 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
| HomeDiscussion GroupsEnglish UsageBritish EnglishESL Teaching Learnglish.com Contact UsLink To UsSearch & Site Map |
Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2004Trucks & Lorries Addendum
I just remembered another use of "truck." I don't think most SUV owners call their vehicles "trucks" but people in the motor trade in these parts (Montreal) do -- I've heard it from a salesman in in the leasing business and from a couple of mechanics. I suspect it may be because under the hood and the coachwork, many of them *are* trucks -- built up on existing truck chassis. I have no truck with it myself of course. > I just remembered another use of "truck." > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > I have no truck with it myself of course. And, of course, the carriage under rail cars. Oddly enough, the entry I found listed for this usage was ddefined as 'British' yet I have often heard it in the US, most recently in "The Station Agent" (which I will recommend, by the way). Not much related to lorries but non sequiturs are much a way of life here, aren't they? Keep on truckin'! DJ ------------------------------------------------------ preface email addie with 'd' to defeat anti-spaminator > > I just remembered another use of "truck." > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > And, of course, the carriage under rail cars. Bogeys or bogies? > > > I just remembered another use of "truck." > > > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Bogeys or bogies? Good point: I hope somebody will follow this one up, as I was interested during my son's skateboarding period to note that the wheely bits of a skateboard were called "trucks". Co-Co for now. Mike. >> > > I just remembered another use of "truck." >> > > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >Co-Co for now. OK Bo-Bo Mike  SignatureM.J.Powell >> > > I just remembered another use of "truck." >> > > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >interested during my son's skateboarding period to note that the >wheely bits of a skateboard were called "trucks". From COD10: truck1 · n. 1 a large road vehicle, used for carrying goods, materials, or troops. Ø Brit. a railway vehicle for carrying freight, especially a small open one. Ø a low flat-topped trolley used for moving heavy items. 2 a railway bogie. Ø each of two axle units on a skateboard, to which the wheels are attached. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England >>> > > I just remembered another use of "truck." >>> > > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >2 a railway bogie. Ø each of two axle units on a skateboard, to which the >wheels are attached. There is the Hand Truck - UK and US (also Porter's Truck in BrE) For example: http://www.parrs.co.uk/images/products/H029_xl.jpg SignaturePeter Duncanson UK (posting from a.e.u) [...] > There is the Hand Truck - UK and US (also Porter's Truck in BrE) > For example: > http://www.parrs.co.uk/images/products/H029_xl.jpg Or sack truck: I have one of these handy vehicles, and would sometimes find life difficult without it. When I bought it from the local branch of the Carmarthen Farmers' Co-op, I suddenly noticed, and pointed out to the attendant staff, the absurdity of my behaviour in *carrying* it out. British laymen generally referred to the railway ones as "porters' trolleys". I also have -- I must confess I sort-of stole it -- a solid four-wheeled steel thing with castors at one end which can take a piano: when he was nine, my son was able to move a full freezer from one end of the house to the other on it. I don't know the proper name for this hot property. Mike. >[...] >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >one end of the house to the other on it. I don't know the proper name >for this hot property. I think that is a "piano trolley". http://www.fletcher-newman.co.uk/catalogue/removal_equipment/ The ones I recall were wooden - but that was a few decades ago. SignaturePeter Duncanson UK (posting from a.e.u) >>[...] >>> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > >The ones I recall were wooden - but that was a few decades ago. You can get things like that with castors, for putting under fridges and other appliances to make them easily moveable. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England > >>> There is the Hand Truck - UK and US (also Porter's Truck in BrE) > >>> For example: [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > You can get things like that with castors, for putting under fridges and > other appliances to make them easily moveable. I would call a flat wheeled frame or platform like that, for heavy items, a "dolly." I grew up calling the vertical "hand truck" a "dolly," too, until I was set straight some time later, probably in Boston. I looked through Google Images for a dolly -- do you know how many pictures of Dolly Parton and Dolly the Sheep there are on the Web? Anyway, I saw an assortment of sizes and shapes of carrier-type dollies on there, such as this one, which happens to have a handle: http://www.mediagab.it/filmmaker/Dolly.GIF SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux >>>>>There is the Hand Truck - UK and US (also Porter's Truck in BrE) >>>>>For example: [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > on there, such as this one, which happens to have a handle: > http://www.mediagab.it/filmmaker/Dolly.GIF You should have googled "flat dolly". You definitely would not get Dolly Parton. The one I have in the garage is wooden with carpeted cross pieces and swiveling castors on the corners, each of which vies to be the leader. It takes a great deal of talent to get it to roll straight through narrow hallways without hitting the walls. [...] > >>>>I also have -- I must confess I sort-of stole it -- a solid > >>>>four-wheeled steel thing with castors at one end which can take a [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > takes a great deal of talent to get it to roll straight through narrow > hallways without hitting the walls. Ah, maybe you should de-swivel the castors at the back: it must be possible. Mine has castors only at the front, or towing-handle end, and it's pretty easy to steer. Mike. > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Mike. I've thought about that often, but the thought usually hits me when I go to use it. After I am finished with it, I don't think about it until the next time I need it. >[...] >> >>>> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >possible. Mine has castors only at the front, or towing-handle end, >and it's pretty easy to steer. I've got a waist-height tray thing on castors like that, one set de-swiveled, with a car battery, trickle charger, tools and jump leads "just in case". It's very heavy. Invariably I pull the thing from the wrong end when trying to move it, and end up with chaos in the garage. The end of the thing with the swiveling castors just goes where it wants to. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England >>> Donna Richoux wrote: >>>>>>> I also have -- I must confess I sort-of stole it -- a solid >>>>>>> four-wheeled steel thing with castors at one end which can take [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > garage. The end of the thing with the swiveling castors just goes > where it wants to. OK -- I can take this no longer -- isn't "castor" only an alternate (secondary) spelling for "caster" in the UK and thus not the usual one? As far as I know, it is not a valid spelling in the USA for the item being discussed. SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) www.geocities.com/opus731/ >>>>>>>>I also have -- I must confess I sort-of stole it -- a solid >>>>>>>>four-wheeled steel thing with castors at one end which can take [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > As far as I know, it is not a valid spelling in the USA for the item being > discussed. I've always spelled it castor, although I don't write it often. From the on-line AHD http://www.bartleby.com/61/75/C0147500.html SYLLABICATION: cast·er PRONUNCIATION: kstr NOUN: 1. One that casts: a caster of nets. 2. also cas·tor ( kstr) A small wheel on a swivel, attached under a piece of furniture or other heavy object to make it easier to move. 3. also castor a. A small bottle, pot, or shaker for holding a condiment. b. A stand for a set of condiment containers. >>>> Donna Richoux wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] >As far as I know, it is not a valid spelling in the USA for the item being >discussed. From COD10: castor1 /"kA;st@/ (also caster) · n. 1 each of a set of small swivelling wheels fixed to the legs or base of a heavy piece of furniture. 2 a small container with holes in the top, used for sprinkling the contents. ORIGIN C17: orig. a var. of caster. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England > OK -- I can take this no longer -- isn't "castor" only an alternate > (secondary) spelling for "caster" in the UK and thus not the usual > one? No. The wheelie thing on a trolley or a chairleg can be spelt either way, but is more usually "castor" than "caster". NSOED says: : caster n. In branch II also (& more usual in sense 4) -or. LME. : [f. CAST v. + -ER 1.] [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] : stability; : caster sugar finely granulated white sugar. (Castor as in oil, and /castor/ the beaver have separate entries.) Incidentally, the NSOED also describes the use of "alternate" to mean "alternative" (as you have done) as "rare" and "chiefly N.American" - but perhaps you knew that. Cheers, Daniel. >> OK -- I can take this no longer -- isn't "castor" only an >> alternate (secondary) spelling for "caster" in the UK and thus >> not the usual one? > > No. The wheelie thing on a trolley or a chairleg can be spelt > either way, but is more usually "castor" than "caster". This looks like a pondian difference. I would never use "castor" in the US, except when referring to the oil. SignatureRay Heindl (remove the Xs to reply) >>> OK -- I can take this no longer -- isn't "castor" only an >>> alternate (secondary) spelling for "caster" in the UK and thus [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >This looks like a pondian difference. I would never use "castor" in >the US, except when referring to the oil. Good Lord, Man! What do you keep your condiments in? > >>> OK -- I can take this no longer -- isn't "castor" only an > >>> alternate (secondary) spelling for "caster" in the UK and thus [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Good Lord, Man! What do you keep your condiments in? But I think that *is* a caster: you use it to cast stuff. (Note irritating and irrational tendency of British cookery books to use "castor" for the sugar you put in one.) Mike. >(Note >irritating and irrational tendency of British cookery books to use >"castor" for the sugar you put in one.) The usual BrE term, and spelling, is "caster sugar", not "castor". SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove number to reply > >(Note > >irritating and irrational tendency of British cookery books to use > >"castor" for the sugar you put in one.) > > The usual BrE term, and spelling, is "caster sugar", not "castor". Katy, I wish that were true: but check through the cookery writers. Mike. >>> (Note >>> irritating and irrational tendency of British cookery books to use [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Katy, I wish that were true: but check through the cookery writers. From AskOxford Which is correct 'caster sugar' or 'castor sugar'? Both are right. The spelling castor sugar used to be the prevailing one, but caster sugar seems to be more usual now, perhaps because it is used by some sugar manufacturers on their packaging. UKGoogle "castor sugar" - 1440 UKGoogle "caster sugar" - 8750 m. >> >(Note >> >irritating and irrational tendency of British cookery books to use [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Katy, I wish that were true: but check through the cookery writers. I admit I was going by the label on the packet of Tate & Lyle's caster sugar in my kitchen. That and having learnt it as "caster sugar" 50 years ago. I don't usually read cookery writers, but one I do have time for, Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall, also spells it "caster". I've just checked The Penguin Companion to Food, by Alan Davidson, which someone gave us as a present last year. He says "Caster sugar is so named because it is of the right fineness for use in a sugar caster or sprinkler. (The spelling 'castor' is now quite common.)" Oh, all right, I give in. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove number to reply >>>> OK -- I can take this no longer -- isn't "castor" only an >>>> alternate (secondary) spelling for "caster" in the UK and thus [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Good Lord, Man! What do you keep your condiments in? Cruets. cruet /"kru;It/ · n. 1 a small container for salt, pepper, oil, or vinegar for use at a dining table. Ø (also cruet stand) Brit. a stand holding such containers. 2 (in church use) a small container for the wine or water to be used in the celebration of the Eucharist. ORIGIN ME: from Anglo-Norman Fr., dimin. of OFr. crue pot, from Old Saxon krGka; rel. to crock2. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England >>>>>OK -- I can take this no longer -- isn't "castor" only an >>>>>alternate (secondary) spelling for "caster" in the UK and thus [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > – ORIGIN ME: from Anglo-Norman Fr., dimin. of OFr. crue ‘pot’, from Old > Saxon krGka; rel. to crock2. When my aunt and uncle got married in 1945, they received 11 (eleven) cruet sets as wedding presents. SignatureFrances Kemmish Production Manager East Coast Youth Ballet www.byramartscenter.com >>> No. The wheelie thing on a trolley or a chairleg can be spelt >>> either way, but is more usually "castor" than "caster". [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Good Lord, Man! What do you keep your condiments in? The fridge mostly, except the ketchup, which I keep in a cupboard, and the salt and pepper, which live on a shelf. SignatureRay Heindl (remove the Xs to reply) >>>> No. The wheelie thing on a trolley or a chairleg can be spelt >>>> either way, but is more usually "castor" than "caster". [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >The fridge mostly, except the ketchup, which I keep in a cupboard, and >the salt and pepper, which live on a shelf. Add a little class to your home from: http://www.grantique.com/p38-1215-heavy-sterling-silver-cut-glass-sugar-caster.html I'm not sure, though, if they have one suited for the little packets of catsup, mustard, and soy sauce that you have. >>>> No. The wheelie thing on a trolley or a chairleg can be spelt >>>> either way, but is more usually "castor" than "caster". [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >The fridge mostly, except the ketchup, which I keep in a cupboard, and >the salt and pepper, which live on a shelf. I hope you're joking. Ketchup should be kept in the fridge after opening, as should mayonnaise. Nearly all other condiments, mustard included, can safely be kept on a shelf. All the sort that can be shaken from a castor belong on a shelf or on the table within easy reach, never in the fridge. SignatureCharles Riggs Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net > >>>> No. The wheelie thing on a trolley or a chairleg can be spelt > >>>> either way, but is more usually "castor" than "caster". [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I hope you're joking. Ketchup should be kept in the fridge after > opening, [...] Good heavens! I've just checked, and Mr Heinz agrees with you. We keep it in a cupboard, without ill effect. The stuff is quite acid enough to look after itself -- even back-of-the-cupboard survivors one didn't know were there never seem to be mouldy. Mike. >> >> Good Lord, Man! What do you keep your condiments in? >> > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > enough to look after itself -- even back-of-the-cupboard survivors > one didn't know were there never seem to be mouldy. My Heinz bottle doesn't say anything about refrigeration; apparently the Rightpondian labeling is different from the Left. Never having seen ketchup go bad, I don't feel any need to mend my ways. SignatureRay Heindl (remove the Xs to reply) >>> I hope you're joking. Ketchup should be kept in the fridge after >>> opening, [...] [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >the Rightpondian labeling is different from the Left. Never having >seen ketchup go bad, I don't feel any need to mend my ways. Then feast your eyes on this, from the same web we all know is infallible: To find out the bottling date on Heinz Ketchup, look at the cap to find a four-digit number. The first three digits indicate the day, while the fourth digit indicates the year. Unopened bottles of ketchup can be stored up to one year in a cool, dry place. Once opened, you can store it in a cool environment out of the sun for about a month. For longer shelf life after opening, refrigerate. Refer to expiration dates on the container. Storing opened ketchup in a heated environment such as in direct sunlight or in a kitchen that is constantly hot can invite fermentation which can actually cause a minor explosion when opening the container. The explosion makes the ketchup squirt out when opened which probably won't be harmful to you, but it will make quite a mess and stain your clothing. Discard any ketchup that shows signs of fermentation. Exposure to direct sunlight will also darken ketchup. To keep homemade ketchup's bright red color, wrap jars in tin foil. One 16-ounce bottle will yield 1-2/3 cups of ketchup. SignatureCharles Riggs Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net > > >>> I hope you're joking. Ketchup should be kept in the fridge after [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Then feast your eyes on this, from the same web we all know is > infallible: [...amusingly scary stuff snipped...] Ray, I had to take off the varifocals to read it, but the small print on the neck label of the British version says "After opening, refrigerate..." Mike. >> >My Heinz bottle doesn't say anything about refrigeration; >> >apparently the Rightpondian labeling is different from the Left. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > print on the neck label of the British version says "After > opening, refrigerate..." Nope, not a word about it, on either of my two bottles, even with my glasses off. Maybe Heinz figures (probably correctly) that nobody reads the labels on ketchup bottles anyway. SignatureRay Heindl (remove the Xs to reply) >>>>>I hope you're joking. Ketchup should be kept in the fridge after >>>>>opening, [...] [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > on the neck label of the British version says "After opening, > refrigerate..." My Australian version too. (I also had difficulty in seeing the small print, which no doubt why I had never noticed it before.) SignatureRob Bannister << [Mike Lyle] (re Ketchup) Ray, I had to take off the varifocals to read it, but the small print on the neck label of the British version says "After opening, refrigerate..." [end quote] >> << [Rob Bannister] My Australian version too. (I also had difficulty in seeing the small print, which no doubt why I had never noticed it before.) [end quote] >> << [Rob Bannister] Nope, not a word about it, on either of my two bottles, even with my glasses off. Maybe Heinz figures (probably correctly) that nobody reads the labels on ketchup bottles anyway. [end quote] >> My two different types of Trader Joe's ketchup show "Refrigerate after opening" in big letters just above the ingredients. -- --------------------------------------------- Richard Maurer To reply, remove half Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > << [Mike Lyle] (re Ketchup) > Ray, I had to take off the varifocals to read it, but the small print [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > reads the labels on ketchup bottles anyway. > [end quote] >> Hey! I didn't write that. In fact, after investigation, I specifically said that I had found the warning. SignatureRob Bannister << [Rob Bannister] Nope, not a word about it, on either of my two bottles, even with my glasses off. Maybe Heinz figures (probably correctly) that nobody reads the labels on ketchup bottles anyway. [end quote] >> << [Rob Bannister] Hey! I didn't write that. In fact, after investigation, I specifically said that I had found the warning. [end quote] >> Oops. The first should have been attributed to Ray Heindl -- --------------------------------------------- Richard Maurer To reply, remove half Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> I hope you're joking. Ketchup should be kept in the fridge after >>>> opening, [...] [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >To keep homemade ketchup's bright red color, wrap jars in tin foil. >One 16-ounce bottle will yield 1-2/3 cups of ketchup. Charles, the cap on my bottle says: 12 - 2004 2763000ECF2 Which can't be right, since today is the 12th and the bottle has only about 1" left. Mike SignatureM.J.Powell >>My Heinz bottle doesn't say anything about refrigeration; >>apparently the Rightpondian labeling is different from the Left. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > find a four-digit number. The first three digits indicate the day, > while the fourth digit indicates the year. My two bottles have codes of FR2H09E and FR3H25W, so I apparently have no way to find out when they were made. Where did you find this? Maybe the same site would explain these heiroglyphics. > Unopened bottles of > ketchup can be stored up to one year in a cool, dry place. Once [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > harmful to you, but it will make quite a mess and stain your > clothing. The only time I've had ketchup spurt that way was when a bottle stored in the fridge was left out to warm to room temperature before being opened -- another reason to store it in the cupboard. > Discard any ketchup that shows signs of fermentation. > Exposure to direct sunlight will also darken ketchup. To keep > homemade ketchup's bright red color, wrap jars in tin foil. One > 16-ounce bottle will yield 1-2/3 cups of ketchup. Aha, there's the key: "tin foil". Whoever wrote this probably lines his hat with the stuff. At the risk of veering dangerously on-topic, do most people call aluminum foil "tin foil"? SignatureRay Heindl (remove the Xs to reply) > At the risk of veering dangerously on-topic, do most people call > aluminum foil "tin foil"? Doesn't look like. Google gives a ratio of about 5:1 in favor of "aluminum". I say both, but "aluminum" more frequently. ...I guess that means that it's possible that most people _do_ call it "tin foil", as long as most people do so less often than they call it "aluminum foil". -Aaron J. Dinkin Dr. Whom >At the risk of veering dangerously on-topic, do most people call >aluminum foil "tin foil"? All red-blooded Americans do so. Yes, I know, it isn't made from tin, but that is what it is traditionally called. SignatureCharles Riggs Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net >>At the risk of veering dangerously on-topic, do most people call >>aluminum foil "tin foil"? > >All red-blooded Americans do so. Yes, I know, it isn't made from tin, >but that is what it is traditionally called. You're supposed to keep that under your hat. > At the risk of veering dangerously on-topic, do most people call > aluminum foil "tin foil"? At a guess, because the first domestic foils *were* made of tin, but when it became possible to manufacture thin foils of aluminium cheaply and on a large scale alumnium came to be used instead. In much the same way that "tin cans" were once sheet steel sealed and lined with tin to prevent corrosion of the steel (and consequent contamiation of the contents) they are now made or brazed or welded steel (or of aluminium, in the case of many tinned drinks) lined with polythene. I recall a time when, as a Chemistry undergraduate, I did an electon microscopy practical in the Metallurgy Department: Demonstrator: What are you doing? Me: preparing a sample of tin-foil for the electron microscope. Demonstrator: That's not tin foil, that's aluminium. Me: Of course! What else would you make tin-foil out of? Demonstrator: Argh! Chemists! Cheers, Daniel. >>>>>>No. The wheelie thing on a trolley or a chairleg can be spelt >>>>>>either way, but is more usually "castor" than "caster". [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > to look after itself -- even back-of-the-cupboard survivors one didn't > know were there never seem to be mouldy. Looks as if I'll have to check the bottle too. Here in Australia, I keep all sorts of things in the fridge that, allegedly, I shouldn't: bread, jam, red wine... but my Heinz ketchup remains in the cupboard - so far with no ill effects. SignatureRob Bannister >> Good heavens! I've just checked, and Mr Heinz agrees with you. We >> keep it in a cupboard, without ill effect. The stuff is quite [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > shouldn't: bread, jam, red wine... but my Heinz ketchup remains in > the cupboard - so far with no ill effects. I've heard, but never believed, the bit about not keeping bread in the fridge. But what's wrong with keeping jam there? Won't it eventually go moldy if kept at room temp after opening? SignatureRay Heindl (remove the Xs to reply) >>>Good heavens! I've just checked, and Mr Heinz agrees with you. We >>>keep it in a cupboard, without ill effect. The stuff is quite [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > fridge. But what's wrong with keeping jam there? Won't it eventually > go moldy if kept at room temp after opening? I buy 3 or 4 loaves of bread at a time and freeze all except the one I intend to use. When I get down to the last few slices in the current loaf, I get a frozen loaf from the freezer and leave it out for an hour or so. I always keep my jam (and ketchup)in the fridge. Just to add... There is no statement to 'refrigerate after opening' on any of the three labels on my (US) 60.6 oz. Heinz ketchup bottle (plastic). >>> Looks as if I'll have to check the bottle too. Here in Australia, >>> I keep all sorts of things in the fridge that, allegedly, I [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Just to add... There is no statement to 'refrigerate after opening' on > any of the three labels on my (US) 60.6 oz. Heinz ketchup bottle (plastic). I don't buy sliced bread. I bake almost all of mine anyway and I have an electric slicer that I originally bought for slicing salami. I didn't believe the thing about refrigerating Heinz ketchup to start with - I read the bottle three times - but then I found it. The print was fairly small. SignatureRob Bannister >I've heard, but never believed, the bit about not keeping bread in the >fridge. I don't believe it either. I find that bread lasts slightly longer if kept there. A bread box might be better, I don't know for I've never used one. > But what's wrong with keeping jam there? Won't it eventually >go moldy if kept at room temp after opening? My marmalade never has, although it will get runny if I don't use all of it within about a month. In the fridge, it becomes too viscous to be spreadable, so that's not an option for me. Chris Malcolm may have access to something better, but the best I've found here, by far, is Baxters Luxury Thick Cut Seville Orange Marmalade, by the way. I just noticed the cap says refrigerate after opening. I'm going to pretend I didn't read that. SignatureCharles Riggs Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net >>I've heard, but never believed, the bit about not keeping bread in >>the fridge. > > I don't believe it either. I find that bread lasts slightly longer > if kept there. A bread box might be better, I don't know for I've > never used one. That's my impression too, but I've never conducted a scienterrific test. I vaguely recall reading that refrigeration caused something in the bread to crystallize more rapidly, causing it to go stale sooner. But freezing was said to be fine. Go figure. >> But what's wrong with keeping jam there? Won't it eventually >>go moldy if kept at room temp after opening? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > refrigerate after opening. I'm going to pretend I didn't read > that. I'm more of a raspberry preserves fan, but I don't really know what happens if the preserves are stored at room temperature. It would probably be too runny, but whether it would go bad is beyond my ken. SignatureRay Heindl (remove the Xs to reply) On Tue, 13 Jan 2004, in alt.usage.english, Ray Heindl <raheindl@xnccwx.net> writes >I'm more of a raspberry preserves fan, but I don't really know what >happens if the preserves are stored at room temperature. It would >probably be too runny, but whether it would go bad is beyond my ken. Isn't the whole point of a preserve to preserve the fruit for a (relatively) long time? Preserves existed before refrigerators were common. SignatureMark Browne If replying by email, please use the "Reply-To" address, as the "From" address will be rejected > Ray Heindl writes >> I'm more of a raspberry preserves fan, but I don't really know what >> happens if the preserves are stored at room temperature. It would [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > (relatively) long time? Preserves existed before refrigerators were > common. All true, but the preserving grew to be limited in time once the container was opened. Still does. SignatureSkitt (in SF Bay Area) ... and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana-shaped. -- Sir Bedevere >> Ray Heindl writes > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > All true, but the preserving grew to be limited in time once the > container was opened. Still does. Jelly jars used to be "sealed" by pouring wax over the contents, which I imagine doesn't produce a reliable hermetic seal. So the jelly would have to be pretty stable to avoid turning yucky (the technical term) over the years. I presume it's the high sugar content that keeps the nasties from growing. Also, modern preserves are probably designed more to taste good than to actually preserve anything. It wouldn't surprise me if they weren't as shelf-stable as preserves were back when they were intended to prevent scurvy rather than please the palate. SignatureRay Heindl (remove the Xs to reply) >>> Ray Heindl writes >>>> I'm more of a raspberry preserves fan, but I don't really know >>>> what happens if the preserves are stored at room temperature. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Jelly jars used to be "sealed" by pouring wax over the contents, which > I imagine doesn't produce a reliable hermetic seal. It doesn't? It sure seemed to when my mom did the sealing. > So the jelly > would have to be pretty stable to avoid turning yucky (the technical > term) over the years. I presume it's the high sugar content that > keeps the nasties from growing. That too, I suppose. > Also, modern preserves are probably designed more to taste good than > to actually preserve anything. It wouldn't surprise me if they > weren't as shelf-stable as preserves were back when they were > intended to prevent scurvy rather than please the palate. They are also put up in jars that seal more easily and more reliably, even for inexperienced preserve makers. SignatureSkitt It's like Jesus said -- give a man a fish, and he'll know where to come for fish. Teach a man to fish, and you've destroyed your marketbase. >> Jelly jars used to be "sealed" by pouring wax over the contents, >> which I imagine doesn't produce a reliable hermetic seal. > > It doesn't? It sure seemed to when my mom did the sealing. But they come unsealed so easily that I wouldn't want to count on its staying sealed for long. All it takes is a little push on one edge of the wax, and the disc tips up. At least that's my recollection; your mileage, as they abbreviate, may vary. SignatureRay Heindl (remove the Xs to reply) >>> Jelly jars used to be "sealed" by pouring wax over the contents, >>> which I imagine doesn't produce a reliable hermetic seal. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > the wax, and the disc tips up. At least that's my recollection; your > mileage, as they abbreviate, may vary. Yabbut, why push? Besides, most of my mom's jars also had screw-on lids, as I recall. They protected the wax from any inadvertent pushes. SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) www.geocities.com/opus731/ >>>> Jelly jars used to be "sealed" by pouring wax over the >>>> contents, which I imagine doesn't produce a reliable hermetic [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > screw-on lids, as I recall. They protected the wax from any > inadvertent pushes. It seems to me that anything that easy to dislodge by hand would be easy to dislodge accidentally, by tipping over the jar f'rinstance. I don't remember what covered the mouth of the jar, possibly a big cap that had to be pried off with a special tool, or maybe one of those two-piece screw-on lids. SignatureRay Heindl (remove the Xs to reply) >>>>> Jelly jars used to be "sealed" by pouring wax over the >>>>> contents, which I imagine doesn't produce a reliable hermetic [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > It seems to me that anything that easy to dislodge by hand would be > easy to dislodge accidentally, by tipping over the jar f'rinstance. Now, why would one do that? Good grief, are you clumsy, or something? Besides, our preserves were kept in a basement pantry where no one messed around, except to get another jar of the preserves. > I don't remember what covered the mouth of the jar, possibly a big > cap that had to be pried off with a special tool, or maybe one of > those two-piece screw-on lids. Most of my mom's jars had something like that, I think. SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) www.geocities.com/opus731/ >>>>> Jelly jars used to be "sealed" by pouring wax over the >>>>> contents, which I imagine doesn't produce a reliable hermetic [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >that had to be pried off with a special tool, or maybe one of those >two-piece screw-on lids. My grandmother canned - or rather jarred - and used a layer of paraffin to seal the contents. The jars, though, were Mason jars with two-piece lids and rubber seals. The paraffin was dislodged when the jar was opened for the first time. Until used, the jars stood in rows in the cool, dark basement. tony_cooper213@mungedyahoo.com spake thus: > My grandmother canned - or rather jarred - and used a layer of > paraffin to seal the contents. The jars, though, were Mason jars with > two-piece lids and rubber seals. The paraffin was dislodged when the > jar was opened for the first time. Until used, the jars stood in rows > in the cool, dark basement. That must surely be "liquid paraffin" in my terms, otherwise the food would be rather spoilt. Liquid paraffin had a medical use of some sort, like cod liver oil, but I have no idea what it was made of. SignatureDavid ===== > tony_cooper213@mungedyahoo.com spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > That must surely be "liquid paraffin" in my terms, otherwise the food > would be rather spoilt. No, "paraffin" (used alone) in US usage means what we would call "paraffin wax". What we call "paraffin" they call "kerosene". > Liquid paraffin had a medical use of some sort, like cod liver oil, > but I have no idea what it was made of. It's a petroluem fraction - like petrol, but consisting of larger and less volatile molecules. It's a clear liquid with approximately the cosistency of glycerine (at room temperature, at least). Cheers, Daniel. > tony_cooper213@mungedyahoo.com spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > would be rather spoilt. Liquid paraffin had a medical use of some > sort, like cod liver oil, but I have no idea what it was made of. In the US, paraffin is wax, synthetic wax, as for candles. You buy a box of the stuff, solid. You melt a chunk of it carefully, as they warned us it was flammable. We used a double-boiler. You nearly fill the jar with jam. You pour a layer of (liquid) paraffin over it. It cools into a solid covering, keeping the air out of the jam. When it comes time to open, you run a knife-blade around the edge to loosen it, and push-pull it up. From then on, you covered the glass jar with its own metal lid. If you used a jar with a narrower mouth, you were in trouble, because you couldn't get the solid chunk of wax past the opening. "Paraffin" in the UK is what we call kerosene in the US. I would advise not pouring kerosene over jam. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux trio@euronet.nl spake thus: > > tony_cooper213@mungedyahoo.com spake thus: > > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > "Paraffin" in the UK is what we call kerosene in the US. I would advise > not pouring kerosene over jam. Indeed. So, we have two substances - paraffin/kerosine and paraffin wax/paraffin. So what was the stuff given to 1950s children as some sort of medicine, which I remember as "liquid paraffin"? Am I making this up? SignatureDavid ===== >trio@euronet.nl spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >sort of medicine, which I remember as "liquid paraffin"? Am I making >this up? No. It is still available, I understand. We need a chemist to give a proper explanation. However, I think that Paraffin (sometimes Parafin) is the name for a variety of related hydrocarbons - ranging from waxy to liquid. Liquid paraffin is highly refined, and of pharmaceutical grade. The NODE says: <quote> paraffin noun (Brit. paraffin wax) [mass noun] a flammable, whitish, translucent, waxy solid consisting of a mixture of saturated hydrocarbons, obtained by distillation from petroleum or shale and used in candles, cosmetics, polishes, and sealing and waterproofing compounds. (also paraffin oil or liquid paraffin) Brit. a colourless, flammable, oily liquid similarly obtained and used as fuel, especially kerosene. </quote> SignaturePeter Duncanson UK (posting from a.e.u) > We need a chemist to give a proper explanation. However, I think that > Paraffin (sometimes Parafin) is the name for a variety of related > hydrocarbons - ranging from waxy to liquid. Yes; I believe that although the term originally applied to a certain (comparatively unrefined) natural product, it was later adopted for all saturated (& acyclic) aliphatic hydrocarbons, which have the empirical formula C_n_H_2n+2_ and belong to the family of compounds known as "alkanes". It alludes to their low chemical reactivity (other than the flammability of their vapours, of course). SignatureOdysseus >trio@euronet.nl spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >sort of medicine, which I remember as "liquid paraffin"? Am I making >this up? No, it does exist. Daniel James posted about it too. The USP term for it is "Mineral Oil". Also known as vaseline oil, and various other names. Its main uses are in the treatment of chronic constipation and as an ointment; its routine administration to children is now strongly deprected. "Prolonged use should be avoided", says my pharmacopoeia. Its use in food has been prohibited since 1966. SignatureDon Aitken Mail to the addresses given in the headers is no longer being read. To mail me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com". don-aitken@freeuk.com spake thus: > >trio@euronet.nl spake thus: > > [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > deprected. "Prolonged use should be avoided", says my pharmacopoeia. > Its use in food has been prohibited since 1966. I've remembered that it was assumed to be the oily stuff coating sultanas, currants and the like, which was added to stop them clumping together. I was taught to wash dried fruit and dry it on a tea towel when making cakes, to get rid of the oil. Aha. Dried fruit still comes oiled, but the packet says "vegetable oil". SignatureDavid ===== >don-aitken@freeuk.com spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] >Aha. Dried fruit still comes oiled, but the packet says "vegetable >oil". There is (or was in 1966) an exemption to the prohibition for dried fruit, but the maximum allowed was 0.5%. SignatureDon Aitken Mail to the addresses given in the headers is no longer being read. To mail me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com". >... its routine administration to children is now strongly >deprected. "Prolonged use should be avoided", says my pharmacopoeia. >Its use in food has been prohibited since 1966. Ah yes "deprected". Most apropos typo - excess presence of paraffin in the alimentary canal causing a condition known as deprectum. Impacted, deprected, resected... Jitze > trio@euronet.nl spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > sort of medicine, which I remember as "liquid paraffin"? Am I making > this up? Nope. Liquid paraffin was certainly still around in the 70s when a friend recommended it to me when I had a bout of piles. I checked with my GP and he said it would do no harm. It reduces your stool to a sludge-like consistency which is less painful to pass than the conventional turtle-heads et al - important while you're waiting for the Anusol to bite. It also relieves constipation. I bought it over the counter at the local Chemist. I assume it's still available. -- John Dean Oxford De-frag to reply >trio@euronet.nl spake thus: >> "Paraffin" in the UK is what we call kerosene in the US. I would advise >> not pouring kerosene over jam. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >sort of medicine, which I remember as "liquid paraffin"? Am I making >this up? That is a third substance. There is paraffin, which is a liquid, but not liquid paraffin There is liquid paraffin, which is liquid, but not paraffin (you don't use it for lighting lamps) There is paraffin wax, which is used for making candles, and is distinguished from other kinds of wax used for making candles, like beeswax. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk hayesmstw@hotmail.com spake thus: > >trio@euronet.nl spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > There is liquid paraffin, which is liquid, but not paraffin (you don't use it > for lighting lamps) OK, but what is it? SignatureDavid ===== > > There is liquid paraffin, which is liquid, but not paraffin (you don't use it > > for lighting lamps) > > OK, but what is it? Someone already mentioned the usual North American term "mineral oil". It's a petroleum product, in chemical terms a mixture of various chainlike molecules with formulae such as C_15_H_32_ (which is that of pentadecane). I don't know the distribution of molecular weights that are typically included -- at any rate there likely exists a range of different compositions in products used for various purposes -- but since the pure n-alkanes up to heptadecane are all liquid at room temperature I would guess the main constituents to include the heavier of these (and possibly also some slightly heavier still, perhaps up to eicosane, C_20_H_42_). Kerosene (N.Am.), the fuel variety of paraffin, is intermediate in weight and volatility between gasoline (petrol) and mineral oil. The constituents of paraffin wax run from eicosane up to C_25_H_52_ or so. SignatureOdysseus >hayesmstw@hotmail.com spake thus: >> There is paraffin, which is a liquid, but not liquid paraffin [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >OK, but what is it? I don't know. It's something other people used when I was at school. They used to take it internall from bottles, something you wuold never do with paraffin. Parrafin I knew, because we used it a lot for lighting and cooking at home, and nobody would dream of drinking it. And it looked liquid to me. Perhaps I'd better check the dictionary, instead of relying on memories of my 9-year-old self. paraffin or (less comonly) paraffine, also called paraffin oil (esp. US & Canadian) kerosene; a liquid mixture consisting mainly of alkane hydrocarbons with boiling points in the range 150-300C, and used as an aircraft fuel, in domestic heaters, and as a solvent. liquid paraffin, n. a colourless and almost tasteless oily liquid obtained by petroleum distillation and used as a laxative. Also called, esp. U.S. and Canadian) mineral oil SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk Hi, >So, we have two substances - paraffin/kerosine and paraffin >wax/paraffin. So what was the stuff given to 1950s children as some >sort of medicine, which I remember as "liquid paraffin"? Am I making >this up? You're not making it up. It is still available, and is used as a laxative. SignatureRegards, Glenn Booth > trio@euronet.nl spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > sort of medicine, which I remember as "liquid paraffin"? Am I making > this up? My English grandmother lived through the war in London. For many years after, even here in Canada, she had a taste for cooking with paraffin. I was very young when she died, and so my memories are foggy, but I think I was told it was because fat was scarce or rationed during the war, and so people would use paraffin instead. I may be quite wrong in what I'm remembering, so am not posting this as gospel: I was just waiting for someone to bring this up, and no one has yet, so I wondered if anyone else had heard of this. > > trio@euronet.nl spake thus: > > [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > gospel: I was just waiting for someone to bring this up, and no one > has yet, so I wondered if anyone else had heard of this. For part of the war, we lived in a house that had a kerosene stove for cooking, and a coal stove for heating (yes, it was potbellied). To start the coal fire, a half-cup of kerosene tossed in on top of newspapers laid under the coals sped up the process. (And it made a wonderful "Whoosh!") I can recall the fat rationing, as Mom was able to trade some accumulated fat for points in order to get other rationed products, probably sugar. What a luxury that was! To think we had enough meat with fat on it to enable us to trade it in for sugar! Of course, there may have been a bit of blackmarketeering going on, from time to time. In the US, the fuel kerosene, or coal gas*, never bore the name paraffin, as far as I know. I can't imagine anyone cooking with the liquid variety as a grease substitute. As for cooking with kerosene, some people claim to have tasted it in the food, but I never did. *I have heard the natural gas used in many US homes for cooking, heating, and water heaters sometimes referred to as coal gas, so I usually ask people to be specific as to usage. > In the US, the fuel kerosene, or coal gas*, never bore the name > paraffin, as far as I know. "Coal gas"? Are you sure you don't mean "gas oil"? "Coal gas" is a made by heating coal, and uses as a fuel (supplied to homes and businesses in pipes). Also known as "town gas". "Gas oil" is a liquid mineral oil, a petroleum fraction. It usually refers to a fraction just slightly less volatile than kerosene. It is kerosene that is generally referred to simply as "paraffin" in the UK, not either coal gas or gas oil. > *I have heard the natural gas used in many US homes for cooking, heating, > and water heaters sometimes referred to as coal gas, so I usually ask > people to be specific as to usage. Natural gas is gas that is found naturally in the ground, usually above oil; it isn't the same as coal gas at all. Coal gas is mostly hydrogen but also contains a certain amount of other gases such as methane and carbon monoxide. The carbon monoxide makes it rather poisonous, so some other component (usually ethene (which used to be called ethylene)) is added to give it a distinctive smell. Natural gas is almost entirely methane and contains virtually no carbon monoxide, and so is not poisonous, and so is usually not "scented". Cheers, Daniel. Signature"Cola gas" OTOH, if not a typo for "coal gas", is something else entirely. >> In the US, the fuel kerosene, or coal gas*, never bore the name >> paraffin, as far as I know. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >contains virtually no carbon monoxide, and so is not poisonous, and so is >usually not "scented". I think that most or all of the town gas in the UK is natural gas these days. I'm not sure whether we're self-sufficient from the North Sea or if we buy some of it in from elsewhere. I have a vague recollection of coal gas being formed as a result of the coking process on coal. We still have coking plants to produce high-quality coke for steel production, and apparently the by-products are collected. http://www.industrialcenter.org/HeatTreat/MetalsAdvisor/iron_and_steel/process_d escriptions/raw_metals_preparation/coking/coking_process_description.htm Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England > I think that most or all of the town gas in the UK is natural gas these > days. No, town gas *means* coal gas. The gas we pipe into towns isn't town gas any more, now that we use natural gas instead. That's language for ya! > I have a vague recollection of coal gas being formed as a result of the > coking process on coal. Town/coal gas, naphtha, ammonia ... you name it, really, Coal contains an immensely rich cocktail of organics, noxious and otherwise. Cheers, Daniel. >> I think that most or all of the town gas in the UK is natural gas these >> days. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >That's language for ya! Yebbut.. We tend to call it 'town gas' if it comes through pipes to the property, to distinguish it from those country areas of the UK which do not have piped gas, and which depend on tanks of butane or heating oil in their gardens. >> I have a vague recollection of coal gas being formed as a result of the >> coking process on coal. > >Town/coal gas, naphtha, ammonia ... you name it, really, Coal contains an >immensely rich cocktail of organics, noxious and otherwise. As does crude oil, probably originally created by similar processes of heat and pressure on organic matter. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England > >No, town gas *means* coal gas. The gas we pipe into towns isn't town > >gas any more, now that we use natural gas instead. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > not have piped gas, and which depend on tanks of butane or heating oil > in their gardens. That's only true for certain selective values of "we". The gas industry uses "town gas" very specifically to mean "coal gas". I would say "piped gas" or "bottled gas" to distinguish between piped natural gas and bottled LPG used as domestic fuels (but that's partly because I know that "town gas" has that specific meaning). [LPG - sorry for introducing yet another new term to the discussion - is Liquid Petroleum Gas, and is usually used to mean a mixture consisting mostly of propane and butanes.] > >> I have a vague recollection of coal gas being formed as a result of > >> the coking process on coal. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > As does crude oil, probably originally created by similar processes of > heat and pressure on organic matter. Well, yes, indeed. They're both very old compressed compost. I meant to say that I believe coke was first made as a by-product of the process whereby town gas and other petrochemicals were manufactured from coal, and only later came to be regarded as a major product in its own right when the problems of coal-smoke pollution started to be recognized. Cheers, Daniel. >>>No, town gas *means* coal gas. The gas we pipe into towns isn't town >>>gas any more, now that we use natural gas instead. [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > coal, and only later came to be regarded as a major product in its own > right when the problems of coal-smoke pollution started to be recognized. I think you are mistaken. Coke was produced in order to smelt sulphur-free iron long before coal-smoke pollution was recognised as a major problem. SignatureFrances Kemmish Production Manager East Coast Youth Ballet www.byramartscenter.com >I meant to say that I believe coke was first made as a by-product of the >process whereby town gas and other petrochemicals were manufactured from >coal, and only later came to be regarded as a major product in its own >right when the problems of coal-smoke pollution started to be recognized. Coke began to be used on a fairly large scale for iron-smelting after the work of Abraham Darby in 1709 - see http://www.cottontimes.co.uk/darbyo.htm That was at least eighty years before coal-gas lighting systems. So it was the gas which was originally the by-product of coke manufacture, no the other way round. SignatureDon Aitken Mail to the addresses given in the headers is no longer being read. To mail me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com". > Coke began to be used on a fairly large scale for iron-smelting after > the work of Abraham Darby in 1709 - see > http://www.cottontimes.co.uk/darbyo.htm Deep down, somewhere, I think knew some of that. I had forgotten Darby's work was so early, though (and Bessemer's too). > So it was the gas which was originally the by-product of coke > manufacture, no the other way round. It was indeed. Thank you (and Frances Kemmish) for correcting me. Cheers, Daniel. >> >No, town gas *means* coal gas. The gas we pipe into towns isn't town >> >gas any more, now that we use natural gas instead. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >That's only true for certain selective values of "we". The gas industry >uses "town gas" very specifically to mean "coal gas". I was thinking of we, the pubic. [I think he means public. Ed.} >I would say "piped gas" or "bottled gas" to distinguish between piped >natural gas and bottled LPG used as domestic fuels (but that's partly [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >coal, and only later came to be regarded as a major product in its own >right when the problems of coal-smoke pollution started to be recognized. That's true. The guvmint published its first Clean Air Act in 1956 http://www.doc.mmu.ac.uk/aric/eae/Air_Quality/Older/Clean_Air_Acts.html and coke started to replace coal in the nation's fireplaces probably from that time. During the war, someone decided to try to create artificial 'coal' by bonding coal dust with some other substance to make briquettes that could replace coal. One attempt was called "Suncoal" and the huge, derelict buildings that were a sign of its failure were still in place near the house in which I was born until the 1960s. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England > That's true. The guvmint published its first Clean Air Act in 1956 > http://www.doc.mmu.ac.uk/aric/eae/Air_Quality/Older/Clean_Air_Acts.html > and coke started to replace coal in the nation's fireplaces probably from > that time. Can you burn coke in a fireplace? During the war, someone decided to try to create artificial > 'coal' by bonding coal dust with some other substance to make briquettes > that could replace coal. One attempt was called "Suncoal" and the huge, > derelict buildings that were a sign of its failure were still in place near > the house in which I was born until the 1960s. There was a briquette factory in Chesterfield that we used to drive past all the time. It stank horribly, and I think it's gone now. There is plenty of manufactured solid fuel produced from coal, these days, even so. http://www.solidfuel.co.uk/frame/main.html SignatureFrances Kemmish Production Manager East Coast Youth Ballet www.byramartscenter.com >> That's true. The guvmint published its first Clean Air Act in 1956 >> http://www.doc.mmu.ac.uk/aric/eae/Air_Quality/Older/Clean_Air_Acts.html >> and coke started to replace coal in the nation's fireplaces probably from >> that time. > >Can you burn coke in a fireplace? I've seen it done long ago, but it takes a gas poker to get it burning. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England >>>That's true. The guvmint published its first Clean Air Act in 1956 >>>http://www.doc.mmu.ac.uk/aric/eae/Air_Quality/Older/Clean_Air_Acts.html [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I've seen it done long ago, but it takes a gas poker to get it burning. I've never seen it done, and I wonder how safe it would be. Isn't it like burning charcoal indoors, with a danger of carbon monoxide poisoning? SignatureFrances Kemmish Production Manager East Coast Youth Ballet www.byramartscenter.com >>>>That's true. The guvmint published its first Clean Air Act in 1956 >>>>http://www.doc.mmu.ac.uk/aric/eae/Air_Quality/Older/Clean_Air_Acts.html [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >I've never seen it done, and I wonder how safe it would be. Isn't it >like burning charcoal indoors, with a danger of carbon monoxide poisoning? Probably, but this was back in the late 1950s, when houses were not exactly airtight, and fireplaces designed for coal fires sucked air (and most of the heat) up the chimney. I haven't seen an open fire that uses anything other than wood in years, but I've noticed that the supermarket sells some sort of briquettes. I'm thinking of removing my gas fire and re-establishing an open fire, but not yet. (This week we are expecting snow.) Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England >>>>>That's true. The guvmint published its first Clean Air Act in 1956 >>>>>http://www.doc.mmu.ac.uk/aric/eae/Air_Quality/Older/Clean_Air_Acts.html [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > re-establishing an open fire, but not yet. (This week we are expecting > snow.) Back in the 50s, we had a special fireplace (Raeburn?) that would, somewhat reluctantly, burn coke. SignatureRob Bannister >Probably, but this was back in the late 1950s, when houses were not exactly >airtight, and fireplaces designed for coal fires sucked air (and most of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >re-establishing an open fire, but not yet. (This week we are expecting >snow.) We use an artificial log called "Duraflame" that is made of sawdust and wax according to the package. One match lights it, and it burns for hours. I used to be too snobbish to use these and insisted on starting real fires and using real logs. We have chilly evenings here, though, and it's too expensive to turn up the furnace and heat the whole lower floor when we're in one or two areas of the downstairs. I notice that package of the artificial fiire log cautions me that the contents can pose a risk of fire. >>>> That's true. The guvmint published its first Clean Air Act in 1956 >>>> http://www.doc.mmu.ac.uk/aric/eae/Air_Quality/Older/Clean_Air_Acts.html [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > like burning charcoal indoors, with a danger of carbon monoxide > poisoning? Carbon monoxide forms when there's incomplete combustion of any hydrocarbon material, so the danger is there even with a standard wood fire. SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) www.geocities.com/opus731/ >>> >No, town gas *means* coal gas. The gas we pipe into towns isn't town >>> >gas any more, now that we use natural gas instead. [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] >derelict buildings that were a sign of its failure were still in place near >the house in which I was born until the 1960s. I used to make artificial coal brickettes by mixing 1 part of cement and 10 parts of coal dust. Just to use the stuff at the bottom of the bunker. Mike SignatureM.J.Powell > > In the US, the fuel kerosene, or coal gas*, never bore the name > > paraffin, as far as I know. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > contains virtually no carbon monoxide, and so is not poisonous, and so is > usually not "scented". Thanks for a good lesson, Daniel. I should have said "coal oil" as is shown in an excerpt from this site: http://www.ku.edu/carrie/archives/kansas-l/2003/03/msg00044.html "The gas was not natural gas, however, and the kerosene was not derived from oil. In Kansas, one often enough hears "coal oil" used instead of "kerosene," and some of the older members may remember the days when cities had great drum-like reservoirs to hold the coal-gas that was a byproduct of their coal-fired power plants or coke production." > "Cola gas" OTOH, if not a typo for "coal gas", is something else entirely. Are you referring to the lovely Coke backdraft through the nose, while swallowing a burp? >"The gas was not natural gas, however, and the kerosene was not >derived from oil. In Kansas, one often enough hears "coal oil" >used instead of "kerosene," and some of the older members may >remember the days when cities had great drum-like reservoirs to >hold the coal-gas that was a byproduct of their coal-fired power >plants or coke production." Those reservoirs are called 'gasometers' in England, and there are still one or two that have not been dismantled. A famous one which was/is at The Oval cricket ground is towards the bottom of http://www.sportstaronnet.com/tss2538/25380430.htm Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England >>"The gas was not natural gas, however, and the kerosene was not >>derived from oil. In Kansas, one often enough hears "coal oil" [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Oval cricket ground is towards the bottom of >http://www.sportstaronnet.com/tss2538/25380430.htm I seem to recall that in England (and the rest of Britain and Ireland) coal-gas was the primary product of municipal "gasworks", with coke being a valuable byproduct. SignaturePeter Duncanson UK (posting from a.e.u) > Those reservoirs are called 'gasometers' in England, and there are still > one or two that have not been dismantled. I stumbled across this site http://www.barrygray.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Tutoring/NatGas.html which has a few good pictures of typical gas holders (gasometers, hydrometers, as you will) as well as some informative text. Cheers, Daniel. > > Those reservoirs are called 'gasometers' in England, and there are still > > one or two that have not been dismantled. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > few good pictures of typical gas holders (gasometers, hydrometers, as you > will) as well as some informative text. Thanks for the page, Daniel, as well as the reply about coal oil. In the town next to ours, along the waterfront, there was just such a large tank, which I think we simply referred to as a "gas collector". The waterfront was at a convergence of a smaller river with the Mississippi, so there was ample room for the coal yards there, (the coal having been shipped up the river on large barges, or tows). That gas collector was an ugly black, but I don't know if it was colored by the coal being processed or if it was originally painted that way. I think it was one of the "column" types. The collector may have been floating on a pool of water let in from the river, but we never got close enough to observe. > I should have said "coal oil" as is shown in an excerpt from this site: > > http://www.ku.edu/carrie/archives/kansas-l/2003/03/msg00044.html Oh, "coal oil", yes, it didn't occur to me that that's what you meant. Coal oil is really (speaking as a sometime chemist) not so different from "petroleum" (rock oil), except that the amount of elemental carbon it contains stops it being a liquid (leave it in the ground for another few hundred million years and it may separate out of its own accord). While the gas you get by heating coal doesn't have the same composition as the gas that collects naturally above petroleum in the ground, the kerosene you make from coal is pretty much the same as the kerosene you make from oil, and ultimately has the same origin. > > "Cola gas" OTOH, if not a typo for "coal gas", is something else > > entirely. > > Are you referring to the lovely Coke backdraft through the nose, while > swallowing a burp? Er (yuk!) not specifically, no. I was referring to the fact that my fingers mistyped cola for coal twice while I was composing my previous post (and they did so again, just now, while I typed my reply to Robin). When it comes to sticky, fizzy, beverages I'm more an Irn Bru drinker. myself. Cheers, Daniel. > Natural gas is gas that is found naturally in the ground, usually > above oil; it isn't the same as coal gas at all. Coal gas is [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > virtually no carbon monoxide, and so is not poisonous, and so is > usually not "scented". Natural gas in the US is always odorized, as far as I know -- not because it's poisonous, but because it's explosive. The odorants used are methyl or ethyl mercaptan, sulfur compounds related to skunk stink. The same odorants are used in liquefied fuel gases, such as propane or LPG. SignatureRay Heindl (remove the Xs to reply) >>In the US, the fuel kerosene, or coal gas*, never bore the name >>paraffin, as far as I know. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Natural gas is gas that is found naturally in the ground, usually above > oil; it isn't the same as coal gas at all. I'm glad you reminded us of the difference. Most of us oldies remember when our gas stoves had to be converted to use natural gas when it replaced coal gas. When was that? The 60s? SignatureRob Bannister Robert Bannister spake thus: > I'm glad you reminded us of the difference. Most of us oldies remember > when our gas stoves had to be converted to use natural gas when it > replaced coal gas. When was that? The 60s? It varied by region - it was the late 60s where I lived. I took the metal tag from the cooker after conversion and stuck it in my bassoon case. It is there to this day; it reads "Converted for use on natural gas". SignatureDavid ===== > Natural gas is gas that is found naturally in the ground, usually above > oil; it isn't the same as coal gas at all. Coal gas is mostly hydrogen but [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > contains virtually no carbon monoxide, and so is not poisonous, and so is > usually not "scented". Our natural gas is definitely scented: while I suppose methane isn't particularly toxic, a leak could cause an explosion so it's a good idea for it to be made easily detectable. While I'm not sure what the sickly sulphurous-smelling additive is that's used here (Alberta, Canada), I think it's a some sort of thiol (mercaptan). Although the 'formal' IUPAC name for C_2_H_4_ is indeed "ethene", the compound is still best known as "ethylene" in common parlance and in the industries that deal with it. SignatureOdysseus > Our natural gas is definitely scented: while I suppose methane isn't > particularly toxic, a leak could cause an explosion so it's a good > idea for it to be made easily detectable. Thinking again about this, I think I may be turning the story inside out in my head. Coal gas typically contains enough sulphur compounds to smell bad without adding anything to it ... so maybe it *is* natural gas that has the added scent. Perusing Google confirms that thiols are added to natural gas as odorifers in the US (and New Zealand, and other places) but Britsh natural gas doesn't smell of thiols (or of anything, much) to me (I've just spent a frustrating few minutes trying to get my cooker hob to open the gas valve so that I could smell the gas without automatically lighting it - and nearly got a singed eyebrow for my trouble). It certainly doesn't stink the way the town gas supply used to, 30-40 years ago. IIRC methane is less prone than hydrogen/coal gas to form explosive mixtures in air, and also ignites less easily -- so the explosion risk is less than with town gas (though not entirely removed). I'm a bit surprised that anyone would deliberately add a sulphur compound to a fuel (so inevitably making sulphuric acid one of the combustion products) ... but I suppose the amount needed of such a strong-smelling compond as a thiol is so small that it can be overlooked (at least, compared with the amount of sulphur in coal gas). This site http://www.ngc.co.nz/article/articleview/285/1/25/ says that 18,000 litres of odourant (I think I'd have spelt that "odorant") - a "mixture of sulphide and mercaptan" - is used every 15 months in New Zealand alone. That's quite a lot of sulphur to be chucking into the air for no better reason than to make the gas smell, but it pales into insignificance beside some of the other things we do daily to destroy our environment. > Although the 'formal' IUPAC name for C_2_H_4_ is indeed "ethene", the > compound is still best known as "ethylene" in common parlance and in > the industries that deal with it. Indeed: the 'official' stance is (and was when I was at school) that the stuff is called ethene and that ethylene is an obsolete 'trivial' name ... but it's soo hard to shake off a trivial name! I'll try to remember to report here if/when I hear of anyone using oxy-ethyne cutting gear! Cheers, Daniel. > IIRC methane is less prone than hydrogen/coal gas to form > explosive mixtures in air, and also ignites less easily -- so the > explosion risk is less than with town gas (though not entirely > removed). Enough gas explosions occur that the risk must be substantial, even with the odorant added. The local fire department takes gas leaks *very* seriously. A neighbor of mine once called to report that he smelled gasoline outside his house. In a few minutes the street was gridlocked with fire trucks. It turned out they interpreted his report to mean that the smelled (natural) gas *inside* his house. Much hilarity ensued. It turned out that someone had been using gasoline to kill weeds. > I'm a bit surprised that anyone would deliberately add a sulphur > compound to a fuel (so inevitably making sulphuric acid one of the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > smell, but it pales into insignificance beside some of the other > things we do daily to destroy our environment. On the other hand, they add only 17 microliters of odorant per cubic meter of gas, or 21 parts per billion, so it's a negligible amount. And if it were your house that was prevented from going "boom" you mightn't think it such a trivial reason. SignatureRay Heindl (remove the Xs to reply) >>IIRC methane is less prone than hydrogen/coal gas to form >>explosive mixtures in air, and also ignites less easily -- so the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Enough gas explosions occur that the risk must be substantial, even > with the odorant added. Apparently the standard method employed for tracing small gas leaks was (is?) striking a match. The gas-inspector father of a friend of mine (back in 60s London) did this and blew out the side of a house. Luckily, no-one was seriously injured. SignatureRob Bannister > Apparently the standard method employed for tracing small gas leaks was > (is?) striking a match. Standard fare in carry-on films, maybe. Definitely NOT recommended in real life. Gas inspectors have little meter thingies, these days, that can measure tiny concentrations of gas in air. Cheers, Daniel. >>Apparently the standard method employed for tracing small gas leaks was >>(is?) striking a match. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Gas inspectors have little meter thingies, these days, that can measure > tiny concentrations of gas in air. I was fairly amazed when I was told the story, but I did say it was 60s England. SignatureRob Bannister Robert Bannister" <robban@it.net.au> wrote... > >>Apparently the standard method employed for tracing small gas leaks > >>was (is?) striking a match. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > I was fairly amazed when I was told the story, but I did say it was > 60s England. And here's a report from a couple of days ago: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3417401.stm Matti << [Matti Lamprhey] And here's a report from a couple of days ago: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3417401.stm [end quote] >> From that article an interesting shorian difference: "One tradesman used a lighter to search for a gas leak and a plumber appeared to urinate in a water tank. Ten traders now face criminal prosecution as a result of the investigation." From a US perspective, "tradesman" is familiar, although I do not think any region here uses it in speech. However, "trader" is completely foreign and would be misunderstood. It would mean someone who buys or sells phantom gold or pork bellys; or real baseball cards. -- --------------------------------------------- Richard Maurer To reply, remove half Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ><< [Matti Lamprhey] >And here's a report from a couple of days ago: [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >It would mean someone who buys or sells phantom gold or pork bellys; >or real baseball cards. It is not normal BrE usage either. I'm sure its use here is explained by the fact that those bringing the prosecutions are "Trading Standards Officers". They probably refer to all those they investigate as "traders" - which is no good reason for anybody else doing the same. SignatureDon Aitken Mail to the addresses given in the headers is no longer being read. To mail me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com". ><< [Matti Lamprhey] >And here's a report from a couple of days ago: [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >It would mean someone who buys or sells phantom gold or pork bellys; >or real baseball cards. And here it refers to people who engage in trade - buying and selling - rather than manufacturing. Another word for it is "merchant", but a merchant ususally has large warehouses, while a trader simply has "stock-in-trade". A tradesman, of course, is something quite different - someone with a marketable skill, who has leared "a trade" (note the article). A tradesman practises a trade. A trader trades. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > ><< [Matti Lamprhey] > >And here's a report from a couple of days ago: [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > A tradesman practises a trade. > A trader trades. . . . a merchant USUALLY has . . . . . . who has LEARNED "a trade" . . . Btw, the think those explanations could be confusing to some, because a 'trader' also refers to a ship employed in trade, as is a merchant ship or merchantman. >> Apparently the standard method employed for tracing small gas leaks was >> (is?) striking a match. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Gas inspectors have little meter thingies, these days, that can measure >tiny concentrations of gas in air. I have a little battery-operated thingy mounted in my kitchen that can measure minute amounts of carbon monoxide in the air and set off a warning. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England > > This site http://www.ngc.co.nz/article/articleview/285/1/25/ says > > that 18,000 litres of odourant (I think I'd have spelt that [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > On the other hand, they add only 17 microliters of odorant per cubic > meter of gas, or 21 parts per billion, so it's a negligible amount. I /did/ say it probably wasn't a significant amount to pollution, overall ... but 18,000 litres of something that must be about half sulphur by weight (I don't know what the "sulphide" they use is, but both ethyl and methyl mercaptans are more than 50% sulphur by weight) must be about ten tons of sulphur. It may be an insignificant proportion - and it's a surprisingly small amount, all in all (which illustrates nicely just how smelly thiols really are) - but 8 tons a year isn't a negligible amount on an absolute scale. > And if it were your house that was prevented from going "boom" you > mightn't think it such a trivial reason. Well, as the gas round here doesn't seem to smell much I suppose my house isn't protected from going boom ... so maybe I'm entitled to resent the price that's paid so that other people's may be. You're more likely to get a gas explosion from LPG because it's heavier than air and collects in basements (and the bilges of boats). Natural gas is lighter than air (as is town gas) and won't form an explosive mixture in a properly ventilated space. Cheers, Daniel. > I'll try to remember to report here if/when I hear of anyone using > oxy-ethyne cutting gear! Or putting 1,2-ethanediol in a car radiator, or sterilizing a cut with 2-propanol, or ... SignatureOdysseus ... > Natural gas is gas that is found naturally in the ground, usually above > oil; it isn't the same as coal gas at all. Coal gas is mostly hydrogen but [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > contains virtually no carbon monoxide, and so is not poisonous, and so is > usually not "scented". Natural gas is non-poisonous, but it's also a fire hazard, so it is scented--with "T-butyl mercaptan blends" according to <http://reference.allrefer.com/encyclopedia/M/mercapta.html>. And while I'm there, according to <http://reference.allrefer.com/encyclopedia/E/ethylene.html> ethene has a "faint smell", so I wonder whether it really is what was added to town gas. Maybe ethyl mercaptan, a.k.a. ethanethiol? SignatureJerry Friedman >>tony_cooper213@mungedyahoo.com spake thus: >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > "Paraffin" in the UK is what we call kerosene in the US. I would advise > not pouring kerosene over jam. I don't even remember paraffin wax on preserves. The home-made jams and so on that we were given only had a citcle of waxed or greaseproof paper directly on top of the jam, and then a circle of cellophane held over the jar with an elastic band. The first time I saw jam with wax on top was in Connecticut. SignatureFrances Kemmish Production Manager East Coast Youth Ballet www.byramartscenter.com >In the US, paraffin is wax, synthetic wax, as for candles. You buy a box >of the stuff, solid. You melt a chunk of it carefully, as they warned us [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >If you used a jar with a narrower mouth, you were in trouble, because >you couldn't get the solid chunk of wax past the opening. What woman would ever use such a jar? Canning was a mother-to-daughter learned lore with practicalities part of the lesson plan. >tony_cooper213@mungedyahoo.com spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >would be rather spoilt. Liquid paraffin had a medical use of some >sort, like cod liver oil, but I have no idea what it was made of. Since this was a topic of discussion just a few weeks ago, I didn't think it was necessary to flag it. tony_cooper213@mungedyahoo.com spake thus: > >tony_cooper213@mungedyahoo.com spake thus: > > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Since this was a topic of discussion just a few weeks ago, I didn't > think it was necessary to flag it. We discussed paraffin/kerosene, but I don't remember considering the medicinal use of "liquid paraffin". SignatureDavid ===== >>Ray Heindl writes > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > All true, but the preserving grew to be limited in time once the container > was opened. Still does. Also, in olden days, when houses were cut off for 3 months at a time with snow, and when fruit was only available in season, preserves and pickles were vitally important and had to be done right. Nowadays, most things are available all the year round, but people still like the taste of preserves and pickles. The difference is you can put in the fridge, so when, for example, you make a pickle, you no longer need to use so much salt. I've never had a commercially produced jam go off - well, I've had some go mouldy - but strange things have happened with home-made preserves when I kept them too long. SignatureRob Bannister >>>OK -- I can take this no longer -- isn't "castor" only an >>>alternate (secondary) spelling for "caster" in the UK and thus [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > This looks like a pondian difference. I would never use "castor" in > the US, except when referring to the oil. And beavers and a Roman god. SignatureRob Bannister >> This looks like a pondian difference. I would never use "castor" >> in the US, except when referring to the oil. >> > And beavers and a Roman god. True, but I've never used "castor" (or "caster") to refer to beavers, and probably never will. The Roman god one is more likely, though. SignatureRay Heindl (remove the Xs to reply) > > This looks like a pondian difference. I would never use "castor" > > in the US, except when referring to the oil. > > And beavers and a Roman god. And a Stone. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Well, if you can't believe what you 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |read in a comic book, what can you Palo Alto, CA 94304 |believe?! | Bullwinkle J. Moose kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > > > This looks like a pondian difference. I would never use "castor" > > > in the US, except when referring to the oil. > > > > And beavers and a Roman god. > > And a Stone. What, as in the Australian expression "castor furs tone"? Mike. > > Robert Bannister <robban@it.net.au> writes: > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > > What, as in the Australian expression "castor furs tone"? http://tinyurl.com/2pkdc <URL:http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/ 034532451X/qid=1073944820/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/ 102-5040696-2031363?v=glance&s=books> Originally published in 1952, when Mick Jagger was nine years old. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |I believe there are more instances 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |of the abridgment of the freedom of Palo Alto, CA 94304 |the people by gradual and silent |encroachments of those in power kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |than by violent and sudden (650)857-7572 |usurpations. | James Madison http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >>> OK -- I can take this no longer -- isn't "castor" only an >>> alternate (secondary) spelling for "caster" in the UK and thus [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > This looks like a pondian difference. I would never use "castor" in > the US, except when referring to the oil. Not necessarily. I use "castor" for the wheelies. But I first encountered the word in the word of an author of whose pondiality I'm uncertain, so that doesn't prove anything. -Aaron J. Dinkin Dr. Whom > You should have googled "flat dolly". You definitely would not get > Dolly Parton. > The one I have in the garage is wooden with carpeted cross pieces > and swiveling castors on the corners, each of which vies to be the > leader. It takes a great deal of talent to get it to roll straight > through narrow hallways without hitting the walls. I'd call that a "furniture mover's dolly" (or maybe "movers'") if I wanted to distinguish it from a hand truck. I presume that all four wheels caster to allow the mover to rotate it in place before removing the load from it. Or maybe they were designed by the painters' union to encourage people to scrape up their walls. SignatureRay Heindl (remove the Xs to reply) > I presume that all four wheels caster ... Now, there's a verbing I haven't seen before! I think I'd have written "all four wheel swivel" -- though probably "all four wheel cast" would do the job. Cheers, Daniel. >> I presume that all four wheels caster ... > >Now, there's a verbing I haven't seen before! The word 'castering' is certainly used to describe the motion of a caster. SignaturePeter Duncanson UK (posting from a.e.u) >>> I presume that all four wheels caster ... >> >>Now, there's a verbing I haven't seen before! > >The word 'castering' is certainly used to describe the motion of a caster. Is a person that sells casters called a "castermonger"? >>>> I presume that all four wheels caster ... >>> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Is a person that sells casters called a "castermonger"? That would be logical. While reading your question I had the alarming thought that there might be such an phenomenon as the costermongers' apostrophe - rivalling the greengrocers' apostrophe. SignaturePeter Duncanson UK (posting from a.e.u) >> I presume that all four wheels caster ... > > Now, there's a verbing I haven't seen before! I think I'd have > written "all four wheel swivel" -- though probably "all four wheel > cast" would do the job. It's not a new one -- it's listed in the RHUD, though with no indication of how old it is. SignatureRay Heindl (remove the Xs to reply) > I grew up calling the vertical "hand truck" a "dolly," too, until I was > set straight some time later, probably in Boston. I'm from Boston and wouldn't call a vertical hand truck a dolly, but I have heard it so called in Boston. -Aaron J. Dinkin Dr. Whom > >[...] > >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > The ones I recall were wooden - but that was a few decades ago. That's right: the one we had at school was made of wood, too. Mine has the wheels nearer the corners, and has a T-bar handle as long as the trolley itself. Mike. > I also have -- I must confess I sort-of stole it -- a solid > four-wheeled steel thing with castors at one end which can take a > piano: when he was nine, my son was able to move a full freezer from > one end of the house to the other on it. I don't know the proper name > for this hot property. Something matching this description arrived with an Indesit washing machine which we bought in the late 70s. Bob Martin >> I also have -- I must confess I sort-of stole it -- a solid >> four-wheeled steel thing with castors at one end which can take a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Something matching this description arrived with an Indesit > washing machine which we bought in the late 70s. The last washing machine I saw delivered arrived on a hand truck equipped with little caterpillar treads along the back, to allow it to negotiate stairs without banging down on each step. Does anyone know if such a thing has a name other than "hand truck"? SignatureRay Heindl (remove the Xs to reply) >>> I also have -- I must confess I sort-of stole it -- a solid >>> four-wheeled steel thing with castors at one end which can take a [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >negotiate stairs without banging down on each step. Does anyone know >if such a thing has a name other than "hand truck"? Looking at some UK websites it seems that hand trucks designed for stair climbing are called 'stairclimber trucks'. The most common type appears to be not the caterpillar version but one in which each of the two wheels is replaced by three wheels in a star formation. http://www.parrs.co.uk/images/products/H015_xl.jpg One supplier describes trucks with caterpillar tracks as 'caterpillar trucks'. That could be very confusing! http://www.tenpoint.co.uk/acatalog/Caterpillar_Truck.html SignaturePeter Duncanson UK (posting from a.e.u) > >>> I also have -- I must confess I sort-of stole it -- a solid > >>> four-wheeled steel thing with castors at one end which can take a [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > trucks'. That could be very confusing! > http://www.tenpoint.co.uk/acatalog/Caterpillar_Truck.html In Canada it's just a caterpillar dolly, as in http://www.yeats.net/dolly.html >> >The last washing machine I saw delivered arrived on a hand truck >> >equipped with little caterpillar treads along the back, to allow [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> wheels in a star formation. >> http://www.parrs.co.uk/images/products/H015_xl.jpg Interesting. I think I've seen a motorized wheelchair with triple wheels like that, to enable it to climb stairs, but never a hand truck. >> One supplier describes trucks with caterpillar tracks as >> 'caterpillar trucks'. That could be very confusing! >> http://www.tenpoint.co.uk/acatalog/Caterpillar_Truck.html It would be even more confusing if they were called "caterpillar bulldozers", I guess. > In Canada it's just a caterpillar dolly, as in > http://www.yeats.net/dolly.html That sounds like a good name to me. I wonder if "appliance dolly" is the USan term, or if that would include similar hand trucks without the caterpillar feature. That appears to be Yeats's general term for them. SignatureRay Heindl (remove the Xs to reply) > There is the Hand Truck - UK and US (also Porter's Truck in BrE) > For example: > http://www.parrs.co.uk/images/products/H029_xl.jpg Some US librarians refer to a book cart as a "truck" (or "book truck"): http://www.schooloutfitters.com/catalog/product_info/products_id/PRO99 -Aaron J. Dinkin Dr. Whom > Some US librarians refer to a book cart as a "truck" (or "book truck"): > > http://www.schooloutfitters.com/catalog/product_info/products_id/PRO99 Interesting. Those are quite clearly neither carts nor trucks but "trollies". <smile> Cheers, Daniel. >> Some US librarians refer to a book cart as a "truck" (or "book truck"): >> >> http://www.schooloutfitters.com/catalog/product_info/products_id/PRO99 > > Interesting. Those are quite clearly neither carts nor trucks but > "trollies". <smile> Not carts, eh? You must have a much more restrictive definition of "cart" than I do: to me, a cart is any wheeled conveyance (other than a wheelbarrow) that gets loaded up with cargo of some sort and then pushed or pulled to its destination. On the other hand, I have a more restrictive definition of "trolley", which I use only to refer to a particular kind of light rail vehicle. -Aaron J. Dinkin Dr. Whom > > Interesting. Those are quite clearly neither carts nor trucks but > > "trollies". <smile> > > Not carts, eh? Oh, please! Note the <smile>. I'm surprised you're picking me up on "cart" - I'd have thought that cries of "oh yes they are trucks" were more likely. > You must have a much more restrictive definition of "cart" > than I do: to me, a cart is any wheeled conveyance (other than a > wheelbarrow) that gets loaded up with cargo of some sort and then > pushed or pulled to its destination. I think this may be a pondian thing. I'm familiar with the "hand cart" use that you outline, but I've seldom heard it used. "Cart" on it's own conjures up "horse and cart" meanings, for me; and of course it's used in composites such as "dustcart" (which you probably call a "garbage truck"?) "Barrow", on the other hand, would include any hand-propelled wheeled vehicle - such as a wheelbarrow (with one wheel) or a costermonger's or market trader's barrow (which might have two or even four wheels). > On the other hand, I have a more restrictive definition of "trolley", > which I use only to refer to a particular kind of light rail vehicle. Well, I meant trolley in the sense of "tea-trolley", which is exactly what the - er - items illustrated on that webpage look like to me (apart from the garish colours - I'll have mine in natural wood, please). The word "trolley" is much richer than that, though. NSOED: : trolley n. & v. Also trolly. E19. : [Of dial. origin, prob. f. TROLL v. & n.2] [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] : trolley. M20. : ... [examples & specific cases snipped] So, a "trolley" can be a "cart" and can be a "barrow" and can be a "truck" ... but the things in that picture are things *I* consider better-described by the word "trollies" than any of the others. (Quite seriously, despite the <smile>.) Cheers, Daniel. > Not much related to lorries but non sequiturs are much a way of life > here, aren't they? Only among the blokes, because we don't ask for directions. The wimmin can follow anything anywhere. -- John Dean Oxford De-frag to reply In alt.english.usage on Mon, 05 Jan 2004 06:53:44 -0500 MC <copeSP@AMZAPca.inter.net> posted: >I just remembered another use of "truck." > >I don't think most SUV owners call their vehicles "trucks" but people in >the motor trade in these parts (Montreal) do -- I've heard it from a >salesman in in the leasing business and from a couple of mechanics. In the US they have to be officially categorized as trucks, iirc, because that is what exempts them from gas mileage regulations. On the theory that real men who have to haul real loads can't be burdened by mileage rules or they won't have enough power to get the job done. It's so stupid. They act like the automakers got around the gas mileage rules by cleverly taking a truck and adding enough accessories that people were willing to own them in place of their cars. But they've had more than 10 years and they should have written the rules differently, so that trucks used as ttrucks would be exempt and trucks used as cars wouldn't be. Anyhow, the auto news tonight said that SUTs were going to be more available in the future. Sports Utility Trucks. And the auto companies would be pushing cars again. It sounds like maybe they changed the rule the way I want it when I wasn't looking. >I suspect it may be because under the hood and the coachwork, many of >them *are* trucks -- built up on existing truck chassis. > >I have no truck with it myself of course. s/ meirman If you are emailing me please say if you are posting the same response. Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years Indianapolis, 7 years Chicago, 6 years Brooklyn NY 12 years Baltimore 20 years |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2012 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.