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Shoots Dead

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MC - 02 May 2009 18:36 GMT
From the BBC site:

"A man wearing an Iraqi military uniform shoots dead two US soldiers and
injures three others in the city of Mosul, reports say."

I think I would have written, "A man wearing an Iraqi military uniform
shoots two US soldiers dead and injures three others in the city of
Mosul, reports say."

Still an ungainly sentence but it means the same thing, however the
position of the word "dead" seems more natural to me.

Is there a rule about this?

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Nick - 02 May 2009 18:40 GMT
> From the BBC site:
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Is there a rule about this?

Both work for me, but the BBC version feels more ideomatic (and would be
even better in the correct tense).
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Skitt - 02 May 2009 18:46 GMT
>> From the BBC site:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Both work for me, but the BBC version feels more ideomatic (and would
> be even better in the correct tense).

Ideas aside, idiomatically speaking, both versions seem clumsy to me.  I
have rewritten the sentence in another message in this thread.
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Skitt (AmE)

Skitt - 02 May 2009 18:43 GMT
> From the BBC site:

> "A man wearing an Iraqi military uniform shoots dead two US soldiers
> and injures three others in the city of Mosul, reports say."
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Is there a rule about this?

The whole thing is clumsy.  I would have written:
"Reports say that in Mosul, a man wearing an Iraqi military uniform shot at
US soldiers, killing two and injuring three others."

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Skitt (AmE)

HVS - 02 May 2009 21:05 GMT
On 02 May 2009, Skitt wrote

>> From the BBC site:
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> uniform shot at US soldiers, killing two and injuring three
> others."

Personal choice thing, but I really dislike reverse-sentence
structures for reporting.

The news here is the reported shooting rather than the report
itself, so that belongs up front;  how about:

"A man wearing an Iraqi military uniform is reported as shooting
dead two US soldiers and injuring three others in the city of
Mosul."

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CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed

Skitt - 02 May 2009 21:12 GMT
>> MC wrote:

>>> From the BBC site:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> dead two US soldiers and injuring three others in the city of
> Mosul."

Maybe it's my personal problem, but I dislike the phrase "shooting dead".
Is its opposite "shooting live"?
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Skitt (AmE)

HVS - 02 May 2009 23:11 GMT
On 02 May 2009, Skitt wrote

>>> MC wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> Maybe it's my personal problem, but I dislike the phrase
> "shooting dead". Is its opposite "shooting live"?

Yabbut, it has to be specified: simply shooting someone doesn't
imply you've shot them dead.

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Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed

Bill McCray - 02 May 2009 23:15 GMT
> Yabbut, it has to be specified: simply shooting someone doesn't
> imply you've shot them dead.

But they aren't shot dead.  They are shot live and die afterward.

Bill in Kentucky

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Robert Bannister - 03 May 2009 00:14 GMT
> On 02 May 2009, Skitt wrote
>
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> dead two US soldiers and injuring three others in the city of
> Mosul."

And even then it's still not clear whether the "three others" were also
US soldiers or simply passers-by.

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Rob Bannister

Ian Jackson - 03 May 2009 08:54 GMT
>On 02 May 2009, Skitt wrote
>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>dead two US soldiers and injuring three others in the city of
>Mosul."

I think that it is usually much better to use the 'reverse-sentence
structure'. At work, I used to preach this gospel to my boss (who
usually gave me his technical writings to check, prior to him
circulating them). I had to keep telling him to avoid tacking
'afterthoughts' on the end of a sentence. It is far better to 'set the
scene' before laying out the meat of the sentence, even if it does
entail the use of a few additional commas.
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Ian

HVS - 03 May 2009 09:47 GMT
On 03 May 2009, Ian Jackson wrote

>> On 02 May 2009, Skitt wrote
>>
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
> sentence, even if it does entail the use of a few additional
> commas.

I did specify "for reporting".

Reports, letters, literature, and feature articles can do what they
like, but to my mind one of the cardinal rules for structuring a
straightforward news report is that you tell the story before you
flesh out the context.

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Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed

MC - 03 May 2009 13:10 GMT
> I think that it is usually much better to use the 'reverse-sentence
> structure'. At work, I used to preach this gospel to my boss (who
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> scene' before laying out the meat of the sentence, even if it does
> entail the use of a few additional commas.

I dislike it when it's overdone.

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John Varela - 03 May 2009 01:24 GMT
> The whole thing is clumsy.  I would have written:
> "Reports say that in Mosul, a man wearing an Iraqi military uniform shot at
> US soldiers, killing two and injuring three others."

Comma?

I would have written: "Shots from a man wearing an Iraqi military
uniform killed two US soldiers and wounded* three others** in
Mosul."

* Shades of another thread.

** Or "wounded three bystanders", whichever is correct.

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Skitt - 03 May 2009 02:36 GMT

>> The whole thing is clumsy.  I would have written:
>> "Reports say that in Mosul, a man wearing an Iraqi military uniform
>> shot at US soldiers, killing two and injuring three others."
>
> Comma?

What?  Where?

> I would have written: "Shots from a man wearing an Iraqi military
> uniform killed two US soldiers and wounded* three others** in
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> ** Or "wounded three bystanders", whichever is correct.

You lost the "reports" part.
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Skitt (AmE)

John Varela - 03 May 2009 22:12 GMT
>  
> >> The whole thing is clumsy.  I would have written:
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> What?  Where?

After "Mosul".  Doesn't it need a companion after "that"?  I would
omit it.
 
> > I would have written: "Shots from a man wearing an Iraqi military
> > uniform killed two US soldiers and wounded* three others** in
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> You lost the "reports" part.

OK, "It is reported that..."

Today's paper says that the shooter was in fact an Iraqi soldier.

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Skitt - 03 May 2009 22:19 GMT
>>>> The whole thing is clumsy.  I would have written:
>>>> "Reports say that in Mosul, a man wearing an Iraqi military uniform
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> After "Mosul".  Doesn't it need a companion after "that"?  I would
> omit it.

Hmm, I think you are right about the missing companion comma.  I hesitated a
bit when I wrote the sentence, but decided not to get too commatose.  I
couldn't see omitting the one after "Mosul", though.  Good thing there are
no inflexible punctuation rules for English.

>>> I would have written: "Shots from a man wearing an Iraqi military
>>> uniform killed two US soldiers and wounded* three others** in
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Today's paper says that the shooter was in fact an Iraqi soldier.

I like your re-write.
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Skitt (AmE)

Ian Jackson - 03 May 2009 08:57 GMT
>> The whole thing is clumsy.  I would have written:
>> "Reports say that in Mosul, a man wearing an Iraqi military uniform shot at
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>uniform killed two US soldiers and wounded* three others** in
>Mosul."

"In Mosul" is 'an afterthought". Far better to 'set the scene' by
starting with "In Mosul, shots"...  etc.

> * Shades of another thread.
>
>** Or "wounded three bystanders", whichever is correct.
>
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Ian

Don Phillipson - 03 May 2009 17:13 GMT
> The whole thing is clumsy.  I would have written:
> "Reports say that in Mosul, a man wearing an Iraqi military uniform shot at
> US soldiers, killing two and injuring three others."

The earlier tradition was that gunshot wounds were called
wounds, and the word injury was reserved for damage
done accidentally as in car crashes etc.  The distinction seems
still valuable.

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Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

R H Draney - 02 May 2009 18:48 GMT
MC filted:

>From the BBC site:
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>Is there a rule about this?

THere is one rule that applies in cases like this, and that rule is "there are
no rules"...you could even write:

"A man wearing an Iraqi military uniform shoots two US soldiers in the city of
Mosul, reports say, dead, and injures three others."

And none (apart from these newsgroups) will say you nay....r

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John Lawler - 16 May 2009 18:09 GMT
> >From the BBC site:
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> And none (apart from these newsgroups) will say you nay....r

Actually, there are several rules (*real*, self-enforcing grammatical
rules, that is, rather than old-wives' shibboleths about not splitting
infinitives after Labor Day).

One of them is a procedure called "Heavy NP Shift" that sees to it
that long complex Noun Phrases (normally direct objects) wind up at
the end of the clause, where they're easier to process.  This is an
optional rule for several constructions (phrasal verbs like 'look the
book up', dative constructions like 'give  the phone to me', etc.)
that might otherwise put some constituent after the DO.  But the
optionality declines as the heaviness of the DO increases:

   Give the book to me.    ('Look the book up' works similarly)
   Give the big book to me.
   Give that large book on the table to me.
 ?Give that large book on the table that Bill got for you to me.
?*Give that large book on the table with the rip on the back and the
coffee
    stain on the front that Bill got for your birthday and then
forgot about
    to me.

Since English is a right-branching language, the end of the clause is
where large complex constituents are most easily parsed, and we have a
lot of rules that act to convert center-embedded structures into right-
branching ones.  If you don't do that you get a very awkward sentence.

In this particular case, a rather different construction is involved,
one of a family that all have the structure Subj-Verb-DO-Adj, for
instance:

   He shot them dead.     He buried them alive.
   He saw them dead.      He found them alive.

These are not all the same construction.  To shoot someone dead is to
shoot them with the result that they die, while to bury someone alive
is to bury them while they are alive (which results in death, too).
And one can't just swap the DO and Adj components ad lib.  However,
Heavy NP shift is applicable here, and when the DO is heavy enough
(and in this case, when both parts of "shoot dead" are equally
relevant to the report and work better when not separated, which is an
additional constraint), one can.  Apparently.

This particular construction type is called a "conspiracy" in the
trade, because it is essentially an example of parallel syntactic
evolution -- all the individual constructions these represent (Subj V
DO while DO is Adj, Subj V DO with result that DO is Adj, etc.)
"conspire" to exhibit the same preferred structure on the surface.
This conspiracy was studied back in the 1970s by Georgia Green of the
University of Illinois, though I don't have a reference handy.

Remember, you asked.

-John Lawler - http://www.umich.edu/~jlawler/aue
   "Academic integrity still plagues campus"
Headline, University of Michigan Daily 11/12/02
Steve Hayes - 03 May 2009 04:54 GMT
>From the BBC site:
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>Is there a rule about this?

I don't know about rules, but there's an interesting blog post on word order
at:

http://www.brucealderman.info/blog/2009/04/hierarchy-of-english-adjectives.html

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BMCT2010 - 16 May 2009 16:35 GMT
> From the BBC site:
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> ³The fox knows many things - the hedgehog, one big one.²
>  Archilochus

Technically, it should be, "A man wearing an Iraqi military uniform
> shot two US soldiers dead and injured three others in the city of
> Mosul, reports say."
 
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