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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2009Wicked grammar
While listening to the soundtrack to the musical "Wicked" I came across two lines that made me question the grammar. I realize that lyricists sometimes tinker with grammar to make the meter and rhyme work, but it's not clear whether these are correct or not. 1. "It seems so unfair -- we should go on a spree and not she." ("Dancing through life") Is "she" correct, or should it be "her"? 2. "Whenever I see someone less fortunate than I my tender heart tends to start to bleed". ("Popular") Is "I" correct, or should it be "me"? I guess if there is an implied "am" after I, then I would be correct. "...less fortunate than I am...". > While listening to the soundtrack to the musical "Wicked" I came across two > lines that made me question the grammar. I realize that lyricists sometimes [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > 1. "It seems so unfair -- we should go on a spree and not she." ("Dancing > through life") Is "she" correct, or should it be "her"? If the contrast is between "we should go on a spree" and "she should go on a spree" then "she" is clearly correct. If the contrast is between "we should go on a spree" and "we should go on her" then "her" is clearly correct. Which do you think more likely? > 2. "Whenever I see someone less fortunate than I my tender heart tends to start > to bleed". ("Popular") Is "I" correct, or should it be "me"? I guess if there > is an implied "am" after I, then I would be correct. "...less fortunate than I > am...". "I" is obviously correct; "me" is widely accepted. As for the missing "am", look up "ellipsis" in your dictionary. >> While listening to the soundtrack to the musical "Wicked" I came across two >> lines that made me question the grammar. I realize that lyricists sometimes [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > If the contrast is between "we should go on a spree" and "she should go > on a spree" then "she" is clearly correct. Well yes, and that's what I'd write, but I'd add, echoing what you say later, "her" is widely accepted. > If the contrast is between "we should go on a spree" and "we should go > on her" then "her" is clearly correct. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > "I" is obviously correct; "me" is widely accepted. As for the missing > "am", look up "ellipsis" in your dictionary.  Signatureathel >>> While listening to the soundtrack to the musical "Wicked" I came across two >>> lines that made me question the grammar. I realize that lyricists [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> If the contrast is between "we should go on a spree" and "she should go >> on a spree" then "she" is clearly correct. > Well yes, and that's what I'd write, but I'd add, echoing what you say > later, "her" is widely accepted. Widely used, but widely accepted? With best wishes, Peter. SignaturePeter Young, (BrE), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004. (US equivalent: Attending Anesthesiologist) Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired. > >>> While listening to the soundtrack to the musical "Wicked" I came across two > >>> lines that made me question the grammar. I realize that lyricists [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Widely used, but widely accepted? Not by me, and I'm fairly wide. Bill ---------------------------------------------------------------- Reverse parts of the user name and ISP name for my e-address >>>>> While listening to the soundtrack to the musical "Wicked" I came across two >>>>> lines that made me question the grammar. I realize that lyricists [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Not by me, and I'm fairly wide. I'm surprised. If "me" is widely accepted in the second example, then why should "her" in the first not be? Of course, "me" in this sort of context is very common, and "her" isn't, but I don't see why that should make difference. Signatureathel >>>> While listening to the soundtrack to the musical "Wicked" I came across two >>>> lines that made me question the grammar. I realize that lyricists [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >Widely used, but widely accepted? It is presumably accepted by its users, so if it is widely used it is widely accepted. It rather depends on what "widely" means. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.english.usage) >>>>> While listening to the soundtrack to the musical "Wicked" I came across two >>>>> lines that made me question the grammar. I realize that lyricists [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > It rather depends on what "widely" means. English teacher to wife: Who was that on the phone? It's her again. You mean it was she again. T. >>>>>> While listening to the soundtrack to the musical "Wicked" I came >>>>>> across two [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > T. "She" is subjective, "her" is objective. > "Tom P" > > English teacher to wife: > > Who was that on the phone? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > "She" is subjective, "her" is objective. Right. And "she" in the fourth line is properly subjective because it's the predicate nominative and agrees in case with the subject. Not that anyone cares much anymore. SignatureBob Lieblich Keeping it simple >> "Tom P" > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Not that anyone cares much anymore. Without a doubt you must be correct, but my HS English wasn't that "wicked." (Either my HS English was not that complicated, or I wasn't paying attention.) But you're not "Keeping it simple". Simple rules for simple folks. `[;-)< > Right. And "she" in the fourth line is properly subjective because > it's the predicate nominative and agrees in case with the subject. My Lord: twenty posts before someone mentioned the word "case". Is this what we have come to? That the barest rudiments of the mother tongue require 20+ messages of discussion? > Not that anyone cares much anymore. So it seems. . . . Simple rules? Subjects are in the subjective; objects are in the objective; "be" is a copulative verb. Can it get simpler? [ ... ] > Simple rules? Subjects are in the subjective; objects are in the > objective; "be" is a copulative verb. Hey, there's no need to talk dirty. > Can it get simpler? I can. I'm just about as simple as you can get. SignatureBob Lieblich Welcome back, O Sage of Owlcroft "Eric Walker" <email@owlcroft.com> wrote : > Simple rules? > Subjects are in the subjective; > objects are in the objective; "be" is a copulative verb. > Can it get simpler? I suspect you've completely missed the point of these discussions; has it never crossed your mind that what may be simple to you, may be quite new and difficult for someone else? I thought not! SignatureAndrew http://www.wordskit.com/ http://www.flayme.com/ "If A is success in life, then A = x + y + z. Work is x; y is play; and z is keeping your mouth shut." ~ Albert Einstein > > 2. "Whenever I see someone less fortunate than I my tender heart tends to > > start [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > "I" is obviously correct; "me" is widely accepted. It's not obvious to me. Would you say: "She is less fortunate than I." "She weighs less than I." "Bill Gates is richer than I." "I see someone less fortunate than I." > As for the missing "am", look up "ellipsis" in your dictionary. What is your point? I believe I correctly used ellipses to denote missing parts of the sentence so that I could focus on the important part. >>> 2. "Whenever I see someone less fortunate than I my tender heart tends to >>> start [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > "Bill Gates is richer than I." > "I see someone less fortunate than I." Yes, obviously. >> As for the missing "am", look up "ellipsis" in your dictionary. > > What is your point? I believe I correctly used ellipses to denote missing > parts of the sentence so that I could focus on the important part. You obviously don't understand what an alliptic construction is. Now go to your dictionary. > > > 2. "Whenever I see someone less fortunate than I my tender heart tends to > > > start [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > What is your point? I believe I correctly used ellipses to denote missing > parts of the sentence so that I could focus on the important part. If you know more about it than the native speakers here, why are you asking the question? SignatureJohn Varela Trade OLD lamps for NEW for email "C. Sowash" <csowash@nospamComcast.net> wrote... > 1. "It seems so unfair -- we should go on a spree and not she." ("Dancing > through life") Is "she" correct, or should it be "her"? 'She' is better - though you'd rarely hear it in normal conversation. Either is fine for the song. > 2. "Whenever I see someone less fortunate than I, my tender heart tends to > start [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > than I > am...". I've added a comma to the quote; I agree that 'am' is implied, making it correct as is. Clever lyricist! (who?). SignatureAndrew http://www.wordskit.com/ http://www.flayme.com/ "If A is success in life, then A = x + y + z. Work is x; y is play; and z is keeping your mouth shut." ~ Albert Einstein > > 2. "Whenever I see someone less fortunate than I, my tender heart tends to > > start [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I've added a comma to the quote; I agree that 'am' is implied, making it > correct as is. Would you say: "I see someone less fortunate than I." "I see someone who is thinner than I." "Bill Gates is richer than I." If you assume an implied "am" then these would be correct, but I don't think anyone would write them that way. Here is another line from the song: "Whenever I see someone less fortunate than I, and let's face it, who isn't less fortunate than I?" > Clever lyricist! (who?). Stephen Schwartz: http://www.musicalschwartz.com/schwartz.htm >>> 2. "Whenever I see someone less fortunate than I, my tender heart tends to >>> start [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > "I see someone who is thinner than I." > "Bill Gates is richer than I." Of course. > If you assume an implied "am" then these would be correct, but I don't think > anyone would write them that way. And you _still_ haven't looked up "ellipsis" in your dictionary, have you? >>>> 2. "Whenever I see someone less fortunate than I, my tender heart >>>> tends to [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > And you _still_ haven't looked up "ellipsis" in your dictionary, have you? Isn't this kind of elliptical usage discouraged/illegal in English? I personally accept it only in Latin (where one routinely omits the 'est' etc.). I personally would never use it English, and consider said use to be illiterate. But then, I come from a prescriptive language background. :) SignatureYou'd be crazy to e-mail me with the crazy. But leave the div alone. > Isn't this kind of elliptical usage discouraged/illegal in English? > I personally accept it only in Latin (where one routinely omits the > 'est' etc.). I personally would never use it English, and consider said > use to be illiterate. But then, I come from a prescriptive language > background. :) No, it is not discouraged or illegal in English. I would consider anyone to believe that to be linguistically challenged. But my prescriptive background does not include such bogus rules as "This kind of elliptical usage is discouraged or illegal in English". Whoever teaches such stupidity is illiterate. >> Isn't this kind of elliptical usage discouraged/illegal in >> English? I personally accept it only in Latin (where one routinely [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > of elliptical usage is discouraged or illegal in English". Whoever > teaches such stupidity is illiterate. I don't know who (if anybody) teaches that; I was just asking. In any event, "someone less fortunate than I" sounds wrong to me and I won't be using it. And maybe I wasn't clear - my prescriptive background is from my native language, not English. SignatureYou'd be crazy to e-mail me with the crazy. But leave the div alone. "C. Sowash" <csowash@nospamComcast.net> wrote> Would you say: > Here is another line from the song: > "Whenever I see someone less fortunate than I, > and let's face it, who isn't less fortunate than I?" Context is all; in the first line, I'd be happy with 'I' - but for the second line, I'd go for 'me'. But I don't think these things are carved in stone; you have make judgements. SignatureAndrew http://www.wordskit.com/ http://www.flayme.com/ "If A is success in life, then A = x + y + z. Work is x; y is play; and z is keeping your mouth shut." ~ Albert Einstein > While listening to the soundtrack to the musical "Wicked" I came across two > lines that made me question the grammar. I realize that lyricists sometimes [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > is an implied "am" after I, then I would be correct. "...less fortunate than I > am...". By old-fashioned standards, heavily influenced by Latin grammar, both are correct. I believe that both are wrong, idiomatically, in that they would rarely, if ever, be said by a native speaker. Fowler,as ever, agrees with me: "...the prepositional use of 'than' is now so common colloquially... that the bare subjective pronoun in such a position strikes the reader as pedantic...". (Fowler, revised Gowers, 1966) But, partly because they carry all this baggage, I rather like both as lyrics for a song. L |
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