's wife in which she refuses him a divorce in order for him to be able to marry Phuong, the Vietnamese girl with whom he is living. The wife writes "You are not a man, are you? to remain alone for very long." Greene was born in 1904, and although his school years were miserable, he was the headmaster's son and must have received a good classical education including many 19th century authors. (Rider Haggard was one of his (and my) favourites.) Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England "Dr Robin Bignall" typed: >>"Dr Robin Bignall" typed: >> [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > classical education including many 19th century authors. (Rider > Haggard was one of his (and my) favourites.) I suppose most people who read literature feel disposed to adopt the same style in their writings as the literature they read was written in. I, myself, have often tried to write the way Hardy did, having read his _Far From the Madding Crowd_, though not successfully, completely, obviously. SignatureAyaz Ahmed Khan Yours Forever in, | Webmaster, Cyberspace. | http://fast-ce.org/ > I wonder why it is that I rarely see very long sentences in modern > literature. Could it be that today's reader just can't comprehend > them in their totality. Could be. Most teachers, writers and editors advocate short declarative sentences. It's considered good style in English. But it goes beyond considerations of style to matters of simple comprehension. > What skills did the people of yesterday have, > that I don't seem to have today ? Less distractions, perhaps ? [Fewer, not less.] > Here is an example, written by John W. Burgess in the article "Recent > Changes in American Constitutional Theory" (Chapter 5), 1923 > > I had to read this 20-line piece (2400 lines in all) at least twice before > I fully understood it, There's a good argument for short sentences right there. It looks like you've answered your own question. > and thankfully it didn't contain any unfamiliar words. > In struggling to fully understand it, you may differ, I tend to loose track > of its context, but maybe that's just me. [Lose, not loose.] > <quote> > If, in the opinion of any citizen of the United States, or of any [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > except in case of invasion or rebellion, on the theatre of actual conflict. > </quote> Why do I think this is a troll, and not a particularly good one? > > I wonder why it is that I rarely see very long sentences in modern > > literature. Could it be that today's reader just can't comprehend [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > > Why do I think this is a troll, and not a particularly good one? "Could be."? That is not a sentence, now who's trolling? >I wonder why it is that I rarely see very long sentences in modern >literature. Could it be that today's reader just can't comprehend >them in their totality. What skills did the people of yesterday have, >that I don't seem to have today ? A very good education! This is not aimed at you, incidentally. If one reads some writing from the 19th century or very early in the 20th, it seems to be written more for scholars than for modern readers. The vocabulary is larger, the usage seems odd, and, as you point out, long and complex sentences are not unusual. "Trent's Last Case", by Edmund Clerihew Bentley, is an example of a popular detective novel published soon after 1900, that requires a considerable vocabulary. In contrast, neither Dickens nor Conan Doyle are particularly difficult for today's readers, IMO. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England The Greeks certainly weren't scared of long sentences. There's a sentence in Plato's Apology that would kill you were you to say it without drawing breath. <http://tinyurl.com/2lb3b> Not to mention the fact that some of their words are longer than our sentences: <http://tinyurl.com/2sw3f> I like this one: <http://tinyurl.com/2zyxr> Hardly every day words, but there are some more common ones of throat ripping length, I assure you. R. > >I wonder why it is that I rarely see very long sentences in modern > >literature. Could it be that today's reader just can't comprehend [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > larger, the usage seems odd, and, as you point out, long and complex > sentences are not unusual. I never had much of an education, failing the 11+ three times, even with individual coaching from a neighbourhood school teacher. I didn't do well at the secondary school either. Some time after I left school, I studied at nightschool for the GCE but only obtained 'O' level grades. I had always been facinated with crystal sets, later attended Radio School, became a sea-going radio operator, and sort of slipped into electronic design and computer programming. I once saw an interview with Sean Connery, in which he said that someone acquainted him with the 'classics' to improve his education, and he mentioned a list of 'must read' classical works. For quite a while I carried that list around with me, hoping that one day, when just putting bread on the table was no longer my major concern, that I might follow in his footsteps. Alas, I no longer have that list, now that, perhaps, in my retirement, I have the time for further reading and study. >> >I wonder why it is that I rarely see very long sentences in modern >> >literature. Could it be that today's reader just can't comprehend [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >a sea-going radio operator, and sort of slipped into electronic design and >computer programming. I, too, failed 11+, did better at secondary modern, and then went on to get O and A levels at various technical colleges, ending up at university with a first and PhD in physics. Had I not been an only child, my parents would not have been able to afford to let me continue studying after 15. Crystal sets, single-valve radios, slot machines, engines and anything that clanks or flashes were and are my interests, too. >I once saw an interview with Sean Connery, in which he said that someone >acquainted him with the 'classics' to improve his education, and he mentioned [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >have that list, now that, perhaps, in my retirement, I have the time for further >reading and study. "Study and read as and where you please", should be your motto. Those lists often contain books such as "Robinson Crusoe" and "Tom Jones", which IMO are utterly boring to read but came to life on the screen. I have been reading avidly since I was three, and took early retirement a decade ago. For a long time I was either hospitalised or house-bound, and had little to do except sleep, read or wander around Usenet. Now, with increased mobility, getting out and meeting people is my primary concern, Usenet time is snatched before breakfast, after lunch (as this moment is) or after midnight, and reading takes third place between going to bed and falling asleep! I used to devour 10 or 12 books a week. Now it's a week per book. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England > >> >I wonder why it is that I rarely see very long sentences in modern > >> >literature. Could it be that today's reader just can't comprehend [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > sets, single-valve radios, slot machines, engines and anything that clanks > or flashes were and are my interests, too. That's remarkable, getting a degree, that is, although I have a friend who was worse than me in school, went on to a degree and now is a full prof! I think my trouble was nerves, in the examination room. Ten years ago I qualified as a CNE (Certified Novell Engineer) and all the examinations where 'live' on a computer screen, the next question being based on how you answered the previous question, and I had little trouble with that format. For several years I worked alongside dental & physics postgrads (periodontal physiology & atmospheric physics, not in the same faculty, obviously) and often they came to ME for advice, and my name appeared on the headers of several scientific papers. I did independent biological research in the dental group, and in a lecture on doppler weather radar, the prof. invited me to participate, to help explain how the math problems were solved in software. There were deep research cuts in the 90..92 recession, I lost my job and being at the bottom of the heap (no degree) I could only find contract work, did the Novell thingy, and eventually gave up and retired. Even the people with degrees, that I knew, are in trouble today, both in the USA and Canada. >> >> >I wonder why it is that I rarely see very long sentences in modern >> >> >literature. Could it be that today's reader just can't comprehend [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >worse than me in school, went on to a degree and now is a full prof! I think my >trouble was nerves, in the examination room. Examination nerves are crippling, Alan. I saw quite a few people at various levels during my education who did very well in class work, but fell apart in exams. >Ten years ago I qualified as a >CNE (Certified Novell Engineer) and all the examinations where 'live' on a [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >find contract work, did the Novell thingy, and eventually gave up and retired. Even the >people with degrees, that I knew, are in trouble today, both in the USA and Canada. Well, you've proved yourself, alright. This business of having paper qualifications is yet another form of snobbery in the UK. My wife taught herself accounting while she was a legal secretary 40 years ago, 30 years before we met, but never had the chance to do a degree and has some form of low-level qualification obtained via mail - a sort of lower level Open University thingy long before the OU was invented. She's been a legal accountant for 30 years, working for small practices of solicitors, and has in that time covered crime, conveyancing and wills and inheritance. As a result she quite often does most of the legal spade-work on such matters, as well as the accounting, but some pipsqueak with the ink still wet on his solicitor's practising certificate has to sign it off. Grrr! The law has recently changed. Solicitors' practices used only to be able to have solicitors as partners. Now anyone can be a partner. She was offered a partnership a month or two ago, but refused. She does the salaries for the practice, and knows that she earns more than the junior partners! I was made redundant in 1993 after 25 years with the same company, and despite all of the qualifications, couldn't find another job. Tried setting up my own consultancy, but nobody was buying. I worked in a loose association with about 30 other people. We shared expenses for secretarial support and canvassing for business, but they got nowhere, either, and we all retired. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England > I wonder why it is that I rarely see very long sentences in modern > literature. Could it be that today's reader just can't comprehend > them in their totality. What skills did the people of yesterday have, > that I don't seem to have today ? Less distractions, perhaps ? Not "less," but "fewer." A frequent grammatical error. Question mark after "totality." > Here is an example, written by John W. Burgess in the article "Recent > Changes in American Constitutional Theory" (Chapter 5), 1923 [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > In struggling to fully understand it, you may differ, I tend to loose track > of its context, but maybe that's just me. Not "loose," but "lose." Another frequent error You have "thankfully" referring to "it." You might say "I'm thankful it...." Sorry to sound pedantic, but this is an English usage group, right? > <quote> > If, in the opinion of any citizen of the United States, or of any [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > except in case of invasion or rebellion, on the theatre of actual conflict. > </quote> > > I wonder why it is that I rarely see very long sentences in modern > > literature. Could it be that today's reader just can't comprehend [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Sorry to sound pedantic, but this is an English usage group, > right? Don't you have anything to say about what I asked? >Don't you have anything to say about what I asked? I quote MC's Law, in response. I've added aeu. >"Post a question in aue (or aeu) and sooner or later someone will either correct >you, denounce the premise of the question, point out some real or [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >Penna. Dept. Ag. "UNDER PENALTY OF LAW THIS TAG SHALL NOT BE REMOVED >EXCEPT BY THE CONSUMER" *The Schultz Amendment Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England |
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