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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2004Lip service
I'm looking for a word that describes words or phrases uttered purely to conform to some convention. eg Someone goes off to a job interview and you wish them good luck, even though you don't really know what, precisely, luck is, apart, in this context, to well wishing. Someone says merry christmas to you and you say merry christmas back, even though you think the whole thing is intellectually dubious, but believe that that's what convention demands. Someone says "how are you" and you respond "fine" regardless of your condition. I'm sure there's a word or phrase for this (apart from social hypocrisy, cant or something else equally pejorative), but I can't think what it is. Berko60 > I'm looking for a word that describes words or phrases uttered > purely to conform to some convention. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > hypocrisy, cant or something else equally pejorative), but I can't > think what it is. "Formulaic".  SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Your claim might have more 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |credibility if you hadn't mispelled Palo Alto, CA 94304 |"inteligent" kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > I'm looking for a word that describes words or phrases uttered purely > to conform to some convention. > [snip] > I'm sure there's a word or phrase for this (apart from social > hypocrisy, cant or something else equally pejorative), but I can't > think what it is. A branch of linguistics likes to discuss how the "locution" does not necessarily match the "illocutionary force." In other words, the guy who answers, "Fine" is not a liar if what he meant was to be polite and everybody knows he meant that and he knows it's what everybody expects, and ....... SignatureWes Groleau Lip service: what occurs under the sign, "Kisses--One Dollar" > I'm looking for a word that describes words or phrases uttered purely > to conform to some convention. platitude; pleasantry Adrian In alt.english.usage on 17 Jan 2004 17:18:58 -0800 berko60@hotmail.com (David Berkeley) posted: >I'm looking for a word that describes words or phrases uttered purely >to conform to some convention. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >hypocrisy, cant or something else equally pejorative), but I can't >think what it is. Social convention(s). You're right that it's not lip service. It's similar but lip service relates to more important things, or something like that. >Berko60 s/ meirman If you are emailing me please say if you are posting the same response. Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years Indianapolis, 7 years Chicago, 6 years Brooklyn NY 12 years Baltimore 20 years > I'm looking for a word that describes words or phrases uttered purely > to conform to some convention. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > hypocrisy, cant or something else equally pejorative), but I can't > think what it is. Phatic communication. From M-W: Main Entry: phat·ic Pronunciation: 'fa-tik Function: adjective Etymology: Greek phatos, verbal of phanai to speak Date: 1923 : of, relating to, or being speech used for social or emotive purposes rather than for communicating information - phat·I·cal·ly /-ti-k(&-)lE/ adverb Gary >> I'm looking for a word that describes words or phrases uttered purely >> to conform to some convention. ... >> I'm sure there's a word or phrase for this (apart from social >> hypocrisy, cant or something else equally pejorative), but I can't [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >rather than for communicating information >- phat·I·cal·ly /-ti-k(&-)lE/ adverb That's interesting. "Phatic" is new to me. The OPs idea of "cant" is pretty good, too. Here's a definition of "cant" from W3NID: "... the expression or repetition of conventional, trite, or unconsidered ideas, opinions, or sentiments; especially: the insincere use of pious phraseology" SignatureMike Bandy > >> I'm looking for a word that describes words or phrases uttered purely > >> to conform to some convention. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > unconsidered ideas, opinions, or sentiments; especially: the insincere > use of pious phraseology" "Cant" imputes hypocrisy to the speaker of the words, and is appropriate where there is hypocrisy. The speaker recognizes that his words are in fact meaningless, but he knows, cynically, that his hearers will believe and be influenced by them. Phatic communication is "have a nice day"---the situation calls for some words, but there is nothing to say that is appropriate to the relationship between speaker and hearer. So the speaker says something that is recognized as meaningless by both him and the hearer. Gary >> >> I'm looking for a word that describes words or phrases uttered >> >> purely to conform to some convention. [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > for some words, but there is nothing to say that is appropriate to > the relationship between speaker and hearer. Phatic statements are carefully chosen to be appropriate both to the relationship between speaker and hearer, and to the situation they are in. > So the speaker says > something that is recognized as meaningless by both him and the > hearer. But phatic statements are far from meaningless. They just don't mean what a literal reading would indicate. SignatureMike Nitabach >That's interesting. "Phatic" is new to me. I first met it in C S Lewis's novel That Hideous Strength. "The cardinal difficulty, " said MacPhee, "in collaboration between the sexes is that women speak a language without nouns. If two men are doing a bit of [house-]work one will say to the other, 'Put this bowl inside the bigger bowl which you'll find on the top shelf of the green cupboard.' The female for this is, 'Put that in the other one in there.' There is consequently a phatic hiatus." Stuck in my mind ever since. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove number to reply >> That's interesting. "Phatic" is new to me. > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Stuck in my mind ever since. And the most recent OED cite has << 1977 Time 21 Mar. 67/1 Many Western ears will find it hard to tell whether Merwin is being vatic or phatic. >> which will stick in my mind, containing as it does two words I am reading for the first time in my life. -- John 'temporarily latic' Dean Oxford De-frag to reply >>> That's interesting. "Phatic" is new to me. >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >will stick in my mind, containing as it does two words I am reading for the >first time in my life. Me, too. Two interesting words. Nice day, isn't it? I am sure it'll be nice tomorrow, too. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin 'lunatic' Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England >>>> That's interesting. "Phatic" is new to me. >>> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Me, too. Two interesting words. Nice day, isn't it? I am sure > it'll be nice tomorrow, too. It should be downright phat. SignatureMike Nitabach > > >> I'm looking for a word that describes words or phrases uttered purely [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > That's interesting. "Phatic" is new to me. ... Samuel Marchbanks (Robertson Davies' alter ego) discussed it in his diary or his table talk, I think, and warned that if you use too much phatic communication, you may be considered a phathead. SignatureJerry Friedman >>>> I'm looking for a word that describes words or phrases uttered >>>> purely [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > diary or his table talk, I think, and warned that if you use too much > phatic communication, you may be considered a phathead. ...he said, emphatically. SignatureJack Gavin >> I'm looking for a word that describes words or phrases uttered purely >> to conform to some convention. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> hypocrisy, cant or something else equally pejorative), but I can't >> think what it is. "Courtesy"? Mike SignatureM.J.Powell << [Gary Vellenzer] Phatic communication. From M-W: Main Entry: phat·ic Pronunciation: 'fa-tik Function: adjective Etymology: Greek phatos, verbal of phanai to speak Date: 1923 : of, relating to, or being speech used for social or emotive purposes rather than for communicating information - phat·I·cal·ly /-ti-k(&-)lE/ adverb [end quote] >> For those that know their Greek: is there any connection between phatic and emphatic or emphasis? Are they false friends or true friends? My AmHer1(1969) says the last two are derived from Gk. emphatikos, exhibited; and Gk. emphainen, to exhibit, indicate : en + phainein, to show. -- --------------------------------------------- Richard Maurer To reply, remove half Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > << [Gary Vellenzer] > Phatic communication. From M-W: [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > derived from Gk. emphatikos, exhibited; > and Gk. emphainen, to exhibit, indicate : en + phainein, to show. Two different Greek verbs. Phatic is from phemi(I say)/phanai(to say); phaino = appear to be is another verb altogether. There is no etymological relationship between the two Greek verbs. The "a" in the forms derived from phaino is a reduced syllabic "n". The "a" in the forms derived from phanai is just an 'a'. Gary > For those that know their Greek: is there any connection > between phatic and emphatic or emphasis? > Are they false friends or true friends? > My AmHer1(1969) says the last two are > derived from Gk. emphatikos, exhibited; > and Gk. emphainen, to exhibit, indicate : en + phainein, to show. Emphasis/emphatic comes from the family (Gk) emphatikos < emphainein (to show) < em- + phainein (to show), the same family of words as the Greek /phasis/ (an appearance). Whether this is from the "show" (cause to appear) branch or the "appear" branch is not universally agreed. The verb forms of each branch all begin /phain-/, but the /em-/ forms tend to be /emphan-/. Phatic comes from the adjectival form of /phemi/, /phatos/ (said, spoken) or /phatikos/ (assertory). SignatureMartin Ambuhl |
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