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Discussion Groups / English Usage / February 2008Why do old abbreviations that are perfectly fine have to get longer?
Why do old abbreviations that are perfectly fine have to get longer? Until 1964 or maybe much later, Post Office Box was abbreviated (or whatever the right term is) POB. Who didn't understand that in What's My Line POB 1776 New York 12, New York POB stood for post office box? What else could it stand for in an address? Everyone knew it. But somewhere along the line someone decided they had to say PO Box. Who was that and why? Also OBG. Until 1964 or maybe much later, OBG stood for Obstetrics and Gynocology. And nothing else. What else could it stand for? But somewhere along the line someone decided it had to be OBGYN. Who was that and why? If you are inclined to email me for some reason, remove NOPSAM :-) > Why do old abbreviations that are perfectly fine have to get longer? > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > If you are inclined to email me > for some reason, remove NOPSAM :-) Sorry, but I have always seen and used only "P.O. Box." Except that there used to be a space between "P." and "O." Sorry, but I have never seen OBG, only OB/GYN and Ob/Gyn. See that virgule? Cece >> Why do old abbreviations that are perfectly fine have to get longer? >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >Sorry, but I have always seen and used only "P.O. Box." Except that >there used to be a space between "P." and "O." Well, I don't really know how POBox is written, but POB is written POB. So simple. >Sorry, but I have never seen OBG, only OB/GYN and Ob/Gyn. See that >virgule? Yeah, you're right. That makes it six characters instead of the 3 I think it used to be. So, how old are you? Where do you live? I live in the US. >Cece If you are inclined to email me for some reason, remove NOPSAM :-) On 21 Feb 2008, mm wrote -snip original questions- >> Sorry, but I have always seen and used only "P.O. Box." Except >> that there used to be a space between "P." and "O." > > Well, I don't really know how POBox is written, but POB is > written POB. So simple. It's not simple if you've never seen POB. FWIW, I don't recall seeing "POB" -- it's always been "P.O. Box" for me. (I'm 55, with a 30/25 year split between Canada and the UK.)  SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed > Why do old abbreviations that are perfectly fine have to get longer? > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > address? Everyone knew it. But somewhere along the line someone > decided they had to say PO Box. Who was that and why? As with Cece and Oleg, I have not seen or used POB on any mailing. For a long time, back in the '50s and earlier (Wisconsin, anyway) the rural postal addresses were written "Star Route (Pony Route, Rural Route, RFD)", the route number depending on the postman's route decisions--1, 2, 3, etc. The route number was followed on the envelope by "Box #". (or, Box 85, RR 1) If the addressee picked up his mail at the post office, then "P. O. Box #" was used. Sometimes we just used P. O. #, but we found out that post offices in larger towns had branches, also with numerical designations. ZIP codes helped a lot with that. I don't know when postal service dropped the use of the periods, but my nephew gave me trouble back in the late '70s. "It's P O Box #." In towns with local delivery, the street name and house number was used. No box number or other reference was needed. If you lived in a small place long enough, just the addressee's name and the the word "City" was sufficient for house-to-house or post office delivery. Out-of-towners had to name the town and the state the letter was being sent to. > Also OBG. Until 1964 or maybe much later, OBG stood for Obstetrics > and Gynocology. And nothing else. What else could it stand for? But [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > If you are inclined to email me > for some reason, remove NOPSAM :-) "Pat Durkin" <durk183@sbc.com> wrote in message >> Why do old abbreviations that are perfectly fine have to get longer? >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > As with Cece and Oleg, I have not seen or used POB on any mailing. Sorry. I meant "Cece and HVS". > As with Cece and Oleg, I have not seen or used POB on any mailing. The US Postal Service's web site only uses the term PO Box, with no periods. Nonetheless, the usage POB strikes a familiar note for me. Some Googling turns up several examples of the POB form. A few of them: http://www.qrd.org/qrd/events/stonewall25.old/contact.sheet-6.14.93 "POB 33915, San Diego CA" http://triangle.citysearch.com/profile/map/41927075/new_york_ny/new_york_bird_ club.html "POB 286231 New York, NY 10128" http://webideas.com/yellowpages/eng/newspapers.htm "P. O. B. 101951 Denver, CO" "POB 20197, New York, NY 10017" and a whole mess of them at http://www.conjure.com/COG/zinest.html SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. >> Why do old abbreviations that are perfectly fine have to get longer? >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >2, 3, etc. The route number was followed on the envelope by "Box #". >(or, Box 85, RR 1) Well that makes sense, becaues of local custom and because the box wasn't at the post office, even if it was for use by the post office. >If the addressee picked up his mail at the post >office, then "P. O. Box #" was used. Sometimes we just used P. O. #, >but we found out that post offices in larger towns had branches, also >with numerical designations. ZIP codes helped a lot with that. That's why I put a zone in my example above. They may have taken the introduction of zipcodees as a good time to add more zones too, but in cities at least there were almost as many zones as there were zipcodes a week later. >I don't know when postal service dropped the use of the periods, but my >nephew gave me trouble back in the late '70s. "It's P O Box #." Nephews are like that. >In towns with local delivery, the street name and house number was used. >No box number or other reference was needed. If you lived in a small >place long enough, just the addressee's name and the the word "City" was >sufficient for house-to-house or post office delivery. We used "City" also. I think in places with more than one zone, they might put "City 12" or whatever the zone was. I am sure zipcodes had something to do with the end of "city", but even before then, there must have been occasional letters that got shipped out of town with the other mail that was headed out of town. Once it was in another town, "City" had an entirely different meaning, and if they realized it was a different city, they would have to try to read the postmark to know where to send it to. So I'm sure that if zipcodes didn't end "City" something else would have. As charming as it was. > Out-of-towners >had to name the town and the state the letter was being sent to. Right. John found some current POB usage, but I assure you that there was much more from the start of television until 1960 and probably beyond. (Given the lack of other observation of this, I'm setting the year back to 1960 instead of '64. :) ) Not just tv shows gave their addresses on tv, but various kinds of commercial offers, prize offers, offers in cereal boxes, and I'm pretty sure all the ones on tv at least were pob. >> Also OBG. Until 1964 or maybe much later, OBG stood for Obstetrics >> and Gynocology. And nothing else. What else could it stand for? But >> somewhere along the line someone decided it had to be OBGYN. Who was >> that and why? If you are inclined to email me for some reason, remove NOPSAM :-) > POB stood for post office box? What else could it stand for in an > address? Everyone knew it. Someone might have mistaken it for SOB. Surely everyone knows what that means? :-P Signatureqt mm <NOPSAMmm2005@bigfoot.com>'s wild thoughts were released on Thu, 21 Feb 2008 12:30:59 -0500 bearing the following fruit: >Why do old abbreviations that are perfectly fine have to get longer? > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >If you are inclined to email me >for some reason, remove NOPSAM :-) It's my guess that there has been an explosion of acronyms since 1964. I've never heard seen POB used. I couldn't even begin to guess what OBG stands for, I could make an educated guess with OBGYN (which I also never come accross) -- Jan Hyde https://mvp.support.microsoft.com/profile/Jan.Hyde On Feb 22, 10:58 am, "Jan Hyde (VB MVP)" <StellaDrin...@REMOVE.ME.uboot.com> wrote: > mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com>'s wild thoughts were released > on Thu, 21 Feb 2008 12:30:59 -0500 bearing the following [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > - Show quoted text - It's usually written ob/gyn -- all lower-case. Mailing: Before ZIP Codes (now trademarked!) appeared, in 1963 as I remember (along with a rise in first-class postage to five cents per ounce), an envelope mailed for delivery in the same city did not need the name of the city, or the zone of that city, on it; the last line of the address could be "City." Yes, the larger cities had zones. In some cities, those zone numbers became the last two digits of the ZIP Code assigned; in others, not (I know that a place in Corpus Christi TX used to be "Corpus Christi 60, Texas" and became "Corpus Christi TX 78412"). At the same time, USPO established the two-letter state codes, to be all caps, with no comma preceding; between the state code and the ZIP Code, there were to be at least two spaces (up to five, IIRC). Then the USPO (a government agency) was replaced by the USPS (a civilian contractor), and things went nuts.* We got that ridiculous +4 thing (who knows his own?), periods were frowned upon, standard addressing etiquette was disallowed (proper placement of the "Attn:" line), and much more. That "Service" even messes up the ZIP Code book! Ever looked up an address on a street named M.L. King? It's printed "Ml King" -- in a sans serif font, so it could be em-one or em- eye as easily as em-ell. Then came the word-processing software that knows better than anyone else, that refuses to allow two blank spaces together. I still keyboard them! And, when I can, tell the software to accept being the stupid tool it is. *The Federal government cannot copyright or trademark anything. USPS, not being part of the government, registered copyright in all its publications (ZIP Code book, fliers, everything) and trademarked the phrase "ZIP Code." Yes, that's the proper, official way to write it; any other capitalization pattern is a violation. And it refers to only the codes used by the USPS, in the geographical area it "serves." Codes in other places, like the UK and Canada, are "postal codes." Cece >Mailing: Before ZIP Codes (now trademarked!) appeared, in 1963 as I >remember (along with a rise in first-class postage to five cents per [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >TX used to be "Corpus Christi 60, Texas" and became "Corpus Christi >TX 78412"). So? Things change. Back in the days before ZIP codes my postal zone got changed more than once. I don't remember the numbers anymore, but for instance, from Tucson 16 to Tucson 19. And when ZIP codes were adopted (I was living in Louisville at the time) my new ZIP had nothing to do with my postal zone. >At the same time, USPO established the two-letter state >codes, to be all caps, with no comma preceding; between the state code >and the ZIP Code, there were to be at least two spaces (up to five, >IIRC). For machine-read business mail, I would reckon. I don't send much of that. >Then the USPO (a government agency) was replaced by the USPS (a >civilian contractor), and things went nuts.* USPS is not a civilian contractor; it's a government executive agency. Per its web site: "The Post Office Department was transformed into the United States Postal Service, an independent establishment of the executive branch of the Government of the United States. The mission of the Postal Service remained the same, as stated in Title 39 of the U.S. Code: "The Postal Service shall have as its basic function the obligation to provide postal services to bind the Nation together through the personal, educational, literary, and business correspondence of the people. It shall provide prompt, reliable, and efficient services to patrons in all areas and shall render postal services to all communities. "The new Postal Service officially began operations on July 1, 1971, when the Postmaster General ceased to be a member of the Presidents Cabinet. The Postal Service received: "Operational authority vested in a Board of Governors and Postal Service executive management, rather than in Congress." >We got that ridiculous >+4 thing (who knows his own?), Mine's 1235. But it's never been a required for any paperwork I've filled out. Nevertheless, companies always seem to be able to add it to my address. >*The Federal government cannot copyright or trademark anything. USPS, >not being part of the government, registered copyright in all its >publications (ZIP Code book, fliers, everything) and trademarked the >phrase "ZIP Code." I know that the feds cant' copyright anything, but I'm not so certain about trade marking. do you have a cite for that? I can't find any evidence of a trademark for "ZIP code" at the government's trademark search web site (TESS), and USPS doesn't seem to use (tm) or (R) after the term. Tell us more. http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?f=tess&state=dpngin.1.1 I do see that it's United States Postal Service(R), though. And Postal Service TM. And ZIP+4(R). >Yes, that's the proper, official way to write it; >any other capitalization pattern is a violation. A violation of what? Can you show us where it's trademarked? How many people have been busted for using "zip code"? In fact, how many times have you actually been called upon to have to write "ZIP code"? >And it refers to >only the codes used by the USPS, in the geographical area it >"serves." Codes in other places, like the UK and Canada, are "postal >codes." "ZIP" stands for Zone Improvement Program". I doubt the USPS has set up zone improvement programs in Canada and the UK. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>*The Federal government cannot copyright or trademark anything. USPS, >>not being part of the government, registered copyright in all its [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >government's trademark search web site (TESS), and USPS doesn't >seem to use (tm) or (R) after the term. Tell us more. IIRC, the government didn't trademark Zip code or zipcode or Mr. Zippy, and they got a lot of criticism for the last one. Which would mean either it can trademark things or the criticism was pretty stupid. >http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?f=tess&state=dpngin.1.1 This doesn't work for me. It says to start my search again, but then it doesnt go any place special. If you are inclined to email me for some reason, remove NOPSAM :-) >>>*The Federal government cannot copyright or trademark anything. USPS, >>>not being part of the government, registered copyright in all its [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >IIRC, the government didn't trademark Zip code or zipcode or Mr. >Zippy, and they got a lot of criticism for the last one. Which would YOu know, I might be mistaken. It might be NPR which didn't trademark Big Bird, etc. and got a lot of criticism for that. I was at a sports meet once where Big Bird wresteled with Mr. Zippy so that might be why I confused them. It really wasn't a fair fight because Big Bird's neck is so long, and vulernerable. I complained to the Marquis of Queensbury but it did no good. >mean either it can trademark things or the criticism was pretty >stupid. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >If you are inclined to email me >for some reason, remove NOPSAM :-) If you are inclined to email me for some reason, remove NOPSAM :-) >>>>*The Federal government cannot copyright or trademark anything. USPS, >>>>not being part of the government, registered copyright in all its [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >>IIRC, the government didn't trademark Zip code or zipcode or Mr. >>Zippy, and they got a lot of criticism for the last one. Which would Mr Zip is trademarked. >YOu know, I might be mistaken. It might be NPR which didn't trademark >Big Bird, etc. and got a lot of criticism for that. Big Bird would have been trademarked by the Children's Television Workshop. Big Bird doesn't appear on NPR, which is National Public Radio. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>YOu know, I might be mistaken. It might be NPR which didn't trademark >>Big Bird, etc. and got a lot of criticism for that. > >Big Bird would have been trademarked by the Children's Television Yeah, there the ones who didn't trademark it. >Workshop. Big Bird doesn't appear on NPR, which is National >Public Radio. I specifically remember Big Bird inteviewing Al Gore in 2000. If you are inclined to email me for some reason, remove NOPSAM :-) >> Big Bird would have been trademarked by the Children's Television > > Yeah, there the ones who didn't trademark it. Oy! SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. > I can't find any evidence of a trademark for "ZIP code" A Wikipedia author did: http://tarr.uspto.gov/servlet/tarr?regser=serial&entry=73001312 > Mark (words only): ZIP CODE > Standard Character claim: No [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Transformed into a National Application: No > Registration Date: 1976-06-29 ¬R >> I can't find any evidence of a trademark for "ZIP code" > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> Transformed into a National Application: No >> Registration Date: 1976-06-29 Huh. Interesting. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * (on Zip codes) >>We got that ridiculous >>+4 thing (who knows his own?), > >Mine's 1235. But it's never been a required for any paperwork >I've filled out. Nevertheless, companies always seem to be able >to add it to my address. I frequently mail things to my daughter. By experimenting, I've found that adding the +4 to the Zip gets the mail there one or two days earlier than not including it. Also, I address the envelopes by computer rather than by hand, so the address is easily machine processed. -- Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >(on Zip codes) > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >computer rather than by hand, so the address is easily machine >processed. You use the US mails that much. You know, I always see your name and think of you as British. Probably because of the combination of Tony Blair and Mini-Cooper. If you are inclined to email me for some reason, remove NOPSAM :-) > I frequently mail things to my daughter. By experimenting, I've found that > adding the +4 to the Zip gets the mail there one or two days earlier than not > including it. Also, I address the envelopes by computer rather than by hand, > so the address is easily machine processed. If you look, you might find that your word processor will add the Zip code in bar code format. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. > (on Zip codes) > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida Now I've found that misaddressed mail, with no ZIP at all, gets there faster. One such envelope traveled a thousand miles in less than 10 hours. Putting the wrong code, though, slows that envelope down -- one like that made it in only three months. I know of one small office that got everything it mailed one day brought back the next on the grounds of "insufficient address." The lone clerk did not have the +4, so left it off, but the postal service insisted. Cost that office all that postage too, as the machine- printed dated tapes are good only the day they're printed. And that's a greedy little change! Some postal service informational brochure, or maybe the national ZIP Code book, told me about the trademark and copyright stuff, in the mid-70s. But it does not seem to be on record at USPTO! (Ladies' wear is offered under that mark.) Officially, the USPS is not a part of the government, whatever it is. All a legal fiction. Part of Indianapolis used to be zone 20; it became 46220. Part of Houston used to be zone 36; it became 77036 -- same for zones 5 and 6.. The Houston ones have since been split; what was 77036 might be 77081 or 77074 and what was 77005 could be 77025 or 77030 or 77054. >Part of Indianapolis used to be zone 20; it became 46220. I lived in Indianapolis so long ago that I was in zone III. -- Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida > I know that the feds cant' copyright anything, but I'm not so certain about > trade marking. do you have a cite for that? Are you sure? Didn't they trademark the Ada computer language so that no one could call anything Ada unless it met the Ada specs? SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. > Why do old abbreviations that are perfectly fine have to get longer? > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > somewhere along the line someone decided it had to be OBGYN. Who was > that and why? I am in my 70s, and my father was a professor at Cornell Medical School in NYC. I have never heard or seen OBG, only OBGYN or OB-GYN. I remember when the postal codes were introduced during WWII -- to aid inexperienced workers in mail sorting. I lived in Pelham 65, NY. (Today Pelham NY 10803) I have seen a shift from P. O. Box to P.O. Box. In addition I have noted a shift from F. Ad. Richter to F.Ad. Richter. I prefer the first choice in this case, as he died in 1910. But on membership lists I see no spaces -- J.Q.M. Kersbergen, W.D.C. Lunsingh Scheurleer. I have also noted that fewer and fewer people use initials instead of given names on membership lists. OTOH, I visited a home of an older man for tea, and his wife always addressed him as "Mr Kok", not by his first name. (And, yes, he had one.) GFH |
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