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Qs: African-American First Names like Latoya, Denzel, Condoleeza and Keisha

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Chris Tsao - 08 Jan 2004 02:44 GMT
When did African-American mothers first come up with names like Latisha,
Lakisha, Tawana (sp.?), Latoya, Jamal, Denzel and Darah? Condoleeza Rice looks
like she's in her 40's and she's one of the oldest people I know of with an
African-American first name, but I'm guessing that they go back a lot farther
than fortysomething years. Is Jemima one of them? If so, they go back a long
time. Are there any interesting aspects on this that you can disclose? Are they
a combination of both English and African names? Or did they simply take a name
like Sarah and put a "D" in front of it to make it Darah, or both? Thanks
again.
Robert Lieblich - 08 Jan 2004 03:14 GMT
> When did African-American mothers first come up with names like Latisha,
> Lakisha, Tawana (sp.?), Latoya, Jamal, Denzel and Darah?

[ ... ]

Research has been done on this question.  One useful article is on
the Web:

http://economics.uchicago.edu/download/blacknames1_applications.pdf

and a Google search for "distinctive african-american names" (be
sure to include the quotation marks) will lead you to other
published articles (but you'll nead a pretty good library to locate
them).

In view of the scholarly activity on the subject, I see no reason to
offer my own uninformed views.

Signature

Bob Lieblich
Plain old Robert

Chris Tsao - 09 Jan 2004 02:37 GMT
>Research has been done on this question.  One useful article is on
>the Web:
>
>http://economics.uchicago.edu/download/blacknames1_applications.pdf

Thank you.
meirman - 08 Jan 2004 04:26 GMT
In alt.english.usage on 08 Jan 2004 02:44:31 GMT rigida7147@aol.com
(Chris Tsao) posted:

>When did African-American mothers first come up with names like Latisha,
>Lakisha, Tawana (sp.?), Latoya, Jamal, Denzel and Darah? Condoleeza Rice looks
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>like Sarah and put a "D" in front of it to make it Darah, or both? Thanks
>again.

A. I think you might do better asking on an African-American group.
(I would call Condoleeza a "name of that sort" because I'm not sure it
is an African-American name.  In fact iirc it's not (I think it's
Anglicized French, and might have existed as a name in French or
English before she got it.), so I might just ask an open-ended
question about it, with no embedded assumptions.

B. I don't think Jemima is in the same category as the other names,
but I can't remember why, what I've heard about Jemima.  It might be
worth looking up on the web.

C. I probably first saw this style of name in the 70's, but I'm not
the first person people tell.  Of the people you name Latoya Jackson
or Denzel Washington (was he given that name at birth? I think she
was.) are probably the oldest.  Wasn't the most famous Jamal named Lew
Alcindor at birth and he renamed himself in his 20's. (If not, who am
I thinking of?)  All the other Jamals might be loosely based on him,
and on Arabs if Jamal is an Arab name.  (BTW, it's not just among
Blacks that one famous person generates a lot of babies getting the
same name.  There are loads of other examples.)

But the most interesting thing included in your question seems to be
about the coined names, no two alike if possible, I assume.  My two
door away neighbor is Shenaiya.  She's about 11.  This answer is not
well organized, but that is what I assume they didn't tell me about
when it first started. So I'd guess around the time Latoya Jackson was
born or a few years earlier, but no earlier than 1965.  This is in
many ways a guess, so if you can, let me know if I guessed right.

s/ meirman    If you are emailing me please  
say if you are posting the same response.

Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years
            Indianapolis,   7 years
            Chicago,        6 years
            Brooklyn NY    12 years
            Baltimore      20 years
Raymond S. Wise - 08 Jan 2004 05:17 GMT
> In alt.english.usage on 08 Jan 2004 02:44:31 GMT rigida7147@aol.com
> (Chris Tsao) posted:
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> but I can't remember why, what I've heard about Jemima.  It might be
> worth looking up on the web.

Jemima *is* in a different category than the other names. It was a Hebrew
name and a relic of slavery, when white owners had the right to determine
the names of their slaves, and gave them, among other sorts of names, Old
Testament and Classical names. See

http://rainbowwarrior.coa.edu/laura/move/africanamerica.htm

and

http://www.stratfordhall.org/africa.html?RESEARCH

And see the review for "Slave in a Box: The Strange Career of Aunt Jemima"
by M.M. Manring at

http://www.upress.virginia.edu/books/manring.html

Signature

Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA

E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com

Peter Duncanson - 08 Jan 2004 11:28 GMT
>B. I don't think Jemima is in the same category as the other names,
>but I can't remember why, what I've heard about Jemima.  It might be
>worth looking up on the web.

In the UK the name Jemima was in use long before there was the slightest
possibility of any African-American influence.

I have just looked in a book with lists of suggested names for children. The
book is undated but was purchased in 1936 or 1937.  Jemima is in the list of
girls' names. It is also in more recent books of names. I haven't actually
met a Jemima - ever.

Signature

Peter Duncanson
UK
(posting from a.e.u)

Dr Robin Bignall - 09 Jan 2004 00:59 GMT
>>B. I don't think Jemima is in the same category as the other names,
>>but I can't remember why, what I've heard about Jemima.  It might be
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>girls' names. It is also in more recent books of names. I haven't actually
>met a Jemima - ever.

You mean you've never seen Frederick Ashton's production of a ballet from
Beatrix Potter's tales, starring Ashton himself a Jemima Puddleduck?
See
http://www.danceview.org/archives/ashton/walker1.html
but note that the 1992 date for "bring to the stage" is not true. The
ballet, with Anthony Dowell dancing, was being staged by the Royal Ballet
at Covent Garden in the early 1960s, with Antoinette Sibley as his partner.

Signature

wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall

Quiet part of Hertfordshire
England

Peter Duncanson - 09 Jan 2004 11:37 GMT
>>>B. I don't think Jemima is in the same category as the other names,
>>>but I can't remember why, what I've heard about Jemima.  It might be
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>ballet, with Anthony Dowell dancing, was being staged by the Royal Ballet
>at Covent Garden in the early 1960s, with Antoinette Sibley as his partner.

I recall seeing pictures from such productions, but I have never met a real
Jemima.

Signature

Peter Duncanson
UK
(posting from a.e.u)

Dr Robin Bignall - 09 Jan 2004 12:23 GMT
>>You mean you've never seen Frederick Ashton's production of a ballet from
>>Beatrix Potter's tales, starring Ashton himself a Jemima Puddleduck?
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>I recall seeing pictures from such productions, but I have never met a real
>Jemima.

As a New Year present, I'll take a look for Jemimas in the online dating
services on your behalf, if you like.

Signature

wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall

Quiet part of Hertfordshire
England

Peter Duncanson - 09 Jan 2004 12:49 GMT
>>>You mean you've never seen Frederick Ashton's production of a ballet from
>>>Beatrix Potter's tales, starring Ashton himself a Jemima Puddleduck?
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>As a New Year present, I'll take a look for Jemimas in the online dating
>services on your behalf, if you like.

Than you for your exceedingly kind offer, but that will not be necessary.
Really. No. No. Please don't.

Signature

Peter Duncanson
UK
(posting from a.e.u)

meirman - 10 Jan 2004 23:39 GMT
In alt.english.usage on Fri, 09 Jan 2004 00:59:46 +0000 Dr Robin
Bignall <docrobin@ntlworld.com> posted:

>>>B. I don't think Jemima is in the same category as the other names,
>>>but I can't remember why, what I've heard about Jemima.  It might be
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>You mean you've never seen Frederick Ashton's production of a ballet from
>Beatrix Potter's tales, starring Ashton himself a Jemima Puddleduck?

I don't think that would count as a real Jemima. :)

>See
>http://www.danceview.org/archives/ashton/walker1.html
>but note that the 1992 date for "bring to the stage" is not true. The
>ballet, with Anthony Dowell dancing, was being staged by the Royal Ballet
>at Covent Garden in the early 1960s, with Antoinette Sibley as his partner.

s/ meirman    If you are emailing me please  
say if you are posting the same response.

Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years
            Indianapolis,   7 years
            Chicago,        6 years
            Brooklyn NY    12 years
            Baltimore      20 years
John Jolly - 29 Jan 2004 07:24 GMT
In my childhood in the USA there was a popular brand of pancake mix called
Aunt Jemina's Pancake Mix.  There was a picture of a black woman on the box
with a bandana around her head.  Nobody thought this was offensive at that
time.  Today it would be considered a racial stereotype.

> In alt.english.usage on Fri, 09 Jan 2004 00:59:46 +0000 Dr Robin
> Bignall <docrobin@ntlworld.com> posted:
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>              Brooklyn NY    12 years
>              Baltimore      20 years
Raymond S. Wise - 29 Jan 2004 08:37 GMT
> In my childhood in the USA there was a popular brand of pancake mix called
> Aunt Jemina's Pancake Mix.  There was a picture of a black woman on the box
> with a bandana around her head.  Nobody thought this was offensive at that
> time.  Today it would be considered a racial stereotype.

I'm sure that no matter how old you are, someone at that time did indeed
find that image of Aunt Jemima to be offensive, since it would conjure up to
the average person the image of the black woman as a servant to white
people--in this case a cook. However, the idea that a black woman could be
an expert cook--which was indeed one of the original ideas behind the
trademark---is *not* offensive, which is why the Aunt Jemima trademark is
still valued. She is now presented without the bandana. See

http://users.skynet.be/am028110/Docconverti/Aunt%20Jemina%20original1.jpg

> > In alt.english.usage on Fri, 09 Jan 2004 00:59:46 +0000 Dr Robin
> > Bignall <docrobin@ntlworld.com> posted:
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> > >at Covent Garden in the early 1960s, with Antoinette Sibley as his
> partner.

Signature

Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA

E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com

Yukon Jack - 31 Jan 2004 08:07 GMT
> In my childhood in the USA there was a popular brand of pancake mix called
> Aunt Jemina's Pancake Mix.  There was a picture of a black woman on the box
> with a bandana around her head.  Nobody thought this was offensive at that
> time.  Today it would be considered a racial stereotype.

Well, the local black families didn't like it back in the early 50s.  I
think more than anything it was the bandana and gold tooth.

I recall a promotion put on by a local grocery featuring a lady hired
to cook Aunt Jemima pancakes under the awning out front.  She certainly
didn't wear a bandana or (AFAIK) didn't have a gold tooth.  She was a
classy lady and had stories and smiles for all of us kids who hung
around for more pancakes all afternoon.

It turns out that she was also a great singer - she was introduced at
the Saturday Matinee at the local movie theater, and she sang some
wonderful popular songs (not "Negro" songs).

-Yukon Jack
MC - 08 Jan 2004 12:47 GMT
> B. I don't think Jemima is in the same category as the other names,
> but I can't remember why, what I've heard about Jemima.  It might be
> worth looking up on the web.

JEMIMA   f   Biblical, English
Pronounced: je-MIE-ma
Means "dove" in Hebrew. This was the oldest of the three daughters of
Job in the Old Testament.

Source:

http://www.behindthename.com/cgi-bin/search.cgi?terms=jemima&nmd=n&gender
=both&operator=or

A nice name forever tainted because of its associatin with "Aunt Jemima"
in the minds of black Americans, and therefore as suspect for them as
"Uncle Tom."
MC - 08 Jan 2004 12:50 GMT
> Of the people you name Latoya Jackson
> or Denzel Washington (was he given that name at birth?

DENZEL   m   English
Pronounced: den-ZEL
From a surname which originally belonged to a person from Denzell in
Cornwall. The name of the town possibly means either "fort" or "fertile
upland" in Cornish.

As far as I am able to determine it is the name he was given at birth.
Pat Durkin - 08 Jan 2004 18:09 GMT
> In alt.english.usage on 08 Jan 2004 02:44:31 GMT rigida7147@aol.com
> (Chris Tsao) posted:
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> C.   Wasn't the most famous Jamal named Lew
> Alcindor at birth and he renamed himself in his 20's.

Lew Alcindor's chosen African name was Kareem Abdul Jabbar. I recall that
some part of his name means "light". I looked up the name Ahmad Jamal in
Google (because I remember his great music) and found it at
http://www.ahmadjamal.info/ .  He was already recording in 1950 under that
name, and was born in 1930.  His bio doesn't really give any reason why he
has a Muslim name.

People who became members of Black Muslim groups frequently adopted these
Arabic or Muslim names, (Cassius Clay= Mohammed Ali) but knowing when that
movement began requires more time than I can spend right now.  I think I
recall that the first days of the movement were back in the 1920's.

Now, you can probably come up with the name of a (?Vikings) football player
who used either Jamal or Ahmad.
meirman - 08 Jan 2004 22:52 GMT
In alt.english.usage on Thu, 8 Jan 2004 12:09:40 -0600 "Pat Durkin"
<durkinpa@nothome.com> posted:

>> C.   Wasn't the most famous Jamal named Lew
>> Alcindor at birth and he renamed himself in his 20's.
>
>Lew Alcindor's chosen African name was Kareem Abdul Jabbar. I recall that

Right.  It was the Ja that confused me.  Sorry, Kareem.

>some part of his name means "light". I looked up the name Ahmad Jamal in
>Google (because I remember his great music) and found it at
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>movement began requires more time than I can spend right now.  I think I
>recall that the first days of the movement were back in the 1920's.

Something like that, but like most groups, it was small at the
beginning.

>Now, you can probably come up with the name of a (?Vikings) football player
>who used either Jamal or Ahmad.

I thought all Vikings were named Lief or Eric.

s/ meirman    If you are emailing me please  
say if you are posting the same response.

Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years
            Indianapolis,   7 years
            Chicago,        6 years
            Brooklyn NY    12 years
            Baltimore      20 years
meirman - 10 Jan 2004 23:39 GMT
In alt.english.usage on Wed, 07 Jan 2004 23:26:57 -0500 meirman
<meirman@invalid.com> posted:

P&M

>But the most interesting thing included in your question seems to be
>about the coined names, no two alike if possible, I assume.  My two
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>born or a few years earlier, but no earlier than 1965.  This is in
>many ways a guess, so if you can, let me know if I guessed right.

I think either I'm wrong here about the date, or the names have to be
divided into 2 categories.  I was talking to a friend on Friday, and I
remembered that I had a black friend named Berlinda when I was about
21, who was almost the same age as I.  She was born in 1948 I think in
Northern Indiana.

My friend has a business with hundreds of regular customers, maybe
half of them black.  She's met a lot of women with unique (in her
experience) names.  One was named Credella, and she would be in her
late 50's or 60's now.  I think she was born in the south, or her
parents were. So her name goes back to 1943 or earlier. My friend
thought her name and Berlinda were both southern names.  

(Baltimore itself is south of the Mason-Dixon line, but she's not
including it when she says South.  I don't know how many Americans
would.)

Still, I see a difference between these names, and Shenaiya, Keisha,
Shewanda, and many more that I forget, that seem to be coined by
changing one or two letters from a much older name, and then changing
one or two letters in the new name, and so forth**. That is what I'm
thinking started between 1965 and '70, and maybe it did.  

**I had until today thought Berlinda was in that category. I thought
it was a recently modified form (when my friend was born) of Belinda.
But my friend doesn't think so.  Darn, I should have checked Google
first.  She was a Catholic saint. Still is I suppose. :)  "Feastday:
February 3  A hermitess of Belgium. Berlinda, also called Berlindis or
Bellaude, was a niece of St. Amandus. She entered the Benedictine
convent of St. Mary's at Moorsel, in Belgium. She later became a
hermitess at Meerbeke."

I can't find when she lived, but I found someone whose family tree
includes someone by the name Berlinda in 962.  Boy was I wrong.

soc.culture.african.american.moderated seems like a good newsgroup for
you to ask your question, although I think I only participated in zero
or one thread

s/ meirman    If you are emailing me please  
say if you are posting the same response.

Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years
            Indianapolis,   7 years
            Chicago,        6 years
            Brooklyn NY    12 years
            Baltimore      20 years
Gary Eickmeier - 10 Jan 2004 02:09 GMT
> When did African-American mothers first come up with names like Latisha,
> Lakisha, Tawana (sp.?), Latoya, Jamal, Denzel and Darah? Condoleeza Rice looks
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> like Sarah and put a "D" in front of it to make it Darah, or both? Thanks
> again.

I have wondered about this as well. Thanks for asking it.

So are there ANY black people reading this newsgroup? For the love o'
God, just tell us why everything you do has to be so different from us.

Gary Eickmeier
 
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