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naked lunch

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Arne H. Wilstrup - 26 Apr 2009 08:47 GMT
I have heard this expression "naked lunch" somewhere, but what does it
mean?  (I don't mean literarly, but in reality)
Leslie Danks - 26 Apr 2009 09:35 GMT
> I have heard this expression "naked lunch" somewhere, but what does it
> mean?  (I don't mean literarly, but in reality)

It's the opposite of a packed lunch.

Signature

Les (BrE)

Nicholas Adams - 26 Apr 2009 10:14 GMT
Leslie Danks <leslie.danks@aon.at> schrieb:

>> I have heard this expression "naked lunch" somewhere, but what does it
>> mean?  (I don't mean literarly, but in reality)
>
>It's the opposite of a packed lunch.

...and the title of a novel by american author William S. Burroughs.

Nick
Arne H. Wilstrup - 26 Apr 2009 10:28 GMT
> Leslie Danks <leslie.danks@aon.at> schrieb:
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> ...and the title of a novel by american author William S. Burroughs.

which is about?
Athel Cornish-Bowden - 26 Apr 2009 10:45 GMT
>> Leslie Danks <leslie.danks@aon.at> schrieb:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> which is about?

Sex, drugs and violence. If memory serves (I read it in about 1966) it
contains a very nasty description of a rape with a bottle. (All rapes
are nasty, but some are nastier than others.) Not a fun read, anyway.

Signature

athel

Arne H. Wilstrup - 26 Apr 2009 14:21 GMT
>>> Leslie Danks <leslie.danks@aon.at> schrieb:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> contains a very nasty description of a rape with a bottle. (All rapes
> are nasty, but some are nastier than others.) Not a fun read, anyway.

I agree. My intention is not to read the book, but only to understand
the meaning of naked lunch (how is the lunch naked etc.). If there is no
pun intended, no interpretation intended -as stipulated in wikipedia -
that's all there is to it. Thank you.
Arne H. Wilstrup - 26 Apr 2009 10:28 GMT
>> I have heard this expression "naked lunch" somewhere, but what does
>> it
>> mean?  (I don't mean literarly, but in reality)
>
> It's the opposite of a packed lunch.

Only this? No pun? no other intention than this?
Well, thank you very much.
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 26 Apr 2009 11:25 GMT
>>> I have heard this expression "naked lunch" somewhere, but what does
>>> it
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>Only this? No pun? no other intention than this?
>Well, thank you very much.

I've seen the phrase only as the title of the novel by William S.
Burroughs and the film of the novel.

The Wikipedia article says:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naked_Lunch

   Explanation of the title
   
   Burroughs states in his introduction that Jack Kerouac suggested the
   title. "The title means exactly what the words say: naked lunch, a
   frozen moment when everyone sees what is on the end of every
   fork." In a June 1960 letter Jack Kerouac wrote to Allen Ginsberg
   saying he was pleased that Burroughs had credited him with the title
   but had not recently heard from him. He states in his letter that
   Ginsberg misread 'Naked Lust' from the manuscript, and only he
   noticed; that section of the manuscript later became Queer, although
   the phrase does not appear in either of the two final texts of the
   novel.

Signature

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.english.usage)

Arne H. Wilstrup - 26 Apr 2009 14:17 GMT
>>>> I have heard this expression "naked lunch" somewhere, but what does
>>>> it
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>    the phrase does not appear in either of the two final texts of the
>    novel.

Thank you.
Raymond O'Hara - 27 Apr 2009 22:06 GMT
> Thank you.

Burroughs shot his wife between the eyes when in an alcohol and drug fueled
haze they decided to play William Tell.
Mike Mooney - 28 Apr 2009 14:44 GMT
> Burroughs shot his wife between the eyes when in an alcohol and drug fueled
> haze they decided to play William Tell.

Rossini can have that effect on a person.

Mike M
Martin Ambuhl - 26 Apr 2009 11:19 GMT
> I have heard this expression "naked lunch" somewhere, but what does it
> mean?  (I don't mean literarly, but in reality)

It denotes a book by William S. Burroughs (Olympia Press, 1959; Grove
Press, 1962).  The 1962 Grove Press book is the one I read originally,
and derives from a different, earlier manuscript. There is a revised
edition from Grove Press now (2001 & 2004).  I haven't seen David
Cronenberg's film, so I don't know if or how it differs.

Read the book and then decide for yourself what it means.  Jack Kerouac,
who Burroughs claimed suggested the title, is unavailable for comment,
but Burroughs said, "The title means exactly what the words say: naked
lunch, a frozen moment when everyone sees what is on the end of every
fork."  It is not clear that Kerouac actually suggested that title.
Burrough's comments are in the introduction to the book.  If you can
spare $11 or so ($14 list), get a copy of _Naked Lunch: The Restored_
Text by William S. Burroughs, James Grauerholz, and Barry Miles (Grove
Press, 2001 & 2004, ISBN 978-0802140180), the editors' note on p. 235
may help you.
Arne H. Wilstrup - 26 Apr 2009 14:19 GMT
>> I have heard this expression "naked lunch" somewhere, but what does
>> it mean?  (I don't mean literarly, but in reality)
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Miles (Grove Press, 2001 & 2004, ISBN 978-0802140180), the editors'
> note on p. 235 may help you.

Thank you. I am, however, not interested in reading a somewhat strange
book, but only want to know the meaning of the title. If it is not a
pun, but just a title denoting what wikipedia has already said, I think
I am fine with this.
No more - no less.
Nicholas Adams - 27 Apr 2009 06:02 GMT
"Arne H. Wilstrup" <ahw> schrieb:

>Thank you. I am, however, not interested in reading a somewhat strange
>book, but only want to know the meaning of the title. If it is not a
>pun, but just a title denoting what wikipedia has already said, I think
>I am fine with this.
>No more - no less.

It is, however, one of the 1000 or so pieces of literature one should
have read in one's life.

Nicholas
Arne H. Wilstrup - 27 Apr 2009 16:25 GMT
> "Arne H. Wilstrup" <ahw> schrieb:
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> It is, however, one of the 1000 or so pieces of literature one should
> have read in one's life.

Why?
Nicholas Adams - 27 Apr 2009 18:20 GMT
"Arne H. Wilstrup" <ahw> schrieb:

>> "Arne H. Wilstrup" <ahw> schrieb:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>Why?

Because it's one outstanding example of a literature genre called:
Beat-Literature. The other outstanding example of the same genre is a
novel by Jack Kerouak: On the Road.

Nicholas
Cece - 27 Apr 2009 19:53 GMT
> "Arne H. Wilstrup" <ahw> schrieb:
>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

And I have read neither.  I've never even heard of one of them.  Who
decides what literature is "best"?  The same people who decide what
students are supposed to read in literature classes?
Nicholas Adams - 27 Apr 2009 22:03 GMT
Cece <ceceliaarmstrong@yahoo.com> schrieb:

>> "Arne H. Wilstrup" <ahw> schrieb:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>decides what literature is "best"?  The same people who decide what
>students are supposed to read in literature classes?

Well, what you read or not read is up to you.
On the other hand: Who ever mentioned anything about  "best"?

Nicholas
Arne H. Wilstrup - 27 Apr 2009 23:45 GMT
> Well, what you read or not read is up to you.
> On the other hand: Who ever mentioned anything about  "best"?

You have. You talk about "outstanding literature" which means "above all
literature" and therefore the basic meaning must be "best". If it is not
best, it is not outstanding, isn't it so?
Nicholas Adams - 27 Apr 2009 23:49 GMT
"Arne H. Wilstrup" <ahw> schrieb:

>> Well, what you read or not read is up to you.
>> On the other hand: Who ever mentioned anything about  "best"?
>
>You have. You talk about "outstanding literature" which means "above all
>literature" and therefore the basic meaning must be "best". If it is not
>best, it is not outstanding, isn't it so?

Again:  I did NOT write outstanding literature....see my other
posting.

Nicholas
Tom P - 28 Apr 2009 21:29 GMT
>> "Arne H. Wilstrup" <ahw> schrieb:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> decides what literature is "best"?  The same people who decide what
> students are supposed to read in literature classes?

If you've never heard of them, then you are displaying your ignorance of
English literature in an impressive fashion. Which writers have you
heard of?

T.
Arne H. Wilstrup - 28 Apr 2009 22:30 GMT
>>> "Arne H. Wilstrup" <ahw> schrieb:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> of English literature in an impressive fashion. Which writers have you
> heard of?

T.S. Eliot, Pinter, Boakye, D'Aguiar, Churchill, Kane, Ravenhill,
Delaney, Wesker, Beckett, Frayn,Bennett if you are asking me.

Have you heard of plays and dramas like "Top Girls, Blasted, Shopping
and f.cking, The Homecoming, Happy Days, Chicken Soup with Barley -
Roots, Look Back in Anger, Copenhagen, The History Boys?" just to
mention a few?

If you don't know them, you might as well be considered ignorant of
English literature :-)

The great wealth of English literature makes it, however,  impossible to
deal with the subject in any detail within a scope of one posting. You
must therefore confine yourself to only a few of the outstanding
writers.

Who has not heard for instance of William Shakespeare, one of the
greatest dramatists of all time?

He is famous for his comedies such as "Twelfth Night, As you like it,
and the Taming of the Shrew and equally famous for his magnificient
tragedies as Macbeth, Hamlet and Othello. Shakespeare lived in the reign
of queen Elisabeht, which was a great age of English literature.

Of later plays there's "He stoops to Conquer" by Oliver Goldsmith, and
the School for Scandal by Richard Sherridan.
Then coming to the present days we have the dramas of the Irish author
Bernhard Shaw, possibly his best known plays are "Cæsar and Cleopatra,
Man and Superman, Back to Methuselah and Saint Joan".

English poetry covers such a wide field that I can't do little more that
enumerate a few names: Chaucer is well known for his Canterbury Tales,
Milton for his two famous epics "Paradise Lost and Paradise Regain, Pope
for his mastery of the classical style, while the romantic school
recalls famous names as  Byron, Shelly, Keats and Browning.

English novelists have been translated into so many languages that
people who know no English are nevertheless familiar with English
writings. Yet it is only those who can read these novels in the original
who can really appreciate such masterpieces as Ivanhoe by Walter Scott,
and David Copperfield, Oliver Twist and The Old Curiosity Shop by
Charles Dickens.

So even if I or others don't actually know a novel like "Naked Lunch" we
are not at all ignorants either.
Mike Mooney - 29 Apr 2009 09:47 GMT
> >>> "Arne H. Wilstrup" <ahw> schrieb:
>
[quoted text clipped - 73 lines]
> So even if I or others don't actually know a novel like "Naked Lunch" we
> are not at all ignorants either.- Hide quoted text -

Fine. But all very Anglocentric. Them Yanks have written some good
stuff as well you know.

Mike M
Cece - 30 Apr 2009 17:10 GMT
> >> "Arne H. Wilstrup" <ahw> schrieb:
>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

Literature?  Who decides what books are literature?  What is
literature?

I've never heard of Naked Lunch, or William S. Burroughs.  I have
heard of Kerouac and his book, but never seen a copy.  Why would I
want to?  I've lived through that, and I never thought much of
beatniks; later, I thought less of hippies.

Writers I have heard of?  Charlotte Bronte (yawn), Emily Bronte (ick),
Charles Dickens (boring), Herman Melville (if not boring, then
disgusting), Steinbeck (except for Travels with Charley and the
translation of Morte d'Arthur, horrid), Crane and Maugham and Remarque
(depressing), and a bunch of others whose books were so memorable that
I forgot them as soon as the semester was over.  Others whose work I
seek out and re-read?  Twain, London, Shakespeare (not the sonnets),
Browning (Robert, not his drippy wife), Heinlein (not the last few),
Poul Anderson, L.M. Bujold, F.P. Keyes, F.H. Burnett, many more.
Reading should not be work; it should be fun.
tony cooper - 30 Apr 2009 18:53 GMT
>I've never heard of Naked Lunch, or William S. Burroughs.  I have
>heard of Kerouac and his book, but never seen a copy.  Why would I
>want to?  I've lived through that, and I never thought much of
>beatniks; later, I thought less of hippies.

Awww...that's sad.  I was born a bit too early to be a hippie or a
beatnik, but I thought they were cool.  I read Kerouac and Ginsberg
and Ferlinghetti and wished that I wasn't already gainfully employed
and the owner of neckties.  

Then I went to San Francisco on a business trip and wandered around
the places where the girls wore flowers in their hair and - sadly -
was put off by the fact that their feet were dirty.  Somehow,
free-spiritedness lost some of the glamour.

I hung out sometimes at The College of Complexes in Chicago, but
couldn't get it out of my mind that those beatnik poets who got up to
read their work wrote some really, really bad stuff.  I felt
out-of-place when the crowd applauded some angry free verse diatribe
at materialism or the establishment just because the speaker was
appropriately wispy-bearded, black-clad, and scruffy.  They took
themselves so damn *seriously*.  

It was good for them, though.  If you had no talent of expression, no
ability to be clever, and nothing worthwhile to say, then presentation
and appearance made up for those sins of omission.  Stand there for an
overlong minute, raise your head and shout "f.ck them!" several times,
and then sink into a posture of despair and the crowd would clap and
nod agreement at the "poem".  

Signature

Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

Robert Lieblich - 30 Apr 2009 22:25 GMT
[ ... ]

> If you had no talent of expression, no
> ability to be clever, and nothing worthwhile to say, then presentation
> and appearance made up for those sins of omission.  Stand there for an
> overlong minute, raise your head and shout "f.ck them!" several times,
> and then sink into a posture of despair and the crowd would clap and
> nod agreement at the "poem".

I tried that once in a law-school class.  The professor seemed amused,
but he complained of my failure to advance the argument.

Well, actually, I said "f.ck you."  Perhaps he took it personally.

Or perhaps I misremember, and it was another phrase, and another
person said it.

<diversion> I was an undergraduate at Berkeley when the 50s ended and
the pre-Sixties 60s began[1].  I recall attending a "reading" or two
of the sort describes, including at least one right in the heart of
North Beach, where even a square like me could detect the scent of
marijuana.  It would have been terribly exciting if it hadn't been so
boring.

[1]  The real Sixties began not long after Kennedy was shot and ended
not long after the Watergate break-in.

Signature

Bob Lieblich
Still a square

Mike Mooney - 01 May 2009 15:00 GMT
> [1]  The real Sixties began not long after Kennedy was shot and ended
> not long after the Watergate break-in.

Sexual intercourse began
In nineteen sixty-three
(which was rather late for me) -
Between the end of the Chatterley ban
And the Beatles' first LP.

Mike M
Cece - 05 May 2009 21:00 GMT
> > [1]  The real Sixties began not long after Kennedy was shot and ended
> > not long after the Watergate break-in.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Mike M

LOL!  Yes, indeedy!

I started college in '66, and nearly everyone in that school was
serious about earning a degree.  There were a few who were more
serious about being hippie-type.  One of my dorm-mates was very proud
of her engagement ring; it had been purchased in an "antique store" (a
junk shop) and was made of very thin "gold" wires wrapping around the
finger like flower stems, with the end of each wire flattened to hold
a minute chip of "gemstone" (probably glass), each a different color.
Her fiance was the self-appointed political leader on campus who
worked hard to get a referendum to permit SNCC on campus.  He was
gratified at the voting turnout, over 90%, when the usual there was
less than 30% (remember, the voting age for actual political stuff was
still 21) -- but he was bewildered when the vote was 99% against!
College kids couldn't vote for real then, and the most of the kids on
that campus figured they'd worry about politics "Later.  After I get
my degree and a job."   We tolerated Barry and Bari -- they were nice
kids -- as long as they didn't try to make us be activists.

That school had had a sit-in once, during 65-66, called for lunch time
in front of the main admin building, to protest the firing of a
poplular professor.  Passing faculty smiled; administration ignored.
The sit-in ended abruptly when everyone realized it was almost 1:00 --
time for class!
Arne H. Wilstrup - 27 Apr 2009 23:43 GMT
>>Why?
>>
> Because it's one outstanding example of a literature genre called:
> Beat-Literature. The other outstanding example of the same genre is a
> novel by Jack Kerouak: On the Road.

I think that I have read a lot of "outstanding" literature you probably
have not heard of. And there is a lot of literature who deserves the be
called "outstanding".

The choice is yours or rather the elite's who wants to decide what "good
taste" is. But is the "elite" objectively correct or is it just a matter
of taste?
Nicholas Adams - 27 Apr 2009 23:47 GMT
"Arne H. Wilstrup" <ahw> schrieb:

> >>Why?
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>taste" is. But is the "elite" objectively correct or is it just a matter
>of taste?

I wrote  _outstanding excaple of a literature genre_
I did NOT write outstanding literature!

Nicholas
Bill McCray - 28 Apr 2009 00:40 GMT
> "Arne H. Wilstrup" <ahw> schrieb:
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> I wrote  _outstanding excaple of a literature genre_
> I did NOT write outstanding literature!

That time, yes.

Bill

----------------------------------------------------------------
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QT - 27 Apr 2009 16:40 GMT
> It is, however, one of the 1000 or so pieces of literature one should
> have read in one's life, in my opinion.
>
> Nicholas

Fixed!

Signature

qt

Nicholas Adams - 27 Apr 2009 18:17 GMT
"QT" <quicktransUNSPAMDESPAM@fastmail.fm> schrieb:

>> It is, however, one of the 1000 or so pieces of literature one should
>> have read in one's life, in my opinion.
>>
>> Nicholas
>
>Fixed!

What  do you thing whoms opinion I am writing when I'm writing?
So there's no need for a statement like "in my opinion". Because if it
were someone elses opinion, I would have set a pair of quotation
marks!

And now, you poophole, crawl back into your cave and don't you ever
again mess-up my postings.

Nicholas
Martin Ambuhl - 27 Apr 2009 21:00 GMT
> "QT" <quicktransUNSPAMDESPAM@fastmail.fm> schrieb:
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> were someone elses opinion, I would have set a pair of quotation
> marks!

When I was a freshman in college more than forty years ago, there was an
a.shole on our floor that kept saying "in your opinion" after almost
every utterance by someone else.  I see that time has not removed this
form of idiocy from the world.  If it isn't obvious that Nicholas Adams
was stating his opinion, I suppose we need to tag "QT"'s "in my opinion"
and "fixed" with "in QT's (completely moronic) opinion".
QT - 29 Apr 2009 12:00 GMT
> I am never ever going to call someone on usenet a poophole. Forgive
me, my friend. No offence intended.

> Nicholas

Apologies accepted.

Signature

qt

BMCT2010 - 16 May 2009 16:41 GMT
> I have heard this expression "naked lunch" somewhere, but what does it
> mean?  (I don't mean literarly, but in reality)

In the sense that it is meant, it literally means having lunch naked.
Barb Knox - 16 May 2009 20:39 GMT
In article
<eff5bd2c-f6b8-416e-80ca-c6ca129f7308@v17g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,

> > I have heard this expression "naked lunch" somewhere, but what does it
> > mean?  (I don't mean literarly, but in reality)
>
> In the sense that it is meant, it literally means having lunch naked.

Or having a lunch which itself is naked.  Maybe an undressed salad?

Signature

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Arne H. Wilstrup - 16 May 2009 20:54 GMT
> In article
> <eff5bd2c-f6b8-416e-80ca-c6ca129f7308@v17g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Or having a lunch which itself is naked.  Maybe an undressed salad?

All right. Thanx
Pat Durkin - 16 May 2009 23:50 GMT
>> In article
>> <eff5bd2c-f6b8-416e-80ca-c6ca129f7308@v17g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>>
>> Or having a lunch which itself is naked.  Maybe an undressed salad?

I think the user of the term was emphasizing a "non-working" lunch, or
possibly, a lunch he paid for himself, rather than a lunch "on the
company" (at the company's expense).

So, you can see from the variety of answers, context is _almost_ all.
Arne H. Wilstrup - 17 May 2009 12:11 GMT
>>> In article
>>> <eff5bd2c-f6b8-416e-80ca-c6ca129f7308@v17g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> So, you can see from the variety of answers, context is _almost_ all.

You're right! Thankx
David Kaye - 16 May 2009 17:55 GMT
> I have heard this expression "naked lunch" somewhere, but what does it
> mean?  (I don't mean literarly, but in reality)

I've never heard the term except in reference to the book.  Using the
book as a reference I'd surmise that "naked lunch" means doing a
number of things that don't seem to relate to each other, but actually
do relate in a subtle way.
 
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