British dictionaries of English
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Larry Trask - 10 Jan 2004 19:29 GMT I am moved to introduce this thread by a couple of responses to my postings on sci.lang and on alt.english.usage. Be warned that this posting largely presents nothing but my opinions about British dictionaries of English.
First, in a discussion of the '-our' spellings in British English, I asserted that BrEng distinguishes the two spellings 'rigour' and 'rigor', with each associated with a distinct set of meanings. A respondent queried this statement, complaining that Collins was the only British dictionary he could find that recognized such a difference.
Second, I complained about a tendency in Britain to assert that the American word 'mugwump' means 'chief, boss'. I asserted that the word has no such meaning, and that it means only 'political independent, person who declines to take sides'. A respondent replied by quoting the British (actually Scottish) dictionary Chambers, which reports both uses.
Well, Collins is right on the first point, and Chambers is wrong on the second. This is not entirely surprising, since not all dictionaries are equal, and there are clear differences in reliability.
The four most prominent dictionary publishers in Britain are Collins, Longman, Chambers and Oxford. I have been teaching my students for years that the big Collins is far and away the best desk dictionary of English in Britain. I've examined a number of sample entries, and Collins beats the others into a cocked hat for coverage and for clarity and accuracy of definitions.
Longman is not in the same league, and it compares badly with Collins. (Try looking up the word 'game' in each, and draw your own conclusions.) Chambers is traditionally eccentric, and it is recommended only to Scrabble players. (That's the red Chambers; the new black Chambers is much more mainstream, but hardly a competitor to Collins.) As for the Oxford desk dictionaries, they are strictly antiques. They are compiled by cannibalizing the great OED, and they are hugely out of date.
But the picture has changed with the recent publication of the entirely new Oxford Dictionary of English. The ODE is based on a corpus, and it is superb. A colleague in my department who has a research interest in lexicography tells me that she now regards ODE as the best British dictionary, ahead even of Collins.
So, not all dictionaries are equal. Collins and ODE are very reliable (and ODE, by the way, agrees with Collins in recognizing both 'rigour' and 'rigor', with different senses). If some of the other dictionaries disagree with the big two, then in most cases that merely shows that they are not of the same standard.
I see too little of most American dictionaries to comment, but my colleague assures me that American Heritage is the best US dictionary. Good, because that's the one I use.
Larry Trask larryt@sussex.ac.uk
mUs1Ka - 10 Jan 2004 20:01 GMT > I am moved to introduce this thread by a couple of responses to my > postings on sci.lang and on alt.english.usage. Be warned that this [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > asserted that BrEng distinguishes the two spellings 'rigour' and > 'rigor', with each associated with a distinct set of meanings. Not quite true, Larry. You asserted that BrE uses only rigor. I asserted that it distinguishes the two spellings.
m.
Larry Trask - 12 Jan 2004 19:24 GMT [LT]
> > First, in a discussion of the '-our' spellings in British English, I > > asserted that BrEng distinguishes the two spellings 'rigour' and > > 'rigor', with each associated with a distinct set of meanings.
> Not quite true, Larry. You asserted that BrE uses only rigor. I asserted > that it distinguishes the two spellings. I listed 'rigor' in error among the '-or'-only words in BrEng. The word I had intended was 'rotor', but somehow 'rigor' crept in. After your correction, I apologized for the error and pointed out that 'rigo(u)r' in fact represents a quite different case: two spellings in BrEng with associated differences in meaning.
Go back and read the thread. It's all there.
Larry Trask larryt@sussex.ac.uk
Andrew Bull - 10 Jan 2004 20:55 GMT Larry Trask wrote in message <48c7f19.0401101129.1d9c49bd@posting.google.com>...
>First, in a discussion of the '-our' spellings in British English, I >asserted that BrEng distinguishes the two spellings 'rigour' and >'rigor', with each associated with a distinct set of meanings. A >respondent queried this statement, complaining that Collins was the >only British dictionary he could find that recognized such a >difference. In which case he presumably didn't check Chambers (1998), which also does.
>Second, I complained about a tendency in Britain to assert that the >American word 'mugwump' means 'chief, boss'. I asserted that the word >has no such meaning, and that it means only 'political independent, >person who declines to take sides'. A respondent replied by quoting >the British (actually Scottish) dictionary Chambers, which reports
>both uses. The Shorter Oxford asserts that "chief" is a mid-19th century usage, and that the modern usage dates from the late 19th century - might this not be correct, with the former usage having died out? In which case Chambers may be misleading but is not wrong.
>The four most prominent dictionary publishers in Britain are Collins, >Longman, Chambers and Oxford. I have been teaching my students for >years that the big Collins is far and away the best desk dictionary of >English in Britain. A friend of mine at college had a Collins. Its description of the usage of "educated Northerners" was so ludicrously patronising (and, as far as we could tell, wrong) that I've been prejudiced against it ever since :-)
>Chambers is traditionally eccentric, and it is >recommended only to Scrabble players It's also required by solvers of certain crosswords. (Incidentally, Scrabble players are better served by a word list; especially as IIRC "American" words are now allowed in British Scrabble).
Brian M. Scott - 11 Jan 2004 02:22 GMT On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 20:55:11 -0000 "Andrew Bull" <andrew@rbull15.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in <news:btpotn$bpu$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> in sci.lang,alt.english.usage:
> Larry Trask wrote in message <48c7f19.0401101129.1d9c49bd@p > osting.google.com>... [...]
>> Second, I complained about a tendency in Britain to >> assert that the American word 'mugwump' means 'chief, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> quoting the British (actually Scottish) dictionary >> Chambers, which reports both uses.
> The Shorter Oxford asserts that "chief" is a mid-19th > century usage, and that the modern usage dates from the > late 19th century - might this not be correct, with the > former usage having died out? Yes. Mencken has quite a bit of information in Supplement One to The American Language. The Dictionary of American English on Historical Principles (Craigie & Hulbert) reports that it was first used in 1832. Mencken says that it seems to have been little used until 1884, when the New York Sun applied it derisively to Republicans who refused to support James G. Blaine for the Presidency. It instantly became popular, even some of the independents embracing it. One made a speech in which he said:
I am an independent -- a _mugwump_. I beg to state that _mugwump_ is the best of American. It belongs to the language of the Delaware Indians; it occurs many times in Eliot's Indian Bible; and it means a great man. (Eliot had Algonquin <mugquomp> 'a chief' to translate <duke>.)
Mencken goes on to say that after that the term remained in general use for one who bolts from his political party, but suggesting further that the bolter professes 'a certain undemocratic superiority'. In 1925 Sir Henry Hadow, then vice-chancellor of Sheffield University, understood it to mean one who is 'too superior or too unstable minded to join with either side'. Mencken reports that Partridge described it as fully naturalized in Britain in the second (1938) edition of his dictionary of slang.
[...]
Brian
Martin Ambuhl - 11 Jan 2004 06:26 GMT > Larry Trask wrote in message > <48c7f19.0401101129.1d9c49bd@posting.google.com>... [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > In which case he presumably didn't check Chambers (1998), which also does. As do Chambers (2003), OED1 (1933), SOED3 (1944, rev 1956), SOED4 (1993)=NSOED, SOED5 (2003), and even COD10 (1999). I hope Larry Trask doesn't depend on that respondent for serious information.
 Signature Martin Ambuhl
Paul Wood - 11 Jan 2004 18:16 GMT > > Larry Trask wrote in message > > <48c7f19.0401101129.1d9c49bd@posting.google.com>... [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > (1993)=NSOED, SOED5 (2003), and even COD10 (1999). I hope Larry Trask > doesn't depend on that respondent for serious information. Hi Martin,
Certainly, the SOED CD has all the nuances that Larry craves for -- if, at 90 pounds sterling, it's a bit expensive. However, it is fabulous to use, gives etymologies as well and has corpus examples going back to about the 15 century.
The ones Larry is talking about are the shelf-top one-volume versions, I think, which all go out at around 30 pounds sterling.
HtHH
Paul Wood
Martin Ambuhl - 11 Jan 2004 18:38 GMT >>>Larry Trask wrote in message >>><48c7f19.0401101129.1d9c49bd@posting.google.com>... [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > The ones Larry is talking about are the shelf-top one-volume versions, > I think, which all go out at around 30 pounds sterling. Did you not check the first and last entries in that list? Chambrs (2003) and COD10 (1999) are "shelf-top one-volume versions." Anyone paying 30 pounds sterling for either has more money than brains.
 Signature Martin Ambuhl
Paul Wood - 12 Jan 2004 19:04 GMT > >>>Larry Trask wrote in message > >>><48c7f19.0401101129.1d9c49bd@posting.google.com>... [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > and COD10 (1999) are "shelf-top one-volume versions." Anyone paying 30 > pounds sterling for either has more money than brains. Hi Martin,
You're clearly not a translator. Dictionaries under 30 pounds sterling are a mere snip in our trade.
My point was, I think, this: the Oxford SOED CD, despite its price, may be the answer to one of Larry Trask's dreams!
Regards
Paul
Martin Ambuhl - 12 Jan 2004 19:22 GMT > Hi Martin, > > You're clearly not a translator. You clearly don't know your a.s from a hole in the ground.
 Signature Martin Ambuhl
Paul Wood - 16 Jan 2004 21:47 GMT > > Hi Martin, > > > > You're clearly not a translator. > > You clearly don't know your a.s from a hole in the ground. Hi Martin, let me relish that.
Quote: You clearly don't know your a.s from a hole in the ground: Unquote.
That's really witty repartee Martin. How long did you take to write it? The result of a four-semester crash-course in creative writing at your local community college?
ROTFWL to the power of n.
Hey! Jay Leno is looking to boost his gag-writing team. Do you mind if I recommend you?
You clearly don't know your a.s from a hole in the ground.
Chuckle, chuckle, chuckle. You are so funny.
Cheers & thanks for the amusement
Paul
PS The fish can't think because he knows it all [Pop/Gregovic: 1993]
Martin Ambuhl - 16 Jan 2004 22:03 GMT >>>Hi Martin, >>> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Hi Martin, let me relish that. The difference is that you know nothing about me. I, on the other hand, know that I am a translator. Your assertion that I "clearly" am not indicates that you not only don't know, but are willing to commit to writing a lie: that you *do( know, and what you know is an untruth.
 Signature Martin Ambuhl
Nigel Greenwood - 12 Jan 2004 09:26 GMT "Andrew Bull" <andrew@rbull15.freeserve.co.uk> wrote
<...>
> A friend of mine at college had a Collins. Its description of the usage of > "educated Northerners" was so ludicrously patronising (and, as far as we > could tell, wrong) that I've been prejudiced against it ever since :-) What is it with Collins? In the first (1971) ed of the Collins Spanish Dictionary, a discussion of terms for birds includes the phrase "Spaniards -- who are poor on such subjects -- ...".
Nigel
Peter T. Daniels - 12 Jan 2004 12:36 GMT > <...> > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Dictionary, a discussion of terms for birds includes the phrase > "Spaniards -- who are poor on such subjects -- ...". HarperCollins _is_ owned by Rupert Murdoch, is it not?
 Signature Peter T. Daniels grammatim@att.net
Dylan Sung - 12 Jan 2004 13:43 GMT > > <...> > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > HarperCollins _is_ owned by Rupert Murdoch, is it not? Rupert Murdoch is Australian. For some Britains, he's positively antipodean.
Dyl.
Harvey Van Sickle - 12 Jan 2004 13:50 GMT On 12 Jan 2004, Dylan Sung wrote
> "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
>> HarperCollins _is_ owned by Rupert Murdoch, is it not? > > Rupert Murdoch is Australian. Does he still retain that citizenship?
I thought he had to renounce it when he was forced to take out American citizenship or not buy newspapers in that country.
 Signature Cheers, Harvey
Ottawa/Toronto/Edmonton for 30 years; Southern England for the past 21 years. (for e-mail, change harvey to whhvs)
John Dean - 12 Jan 2004 14:56 GMT >>> <...> >>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Rupert Murdoch is Australian. For some Britains, he's positively > antipodean. He's American -- John Dean Oxford De-frag to reply
Dylan Sung - 12 Jan 2004 17:19 GMT > >>> <...> > >>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > He's American Is he? He was a paper editor to begin with in Australia wasn't he?
Dyl.
John Dean - 12 Jan 2004 19:35 GMT >>>>> <...> >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Is he? He was a paper editor to begin with in Australia wasn't he? Uh-huh. So was his Dad. Coincidence, huh? -- John 'Look out for 'Black and White' at a cinema near you' Dean Oxford De-frag to reply
Thomas Widmann - 18 Jan 2004 10:20 GMT > > What is it with Collins? In the first (1971) ed of the Collins > > Spanish Dictionary, a discussion of terms for birds includes the > > phrase "Spaniards -- who are poor on such subjects -- ...". > > HarperCollins _is_ owned by Rupert Murdoch, is it not? It is, but Collins back in 1971 was not.
/Thomas
 Signature Thomas Widmann twid@bibulus.org http://www.twid.bibulus.org Flat 3/2, 54 Mavisbank Gardens, Glasgow G51 1HL, Scotland, EU *** Ny gruppe om nordiske sprog: europa.linguas.germanic.nord ***
Peter T. Daniels - 18 Jan 2004 12:48 GMT > > > What is it with Collins? In the first (1971) ed of the Collins > > > Spanish Dictionary, a discussion of terms for birds includes the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > It is, but Collins back in 1971 was not. They knew which side their bread was to be buttered on.
 Signature Peter T. Daniels grammatim@att.net
Thomas Widmann - 18 Jan 2004 12:57 GMT > > > > What is it with Collins? In the first (1971) ed of the Collins > > > > Spanish Dictionary, a discussion of terms for birds includes the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > They knew which side their bread was to be buttered on. They must've been psychic, knowing so twenty years before they were actually bought.
/Thomas
 Signature Thomas Widmann twid@bibulus.org http://www.twid.bibulus.org Flat 3/2, 54 Mavisbank Gardens, Glasgow G51 1HL, Scotland, EU *** Ny gruppe om nordiske sprog: europa.linguas.germanic.nord ***
Peter T. Daniels - 18 Jan 2004 14:28 GMT > > > > > What is it with Collins? In the first (1971) ed of the Collins > > > > > Spanish Dictionary, a discussion of terms for birds includes the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > They must've been psychic, knowing so twenty years before they were > actually bought. Exactly.
 Signature Peter T. Daniels grammatim@att.net
Thomas Widmann - 10 Jan 2004 21:20 GMT > [...] A respondent replied by quoting the British (actually > Scottish) dictionary Chambers, which reports both uses. [...] If you're looking at dictionaries from Scotland, Chambers is not the only one up here: Collins is located in Glasgow.
/Thomas
 Signature Thomas Widmann twid@bibulus.org http://www.twid.bibulus.org Flat 3/2, 54 Mavisbank Gardens, Glasgow G51 1HL, Scotland, EU *** Ny gruppe om nordiske sprog: europa.linguas.germanic.nord ***
Larry Trask - 12 Jan 2004 19:33 GMT > > [...] A respondent replied by quoting the British (actually > > Scottish) dictionary Chambers, which reports both uses. [...] > > If you're looking at dictionaries from Scotland, Chambers is not the > only one up here: Collins is located in Glasgow. Yes, but there's a difference. The red Chambers has always emphasized its Scottishness by entering a large number of expressly Scottish words and forms. Collins doesn't do that, and I don't think the new black Chambers does either.
Larry Trask larryt@sussex.ac.uk
Thomas Widmann - 19 Jan 2004 20:34 GMT > > If you're looking at dictionaries from Scotland, Chambers is not > > the only one up here: Collins is located in Glasgow. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Scottish words and forms. Collins doesn't do that, and I don't > think the new black Chambers does either. I just had a wee look at the source for the Collins English Dictionary today (yes, I work there): There are more than 700 entries that contain a 'Scot' label. I'm not sure how that compares with either of the Chambers, though.
/Thomas
 Signature Thomas Widmann twid@bibulus.org http://www.twid.bibulus.org Flat 3/2, 54 Mavisbank Gardens, Glasgow G51 1HL, Scotland, EU *** Ny gruppe om nordiske sprog: europa.linguas.germanic.nord ***
John Dean - 11 Jan 2004 00:13 GMT > I am moved to introduce this thread by a couple of responses to my > postings on sci.lang and on alt.english.usage. Be warned that this [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > only British dictionary he could find that recognized such a > difference. OED recognises it.
> Second, I complained about a tendency in Britain to assert that the > American word 'mugwump' means 'chief, boss'. I asserted that the word > has no such meaning, and that it means only 'political independent, > person who declines to take sides'. A respondent replied by quoting > the British (actually Scottish) dictionary Chambers, which reports > both uses. OED has both and offers cites (from the USA) to uphold both. I'm surprised that American Dictionaries don't cite these homegrown quotes:
<< 1877 J. H. Bromley in N.Y. Tribune 16 Feb., John A. Logan is the Head Centre, the Hub, the King Pin, the Main Spring, Mogul, and Mugwump of the final plot. 1925 N.Y. Times 10 May, The royal red Indian mugwump, the chief, was copiously red-blooded. >>
<< 1884 W. Everett Sp. at Quincy, Mass. 13 Sept. (Stanf.), I am an independent-a Mugwump. ... 1888 Bryce Amer. Commw. II. iii. lvi. 379 The case of these Independents, or Mugwumps, is an illustrative one.+ Very few+ take an active part in 'politics', however interested they may be in public affairs. >> -- John Dean Oxford De-frag to reply
Raymond S. Wise - 11 Jan 2004 04:36 GMT > > I am moved to introduce this thread by a couple of responses to my > > postings on sci.lang and on alt.english.usage. Be warned that this [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > Oxford > De-frag to reply *The Century Dictionary,* an American dictionary of 1895, lists two definitions which were used earlier than the definitions which are listed in modern American dictionaries, the latter definitions being that of a Republican who refused to support his party's nominee in the 1884 election and that of a political independent.
From www.century-dictionary.com
[quote]
mugwump [...] I. _n._ 1[obsolete]. An Indian chief ; an Indian leader. Said to have been used among the Indians and whites of Mas- sachusettes and Connecticut in the seventeenth and eigh- teenth centuries.
2. (_a_) A person of importance ; a man of conse- quence ; a leader. In this sense long in local use along the coast of Massachusetts and the Connecticut short of Long Island Sound. Hence--(_b_) A person who thinks himself of consequence ; a self-im- portant man : a humorous or satirical use of the preceding. In this sense the word was also long in local use as above, and occasionally appeared in print (as in the Indianapolis "Sentinel," in 1872, and the New York' "Sun," March 23d, 1884).
The great _Mugwump_ [a Democratic (Locofoco) candidate for county commissioner] was delivered of a speech upon the occasion, which was highly applauded by the great "Doctor Dum-never." _Tippecanoe Log-cabin Songster,_ May 29, 1840 (a later edi- [tion, dated July 4, 1840) : issued "from the office [of the 'Great Western.'"
[In a "song" following the above, in the "negro" dia- lect, the same person is referred to as "ole _mug,_" and "honest, honest, _mugwump_ coon."]
Then the great _mugwump_ [a Democratic (Locofoco) can- didate for Congress] was delivered of a speech which the faithful loudly applauded. _Solon Robinson,_ editorial in the "Great Western," [Lake Co., Ind., July 4, 1840.
We have yet to see a Blaine organ which speaks of the Independent Republicans otherwise than a Pharisees, hypocrites, dudes, _mugwumps,_ transcendentalists, or some- thing of that sort. _New York Evening Post,_ June 20, 1884.
The educated men in all the university towns . . . are in open revolt now. . . . We presume they can be partially disposed of by calling them free-traders--all educated men are free-traders, it seems--and if any of them hold out after that, they can be called _mugwumps._ _The Nation,_ July 24, 1884, p. 61.
[end quote]
This is followed by a third definition, the 1884 Republican sense, which is labeled with the usage note "[U. S. political slang in this sense and the next.] The next sense being the fourth definition of "In general, an independent."
The 1913 Webster's revised unabridged dictionary at
http://humanities.uchicago.edu/forms_unrest/webster.form.html
lists only one sense, the 1884 political sense, which it identifies in a usage note as "[Political Cant, U.S.]"
 Signature Raymond S. Wise Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com
John A. Rea - 14 Jan 2004 01:27 GMT > "John Dean" <john-dean@frag.lineone.net> wrote in message (much snipped)
Note that _The Century Dictionary_ was edited by one William Dwight Whitney, author of another text of some interest to Linguists which is just overe three feet away from my computer on my bookshelf. A grammar, in this case, not a dictionary.
I sometimes wonder if others on this list may have spent as many hours with that book as I did in my younger days.
Jack
> *The Century Dictionary,* an American dictionary of 1895, lists two > definitions which were used earlier than the definitions which are listed in > modern American dictionaries, the latter definitions being that of a > Republican who refused to support his party's nominee in the 1884 election > and that of a political independent. (more snipped)
Adrian Bailey - 11 Jan 2004 00:52 GMT > I am moved to introduce this thread by a couple of responses to my > postings on sci.lang and on alt.english.usage. Be warned that this [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > only British dictionary he could find that recognized such a > difference. Then your respondent was surely wrong. I dare say you have the main dictionaries at your elbow and could confirm this yourself.
> Second, I complained about a tendency in Britain to assert that the > American word 'mugwump' means 'chief, boss'. I asserted that the word > has no such meaning, and that it means only 'political independent, > person who declines to take sides'. A respondent replied by quoting > the British (actually Scottish) dictionary Chambers, which reports > both uses. It does indeed (in the 1993 edition, at least), and the definition is little changed from the 1911 edition. Clearly whoever was responsible for the M's wasn't doing their job properly.
> Well, Collins is right on the first point, and Chambers is wrong on > the second. This is not entirely surprising, since not all [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > new black Chambers is much more mainstream, but hardly a competitor to > Collins.) I think Chambers is excellent for crosswords and for literate types but you're right that it's not scientific enough to be taken too seriously. I think it's unfortunate that it's the official dictionary of Scrabble - there are too many non-words in it.
Adrian
Sebastian Hew - 11 Jan 2004 01:23 GMT > I think Chambers is excellent for crosswords and for literate types > but you're right that it's not scientific enough to be taken too > seriously. I think it's unfortunate that it's the official dictionary > of Scrabble - there are too many non-words in it. And too many foreign words masquerading as English too. I suspect this is precisely the reason Chambers is used for crosswords and Scrabble, although, there was a historical justification in that old editions of the OUP dictionaries capitalised all words, so it was difficult to determine what was a proper noun.
In the crossword world, the COED is generally regarded as the standard for 'common words', i.e., if it's in the COED, then it is 'common'. 'Obscure' words may be found in the Chambers, and, generally, a word is off-limits if it is not in either of these dictionaries. This, at least, is the accepted notion of fair play in crosswords.
Thomas Widmann - 11 Jan 2004 09:08 GMT > I think Chambers is excellent for crosswords and for literate types > but you're right that it's not scientific enough to be taken too > seriously. I think it's unfortunate that it's the official > dictionary of Scrabble - there are too many non-words in it. It is going to change very soon:
<http://www.absp.org.uk/news/collins.html>
/Thomas
 Signature Thomas Widmann twid@bibulus.org http://www.twid.bibulus.org Flat 3/2, 54 Mavisbank Gardens, Glasgow G51 1HL, Scotland, EU *** Ny gruppe om nordiske sprog: europa.linguas.germanic.nord ***
Graeme Thomas - 11 Jan 2004 14:58 GMT >Chambers is traditionally eccentric, and it is >recommended only to Scrabble players. This is a little harsh on Chambers, and it's becoming out-of-date.
Chambers has long been the Dictionary of Choice for crossword puzzles. It was mainly for this reason (because of the significant overlap between cruciverbalists and Scrabble players in the UK) that Chambers was picked as the Scrabble reference dictionary for clubs and tournaments. Before that decision was made some clubs used Chambers, while others used the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary.
A few years ago the UK Scrabble players decided to adopt a combined word list made from the Chambers-derived word list and the American equivalent. This combined list is used for English-language Scrabble in all countries except the USA, Canada, and Israel.
Late last year Mattel, who own the rights to Scrabble outside the USA and Canada, announced that they were dropping the contract with Chambers and signing up with Collins. It is as yet unclear how much that will affect the set of allowed words, either in the UK or abroad.
None of these shenanigans will affect the use of Chambers in crosswords, though.
See <http://www.absp.org.uk> for the announcement about the switch between Chambers and Collins.
See <http://www.teleport.com/~stevena/scrabble/faq.html> for a description of the word lists in use around the world.
And, Larry, ask Lynne for a description of what's happening in UK Scrabble.
 Signature Graeme Thomas
Philip Anderson - 15 Jan 2004 21:58 GMT Larry Trask wrote in message <48c7f19.0401101129.1d9c49bd@posting.google.com>... <snip>
>Second, I complained about a tendency in Britain to assert that the >American word 'mugwump' means 'chief, boss'. I asserted that the word >has no such meaning, and that it means only 'political independent, >person who declines to take sides'. A respondent replied by quoting >the British (actually Scottish) dictionary Chambers, which reports >both uses. <snap>
As an American word it may _no longer_ mean "boss", but in British English it still does. This is the only sense in which I have met it being used, although dictionaries do give the alternative meaning of an (American) independent.
Has it ever been used to describe an independent politician in Britain? If not, then this must clearly be the secondary meaning.
-- hwyl/cheers Philip Anderson Cymru/Wales
Dylan Sung - 16 Jan 2004 20:32 GMT > Larry Trask wrote in message > <48c7f19.0401101129.1d9c49bd@posting.google.com>... [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Has it ever been used to describe an independent politician in Britain? > If not, then this must clearly be the secondary meaning. I've never met this word used in the last twenty years except when Burrough's Naked Lunch was made into a movie. Would one consider it obselete?
Dyl.
Peter T. Daniels - 16 Jan 2004 22:08 GMT > > Larry Trask wrote in message > > <48c7f19.0401101129.1d9c49bd@posting.google.com>... [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Burrough's Naked Lunch was made into a movie. Would one consider it > obselete? I've never met this word outside that 11th-grade American History textbook.
Is there a concordance of Mark Twain, or William Dean Howells, or other popular novelists of the era?
 Signature Peter T. Daniels grammatim@att.net
Raymond S. Wise - 16 Jan 2004 23:03 GMT > > > Larry Trask wrote in message > > > <48c7f19.0401101129.1d9c49bd@posting.google.com>... [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > Is there a concordance of Mark Twain, or William Dean Howells, or other > popular novelists of the era? Mark Twain was a Mugwump in the 1884 political sense, while his friend William Dean Howells stuck with the Republican party. See
http://www.boondocksnet.com/twainwww/essays/howells_memoirs9803.html
and
http://www.boondocksnet.com/twaintexts/biography/paine_bio151.html
and see what Mark Twain had to say about being a Mugwump at
http://www.twainquotes.com/Mugwump.htm
 Signature Raymond S. Wise Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com
Raymond S. Wise - 16 Jan 2004 23:32 GMT > > > > Larry Trask wrote in message > > > > <48c7f19.0401101129.1d9c49bd@posting.google.com>... [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > http://www.twainquotes.com/Mugwump.htm Correction: That should be http://www.twainquotes.com/Mugwump.html
 Signature Raymond S. Wise Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com
Tak To - 17 Jan 2004 05:54 GMT Dylan Sung wrote: DS> I've never met this word used in the last twenty years except when DS> Burrough's Naked Lunch was made into a movie. Would one consider it DS> obselete?
PTD> I've never met this word outside that 11th-grade American History PTD> textbook.
No Harry Potter fan here? JK Rowlings (a British writer) bestows the title of "Supreme Mugwump" on the Gandalf-like character Albus Dumbledore, who is the headmaster of Harry's Wizardry school, Hogwarts.
Btw, there is a Taiwan translation and a PRC translation of Harry Potter. It is rather interesting comparing the two. E.g., the fifth "Harry Potter and the Order of Phoenix" was translated as "...鳳凰社" in one and "鳳凰會密令" in the other.
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Peter T. Daniels - 17 Jan 2004 12:41 GMT > Dylan Sung wrote: > DS> I've never met this word used in the last twenty years except when [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Albus Dumbledore, who is the headmaster of Harry's Wizardry school, > Hogwarts. All the more reason not to expose impressionable children to it: she uncomprehendingly mingles Native American lore in with the hodge-podge of everything else that seems to have gotten thrown into the mix? Or in Britain do they still suppose it's ok to consider persons of other cultures as "cute" repositories of "quaint" customs and lore that can be plundered for their amusement?
> Btw, there is a Taiwan translation and a PRC translation of > Harry Potter. It is rather interesting comparing the two. > E.g., the fifth "Harry Potter and the Order of Phoenix" > was translated as "...é33åý°ç¤*" in one and "é33åý°æå¯Ý令" in the > other.  Signature Peter T. Daniels grammatim@att.net
Dr Robin Bignall - 17 Jan 2004 13:35 GMT >> Dylan Sung wrote: >> DS> I've never met this word used in the last twenty years except when [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >cultures as "cute" repositories of "quaint" customs and lore that can be >plundered for their amusement? Yes, we invariably do, Peter. Mainly because most other peoples, and particularly Americans, consider that we are a cute repository of quaint customs and lore that can be plundered for their amusement. No written constitution, for example; those weird beefeaters; changing the guard at Buckingham Palace; all of those crazy old castles; Shakespeare's birthplace; etc. And we *still* are a monarchy. How absolutely quaint.
Maybe our children are not so impressionable, either. Rowling has got a whole generation of them reading, and parents reading to them. Better that than 24/7 TV.
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Ayaz Ahmed Khan - 17 Jan 2004 23:23 GMT "Dr Robin Bignall" typed:
>>> Dylan Sung wrote: >>> DS> I've never met this word used in the last twenty years except [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > got a whole generation of them reading, and parents reading to them. > Better that than 24/7 TV.
Might be a good read for you,
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Brian M. Scott - 17 Jan 2004 16:46 GMT On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 12:41:24 GMT "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@worldnet.att.net> wrote in <news:40092D75.3D05@worldnet.att.net> in sci.lang,alt.english.usage:
>> Dylan Sung wrote: >> DS> I've never met this word used in the last twenty years except when >> DS> Burrough's Naked Lunch was made into a movie. Would one consider it >> DS> obselete?
>> PTD> I've never met this word outside that 11th-grade American History >> PTD> textbook.
>> No Harry Potter fan here? JK Rowlings (a British writer) bestows >> the title of "Supreme Mugwump" on the Gandalf-like character >> Albus Dumbledore, who is the headmaster of Harry's Wizardry school, >> Hogwarts.
> All the more reason not to expose impressionable children to it: she > uncomprehendingly mingles Native American lore in with the hodge-podge > of everything else that seems to have gotten thrown into the mix? The word is not part of native N.A. lore. I wouldn't describe the Alg. word on which it's based in those terms, either. I haven't any use for the H.P. books -- odd, really, since they belong to two genres, fantasy and the school story, that I normally enjoy, but I bounced hard off the opening to the first one and haven't gone back -- but 'Supreme Mugwump' doesn't bother me, at least not for this reason.
> Or in > Britain do they still suppose it's ok to consider persons of other > cultures as "cute" repositories of "quaint" customs and lore that can be > plundered for their amusement? I don't see that any plundering need be involved at all: Partridge described <mugwump> as fully naturalized in Britain in the second (1938) edition of his dictionary of slang. (I'm taking Mencken's word for this.)
In any case, writers of fantasy routinely raid all sorts of mythologies and folklore. Frankly, I see no harm in it whatsoever, though I prefer to see it done well.
Brian
Dik T. Winter - 20 Jan 2004 02:49 GMT > > No Harry Potter fan here? JK Rowlings (a British writer) bestows > > the title of "Supreme Mugwump" on the Gandalf-like character [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > cultures as "cute" repositories of "quaint" customs and lore that can be > plundered for their amusement? In that case why did they not change *that* part of the book when it was translated to American? (And yes, to be sure, there are quite a few differences between the English and American version. The most egregious is when the new schoolchildren are introduced at the school in vol. 1. In the American version one of the boys is explicitly introduced as being black, something that does not happen in the English version. BTW, that made the count of children wrong at some place in the American version.)
However, about Mugwump, the page at: <http://www.quinion.com/words/weirdwords/ww-mug1.htm> is very revealing.
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James - 22 Jan 2004 14:20 GMT > However, about Mugwump, the page at: > <http://www.quinion.com/words/weirdwords/ww-mug1.htm> > is very revealing. The rather middling Bradford-based group Terrorvision recorded a track on the album "Regular Urban Survivor" entitled Mugwump. Think that was ca. 1994. Not sure what's become of them - tours of Eastern Europe?
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