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Two place names

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Alan O'Brien - 23 Jan 2004 10:52 GMT
I know that pronunciation place names is hard to talk about in a text only
group, but I was looking for some help about two place names.

The first is that beautiful town in Holland called Scheveningen; throughout
my life I have pronounced it almost as if it were an English word:

she - ven - ing -en, with the stress on 'ing', or sometimes 'ven'. I now
suspect that this is totally incorrect.

The second is more straightforward - it's Detroit. I think this city was
originally 'le Detroit' which made me think that French speakers may have a
totally different pronunciation of the name that English speakers. Do they?

Alan
John Dean - 23 Jan 2004 15:32 GMT
> The second is more straightforward - it's Detroit. I think this city
> was originally 'le Detroit' which made me think that French speakers
> may have a totally different pronunciation of the name that English
> speakers. Do they?

It was Fort Pontchartrain du Détroit.
The Comte de Pontchartrain was, of course, also le Sieur de Cadillac.
--
John Dean
Oxford
De-frag to reply
meirman - 25 Jan 2004 00:17 GMT
In alt.english.usage on Fri, 23 Jan 2004 15:32:03 -0000 "John Dean"
<john-dean@frag.lineone.net> posted:

>> The second is more straightforward - it's Detroit. I think this city
>> was originally 'le Detroit' which made me think that French speakers
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>It was Fort Pontchartrain du Détroit.
>The Comte de Pontchartrain was, of course, also le Sieur de Cadillac.

At least he drove a nice car.

s/ meirman    If you are emailing me please  
say if you are posting the same response.

Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years
            Indianapolis,   7 years
            Chicago,        6 years
            Brooklyn NY    12 years
            Baltimore      20 years
Robert Lieblich - 25 Jan 2004 01:55 GMT
> In alt.english.usage on Fri, 23 Jan 2004 15:32:03 -0000 "John Dean"
> <john-dean@frag.lineone.net> posted:
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> At least he drove a nice car.

Love them Pontchartrain convertibles!

Signature

Bob Lieblich
Does Amtrak have a Pontchart Train?

John Dean - 25 Jan 2004 14:01 GMT
>> In alt.english.usage on Fri, 23 Jan 2004 15:32:03 -0000 "John Dean"
>> <john-dean@frag.lineone.net> posted:
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Love them Pontchartrain convertibles!

And the Lamothe Sports Car.
--
John Dean
Oxford
mUs1Ka - 23 Jan 2004 16:04 GMT
> I know that pronunciation place names is hard to talk about in a text
> only group, but I was looking for some help about two place names.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> she - ven - ing -en, with the stress on 'ing', or sometimes 'ven'. I
> now suspect that this is totally incorrect.

Scheveningen [skhA´vuning´´un]

http://reference.allrefer.com/encyclopedia/S/Scheveni.html

m.
AndyC the WB - 23 Jan 2004 22:00 GMT
>>>>> "mUs1Ka" == mUs1Ka  <mUs1Ka@exite.com> writes:

   >> she - ven - ing -en, with the stress on 'ing', or sometimes
   >> 'ven'. I now suspect that this is totally incorrect.
   >>
   mUs1Ka> Scheveningen [skhA´vuning´´un]

   mUs1Ka> http://reference.allrefer.com/encyclopedia/S/Scheveni.html

I won't attempt to render a phonetic pronunication here - suffice to
say that the "g" is more of a "ch" sound and the final "n" is
more-or-less silent.  

More interesting is the story I was told:  the Dutch, during WWII used the
place as a way of detecting German spies.  They'd steer the
conversation around to holiday destinations hoping the suspected spy
would say the name of the town first.  If they said "shave-en-iggen",
they were immediately dragged off as a suspect spy!

One the subject of place names, what the correct pronounciation of Des
Moines?

--
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Mike Bandy - 24 Jan 2004 00:09 GMT
...

>One the subject of place names, what the correct pronounciation of Des
>Moines?

The capital of Iowa is pronounced /di 'mOin/.  (The first syllable has
a short i sound.  The second syllable is accented, and the s isn't
pronounced.)

Signature

Mike Bandy

Raymond S. Wise - 24 Jan 2004 04:22 GMT
> ...
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> a short i sound.  The second syllable is accented, and the s isn't
> pronounced.)

According go *Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary,* 11th ed., that is
also the pronunciation of the name of a Washington city south of Seattle,
which has in addition a secondary variant pronunciation: /di 'mOinz/.

Signature

Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA

E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com

Mike Bandy - 25 Jan 2004 06:56 GMT
...

>> The capital of Iowa is pronounced /di 'mOin/.  (The first syllable has
>> a short i sound.  The second syllable is accented, and the s isn't
>> pronounced.)

>According go *Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary,* 11th ed., that is
>also the pronunciation of the name of a Washington city south of Seattle,
>which has in addition a secondary variant pronunciation: /di 'mOinz/.

Michael McCafferty believes that "Des Moines" comes from a Peoria word
meaning "sh.t-faced."  

He believes that, in June of 1673, the Jesuit Father Jacques Marquette
(of Marquette and Jolliet fame)  met with a Peoria chief and asked him
the name of a neighboring tribe.  The Peoria were middle-men between
that tribe and the French.  To protect their status, the chief
answered that the others were  mooyiinkweena (sh.t-faced),   The
French derivation of that word, Moingoana, eventually became "Moines."
Regardless what the Moingoana called themselves, they merged with the
other Illinois by 1700.

Not everyone is quick to agree with McCafferty, and there are some
older theories.

QUOTE from Des Moines Register article of September 14, 2003 at
http://www.dmregister.com/news/stories/c4788998/22247528.html

Some people feel that 'Des Moines' is derived from the Indian word
"moingona' meaning river of the mounds which referred to the burial
mounds that were located near the banks of the river. Others are of
the opinion that name applies to the Trappist Monks (Moines de la
Trappe) who lived in huts at the mouth of the Des Moines river.

END QUOTE

Further information about Michael McCafferty and Dr. David J. Costa
can be found here:
http://www.myaamiaproject.org/research/who.htm#mccafferty.  

Signature

Mike Bandy

Jerry Friedman - 23 Jan 2004 16:15 GMT
> I know that pronunciation place names is hard to talk about in a text only
> group, but I was looking for some help about two place names.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> she - ven - ing -en, with the stress on 'ing', or sometimes 'ven'. I now
> suspect that this is totally incorrect.

I suspect you're right, and I'm sufficiently interested in chess to
want to know how to pronounce the Scheveningen Variation in the
Sicilian Defense, even though I don't foresee traveling to Europe.
Something tells me it's SKEV-en-ing-gen (/'skEv@n,INg@n/, if ASCII IPA
is allowed in a.e.u.).

And by the way, what about M. C. Escher?  Everyone I've ever heard
says "esher", but should it be "esker"?

(Cross-posted to a.u.e. so I'll see the answers and because there are
Dutch speakers there.)

> The second is more straightforward - it's Detroit. I think this city was
> originally 'le Detroit' which made me think that French speakers may have a
> totally different pronunciation of the name that English speakers. Do they?

Signature

Jerry Friedman

Donna Richoux - 23 Jan 2004 17:14 GMT
> "Alan O'Brien" <alaneobrienNOSPAM@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote

> > I know that pronunciation place names is hard to talk about in a text only
> > group, but I was looking for some help about two place names.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Something tells me it's SKEV-en-ing-gen (/'skEv@n,INg@n/, if ASCII IPA
> is allowed in a.e.u.).

You got the stress right -- on the first syllable.

The CH in words like that is the raspy "kh" sound -- what's that symbol,
/X/?

The first E is pronounced "ay". So the first part rhymes with "raven".

You've written two G's near the end. It really gets the light treatment,
like "singer," not "finger" (at least the way I say those).

You also have to drop the final N. Tons of Dutch words end in -en, and
in the west part of the country, that just becomes "uh".

> And by the way, what about M. C. Escher?  Everyone I've ever heard
> says "esher", but should it be "esker"?

I've never heard a Dutch person say it. It's not a common word or name,
and I don't know any similar words. In Dutch, the tendency is for "ch" a
the end of words to vanish -- "visch" is now "vis". One who fishes is a
"visser"; I don't know if that one ever had the "ch". I see Escher's
father was Frisian, it may be a Frisian spelling.

> (Cross-posted to a.u.e. so I'll see the answers and because there are
> Dutch speakers there.)
>
> > The second is more straightforward - it's Detroit. I think this city was
> > originally 'le Detroit' which made me think that French speakers may have a
> > totally different pronunciation of the name that English speakers. Do they?

Signature

Best -- Donna Richoux
An American living in the Netherlands

Alan O'Brien - 23 Jan 2004 18:11 GMT
> > > I know that pronunciation place names is hard to talk about in a text only
> > > group, but I was looking for some help about two place names.
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> You also have to drop the final N. Tons of Dutch words end in -en, and
> in the west part of the country, that just becomes "uh".

I also had heard that the final n may not be 'fully pronounced'. thank you
for the info that it is predominantly the west.
Alan
Bob Cunningham - 23 Jan 2004 20:01 GMT
[ . . . ]

> > I suspect you're right, and I'm sufficiently interested in chess to
> > want to know how to pronounce the Scheveningen Variation in the
> > Sicilian Defense, even though I don't foresee traveling to Europe.
> > Something tells me it's SKEV-en-ing-gen (/'skEv@n,INg@n/, if ASCII IPA
> > is allowed in a.e.u.).

> You got the stress right -- on the first syllable.

> The CH in words like that is the raspy "kh" sound -- what's that symbol,
> /X/?

> The first E is pronounced "ay". So the first part rhymes with "raven".
> You've written two G's near the end. It really gets the light treatment,
> like "singer," not "finger" (at least the way I say those).

> You also have to drop the final N. Tons of Dutch words end in -en, and
> in the west part of the country, that just becomes "uh".

From _Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Eleventh Edition_ (not to
check up on Donna, but to see how well the pronunciation is
shown in the _Collegiate_):

  Main Entry: Sche.ve.ning.en
  Pronunciation: ['ske v@ ,nIN @(n)], ['sXe]-

   I think this agrees in every detail with Donna's
explanation, except that they show a couple of variants:

   They first show the first syllable pronounced as an
English speaker would; that is, without gutturalizing the
"k".  They show the guttural pronunciation as the variant
['sXe]-.  If I were pronouncing the word I would use the
unguttural "k".  

   I also pronounce "Bach" [bA:k], not [bA:X].  I dislike
the idea of trying to use foreign sounds in speaking
English.  For me, "loch" is a Scottish word that the
Scottish people pronounce as they see fit, but it's also an
American English word pronounced in an American English way,
a homophone of "lock".

   Donna's apocope of the final [n] is a variant in the
_Collegiate_ pronunciation, shown by putting the "n" in
parens.  Maybe Dutch speakers drop the "n" in casual
conversation but supply it when speaking carefully.

   Not that it's a variant, but while they show the vowel
in the first syllable to be like the one in "day", I've
assumed the Dutch speakers really use a monophthongal "a";
that is [e] rather than [eI].  Maybe I'm wrong about that.
The dictionary pronunciation scheme would use the same
symbol either way.
Geoff Butler - 24 Jan 2004 12:39 GMT
>Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>"visser"; I don't know if that one ever had the "ch". I see Escher's
>father was Frisian, it may be a Frisian spelling.

I asked a Dutchman this question once, when I was living there. He said
that it's definitely "esher", and that it's a name so pronunciation
rules don't apply. Names go back before the time when spelling became
consistent, and people don't feel the need to respell their names when
the rules change. (The same is true in English, apart from the
implication that spelling is now consistent.)

Signature

-ler

Jerry Friedman - 26 Jan 2004 22:39 GMT
> Donna Richoux <trio@euronet.nl> wrote [nothing in this post]
> >>
> >> And by the way, what about M. C. Escher?  Everyone I've ever heard
> >> says "esher", but should it be "esker"?
...

> I asked a Dutchman this question once, when I was living there. He said
> that it's definitely "esher", and that it's a name so pronunciation
> rules don't apply. Names go back before the time when spelling became
> consistent, and people don't feel the need to respell their names when
> the rules change. (The same is true in English, apart from the
> implication that spelling is now consistent.)

Thanks to all who responded!

Signature

Jerry Friedman

Alan O'Brien - 23 Jan 2004 17:17 GMT
> > I know that pronunciation place names is hard to talk about in a text only
> > group, but I was looking for some help about two place names.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Something tells me it's SKEV-en-ing-gen (/'skEv@n,INg@n/, if ASCII IPA
> is allowed in a.e.u.).

Jerry - I'm a chess player too and it was through chess that I learnt the
word! .. In future I'll say 'Taimanov' or 'Paulsen'.... It's close enough!
Alan
Martin Ambuhl - 23 Jan 2004 21:02 GMT
> And by the way, what about M. C. Escher?  Everyone I've ever heard
> says "esher", but should it be "esker"?
>
> (Cross-posted to a.u.e. so I'll see the answers and because there are
> Dutch speakers there.)

EPD16 (DJones) gives /'eS@(r/, US /'eSR/.
Caveats: EPD is, of course, concerned with English pronunciation.  It uses
/e/ where /E/ is more correct.  It has this in common with Murray's OED
pronunciations, but the OED editors have decided that the difference
between /e/ in French, German, Italian, Spanish, etc. and /E/ in English is
too great to suck them into a single glyph.

Signature

Martin Ambuhl

Raymond S. Wise - 23 Jan 2004 18:39 GMT
> I know that pronunciation place names is hard to talk about in a text only
> group, but I was looking for some help about two place names.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> originally 'le Detroit' which made me think that French speakers may have a
> totally different pronunciation of the name that English speakers. Do they?

Yes. The French pronounce the name of the city "day-trwah" and often spell
it "Détroit." The "ay" here represents the French "é" which is a simple
vowel, not a diphthong, and the "r" is pronounced differently in French than
in English.

Signature

Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA

E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com

Adrian Bailey - 23 Jan 2004 19:13 GMT
> I know that pronunciation place names is hard to talk about in a text only
> group, but I was looking for some help about two place names.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> she - ven - ing -en, with the stress on 'ing', or sometimes 'ven'. I now
> suspect that this is totally incorrect.

I once stayed at a friend's parents' house in Amersfoort and they didn't
speak English and I didn't speak Dutch so we had some fun trying to
communicate. At one point they tried to teach me how to say "Scheveningen"
so I assume that the name is quite famous for being tricky and/or fun to
say. What I heard sounded to me like "shXrév'n-ing'n" (X here representing
the "ch" in German "doch" or Welsh "diolch"; é as in French "bébé") and when
I parroted it back to them they seemed to approve. I'm not sure whether
there's really any "r" in the pronunciation, or whether it's the rasping of
the X that comes across as r-flavoured to my English ears.

Adrian
AoT - 23 Jan 2004 20:33 GMT
"Adrian Bailey"  wrote ... I once stayed at a friend's parents' house in
Amersfoort and they didn't  speak English and I didn't speak Dutch so we had
some fun trying to  communicate. At one point they tried to teach me how to
say "Scheveningen"  so I assume that the name is quite famous for being
tricky and/or fun to  say. ...

I was told by a Dutchman that the pronunciation of  'Scheveningen' was used
by  the WWII resistance to winkle-out foreigners attempting to infiltrate
the movement.

AOT.
Dean Tiegs - 24 Jan 2004 18:18 GMT
> The second is more straightforward - it's Detroit. I think this city
> was originally 'le Detroit' which made me think that French speakers
> may have a totally different pronunciation of the name that English
> speakers. Do they?

They do: [detrwa]. They usually use the original French spelling too:
Détroit.

Crosspost & Followup-To: alt.usage.english
Signature

Dean Tiegs, NE¼-20-52-25-W4
“Confortare et esto robustus”
http://telusplanet.net/public/dctiegs/

 
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