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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2009What do they refer to?
Hello! I need your help making out what ***that trend*** and ***the effect*** refer to. As to ***that trend**, I suppose that, because of "that", not "this", ***that trend *** refers to "decrease in over all ocean productivity" rather than "the fact that the oceans are currently warming at about 0.2C per decade". Concerning ***the effect***, I think it refers to "less mixing with nutrient-rich water below". ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- They report that in tropical and sub-tropical regions with an average surface temperature of 15C, plant production closely matched temperature changes. "This clearly showed that overall ocean productivity decreases when the climate warms," said Professor Behrenfeld. The oceans are currently warming at about 0.2C per decade on average and scientists expect ***that trend*** to accelerate. The drop in production occurs because rising surface temperatures result in less mixing with nutrient-rich water below. The hot water on top is lighter and essentially floats on the colder water below. This already occurs in tropical and sub-tropical regions, but the satellite data show that ***the effect*** is intensifying as the surface gets hotter. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thank you in advance. LP > Hello! I need your help making out what ***that trend*** and ***the > effect*** refer to. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > The oceans are currently warming at about 0.2C per decade on average > and scientists expect ***that trend*** to accelerate. The trend is the warming of the oceans. > The drop in production occurs because rising surface temperatures > result in less mixing with nutrient-rich water below. The hot water on > top is lighter and essentially floats on the colder water below. This > already occurs in tropical and sub-tropical regions, but the satellite > data show that ***the effect*** is intensifying as the surface gets > hotter. The effect is the temperature stratification of the water.  SignatureJohn Varela Trade OLD lamps for NEW for email >Hello! I need your help making out what ***that trend*** and ***the >effect*** refer to. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >rather than "the fact that the oceans are currently warming at about >0.2C per decade". I read it the other way! >Concerning ***the effect***, I think it refers to "less mixing with >nutrient-rich water below". I agree. >----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >The oceans are currently warming at about 0.2C per decade on average >and scientists expect ***that trend*** to accelerate. It is reasonable to assume that "that trend" refers to the trend mentioned in the same sentence. I don't really like the way the sentence is worded. I think the meaning is: The oceans are currently warming at about 0.2C per decade on average and scientists expect that rate to increase. 0r the same meaning, but different wording: The oceans are currently warming at about 0.2C per decade on average and scientists expect that warming to accelerate. >The drop in production occurs because rising surface temperatures >result in less mixing with nutrient-rich water below. The hot water on >top is lighter and essentially floats on the colder water below. This >already occurs in tropical and sub-tropical regions, but the satellite >data show that ***the effect*** is intensifying as the surface gets >hotter. I think that "the effect" refers to the same as "This" at the beginning of the sentence which in turn refers to what has been described in the previous two sentence: the reduction in mixing. >--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Thank you in advance. > >LP SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.english.usage) Thanks a lot everyone. I just wonder if "the effect" could refer to "the drop in production", which results from the reduction in mixing. > >The drop in production occurs because rising surface temperatures > >result in less mixing with nutrient-rich water below. The hot water on [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >The drop in production occurs because rising surface temperatures > > >result in less mixing with nutrient-rich water below. The hot water on [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > sentence which in turn refers to what has been described in the previous two > > sentence: the reduction in mixing. Thanks a lot everyone. I just wonder if "the effect" could refer to "the drop in production", which results from the reduction in mixing. Or, isn't it possible to read that the subject "This" and " the effect" both refers to "the drop in production"? LP >> > >The drop in production occurs because rising surface temperatures >> > >result in less mixing with nutrient-rich water below. The hot water on [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >Or, isn't it possible to read that the subject "This" and " the >effect" both refers to "the drop in production"? My wording was incomplete. I'll try again. I think that "the effect" refers to the same as "This" at the beginning of the sentence which in turn refers to what has been described in the previous two sentences: a drop in production resulting from the reduction in mixing (which results from the rise in ocean temperature). I don't think it is possible to be more specific than that because the author was not specific. Another example of the lack of clarity in the piece is in the words "The oceans are currently warming at about 0.2C per decade on average". That could refer to the temperature in the upper layer of the oven (near the surface), or it could refer to the average temperature of the complete body of water from top to bottom. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.english.usage) >Thanks a lot everyone. I just wonder if "the effect" could refer to >"the drop in production", which results from the reduction in mixing. No. Satellite data could not at this time show a drop in production. They can measure surface temperature from a satellite, and thus they can easily show that it's getting warmer. I doubt they can tell the termperature far below the surface with a satellite, but they probably measure that occasionally in other ways, and if it is not changing, or changing very little, less frequent measurements are probably considered sufficient. More importantly, a phrase like this, that, or the effect should refer to something very close to its use, like the preceding phrase or clause if there is one, or the preceding sentence. If one wants to refer to something futher back, he should be explicit and say "the drop in production". This is also why people disagreed with you about "that trend". Not sure about this but here goes: The difference between this trend and that trend is not likely to be how far away it is in the paragraph, but IMO whether the author wants to endorse it or not. The authore says *sicentists" expect that trend to continue. It's their trend. If the author thought there was such a trend and want to say so publicly, he might have called it "this trend". >> >The drop in production occurs because rising surface temperatures >> >result in less mixing with nutrient-rich water below. The hot water on [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> >> >--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SignaturePosters should say where they live, and for which area they are asking questions. I have lived in Western Pa. 10 years Indianapolis 10 years Chicago 6 years Brooklyn, NY 12 years Baltimore 26 years I have thought that the difference between "this" and "that" was the physical difference between the determiners and the words they refer to, thus this should refer to some expressions closer than something "that" refers to. If I can call it physical difference, there seems to be a kind of psychological difference as you have said, which is quite a revealing comment. > Not sure about this but here goes: The difference between this trend > and that trend is not likely to be how far away it is in the > paragraph, but IMO whether the author wants to endorse it or not. The > authore says *sicentists" expect that trend to continue. It's their > trend. If the author thought there was such a trend and want to say > so publicly, he might have called it "this trend". I really appreciate your comment. LP |
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