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Marius Hancu - 05 Jan 2004 16:49 GMT

Hello:

Wrt the CAPITALIZED expression:
----
"Isabel certainly has devotees," said the Countess, smiling very
vividly. "I declare I don't pity her."

"It may be I can't assist her," Miss Stackpole pursued, as if it were
well not to have illusions.

"You CAN HAVE WANTED TO, at any rate; that's something. I believe
that's what you came from America for," the Countess suddenly added.

"Yes, I wanted to look after her," Henrietta said serenely.
[Henry James, Portrait of a Lady, Ch 37, p.397]
----

Not sure why this sounds unnatural to me, but it might be very well
I am wrong.

I would have said
"You could have wanted ..." (in the past)
"You may want to ..." (in the present)

Swan, Practical English Usage (p. 107), seems to agree with me:
-----
can/could have ...
We use 'can/could have + past participle' to guess or speculate
about what has happened, whethere things (have) happened, etc.
'Can' is only used in questions and negative sentences, or with
'limiting' words like 'only, hardly or never'. In other cases we use
could/may/might.
-----

Thank you,
Marius Hancu

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Peter Duncanson - 05 Jan 2004 17:04 GMT

>Hello:
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>Not sure why this sounds unnatural to me, but it might be very well
>I am wrong.

It sounds unnatural to me also. However, this is a work of literature in
which conventional rules may be deviated from for effect.

I see the deliberate contrasting of "can't" and "can" in

"It may be I can't assist her,"
and
"You can have wanted to,"

>I would have said
>"You could have wanted ..." (in the past)
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>Thank you,
>Marius Hancu

Signature

Peter Duncanson
UK
(posting from a.e.u)

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meirman - 05 Jan 2004 18:40 GMT

In alt.english.usage on Mon, 05 Jan 2004 11:49:44 -0500 Marius Hancu
<DO_NOT_USE@videotron.ca> posted:

>Hello:
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>"You CAN HAVE WANTED TO, at any rate; that's something. I believe
>that's what you came from America for," the Countess suddenly added.

It's probably inelegant, but I might say "You can't have wanted to".
But for some reason with out the n't, it doesn't sound right to me
either.

Still, it must mean the opposite from my sentence.

>"Yes, I wanted to look after her," Henrietta said serenely.
>[Henry James, Portrait of a Lady, Ch 37, p.397]

I think this is the third question about the syntax of this period. I
don't think it is worth much effort to learn in detail about syntax
which may not be used anymore. You only say it sounds unnnatural, not
that you don't get the gist of this. I would do what I actually do,
slide past areas like this undertanding usually what is meant, but not
worrying about why he phrased it in a certain way.

(Are there still people in England named Miss Stackpole?)

>Not sure why this sounds unnatural to me, but it might be very well
>I am wrong.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>Thank you,
>Marius Hancu

s/ meirman If you are emailing me please
say if you are posting the same response.

Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years
Indianapolis, 7 years
Chicago, 6 years
Brooklyn NY 12 years
Baltimore 20 years

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mUs1Ka - 05 Jan 2004 19:10 GMT

> (Are there still people in England named Miss Stackpole?)

No, they're all married now.
m.

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Marius Hancu - 06 Jan 2004 01:30 GMT

> >"It may be I can't assist her," Miss Stackpole pursued, as if it were
> >well not to have illusions.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Still, it must mean the opposite from my sentence.

Thanks.

> I think this is the third question about the syntax of this period. I
> don't think it is worth much effort to learn in detail about syntax
> which may not be used anymore. You only say it sounds unnnatural, not
> that you don't get the gist of this. I would do what I actually do,
> slide past areas like this undertanding usually what is meant, but not
> worrying about why he phrased it in a certain way.

I don't have, I think, any problems understanding the flow of this great
novel, but part
of the fun for me is discovering such relics and see if any of them
is/are still in use:-)))

Marius Hancu

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John Dean - 05 Jan 2004 19:15 GMT

> Hello:
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Not sure why this sounds unnatural to me, but it might be very well
> I am wrong.

It's fine. An elegant, if literary, turn of phrase. Imagine 'have wanted to'
as a state of existence. The Countess is describing Miss Stackpole's future
state. Miss S. can't assist Isabel. But she can be in a position of knowing
that she wanted to - that she was willing to do what she could.
--
John Dean
Oxford
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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2004

You can have wanted to ...