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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2004camping
Some people consider it camping when they rent a cabin in the woods (or on a lake). Others think using a permanent structure is not camping. What do you think? s/ meirman If you are emailing me please say if you are posting the same response. Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years Indianapolis, 7 years Chicago, 6 years Brooklyn NY 12 years Baltimore 20 years > Some people consider it camping when they rent a cabin in the woods > (or on a lake). Others think using a permanent structure is not > camping. > > What do you think? I would personally think of temporary structures only. However, consider 'summer camp' etc. John. In alt.english.usage on Fri, 9 Jan 2004 08:07:45 -0000 "JM" <me8@privacy.net> posted: >> Some people consider it camping when they rent a cabin in the woods >> (or on a lake). Others think using a permanent structure is not [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >I would personally think of temporary structures only. However, consider >'summer camp' etc. I don't think people camp at summer camp. Strange, isn't it? >John. s/ meirman If you are emailing me please say if you are posting the same response. Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years Indianapolis, 7 years Chicago, 6 years Brooklyn NY 12 years Baltimore 20 years meirman@invalid.com spake thus: > In alt.english.usage on Fri, 9 Jan 2004 08:07:45 -0000 "JM" > <me8@privacy.net> posted: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > I don't think people camp at summer camp. Strange, isn't it? I did. I lived in a tent with a wooden floor, rather like those in MASH. There were some cabins as well.  SignatureDavid ===== In alt.english.usage on Sun, 11 Jan 2004 10:34:14 -0000 david56 <bass.c.voice@ntlworld.com> posted: >meirman@invalid.com spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >I did. I lived in a tent with a wooden floor, rather like those in >MASH. There were some cabins as well. That's great. We had cabins. With full length screened windows and slatted wooden doors hinged at the top that covered them during the winter. 2 or 3 bunk beds on each side (4 or 6 kids on each side) and a little area for writing letters. There was a time schedueled every couple days for writing our parents, but I managed never to write. I was in my home town 18 months ago, and I stopped at the YMCA to find out where the summer camp I went to was. The camp had been sold but the guy at the desk had been with the Y for 20 or 30 years and he knew where it was and gave me directions. (I went there and back twice, but I was only 9 and 10 and my mother or my friend's father drove. It was only about 10 or 20 miles out of town. Maybe that's why I didn't feel the need to write!). I hadn't been there for 44 years. It wasn't changed that much, though some of the cabins had been painted pastels** and I think 2 or 3 cabins were missing. The "old joe", the outhouse, was gone, and the "new joe", the building with the cement floor and flush toilets, and maybe cinder block walls, was gone, and there was a house there, but several cabins and the dining hall, and the crafts cabin, and the field where we played ball and had archery were still there. My favorite part was the obstacle course, which we only did once iirc in 2 summers (3 weeks total) but it seemed the river had changed its route, moved closer to the camp, and cut off all that area. The little beach where we went swimming, in a float/roped off area seemed to be gone. The shore had eroded so that for most of its available length it was 8 feet straight down from the land to the water, where there was only a foot of rather dry shore, and it was harder to get to the river. **I was told it had been an art colony for a decade or more, and by the time I got there it was for several years a weekend house for someone. It was a Monday and no one was there. I peed in the brush and took a few pictures. Maybe I live too much in the past, but it was fun seeing this memory from 44 years earlier. s/ meirman If you are emailing me please say if you are posting the same response. Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years Indianapolis, 7 years Chicago, 6 years Brooklyn NY 12 years Baltimore 20 years meirman@invalid.com spake thus: > In alt.english.usage on Sun, 11 Jan 2004 10:34:14 -0000 david56 > <bass.c.voice@ntlworld.com> posted: [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > There was a time schedueled every couple days for writing our parents, > but I managed never to write. I've mentioned this here before - being English I never went to camp as a child (we don't have them), but I spent two summers teaching sailing as a student (this is where I became fluent in American English). I shared my tent with a couple of canoe instructors, right on the waterfront of the camp lake, which was actually a small beach. Bliss. SignatureDavid ===== > In alt.english.usage on Sun, 11 Jan 2004 10:34:14 -0000 david56 > <bass.c.voice@ntlworld.com> posted: [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > Maybe I live too much in the past, but it was fun seeing this memory > from 44 years earlier. That sounds like a good experience. At least there was something to see and remember. I once went to a YMCA camp, it was when I was in the scouts, and they were running an introductory rock climbing course in the Lake District. The tents were called bell tents, I think, round in shape with one central pole, and slotted boards on the ground. Everyone slept with their feet to the pole. After pottering around on some outcrops and getting the feel of ropes, we climbed Napes Needle (I'm not sure of the spelling) but it was a sharp piece of rock on the side of a larger mountain. The instructors got us to purposely fall and feel the security of being on a rope, a feeling I never forgot. A flood of memories come back, of all those evenings, under the stars, beside the campfire, singing songs like "You'll never go to heaven", "Green grow the rushes oh", "On Ilkley Moor Bar T'at" and many others. [solo] I'll sing you one oh. [chorus] Green grow the rushes oh. One is one and all alone and never more shall be so. [solo] I'll sing you two oh. [chorus] Green grow the rushes oh. Two, two, the lilly white boy, dressed all in green, ho ho, one is one and all alone and never more shall be so. Does anyone remember 9, 10 and 11 ? Twelve for the twelve apostles, eleven for ? ten for ? nine for ? eight for the April rainers, seven for the seven stars in the sky, and six for the six brown walkers, five for the cymbals at your door, and four for the gospel makers, three, three, the rivals, two, two, the lilly white boy dressed all in green, ho ho, one is one and all alone and ever more shall be so. > [solo] > I'll sing you one oh. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > two, two, the lilly white boy dressed all in green, ho ho, > one is one and all alone and ever more shall be so. Six for the six *proud* walkers Nine for the nine bright shiners Ten for the Ten Commandments Eleven for the eleven that went to Heaven m. > > [solo] > > I'll sing you one oh. [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > Ten for the Ten Commandments > Eleven for the eleven that went to Heaven Thanks! It was 50 years ago that I first sang that. "Alan Illeman" <illemann@surfbest.net> wrote... > [...] I once went to a YMCA camp, it was when I was > in the scouts, and they were running an introductory rock climbing [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > "You'll never go to heaven", "Green grow the rushes oh", "On Ilkley > Moor Bar T'at" and many others. [...] You were very privileged to climb the Napes Needle, which thrusts proudly up from the Great Napes crags high up on the western flank of Great Gable. That priapic pinnacle is known as the birthplace of modern rock-climbing, the first recorded ascent being by William Haskett-Smith. You can be proud of having done that on an introductory course, I reckon. Virtual walk in the area: http://www.antonytowers.btinternet.co.uk/004/ History and photo: http://www.frcc.co.uk/rock/history/needle/napesneedle1.htm Matti > "Alan Illeman" <illemann@surfbest.net> wrote... > > [...] I once went to a YMCA camp, it was when I was [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > History and photo: > http://www.frcc.co.uk/rock/history/needle/napesneedle1.htm Thank you, Matti, excellent links. As far as I remember it was an 'introductory' couse to that region. In alt.english.usage on Mon, 12 Jan 2004 18:32:41 -0500 "Alan Illeman" <illemann@surfbest.net> posted: >> In alt.english.usage on Sun, 11 Jan 2004 10:34:14 -0000 david56 >> <bass.c.voice@ntlworld.com> posted: [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >> only about 10 or 20 miles out of town. Maybe that's why I didn't feel >> the need to write!). I hadn't been there for 44 years. It wasn't When I got to the road, I drove around in 2 or 3 mile "circle". I had to drive up someone's driveway and get directions to the actual place. It had been the first left after I got off the numbered road. >> changed that much, though some of the cabins had been painted >> pastels** and I think 2 or 3 cabins were missing. The "old joe", the >> outhouse, was gone, and the "new joe", the building with the cement >> floor and flush toilets, and maybe cinder block walls, was gone, and The new joe also had sinks and showers, of course. >> there was a house there, but several cabins and the dining hall, and >> the crafts cabin, and the field where we played ball and had archery [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> The little beach where we went swimming, in a float/roped off area >> seemed to be gone. The shore had eroded so that for most of its The erosion was in the same direction as the change in river course. >> available length it was 8 feet straight down from the land to the >> water, where there was only a foot of rather dry shore, and it was [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >That sounds like a good experience. At least there was something to I had a very good time. They kept us busy. One activity in the morning and two each afternoon, iirc, including one session sewing together little leather kits, with gimp. Remember that word? Like a comb sheath, or a wrist coin purse. Just two pieces each. Also archery once each week and target shooting with a BB-rifle. Swimming every day or two but I still didn't know how to swim, so for me it was going in up to my belly. I think that was as deep as it got! I used to run a hiking club in Baltimore, and archery was the hardest event to organize. I finally found a place that had equipment to lend, but I wasn't active in the club anymore! >see and remember. I once went to a YMCA camp, it was when I was Everyone knows what YMCA stands for, right? BTW, I'm a Jew but this was the only camp in town. Jews must have been 10% of the kids or more, and the cabins were named after donors, a couple of them after Jews from our little city. If one only went for the 1-week session, I think Sunday was arrival and departure day, and afaict there was nothing religious about the whole week. When I went for 2 weeks, Sunday morning they had services, and I went to see what they were like. I don't know why the camp closed, but the population of this city dropped from 50,000 to 35,000 and the whole area decreased in population. And I think people with money sent their kids to Wisconsin or upstate NY, I don't know why (cooler there?) >in the scouts, and they were running an introductory rock climbing Speaking of scouts, one night during the two week period we went camping (tending to prove we weren't camping at camp.) They said if we didn't have a sleeping bag, we could fold our blanket and sheets a way they showed us, and that would be the sleeping bag. Or maybe "bed roll" is the word there. So we walked a mile or two, along a road I think, to what I was told was an abandoned girl scout camp. At least no one was there. First time I went to "the bathroom" in the woods (I think the counselor dug a hole), and maybe dinner was cooked over a fire. It was the coldest night of my life, until seven years ago. It was the coldest night of the summer and people in the city had to turn on their heat. I shivered all night and my bed roll wouldn't stay together. I had to pee again, but I was far too cold to get up. It was bad. But it didn't turn me against camping. The next morning we walked back. My hiking clug has rented a children's summer camp for a three day weekend, and I've been to several others, and these days, the matttresses are covered in plastic. In my day they were still cotton ticking, and much better. Even with a sheet, plastic is terrible, because it makes me sweat. With a whole layer of sleeping bag it's not so bad or not bad at all, but nonetheless I'm so repulsed by the memory that, unless it's raining, I just lay down a plastic sheet and put the sleeping bag on it and sleep in a nearby field. If it rains a bit, I pull the other half of the plastic sheet over me. Now that I think about it, I learned to sleep with no tent at that Girl Scout camp, when I was 10. >course in the Lake District. The tents were called bell tents, I think, round >in shape with one central pole, and slotted boards on the ground. >Everyone slept with their feet to the pole. After pottering around on some Interesting. I say "puttering". >outcrops and getting the feel of ropes, we climbed Napes Needle (I'm Where is this? >not sure of the spelling) but it was a sharp piece of rock on the side of >a larger mountain. The instructors got us to purposely fall and feel the [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >Does anyone remember 9, 10 and 11 ? Not me. I don't think I've ever heard this. >Twelve for the twelve apostles, >eleven for ? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >two, two, the lilly white boy dressed all in green, ho ho, >one is one and all alone and ever more shall be so. s/ meirman If you are emailing me please say if you are posting the same response. Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years Indianapolis, 7 years Chicago, 6 years Brooklyn NY 12 years Baltimore 20 years see inline ... > In alt.english.usage on Mon, 12 Jan 2004 18:32:41 -0500 "Alan Illeman" > <illemann@surfbest.net> posted: [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Everyone knows what YMCA stands for, right? Young Men's Christian Association > BTW, I'm a Jew but this was the only camp in town. Jews must have > been 10% of the kids or more, and the cabins were named after donors, [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > > Interesting. I say "puttering". There is no reference for either in COD5 except to potter, and one who potters, a potterer. Even the nearest meaning 'trifle away one's time' does not adequately describe what I had in mind. Before first visiting the Lake District we had done quite a lot of rockclimbing on outcrops in the Welsh border country, probably the nearest rocks to Birmingham, plus some climbing in Wales, itself and I was certainly not a novice, although we had never received training in climbing with ropes, and rarely used them. At a young age, I simply had no fear and the additional security of roping up, opened up a whole new world. > >outcrops and getting the feel of ropes, we climbed Napes Needle (I'm > > Where is this? The Lake District is in northwestern England. Napes Needle is not very big, probably 80' at most and pretty straight forward, if you're being led, no so for the lead climber, though. From "The Technique of Mountaineering" by J.E.B. Wright (1950) "In 1906 thoughless relatives took me up the Napes Needle on Great Gable in hob-nailed boots. This frightened me so much that although I still liked to walk in the hills, I hated the sight of all steep rocks for many years." He goes on to describe the confidence he had, in later years, with ring clinker nails. (Ain't this ng wonderful, I didn't know I still had this book!) > >not sure of the spelling) but it was a sharp piece of rock on the side of > >a larger mountain. The instructors got us to purposely fall and feel the [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Not me. I don't think I've ever heard this. mUS1ka kindly filled in the blanks... Twelve for the twelve apostles, eleven for the eleven that went to heaven, ten for the ten commadments nine for the nine bright shiners, eight for the April rainers, seven for the seven stars in the sky, and six for the six proud walkers, five for the cymbals at your door, and four for the gospel makers, three, three, the rivals, two, two, the lilly white boy dressed all in green, ho ho, one is one and all alone and ever more shall be so. Of course, you should really hear it being sung, to appreciate it. In alt.english.usage on Thu, 15 Jan 2004 07:53:18 -0500 "Alan Illeman" <illemann@surfbest.net> posted: >> Interesting. I say "puttering". > >There is no reference for either in COD5 except to potter, and one who potters, Not even to the golf club putter. Heck, golf comes from Scotland. put·ter v. put·tered, put·ter·ing, put·ters v. intr. To occupy oneself in an aimless or ineffective manner. v. tr. To waste (time) in idling: puttered away the hours in the garden. [Probably alteration of potter, probably frequentative of Middle English poten, to poke, push, from Old English potian.]putter·er n. Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition >a potterer. Even the nearest meaning 'trifle away one's time' does not adequately >describe what I had in mind. Before first visiting the Lake District we had done [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >ropes, and rarely used them. At a young age, I simply had no fear and the >additional security of roping up, opened up a whole new world. That sounds great. >> >outcrops and getting the feel of ropes, we climbed Napes Needle (I'm >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >(Ain't this ng wonderful, I didn't know I still had this book!) Cool. s/ meirman If you are emailing me please say if you are posting the same response. Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years Indianapolis, 7 years Chicago, 6 years Brooklyn NY 12 years Baltimore 20 years > Not even to the golf club putter. Heck, golf comes from Scotland. Actually, it is thought to have come from Holland, where 'colf' was played, according to records, from 1297, and close interaction between Holland and Scotland from 1485. Reference: "Early Golf" by Steven van Hengel, as quoted in "Golf: THe History of an Obsession" by David Stirk, ISBN 0-7148-3290-1 > put·ter > v. put·tered, put·ter·ing, put·ters [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, > Fourth Edition I can tell you, having played golf for a number of years, that there is no such thing as "puttering" to describe any form of using the putter. But, indeed, "To occupy oneself in an aimless or ineffective manner" is how some people play golf :-) > Some people consider it camping when they rent a cabin in the woods > (or on a lake). Others think using a permanent structure is not > camping. > > What do you think? It's far too cold for camping, it's -15°C this morning! Nice try, though. A 'cabin' here is referred to as a cottage, regardless of whether it's a palace or a shack, and has nothing to do with camping, the latter being available to the masses in Provincial Parks using tents and/or campers. In alt.english.usage on Fri, 9 Jan 2004 07:23:42 -0500 "Alan Illeman" <illemann@surfbest.net> posted: >> Some people consider it camping when they rent a cabin in the woods >> (or on a lake). Others think using a permanent structure is not [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >the latter being available to the masses in Provincial Parks using >tents and/or campers. I wouldn't call the latter "camping" either, if I didn't fell constrained by the name "camper". It seems more powerful than "summer camp". :) s/ meirman If you are emailing me please say if you are posting the same response. Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years Indianapolis, 7 years Chicago, 6 years Brooklyn NY 12 years Baltimore 20 years > In alt.english.usage on Fri, 9 Jan 2004 07:23:42 -0500 "Alan Illeman" > <illemann@surfbest.net> posted: [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > constrained by the name "camper". It seems more powerful than "summer > camp". :) True camping for me, was hiking excursions to the Lake District and Scotland, using a tent when we couldn't find or reach a YHA/SYHA hostel. The youth club I belonged to had a monthly Sunday morning hike and a fixed camp in the summer, and some of us, the more adventurous, kayaked the Avon and Wye rivers, camping in tents along the way. The Avon, wide as it is at Stratford and Warwick, is but a mere ditch in parts, in between. It was fun to traverse upstream for a couple of days or so, and downstream in a day, with the many mini-rapids caused by the narrowing of the river The Wye with its spectacular white water and especially, the gorge where it flows into the Severn, where you have to judge the tide correctly, else you'll be marooned in the mud, waiting for the next tide, was always a remarkable experience. Much later, my wife and I drove throughout France and Switzerland, camping in a tent along the way, with the occasional hotel, to cleanup. We've done some camping in tents in Canada but as we've grown older, more accustomed to the comforts of home, have sold all our gear, with no regrets. Our neighbours next door go to the French River with their canoe and camp along the way but the considerable portaging they do, would kill me; across the road, they're the mechanised kind of campers with their towed 'camper', sort of like a mini-caravan, that folds down for travelling, sort of like taking some of the 'comforts of home', with you. Yuck. > Some people consider it camping when they rent a cabin in the woods > (or on a lake). Others think using a permanent structure is not > camping. Interesting question. Some people think that sleeping in a camper-van is camping -- and if it is not then why is the van so named? To the Romans, the word /Castra/ (camp) could mean anything from a collection of tents to a fortified military town, and the latter sense persists in military usage to this day (e.g. "Catterick Camp" in Yorkshire is what you would probably call a "military base"). I recall a friend telling me that the flat (appartment) he had rented was being decorated, and that he was "camping out in the Hilton" (or some other hotel, I forget) until the decorators had finished. I think the word "camp" generally implies a sense of the temporary or makeshift -- either of the nature of one's accommodation or one's expected use of it -- but not in all cases. Cheers, Daniel. >> Some people consider it camping when they rent a cabin in the woods >> (or on a lake). Others think using a permanent structure is not [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >Cheers, > Daniel. When my wife and I owned a small house (2 br) on a lake in noorthern Maine, everybody called such places camps. One family had what looked to us like a rustic palace, but it was still a camp. Both that one and ours, however, were summer places, without built-in heating systems or insulation, and thus uninhabitable in the winter. (It's 0 degrees F. in Boston today; it must be horrible up there.) Clearly, in that case, "temporary" is the operative word; the houses were permanent, but our stays in them were not. Carter Jefferson carterj98@mindspring.com http://carterj.homestead.com/ Once upon a 1/9/04 4:54 AM, in the land of VA.000004ed.04b9363a@nospam.aaisp.org, the very good"Daniel James" from <wastebasket@nospam.aaisp.org> wrote: >> Some people consider it camping when they rent a cabin in the woods >> (or on a lake). Others think using a permanent structure is not >> camping. > > Interesting question. Some people think that sleeping in a camper-van > is camping -- and if it is not then why is the van so named? It's not. It's an RV. But people still think they're camping when they're sitting inside their air-conditioned RV watching COPS on their satellite TV and nuking frozen dinners in their microwave. > > Some people think that sleeping in a camper-van > > is camping -- and if it is not then why is the van so named? > > It's not. It's an RV. Point taken, but: 1. Is *is* called a camper-van -- you understood what I meant didn't you -- and has been since long before the term RV was coined. I agree that that's not the only name for it, but the fact that there may be other names is not germane to my question. 2. Doesn't the term RV cover more types of vehicles than just camper vans? I don't know (see 3). 3. RV is not a term commonly used in rightpondia. I daresay it's found in magazines devoted to coverage of such things, but to the man in the street (or driving in a car stuck behind one on a narrow twisting country road) it's just a bloody camper van. Cheers, Daniel. Once upon a 1/10/04 6:01 AM, in the land of VA.000004f1.0a1cb029@nospam.aaisp.org, the very good"Daniel James" from <wastebasket@nospam.aaisp.org> wrote: >>> Some people think that sleeping in a camper-van >>> is camping -- and if it is not then why is the van so named? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > 1. Is *is* called a camper-van -- you understood what I meant > didn't you Not precisely. I guessed that you meant an RV, but I see that Mr. Harvey Van Sickle includes VW vans and perhaps other vehicles with camping shells in the category. "Camper van" is not used here in the states, as far as I can tell. > -- and has been since long before the term RV was > coined. Ah, yes, before "RV" they were "Winnebagos". >I agree that that's not the only name for it, but the fact > that there may be other names is not germane to my question. > > 2. Doesn't the term RV cover more types of vehicles than just > camper vans? I don't know (see 3). Well, as I said, I'm not sure exactly what "camper van" is supposed to mean, so I can't really say. To me "RV" mean primarily a "motorhome", perhaps a travel trailer (what you'd call a "caravan", I think), but not a VW van, even if it did have one of those pop-up tentish things in the roof. But I see the RV people of America do include a wider range of thingies: <http://www.rvamerica.com/rvtypes/index.html> Still, I'd call the pop-up and the pickup versions "campers", maybe, though not "camper vans". The "van conversions" are just that, and are designed primarily to allow young men who would otherwise expend all their resources on a fixed abode to provide transportation and shelter to young women with even fewer resources; not for an appreciation of nature's bounty. Er, nature's other bounty, I mean. > 3. RV is not a term commonly used in rightpondia. I daresay it's > found in magazines devoted to coverage of such things, but to the > man in the street (or driving in a car stuck behind one on a narrow > twisting country road) it's just a bloody camper van. Now, it's definitely a "damn RV" when I'm stuck behind one. They often have the courtesy to pull over and let one pass, if they don't have Ohio plates or "RENT ME" logos. > > 1. Is *is* called a camper-van -- you understood what I meant > > didn't you > > Not precisely. Oh, sorry, I assumed you had. > I guessed that you meant an RV, but I see that Mr. Harvey Van Sickle > includes VW vans and perhaps other vehicles with camping shells > in the category. It covers a multitude of sins! Those "VW vans" aren't necessarily camper vans, BTW, the same basic van is also found in box van format (what we'd refer to generically as a "transit van" in the UK, after the Ford version) and as, for example, a minibus. > "Camper van" is not used here in the states, as far as I > can tell. New Zealand seems to be the land of the camper van, but they're certainly known in many other places (though possibly not the states). > > 2. Doesn't the term RV cover more types of vehicles than just > > camper vans? I don't know (see 3). > > Well, as I said, I'm not sure exactly what "camper van" is supposed to > mean, so I can't really say. To me "RV" mean primarily a "motorhome" .. Further apologies, here. I think I was confusing "RV" with "SUV", and thinking that all "RV" covered both types. I still find that "RV" suggests more to me than "motorhome", though. Cheers, Daniel. In alt.english.usage on Mon, 12 Jan 2004 18:04:23 GMT Daniel James <wastebasket@nospam.aaisp.org> posted: >> "Camper van" is not used here in the states, as far as I >> can tell. > >New Zealand seems to be the land of the camper van, but they're certainly >known in many other places (though possibly not the states). The term is not used here, but if I knew what they were I could tell you if we have them. I think you mean things that don't involve pulling a trailer, and where you can walk from the front seats, two bucket seats, back to the living area, which can be from 6 feet long to 30 feet long. Right? The big ones are called Winnegabos, at least by those of us who only know a little. The owners probably care what brand something is. We also have pickup-campers, which are designed to be lowered into the bed of a pickup. Good ones even have an extension that goes over the driver/passenger seat area of the pickup and contains a mattress for two people. I't only tall enough to sit up in, or even less and I'm getting claustrophobic thinking about it**. And the part above the pickup load area might have a fold-down bed, and a stove etc. They're designed to be jacked up when you get home, and the pickup driven out from under it. I have a little claustrophobia for a long time that is getting worse as I get fatter. When I saw the pictures and drawings of the spider hole where Saddam was found, where the news said he could last for several days if he had to, I had trouble sleeping for 3 or 4 days! I've got to lose weight. It was really not noticeable until I got to be about 41. When I was 43 I even went caving and had to crawl for about 10 feet with the rock ceiling only 6 inches above my back. I didn't like it but I could control myself. Maybe if I had never done it I coudl do it now, but since I have, I will never do it again. s/ meirman If you are emailing me please say if you are posting the same response. Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years Indianapolis, 7 years Chicago, 6 years Brooklyn NY 12 years Baltimore 20 years > >New Zealand seems to be the land of the camper van, but they're > >certainly known in many other places (though possibly not the states). > > The term is not used here, but if I knew what they were I could tell > you if we have them. Try a Google 'images' for "camper van". Plenty of examples. > I think you mean things that don't involve pulling a trailer, and > where you can walk from the front seats, two bucket seats, back to > the living area, which can be from 6 feet long to 30 feet long. > Right? Er, that would probably come under the general heading of "camper van", but they're generally toward the small end of that size range, and you can't necessarily get from the driving seat and the 'travelling' are to the 'living' area without getting out of the vehicle. > The big ones are called Winnegabos, at least by those of us who only > know a little. Right, that's a brand name, isn't it? I've seen/heard it enough times in US books, films and TV shows to know what it means, but it's not a word (or a brand) we have here. Cheers, Daniel. In alt.english.usage on Thu, 15 Jan 2004 11:42:38 GMT Daniel James <wastebasket@nospam.aaisp.org> posted: >> >New Zealand seems to be the land of the camper van, but they're >> >certainly known in many other places (though possibly not the states). [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Try a Google 'images' for "camper van". Plenty of examples. I never think to use that. Thanks for getting me started (and to the other person. ) Yes, and as suggested by posters, none from the USA I think. (One from Canada) >t >necessarily get from the driving seat and the 'travelling' are to the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Right, that's a brand name, isn't it? Yeah, I guess they were the first to make them. The big ones seem great, with the fold down kitchen table with seats for four, and the shower, and not needing hook-ups except every few days**. I toured a couple at a sales lot once. **Maybe never. The lights run on a car battery which charges from the engine. The stove probably runs on LPG. The toilet has to be emptied every few days, but that isn't a hook-up iirc or at least it doesn't have to be. But even to rent them is a lot of money. Plus they don't exactly get good gas mileage, and apparently they still end up parking in campgrounds, and paying to do so. Me being me, at least when traveling I would want to park in the corner of a shopping center parking lot, for free. This must be where all the jokes come from about people parking their RVs in their brother-in-law's driveway. >I've seen/heard it enough times in US >books, films and TV shows to know what it means, but it's not a word (or a >brand) we have here. > >Cheers, > Daniel. s/ meirman If you are emailing me please say if you are posting the same response. Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years Indianapolis, 7 years Chicago, 6 years Brooklyn NY 12 years Baltimore 20 years > The term is not used here, but if I knew what they were I could tell > you if we have them. I think you mean things that don't involve > pulling a trailer, and where you can walk from the front seats, two > bucket seats, back to the living area, which can be from 6 feet long > to 30 feet long. Right? The big ones are called Winnegabos, at least . . . > We also have pickup-campers, which are designed to be lowered into the > bed of a pickup. I think "camper-van" was indeed used in the NE United States in the 1970s, most often for the VW vans of the period. The Winnebago is usually called a "recreational vehicle" nowadays. It is much bigger and more comfortable than the VW van but similarly organized. Camper attachments for pickup vans are more the size of the VW van, thus suitable only for sleeping or sitting in the rain. Winnebagos all have miniature kitchens and the larger ones toilets and sometimes even shower stalls. -- Don Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) > In alt.english.usage on Mon, 12 Jan 2004 18:04:23 GMT Daniel James > <wastebasket@nospam.aaisp.org> posted: [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > control myself. Maybe if I had never done it I coudl do it now, but > since I have, I will never do it again. Caving? We called it potholing in Britain. I didn't like it either. On 09 Jan 2004, Carmen L. Abruzzi wrote > Once upon a 1/9/04 4:54 AM, in the land of > VA.000004ed.04b9363a@nospam.aaisp.org, the very good"Daniel James" > from ><wastebasket@nospam.aaisp.org> wrote: >>> Some people consider it camping when they rent a cabin in the >>> woods (or on a lake). Others think using a permanent structure >>> is not camping. >> Interesting question. Some people think that sleeping in a >> camper-van is camping -- and if it is not then why is the van so >> named? > It's not. It's an RV. Are you sure? I still see the occasional old VW van in use here (UK), as well as small (and older) vehicles which have a tent-like extension to one side. Maybe you'd call those RVs, but I wouldn't. SignatureCheers, Harvey Ottawa/Toronto/Edmonton for 30 years; Southern England for the past 21 years. (for e-mail, change harvey to whhvs) In alt.english.usage on Fri, 09 Jan 2004 15:12:55 -0800 "Carmen L. Abruzzi" <carmenlabruzzi@yahoo.com> posted: >Once upon a 1/9/04 4:54 AM, in the land of >VA.000004ed.04b9363a@nospam.aaisp.org, the very good"Daniel James" from [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >sitting inside their air-conditioned RV watching COPS on their satellite TV >and nuking frozen dinners in their microwave. I"m not sure an RV is a camper. I'm thinking of a pop-up camper, or something no bigger. I haven't had one, but my mind has changed since the start of this thread. It now occurs to me that people with campers aiui don't cook in them. They cook on a campfire, or at most a propane grill they carry with them. They don't sit in them, but aiui on lawn chairs around the fire. Mostly they sleep in them, iiuc. Cooking over a fire and sitting around the fire, and possibly hiking in the woods do have some of the hallmarks of camping. s/ meirman If you are emailing me please say if you are posting the same response. Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years Indianapolis, 7 years Chicago, 6 years Brooklyn NY 12 years Baltimore 20 years Once upon a 1/10/04 3:40 PM, in the land of 6b3100ttla5iu6ot8f6tg0m268badpf336@4ax.com, the very good"meirman" from > In alt.english.usage on Fri, 09 Jan 2004 15:12:55 -0800 "Carmen L. > Abruzzi" <carmenlabruzzi@yahoo.com> posted: [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > I"m not sure an RV is a camper. I'm thinking of a pop-up camper, or > something no bigger. Yes, or one of those things that sits in the bed of a pickup truck. But neither of those is a "camper van", just a "camper". >I haven't had one, but my mind has changed since > the start of this thread. About having one? > It now occurs to me that people with campers aiui don't cook in them. > They cook on a campfire, or at most a propane grill they carry with > them. Yes, yes. I was just painting the extreme scenario, which, I maintain, does indeed occur. > They don't sit in them, but aiui on lawn chairs around the fire. Yes, some of them are friendly enough, and do enjoy the outdoors. For campground hosts who are in the campground all summer long, I can't really fault them, especially when they've got a fairly modest length. > Mostly they sleep in them, iiuc. Except when it's raining or cold. > Cooking over a fire and sitting around the fire, and possibly hiking > in the woods do have some of the hallmarks of camping. Woods or desert. Which reminds me, even of the forests around here in California, we don't normally say "woods". "In the forest" or "down in the trees" maybe. "In the woods" seems to be an eastern/midwestern thing. > > Some people consider it camping when they rent a cabin in the woods > > (or on a lake). Others think using a permanent structure is not > > camping. > > Interesting question. Some people think that sleeping in a camper-van > is camping -- and if it is not then why is the van so named? Because it's a van for campers. Imo, one cannot "camp" in a house or a vehicle. Adrian > > > Some people consider it camping when they rent a cabin in the woods > > > (or on a lake). Others think using a permanent structure is not [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Imo, one cannot "camp" in a house or a vehicle. Kenneth Williams might beg to differ. > > Some people think that sleeping in a camper-van > > is camping -- and if it is not then why is the van so named? > > Because it's a van for campers. > > Imo, one cannot "camp" in a house or a vehicle. The term camper van is used to describe a vehicle whose rear compartment includes an area furnished with sleeping accommodation. If using the sleeping accommodation inside a camper van is not camping I am still left wondering why it is so named. [My dictionary says that a camper van is a "motor vehicle furnished with beds and other equipment for camping". I was not familiar with the "other equipment" definition, and agree that it allows that the van might be used as living accommodation and the occupants might actually /sleep/ in a tent. I ask again, though, why is the kind of camper van that is furnished with beds known as a camper van, if one cannot camp in a vehicle?] I think it's fairly obvious that -- to some, at least -- camping can be done in a vehicle. Cheers, Daniel. >> > Some people think that sleeping in a camper-van >> > is camping -- and if it is not then why is the van so named? [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >van might be used as living accommodation and the occupants might >actually /sleep/ in a tent. My friend Jim specialises in buying, and restoring for resale, used campers, when he can find them. He does not call them 'camper vans' - the van part is understood. Some of the larger ones are just like a studio flat on wheels, with bed(s), kitchen, a toilet and shower, wardrobes, air conditioning, electrical points powered by a built-in generator, carpets, curtains, etc. These are much the same in internal appointments as caravans, but the latter need a vehicle to tow them. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England >>>>Some people think that sleeping in a camper-van >>>>is camping -- and if it is not then why is the van so named? [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > curtains, etc. These are much the same in internal appointments as > caravans, but the latter need a vehicle to tow them. The large ones you describe, with all the 'facilities', are what I would call a 'motor caravan'. To me, a 'camper van' is the old VW type - certainly no plumbing! Margot >>>>>Some people think that sleeping in a camper-van >>>>>is camping -- and if it is not then why is the van so named? [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >call a 'motor caravan'. To me, a 'camper van' is the old VW type - >certainly no plumbing! The term 'motor caravan' is a bit dated, and not used in the trade anymore. If you look at adverts, you'll see them all described as campers to distinguish them from caravans. Buyers know from the size as much as anything else what the internal appointments will be. You wouldn't expect a sit-down toilet and a shower in a 10 foot camper, but you might in a 20 foot one. I was amazed at the prices these things fetch. When I first met Jim about 8 months ago he was working on a small one (about 12 feet, double bed, tiny kitchen with butane rings), essentially doing a complete rebuild and re-carpeting of the interior. He spent about a week on it over a period of time, using standard wooden units to furnish it. It was mechanically sound but with a worn out and unfashionable interior. Cost him, in dollars at 1.5 to pound, $6,000, sold easily for almost $15,000. A new 20-footer could run to $75-100 thousand, depending on fittings. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England In alt.english.usage on Fri, 09 Jan 2004 12:54:26 GMT Daniel James <wastebasket@nospam.aaisp.org> posted: >> Some people consider it camping when they rent a cabin in the woods >> (or on a lake). Others think using a permanent structure is not [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >sense persists in military usage to this day (e.g. "Catterick Camp" >in Yorkshire is what you would probably call a "military base"). We have camps in our army too that are permanent. IIRC: Camp Pendleton, Camp LeJune (sp?) >I recall a friend telling me that the flat (appartment) he had rented >was being decorated, and that he was "camping out in the Hilton" (or >some other hotel, I forget) until the decorators had finished. But that's an idiosyncratic use. It's sort of ment to be humerous. But you're right, that it applies because it is temporary. >I think the word "camp" generally implies a sense of the temporary or >makeshift -- either of the nature of one's accommodation or one's >expected use of it -- but not in all cases. Hehe. The two examples I had in mind just rented the cabin (one or 1 1/2 rooms) for the weekend. >Cheers, > Daniel. s/ meirman If you are emailing me please say if you are posting the same response. Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years Indianapolis, 7 years Chicago, 6 years Brooklyn NY 12 years Baltimore 20 years > Some people consider it camping when they rent a cabin in the woods > (or on a lake). Others think using a permanent structure is not > camping. > > What do you think? Depends whether you go with Julian Clary. -- John Dean Oxford De-frag to reply In alt.english.usage on Fri, 9 Jan 2004 13:30:45 -0000 "John Dean" <john-dean@frag.lineone.net> posted: >> Some people consider it camping when they rent a cabin in the woods >> (or on a lake). Others think using a permanent structure is not [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> >Depends whether you go with Julian Clary. Who are all these people? s/ meirman If you are emailing me please say if you are posting the same response. Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years Indianapolis, 7 years Chicago, 6 years Brooklyn NY 12 years Baltimore 20 years >In alt.english.usage on Fri, 9 Jan 2004 13:30:45 -0000 "John Dean" ><john-dean@frag.lineone.net> posted: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Who are all these people? Clary is somewhat camp. http://www.julianclary.net/ Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England |
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