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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2004The Royal and Episcopal plural.
When executing formal documents, the UK queen writes in the plural "We, Elizabeth the Second, Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland..." Church of England Bishops and Archdeacons do a similar thing: "By the Tenor of these Presents, WE, GORDON, by Divine Permission Bishop of Southwell, do make it known unto all men, that on Sunday the twentieth day of September in the year of our Lord, one thousand nine hundred and sixty-four, We, the Bishop before mentioned, solemnly administering Holy Orders, under the protection of the Almighty, in our Cathedral Church of Saint Mary the Virgin Southwell did admit our beloved in Christ, XXXX XXXXX Master of Arts of Pembroke College in the University of Cambridge (of whose virtuous and pious life and conversation, and competent learning and knowledge in the Holy Scriptures, We were well assured) into the Holy Order of Priests..." In a Notice of Excommunication, 1744, the Archdeacon used the plural form. "We, the Archdeacon...You shall certify to our Official, ...Our Surrogate" Perhaps someone can say why this "formal plural" has developed and if it is used in other countries and by other dignitaries. -- Alasdair Baxter, Nottingham, UK.Tel +44 115 9705100; Fax +44 115 9423263 "It's not what you say that matters but how you say it. It's not what you do that matters but how you do it" > Perhaps someone can say why this "formal plural" has developed and > if it is used in other countries and by other dignitaries. I thought it came from the Pope saying "We" when he meant "God and I". -- Mike Hardy >When executing formal documents, the UK queen writes in the plural >"We, Elizabeth the Second, Queen of the United Kingdom of Great [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >Perhaps someone can say why this "formal plural" has developed and if >it is used in other countries and by other dignitaries. At a very wild guess, because the person writing it is speaking not in a personal capacity, but as the holder of an office, and the "we" therefore means "I, and my predecessors and successors in office".  SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > At a very wild guess, because the person writing it is speaking not in a > personal capacity, but as the holder of an office, and the "we" therefore > means "I, and my predecessors and successors in office". Not only does this sounds plausible to me, but it could equally well apply to the use of the editorial "we". SignatureAlec McKenzie mckenzie@despammed.com >> When executing formal documents, the UK queen writes in the plural >> "We, Elizabeth the Second, Queen of the United Kingdom of Great [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > in a personal capacity, but as the holder of an office, and the "we" > therefore means "I, and my predecessors and successors in office". 'We are a grandmother'? -- John Dean Oxford De-frag to reply john-dean@frag.lineone.net spake thus: > >> When executing formal documents, the UK queen writes in the plural > >> "We, Elizabeth the Second, Queen of the United Kingdom of Great [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > 'We are a grandmother'? I'd have thought you-all were more likely grandfathers. SignatureDavid ===== > When executing formal documents, the UK queen writes in the plural > "We, Elizabeth the Second, Queen of the United Kingdom of Great [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Perhaps someone can say why this "formal plural" has developed and if > it is used in other countries and by other dignitaries. The theory is that it was at the division of Rome. Each emperor spoke on behalf of Rome, and thus the other emperor. The Latin _nos_ dates from there, and other European languages did as they did in Rome. See something I have written on it here: <http://shughes.online.no/stuff/older/octoberstuff.html#231002_01_06> I think that's the second time I have pointed to that in the last six months. If it isn't in the FAQ already, perhaps it should be. SignatureSimon R. Hughes >> When executing formal documents, the UK queen writes in the plural >> "We, Elizabeth the Second, Queen of the United Kingdom of Great [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >> in the Holy Scriptures, We were well assured) into the Holy Order of >> Priests..." Why do bishops write like notaries? Discuss. -- Ross Howard >>> When executing formal documents, the UK queen writes in the plural >>> "We, Elizabeth the Second, Queen of the United Kingdom of Great [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >Why do bishops write like notaries? They employ notaries to draw up such documents for them. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk ... >See something I have written on it here: ><http://shughes.online.no/stuff/older/octoberstuff.html#231002_01_06> ... Is this the correct link? I tried it a twice about three hours apart, and got an error message: "The page cannot be displayed. ... Cannot find server or DNS Error." Thanks. SignatureMike Bandy > ... > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Is this the correct link? It should work as well as the direct link below. > I tried it a twice about three hours apart, > and got an error message: "The page cannot be displayed. ... Cannot > find server or DNS Error." Thanks. Try this: <http://home.online.no/~shughes/stuff/older/octoberstuff.html#231002_01_06> SignatureSimon R. Hughes << [Simon R. Hughes] See something I have written on it here: <http://shughes.online.no/stuff/older/octoberstuff.html#231002_01_06> [end quote] >> << [Mike Bandy] Is this the correct link? I tried it a twice about three hours apart, and got an error message: "The page cannot be displayed. ... Cannot find server or DNS Error." Thanks. [end quote] >> << [Simon R. Hughes] It should work as well as the direct link below. Try this: <http://home.online.no/~shughes/stuff/older/octoberstuff.html#231002_01_06> [end quote] >> From here the second link works, the first does not. -- --------------------------------------------- Richard Maurer To reply, remove half Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ... >Try this: > ><http://home.online.no/~shughes/stuff/older/octoberstuff.html#231002_01_06> Good stuff. That link worked for me. Thanks. SignatureMike Bandy >Perhaps someone can say why this "formal plural" has developed and if >it is used in other countries and by other dignitaries. Japanese contains (at least one) of the type you describe ("warera"), and AFAIK the practice was not borrowed from English or any Western language. -Chris >When executing formal documents, the UK queen writes in the plural >"We, Elizabeth the Second, Queen of the United Kingdom of Great >Britain and Northern Ireland..." > >Church of England Bishops and Archdeacons do a similar thing: Also the Earl Marshal, Garter King of Arms, and the Lord Chancellor, when executing formal Warrants and Writs. SignatureDon Aitken Mail to the addresses given in the headers is no longer being read. To mail me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com". In alt.usage.english Don Aitken <don-aitken@freeuk.com> wrote: > Also the Earl Marshal, Garter King of Arms, and the Lord Chancellor, > when executing formal Warrants and Writs. And writers of Constitutions. after which they may take a constitutional. On Fri, 16 Jan 2004, in alt.usage.english, Alasdair Baxter <llb@london.com> writes >When executing formal documents, the UK queen writes in the plural >"We, Elizabeth the Second, Queen of the United Kingdom of Great >Britain and Northern Ireland..." <snip> >Perhaps someone can say why this "formal plural" has developed and if >it is used in other countries and by other dignitaries. I was under the impression that, for the Queen, it means "The people of my country". >-- > >Alasdair Baxter, Nottingham, UK.Tel +44 115 9705100; Fax +44 115 9423263 Your sig separator is incomplete - you should add a space after the "--" SignatureMark Browne If replying by email, please use the "Reply-To" address, as the "From" address will be rejected It's a usage I've heard a bit on amateur radio and (gasp) CB radio (moreso); mostly by newbies. > It's a usage I've heard a bit on amateur radio and (gasp) CB radio > (moreso); mostly by newbies. What's a "moreso"? SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) www.geocities.com/opus731/ >>It's a usage I've heard a bit on amateur radio and (gasp) CB radio >>(moreso); mostly by newbies. > > What's a "moreso"? It looks to be a typo for "more so." "Moresco" is somewhat less likely. SignatureMartin Ambuhl >>> It's a usage I've heard a bit on amateur radio and (gasp) CB radio >>> (moreso); mostly by newbies. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > It looks to be a typo for "more so." "Moresco" is somewhat less > likely. Maybe it's a typo, but I've seen it from Rightpondeans before -- that's why I asked. SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) www.geocities.com/opus731/ >>>> It's a usage I've heard a bit on amateur radio and (gasp) CB radio >>>> (moreso); mostly by newbies. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Maybe it's a typo, but I've seen it from Rightpondeans before -- that's why >I asked. I've seen "alot" a lot -- is that a typo or established usage. I saw my first "abit" a few days ago -- think it will fly? SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > >>>> It's a usage I've heard a bit on amateur radio and (gasp) CB radio > >>>> (moreso); mostly by newbies. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > I saw my first "abit" a few days ago -- think it will fly? Not abit! ... >I've seen "alot" a lot -- is that a typo or established usage. We've seen it way too often to be a typo. Your question prompted me to see whether I could find it in a dictionary. Onelook.com gave six results. Three of them were acronyms, and the others warned that it's not a word. Macquarie Dictionary (http://snipurl.com/sAlot) said it's "a common spelling error, but also used deliberately as a `cool' spelling." I also enjoyed what *The UVic Writer's Guide* said: QUOTE from http://web.uvic.ca/wguide/Pages/UsAlot.html A lot means "a lot": "A lot of pancakes." Note that this is an informal expression. Allot means "to divide" or "to give out": "They allotted six square feet per family." Alot means nothing, and therefore is not to be used under any circumstances. END QUOTE >I saw my first "abit" a few days ago -- think it will fly? I liked Donna's answer: "Not abit!" SignatureMike Bandy >> It's a usage I've heard a bit on amateur radio and (gasp) CB radio >> (moreso); mostly by newbies. > >What's a "moreso"? A type-o? SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk "Skitt" <skitt99@comcast.net> wrote... > > It's a usage I've heard a bit on amateur radio and (gasp) CB radio > > (moreso); mostly by newbies. > > What's a "moreso"? Another coming word, you old stick-in-the-mud. Matti > "Skitt" <skitt99@comcast.net> wrote... > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Another coming word Does this relate to jouissance? SignatureRob Bannister "Robert Bannister" <robban@it.net.au> wrote... > > "Skitt" <skitt99@comcast.net> wrote... > >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Does this relate to jouissance? It's an error of commission, not emission. Matti -- no ex-spurt > When executing formal documents, the UK queen writes in the plural > "We, Elizabeth the Second, Queen of the United Kingdom of Great [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > it is used in other countries and by other dignitaries. > -- I operate a one-man specialist electrical engineering consultancy (company name Chambers Metercare), and on my webpage ( www.metercare.co.uk ) use the Episcopal plural in two places. "We have also performed calculations for Kot Addu and Hub River Power Stations in Pakistan ...." "We have recently completed a contract for the ...". I have thought about this many times, but still do not know quite why I do this. It might be a combination of "ideas above my station" and a "sense of insecurity" at proclaiming to the world that I am just one man working alone. The use of "I" sounds egotistical to me, yet some people might say that using the episcopal "we" is even worse. I am puzzled, but the use of "I" just does not sound right when I am talking about the one-man company Chambers Metercare. What would your advice be? I have an exit strategy for use if anybody challenges me on this point. I shall claim that "we" means me and my wife. However, the truth is that the only direct action my wife takes in the company is to occasionally ask me whether I have received any new orders, and to helpfully tell me from time to time to tidy up my office, there are visitors coming. Richard Chambers Leeds UK. richard.chambers7@NOSPAMntlworld.com spake thus: > I have thought about this many times, but still do not know quite why I do > this. It might be a combination of "ideas above my station" and a "sense of [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > whether I have received any new orders, and to helpfully tell me from time > to time to tidy up my office, there are visitors coming. I trust you pay her well for these duties. OK, not too well, but not quite enough to pay NI? SignatureDavid ===== >richard.chambers7@NOSPAMntlworld.com spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >I trust you pay her well for these duties. OK, not too well, but not >quite enough to pay NI? I once had a friend who was in business on his own under a name such as XYZ Associates. After some questioning he finally said that he and his computer were associates. SignaturePeter Duncanson UK (posting from a.e.u) >>richard.chambers7@NOSPAMntlworld.com spake thus: >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >Associates. After some questioning he finally said that he and his computer >were associates. That's exactly what my computer and I were from 1993 to 1995 - Robin Bignall Associates - according to our business card. We actually got a few day's work, too! Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England On 18 Jan 2004, Dr Robin Bignall wrote >>> richard.chambers7@NOSPAMntlworld.com spake thus: >>>> I have thought about this many times, but still do not know >>>> quite why I do this. It might be a combination of "ideas above [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >>>> "I" just does not sound right when I am talking about the >>>> one-man company Chambers Metercare. What would your advice be? -snip- >> I once had a friend who was in business on his own under a name >> such as XYZ Associates. After some questioning he finally said >> that he and his computer were associates. > That's exactly what my computer and I were from 1993 to 1995 - > Robin Bignall Associates - according to our business card. We > actually got a few day's work, too! I wonder if the use of "we" for a one-man company depends on the name of the company. After having been a "sole-trading professional" for 18 years, I recently became a limited company -- it's still just me (with my wife as Company Secretary), but now trading as "W H H Van Sickle Ltd". (A tax thing, of course.) I don't think I'd use "we" when referring to the company, but only because it's an "personal name + Ltd". I'm not certain, but if I'd named it "Topographical Research Ltd" I might tend to refer to the company as "we". SignatureCheers, Harvey Ottawa/Toronto/Edmonton for 30 years; Southern England for the past 21 years. (for e-mail, change harvey to whhvs) >I operate a one-man specialist electrical engineering consultancy (company >name Chambers Metercare), and on my webpage ( www.metercare.co.uk ) use the >Episcopal plural in two places. In this case it is neither the Episcopal nor the Royal plural but the Commercial Plural. Many organisations use the expression "& Co" even if it is a sole trader. In the UK it is quite common among professional practices such as lawyers and accountants. -- Alasdair Baxter, Nottingham, UK.Tel +44 115 9705100; Fax +44 115 9423263 "It's not what you say that matters but how you say it. It's not what you do that matters but how you do it" |
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