Future passive imperfect

Thread view:

Enable EMail Alerts

Start New Thread

Thread rating:

Danny Kodicek - 07 Jan 2004 14:59 GMT

Some time ago, while waiting for an endlessly delayed train, I thought to
myself 'This train will have been being waited for for two hours'. I then
realised I had unintentionally used the future passive imperfect in a
sentence. Any thoughts about whether it's grammatically correct? If it helps
to make it clearer, although it sounds a bit more stilted (if that's
possible), substitute 'awaited' for 'waited for'.

Any other examples of ridiculously obscure tenses used in genuine contexts?
I'm reminded of Graham Chapman talking about the declination of 'to
sheep-worry' and coming up with the future passive perfect 'I am about to
have been sheep-worried' - although 'I will have been sheep-worried' is just
the same but sounds less silly. Somewhat.

Danny

--
--------

Join the quest through Time and Space
Register free at http://www.timehunt.com

Reply to this Message

John Dean - 07 Jan 2004 16:14 GMT

> Any other examples of ridiculously obscure tenses used in genuine
> contexts? I'm reminded of Graham Chapman talking about the
> declination of 'to sheep-worry' and coming up with the future passive
> perfect 'I am about to have been sheep-worried' - although 'I will
> have been sheep-worried' is just the same but sounds less silly.
> Somewhat.

There's a verb now current amongst Social Workers & the Penal Community - to
self-harm. New inmates at HMP are asked 'Do you self-harm? have you ever
self-harmed' and they seem to understand what is asked. So a prisoner
sitting in their flowery dell with a rusty nail and a rolled up sleeve might
well say 'I am about to be self-harmed'.
--
John Dean
Oxford
De-frag to reply

Reply to this Message

Danny Kodicek - 07 Jan 2004 16:41 GMT

> > Any other examples of ridiculously obscure tenses used in genuine
> > contexts? I'm reminded of Graham Chapman talking about the
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> sitting in their flowery dell with a rusty nail and a rolled up sleeve might
> well say 'I am about to be self-harmed'.

Are we seeing the birth of a new reflexive verb form in English? ;)

Danny

Reply to this Message

Larry Trask - 07 Jan 2004 19:23 GMT

> Some time ago, while waiting for an endlessly delayed train, I thought to
> myself 'This train will have been being waited for for two hours'. I then
> realised I had unintentionally used the future passive imperfect in a
> sentence. Any thoughts about whether it's grammatically correct? If it helps
> to make it clearer, although it sounds a bit more stilted (if that's
> possible), substitute 'awaited' for 'waited for'.

According to the rules for constructing English verbal sequences, this
example is fine. I find it fine.

However, terminology. This is an example of the perfect progressive
passive. There is no "imperfect" in English.

Another example, without the modal 'will':

'My house has been being painted for six weeks now.'

And one with the modal:

'By tomorrow my house will have been being painted for six weeks.'

I regard all of these as grammatical and normal, and I use them
spontaneously, as do lots of other people.

But my experience with my British students is that some of them do not
accept instances of the perfect progressive passive. A combination of
any two is fine, but putting all three together makes them bridle. I
have no idea why.

> Any other examples of ridiculously obscure tenses used in genuine contexts?
> I'm reminded of Graham Chapman talking about the declination of 'to
> sheep-worry' and coming up with the future passive perfect 'I am about to
> have been sheep-worried' - although 'I will have been sheep-worried' is just
> the same but sounds less silly. Somewhat.

In fact, these two examples have very different meanings.

Larry Trask
larryt@sussex.ac.uk

Reply to this Message

rolleston - 08 Jan 2004 00:12 GMT

> But my experience with my British students is that some of them do not
> accept instances of the perfect progressive passive. A combination of
> any two is fine, but putting all three together makes them bridle. I
> have no idea why.

Because our naturally acquired grammar doesn't fit your idealisation.
When I search for `been being' with Google, a large proportion
of the links returned are to English grammar sites. What does
that tell you?*

> 'My house has been being painted for six weeks now.'

I suspect the majority of English speakers here would
think that sentence is suspect. The `been being' bit
sounds silly, but that may just be because:

a) The two words are not frequently used together
b) They have similar sounds

It almost sounds as though said by someone with a stutter.

R.

ps

> I'm afraid I can't come up with a decent example of
> a non-restrictive relative clause in 'when'.

`I shall mention last year, when Trask talked sense.'

I know it's not a decent example. `Last year' is far too recent.

* - nothing.

Reply to this Message

Danny Kodicek - 08 Jan 2004 09:27 GMT

> > Some time ago, while waiting for an endlessly delayed train, I thought to
> > myself 'This train will have been being waited for for two hours'. I then
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> However, terminology. This is an example of the perfect progressive
> passive. There is no "imperfect" in English.

Fair enough - although as far as I can see they're the same thing, aren't
they? I'm no grammarian, my knowledge of grammar is mostly gained from
learning other languages rather than my own, but AIUI, the imperfect tense
is simply a continuous or interrupted action in the past, which seems the
same as what you're calling 'perfect progressive'. Happy to accept that this
terminology is correct, though!

> Another example, without the modal 'will':
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> any two is fine, but putting all three together makes them bridle. I
> have no idea why.

I had big arguments with people about my example, where most of them
insisted it was ungrammatical. I think it's because there is very little
difference in meaning between 'will have been being awaited for three hours'
and 'will have been awaited for three hours', although there clearly *is* a
difference, which is made much clearer in your house-painting example.

> > Any other examples of ridiculously obscure tenses used in genuine contexts?
> > I'm reminded of Graham Chapman talking about the declination of 'to
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> In fact, these two examples have very different meanings.

Sure, but they're both examples of the same tense structure - of course they
have different meanings. Is there a grammatical distinction between 'I am
about to be' and 'I will'? I'd have thought they're both simple future
tenses.

Danny

Reply to this Message

a - 08 Jan 2004 15:47 GMT

> Fair enough - although as far as I can see they're the same thing, aren't
> they? I'm no grammarian, my knowledge of grammar is mostly gained from
> learning other languages rather than my own, but AIUI, the imperfect tense
> is simply a continuous or interrupted action in the past, which seems the
> same as what you're calling 'perfect progressive'. Happy to accept that this
> terminology is correct, though!

Same here, my knowledge of grammar is pretty much through studying spanish.
In spanish I guess a perfect progressive construction would be translated as
"I have been doing something..." while imperfect might be "I was doing
something when..." (continous action) or "I used to do something" (habitual
action) - slightly different meanings I think (are these terms the same in
english grammar - I expect so???).

Reply to this Message

Daniel - 08 Jan 2004 16:40 GMT

> > Some time ago, while waiting for an endlessly delayed train, I thought to
> > myself 'This train will have been being waited for for two hours'. I then

> However, terminology. This is an example of the perfect progressive
> passive.

This is not uncontroversial. Moderns linguists are
in disagreement about these terms. `imperfect' does
not apply, though.

Daniel.

Reply to this Message

Daniel - 07 Jan 2004 21:23 GMT

> Some time ago, while waiting for an endlessly delayed train, I thought to
> myself 'This train will have been being waited for for two hours'.

Only two hours? Eternity is measure by Network Rail.

Daniel.

Reply to this Message

Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2004

Future passive imperfect