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Discussion Groups / English Usage / May 2009Have a dekko or a shufti at BBC7
I've been listening to BBC 7 via my computer. It's interesting to hear how people spoke BrE on radio shows made in the 50s and 60s. To me that's yesterday, but of course 40-50 years have passed and some things have changed, notably the slang. Just this morning I heard "dekko" and "shufti," and they stood out as unusual to my ears, even though I'm pretty sure both were a part of my own vocabulary back then. It's not that they've disappeared completely, but they may be on the endangered list. The accents and cadences don't seem to have changed as much.  Signature³The fox knows many things - the hedgehog, one big one.² Archilochus > I've been listening to BBC 7 via my computer. It's interesting to hear > how people spoke BrE on radio shows made in the 50s and 60s. To me [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > own vocabulary back then. It's not that they've disappeared completely, > but they may be on the endangered list. These words from Hindustani are hardly slang -- more properly loan-words everyday English took from India during the century of imperial connection. Those with unique denotations persist (e.g. bungalow, curry, pyjamas) while duplicates (dekko. shufti, jildi) are plausibly temporary: but some went a century ago into the printed literature, through Kipling's poem Gunga Din and the like. Sailors' jargon probably behaves similarly (cf. learning the ropes, doldrums, three sheets to the wind etc.) SignatureDon Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) > > I've been listening to BBC 7 via my computer. It's interesting to hear > > how people spoke BrE on radio shows made in the 50s and 60s. To me [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > probably behaves similarly (cf. learning the ropes, doldrums, > three sheets to the wind etc.) I did know where they came from, and of course you're right. They are loan words. But they do seem to me to belong in the slang camp. They are certainly informal English, rather than mainstream, don't you think? Signature³The fox knows many things - the hedgehog, one big one.² Archilochus MC wrote on Sat, 02 May 2009 09:16:18 -0400: > >> I've been listening to BBC 7 via my computer. It's > >> interesting to hear how people spoke BrE on radio shows [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >> Sailors' jargon probably behaves similarly (cf. learning the >> ropes, doldrums, three sheets to the wind etc.) > I did know where they came from, and of course you're right. > They are loan words. > But they do seem to me to belong in the slang camp. They are > certainly informal English, rather than mainstream, don't you > think? Some sailors' jargon has become mainstream as have Hindi words like bungalow but it has been many years since I heard anyone naturally using "dekko" and "shufti". I remember the words being used by ex-soldiers, many of whom had been in India. I had met "jildi" (or do I remember jaldi? ) because of family connections with India but I don't think I have heard it used except perhaps in movies set in the days of the Raj. In such movies, it usually seems duplicated for emphasis as "jildi, jildi!". An alternative word for quickly, like jildi, is the Hawaiian "wiki-wiki", which has rapidly become widely used as in "wiki"s or Wikipedia. I wonder how long it will last.? SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not >> I've been listening to BBC 7 via my computer. It's interesting to hear >> how people spoke BrE on radio shows made in the 50s and 60s. To me [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >everyday English took from India during the century of imperial >connection. I checked the etymologies in OED: dekko [f. Hind. dekho, imperative of dekhn{amac} to look: cf. DECK n.2] shufti [f. Arab. {shacek}ufti have you seen?, f. {shacek}{amac}f to see.] I don't think I've ever met "deck, n.2": colloq. (orig. Anglo-Indian). [ad. Hind. dekha sight, dekhn{amac} to see, look at.] A look, peep. Cf. DEKKO. The most recenr quotation for that: 1951 E. MILNE in J. Marriott Best One-Act Plays of 1950-51 (1952) 99 Crickey, have a deck at Ronald Colman! > Those with unique denotations persist (e.g. bungalow, >curry, pyjamas) while duplicates (dekko. shufti, jildi) are plausibly >temporary: but some went a century ago into the printed literature, >through Kipling's poem Gunga Din and the like. Sailors' jargon >probably behaves similarly (cf. learning the ropes, doldrums, >three sheets to the wind etc.) SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.english.usage) On 02 May 2009, MC wrote > I've been listening to BBC 7 via my computer. It's interesting > to hear how people spoke BrE on radio shows made in the 50s and [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > a part of my own vocabulary back then. It's not that they've > disappeared completely, but they may be on the endangered list. I still hear them now and then -- "shufti" more than "dekko" -- but only from a restricted age group. "Recky" -- (?sp "reccy") -- still seems to be relatively common, though. SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed > On 02 May 2009, MC wrote > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > only from a restricted age group. "Recky" -- (?sp "reccy") -- still > seems to be relatively common, though. But "reccy (or o)" is for reconnaissance, isn't it? A straightforward shortening of a standard military word, and was used among US soldiers. But maybe that was by infection from being stationed in England in WWI? It may be very dated army slang. I recall (in my very vague way) having seen "reccy-deccy" in some one or another novel. >> On 02 May 2009, MC wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > I recall (in my very vague way) having seen "reccy-deccy" in some one > or another novel. I spell it "recce". "Shufti" is alive and well in another thread here today; and I hear "have a deck", short for (and now, I think, more frequent than) "have a dekko/dekho" quite often from my children's generation. See also "a butcher's" and "a butch". SignatureMike. On 2 May, 22:19, "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote: > I spell it "recce". "Shufti" is alive and well in another thread here > today; and I hear "have a deck", short for (and now, I think, more > frequent than) "have a dekko/dekho" quite often from my children's > generation. See also "a butcher's" and "a butch". I'd spell it "recce", too. "Have a shufti", "have a decko" and "have a butcher's" are all synonymous, but whereas (as stated upthread) "decko" and "shufti" are loan words, "butcher's" is rhyming slang - "butcher's hook" = "look". Mike M > On 2 May, 22:19, "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > synonymous, but whereas (as stated upthread) "decko" and "shufti" are > loan words, "butcher's" is rhyming slang - "butcher's hook" = "look". I know I used "recce" a few weeks ago. We'd moored the boat and I took the children for a walk round the village, telling my brother - who was joining me for a drink later - that I'd "recce the pubs on the way past". SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu > I still hear them now and then -- "shufti" more than "dekko" -- but > only from a restricted age group. Compulsory military service may be the vector. Most Britons born between1890 and about 1938 served in uniform for 18 months or more, mostly in the army, and army lingo had adopted much Hindustani and Arabic street vocabulary (e.g. bint for woman) which soldiers picked up even if they never left British shores. Most Americans born 1890 to 1950 served similarly so the US military may have transmitted into civilian speech words and abbreviations like E.T.A., click (for kilometre) and so on. For the gradual disappearance of words when their source dries up, Latinate English may provide a precedent. Up to about 1960 Oxford and Cambridge required Latin at GCE Ordinary level as a condition of admission, so Latin was taught in nearly all secondary schools and compulsory for those in the academic stream. In the everyday language, Latin was reinforced by sundry popular quotations, law Latin and so on -- which became in the late 20th century scarcer, even unpopular as indicators of pretension or affectation, and went out of everyday use. SignatureDon Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) >> I still hear them now and then -- "shufti" more than "dekko" -- but >> only from a restricted age group. > > Compulsory military service may be the vector. Most Britons > born between1890 and about 1938 served in uniform for 18 > months or more, My mother and her own mother and sisters must have wormed their way out of it somehow. > mostly in the army, and army lingo had > adopted much Hindustani and Arabic street vocabulary (e.g. > bint for woman) which soldiers picked up even if they never left > British shores. Indeed. A significant number of light entertainment folk came to the BBC from the services. All the Goons, for example. SignatureDavid >>> I still hear them now and then -- "shufti" more than "dekko" -- but >>> only from a restricted age group. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > My mother and her own mother and sisters must have wormed their way out > of it somehow. Most of the women volunteered, like Betty joined the ATS, seems she really enjoyed the freedom from Windsor. > >>> I still hear them now and then -- "shufti" more than "dekko" -- > but >>> only from a restricted age group. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Most of the women volunteered, like Betty joined the ATS, seems she > really enjoyed the freedom from Windsor. My mother (born 1918) was a Wren/WRN; I'm not sure about her three sisters, but I think they all joined one branch of the services or other for at least part of WW2. DC -- >>>> I still hear them now and then -- "shufti" more than "dekko" -- but >>>> only from a restricted age group. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Most of the women volunteered, like Betty joined the ATS, seems she > really enjoyed the freedom from Windsor. I doubt "most", especially in the first war. Many women were engaged in war work of some sort - munitions, land army, WVS, but "served in uniform" indicates membership of the armed services. SignatureDavid >>>>> I still hear them now and then -- "shufti" more than "dekko" -- but >>>>> only from a restricted age group. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > war work of some sort - munitions, land army, WVS, but "served in > uniform" indicates membership of the armed services. OK, most of the women in uniform in WW2 were volunteers. The land army had a uniform, green jumpers and jodhpurs, the WVS also had a uniform as did the AFS/NFS (Fire services), the various nursing yeomanry groups, ARP, NAAFi, etc. > >>> I still hear them now and then -- "shufti" more than "dekko" -- but > >>> only from a restricted age group. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Most of the women volunteered, like Betty joined the ATS, seems she > really enjoyed the freedom from Windsor. Seeing anyone other than family was a change! Pater came to visit once, though, during the final tests. He somehow sneaked the carburetor out and waited for her to figure out why the vehicle wouldn't start! >>> I still hear them now and then -- "shufti" more than "dekko" -- but >>> only from a restricted age group. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > My mother and her own mother and sisters must have wormed their way out > of it somehow. Moreover, the 1938 date doesn't work for me - I was born in 1940 and approximately half of my classmates were called up. I missed out or escaped only by a few months, so I assume the date was 1939. SignatureRob Bannister > Moreover, the 1938 date doesn't work for me - I was born in 1940 and > approximately half of my classmates were called up. I missed out or > escaped only by a few months, so I assume the date was 1939. When the ending of National Service was being planned it was decided that only those born up to 1 September 1939 were to be called up. The last man called up for National Service, Private Fred Turner of the Army Catering Corps, was discharged on 7 May 1963. However, the last National Serviceman was Lieutenant Richard Vaughan of the Royal Army Pay Corps, who was discharged six days later on 13 May 1963. >>> I still hear them now and then -- "shufti" more than "dekko" -- but >>> only from a restricted age group. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Indeed. A significant number of light entertainment folk came to the > BBC from the services. All the Goons, for example. Peter Cook: "We need a futile gesture at this stage. It will raise the whole tone of the war. Get up in a crate, Perkins, pop over to Bremen, take a shufti, don't come back." Chris R >>>> I still hear them now and then -- "shufti" more than "dekko" -- but >>>> only from a restricted age group. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > tone of the war. Get up in a crate, Perkins, pop over to Bremen, take a > shufti, don't come back." So, it's "au revoir", Sir. SignatureDavid >>>>> I still hear them now and then -- "shufti" more than "dekko" -- >>>>> but only from a restricted age group. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > So, it's "au revoir", Sir. No, Perkins. > On 02 May 2009, MC wrote > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > I still hear them now and then -- "shufti" more than "dekko" Interesting you say this, and others agree with you, because in my experience it's the other way round. "Dekko" was once a normal part of my vocabulary, and I wouldn't fall off my chair in surprise if I heard it today, but although I knew what "shufti" meant I don't think it was ever a word I would have used. Signatureathel >> On 02 May 2009, MC wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > it today, but although I knew what "shufti" meant I don't think it was > ever a word I would have used. I would agree with you, in that "dekko" was a normal part of my school vocabulary, but I doubt if I used it much after those days, nor have I heard it. On the other hand, I have heard "shufti" - not often, but I have heard it fairly recently. SignatureRob Bannister > >> On 02 May 2009, MC wrote > >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > heard it. On the other hand, I have heard "shufti" - not often, but I > have heard it fairly recently. For some reason associate "shufti" with a Cockney accent. If that is more than a subjective impression, it might not have gained much of a foothold outside London - possible? Signature³The fox knows many things - the hedgehog, one big one.² Archilochus >> >> On 02 May 2009, MC wrote >> >> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >more than a subjective impression, it might not have gained much of a >foothold outside London - possible? Both of them were known to me when I was growing up in the Midlands (1940s). I haven't heard either of them used in ages, except on the radio or in films. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England > > I still hear them now and then -- "shufti" more than "dekko" > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > it today, but although I knew what "shufti" meant I don't think it was > ever a word I would have used. MYM (BrE, originally from Sunderland) uses 'dekko' quite regularly. I inquired where, when, and how he acquired its usage, as he certainly had nothing to do with UK military service, being born too late for that to have been obligatory, He thought for a while, and responded, not without some mild embarrassment, '...Biggles, I think.' So it may depend on your childhood reading habits. cheers, S in B > Just this morning I heard "dekko" and "shufti," and they stood out as > unusual to my ears, even though I'm pretty sure both were a part of my > own vocabulary back then. "Shufti" is also from the Arabic language, meaning "show me" "Shuf" to show "A-shufack" = I'll show you (fighting talk) I always thought it was one of those words that soldiers in the 40's brought back from the Middle East, along with words, such as "bint" (girl), and "chai" (tea). > "Shufti" is also from the Arabic language, meaning "show me" > > I always thought it was one of those words that soldiers in the 40's brought > back from the Middle East, along with words, such as "bint" (girl), and > "chai" (tea). Earlier, I think. 'Shufti' seems to have entered British English at the time of T.E. Lawrence and the Arab Revolt. Sir Richard Burton used "bint" in 1855. I would date "chai" back to the days of the East India Company at least. When tea was first drunk in England around 1580 it was called "chaa". >> "Shufti" is also from the Arabic language, meaning "show me" >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Earlier, I think. 'Shufti' seems to have entered British English at > the time of T.E. Lawrence and the Arab Revolt. The OED only cites it to 1943, and Google Books doesn't appear to have any hits before 1963. Is it really in Lawrence (as something said in English)? SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |If to "man" a phone implies handing 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |it over to a person of the male Palo Alto, CA 94304 |gender, then to "monitor" it |suggests handing it over to a kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |lizard. (650)857-7572 | Rohan Oberoi http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > > Earlier, I think. 'Shufti' seems to have entered British English at > > the time of T.E. Lawrence and the Arab Revolt. > > The OED only cites it to 1943, and Google Books doesn't appear to have > any hits before 1963. Is it really in Lawrence (as something said in > English)? I said "at the time of Lawrence"; I don't know if he actually used it. Eric Partridge spells it "shufty" and dates it to around 1925 on page 1065 of his "Dictionary of Slang and Unconventional English" (visible on Google Books) and says that it started life with Royal Air Force stations in that area about 1925, but that it had spread to the Army by 1930. This seems probable, to judge from the extent of its use in World War Two, and the number of compounds it spawned, none of which seem to have survived the end of the War. Among them, Partridge mentions shuftiscope, which had a number of senses, one of which he defines with ponderous delicacy as “an instrument used by doctors for research in cases of dysentery”. "Arabic contributions to the English vocabulary" by Habeeb Salloum gives "shufty, circa 1925". |
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