Unreal situation: we would place/we placed

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Marius Hancu - 10 Jan 2004 18:04 GMT

Hello:

On the CAPITALIZED:
-----
[the heroine, speaking, fancies herself attending Evie Cottrell's, her
enemy's, imaginary burial]
No, really, I'd tell Mrs. Cottrell as we PLACED Evie's urn in a family
vault in Godawful, Texas. Really, Evie wanted to be cremated.
[Chuck Palaniuk, Invisible Monsters, Ch. 15, p. 156]
-----

First, is this correct?

Why using "we placed" in describing this imaginary situation,
and not "we'd place" which would be anyway in concordance with "I'd
tell?"
I know past tense is used after "if" in imaginary situations,
but this is not exactly an "if" construction.

Now, mind you, the heroine is not known for being a good student:-))

Thanks,
Marius Hancu

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Alan Jones - 10 Jan 2004 20:07 GMT

> Hello:
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Now, mind you, the heroine is not known for being a good student:-))

Correct as it stands in British English. However, I note that some US
writers use the "would" (as in "we'd place") in the subordinate clause. I
think the logic (if that's what it is) of the BrE construction is that the
"I'd tell..." puts us into the imaginary situation, whereupon the imaginary
becomes a for-the-time-being reality and we therefore use the simple past.

Alan Jones

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Marius Hancu - 10 Jan 2004 21:22 GMT

> > -----
> > [the heroine, speaking, fancies herself attending Evie Cottrell's, her
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> "I'd tell..." puts us into the imaginary situation, whereupon the imaginary
> becomes a for-the-time-being reality and we therefore use the simple past.

OK, got it, but by the same token, we could have this fictional happening
placed in the present, isn't it, and have everything formulated as:

"No, really, I'd tell Mrs. Cottrell as we place Evie's urn in a
family vault in Godawful, Texas. Really, Evie wanted to be cremated."

Or that would be wrong?

Anyway, what the author is chosing for a a continuation here (and
this I haven't mentioned yet, mea culpa) seems to give some force to my
argument, as he's using "would" everywhere later on:

--------
No, really, I'd tell Mrs. Cottrell as we PLACED Evie's urn in a family
vault in Godawful, Texas. Really, Evie wanted to be cremated.

Me, at Evie's funeral, I'd be wearing this tourniquet-tight black
leather mini dress by Gianni Versace ... I'd sit next to Manus in the
back of the mortuary's big black caddy, and I'd have on this waggon
wheel of a black Christian Lacroix hat you could take off later and go
to a swell auction preview or estate sale or something and then,
lunch.
--------

Thank you very much.
Marius Hancu

Reply to this Message

Alan Jones - 11 Jan 2004 16:44 GMT

> > > -----
> > > [the heroine, speaking, fancies herself attending Evie Cottrell's, her
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
> to a swell auction preview or estate sale or something and then,
> lunch.

These "would"s are in main clauses; the plain past you asked about is in a
subordinate clause. That makes a difference. Your version with a
present-tense "place" isn't possible - even the fiction-as-if-fact is in the
past and must keep some kind of past tense. But it's true that the whole
passage is intentionally informal, even colloquial, and strange things occur
in speech that aren't comfortably handled by traditional analysis.

Alan Jones

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Adrian Bailey - 11 Jan 2004 01:18 GMT

> Hello:
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Now, mind you, the heroine is not known for being a good student:-))

The character means "I would tell Mrs Cottrell that we had placed Evie's
urn..." Simple past is often used instead of past perfect.

Adrian

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Marius Hancu - 11 Jan 2004 03:05 GMT

> > -----
> > [the heroine, speaking, fancies herself attending Evie Cottrell's, her
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> The character means "I would tell Mrs Cottrell that we had placed Evie's
> urn..." Simple past is often used instead of past perfect.

Understand your point; however, my reading of the paragraph
is quite different and based on simultaneity. I see it as meaning:

"While placing Evie's urn in a family vault in Godawful, Texas, I
would tell Mrs. Cottrell: No, really, Evie wanted to be cremated."

Thank you,
Marius Hancu

Reply to this Message

Adrian Bailey - 11 Jan 2004 04:18 GMT

> > > -----
> > > [the heroine, speaking, fancies herself attending Evie Cottrell's, her
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> "While placing Evie's urn in a family vault in Godawful, Texas, I
> would tell Mrs. Cottrell: No, really, Evie wanted to be cremated."

I'm sure you're wrong. "As" is commonly used in uneducated speech to mean
"that". And there is a period after "Texas".

Adrian

Reply to this Message

Marius Hancu - 11 Jan 2004 11:59 GMT

> > > > -----
> > > > [the heroine, speaking, fancies herself attending Evie Cottrell's, her
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> I'm sure you're wrong. "As" is commonly used in uneducated speech to mean
> "that". And there is a period after "Texas".

Well, thank you for pointing out this meaning of "as", I wasn't
really aware of it. It is confirmed by unabridged.merriam-webster:
----------
as
THAT -- used to introduce a noun clause and now dialect except in
certain negative expressions with know, say, or see that have wide
usage in informal speech
<he said as he would come>
<I don't know as it makes any difference>
----------

Unfortunately, as per:
http://www.chuckpalahniuk.net/authorcontact.php
I can't ask the author, because:
-----
As of December 14th, 2003, Chuck is no longer accepting, fielding, or
answering fanmail of any sort.
-----

I'll informally poll other people, as I am not convinced yet, but you
definitely have a point. Perhaps others on AEU will contribute to the
thread.

Thank you very much,
Marius Hancu

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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2004

Unreal situation: we would place/we placed