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Discussion Groups / English Usage / May 2009Not really ironic... or is it?
Looking for a word that isn't 'ironic' or 'ironically.' Let's say - to invent an example - an established form of entertainment such as traditional hand-drawn 2D film animation is stagnating. A new form such as 3D computer animation comes along and delivers the death blow. Twenty years later the new form is instrumental in reviving the old form. In a case like this you might hear something like, "Ironically it is Pixar that is bringing back traditional 2D animation." Seems to me that 'ironically' isn't really the right word, but I'm not sure why. If not, what's a good alternative? Or is it the right word?  Signature³The fox knows many things - the hedgehog, one big one.² Archilochus >Looking for a word that isn't 'ironic' or 'ironically.' > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Seems to me that 'ironically' isn't really the right word, but I'm not >sure why. If not, what's a good alternative? Or is it the right word? I see nothing wrong with "ironically". SignatureJames M. Cope: >> Seems to me that 'ironically' isn't really the right word, but I'm not >> sure why. If not, what's a good alternative? Or is it the right word? James Hogg: > I see nothing wrong with "ironically". Likewise. SignatureMark Brader | "...where did they get the sunlight in such a hurry? I know msb@vex.net | it can be delivered in about eight minutes, but there must Toronto | be lots of paperwork involved." -- Michael Wares >>Looking for a word that isn't 'ironic' or 'ironically.' >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >I see nothing wrong with "ironically". I have the impression from previous discussions here (AUE) that BrE uses "ironic" and "ironically" with wider meanings than does AmE. However, the animation example being asked about seems to be covered by OED's sense of "irony": 2. fig. A condition of affairs or events of a character opposite to what was, or might naturally be, expected; a contradictory outcome of events as if in mockery of the promise and fitness of things. (In F. ironie du sort.) SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.english.usage) > Looking for a word that isn't 'ironic' or 'ironically.' > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Seems to me that 'ironically' isn't really the right word, but I'm not > sure why. If not, what's a good alternative? Or is it the right word? Fittingly? Doesn't have the same meaning but it is, er, appropriate. SignatureDavid > Looking for a word that isn't 'ironic' or 'ironically.' > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Seems to me that 'ironically' isn't really the right word . . . A different method of approach would be to see what our thesaurus suggests that might be the right word. I cannot see that starting with what we intuit is the wrong word, and then inventing a plausible context for it, is likely to point us in the right direction. If we hope to recognize the right word when we see it, common sense suggests we should evaluate as many alternatives as is practical. SignatureDon Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) > > Looking for a word that isn't 'ironic' or 'ironically.' > > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > right word when we see it, common sense suggests we > should evaluate as many alternatives as is practical. Actually I'm starting with a real context that is very similar to the invented one, but even so, I think giving an example - invented or not - of what I'm talking about is a valid way of stating the problem. Signature³The fox knows many things - the hedgehog, one big one.² Archilochus > > > Looking for a word that isn't 'ironic' or 'ironically.' > . . . > Actually I'm starting with a real context that is very similar to the > invented one, but even so, I think giving an example - invented or not - > of what I'm talking about is a valid way of stating the problem. OK then, back to basics . . . The root meaning of irony comes from theatrical theory, viz. dramatic irony, when part of the audience's enjoyment comes from their knowing something the character on stage does not -- as the audience for Othello knows Iago has been conspiring to throw his general off his rocker, but Othello does not know or understand this as the "evidences" accumulate. Today's everyday use of ironic suggests at the core (#1) privileged or unshared knowledge that (#2) causes some sort of paradox or discrepancy between the various possible outcomes. The common element is that the audience perceives the irony but the protagonist does not. E.g. some people think it ironic that the Polaroid Corp. almost alone created "instant photography" in the 1960s but now has gone bankrupt, ruined by digital optics. No likely near synonym comes to mind. This is why the thesaurus was suggested, as so organized to include remotely overlapping ideas as well as synonyms. SignatureDon Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) >Today's everyday use of ironic suggests at the core >(#1) privileged or unshared knowledge that (#2) causes >some sort of paradox or discrepancy between the various >possible outcomes. The common element is that the >audience perceives the irony but the protagonist does not. That, I guess is still dramatic irony, but #1 at least doesn't apply to many situations of irony outside of the theatre. >E.g. some people think it ironic that the Polaroid Corp. >almost alone created "instant photography" in the 1960s >but now has gone bankrupt, ruined by digital optics. Do you think that is ironic? Digital photography would have arisen whether Polaroid had ever existed or not. Isn't that crucial? BTW, I heard the tail end of a story that there is a new instant camera out or coming out, that makes prints I presume. Don't know any details. SignaturePosters should say where they live, and for which area they are asking questions. I have lived in Western Pa. 10 years Indianapolis 10 years Chicago 6 years Brooklyn, NY 12 years Baltimore 26 years >>Today's everyday use of ironic suggests at the core >>(#1) privileged or unshared knowledge that (#2) causes [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Do you think that is ironic? Digital photography would have arisen > whether Polaroid had ever existed or not. Isn't that crucial? I personally would not use "ironic" in the Polaroid sentence, but I can see where someone might have thought that the irony is that Polaroid invented instant photography, and digital photography is also instant, and so the newer instant photo invention displaced the older instant photo invention. It might have been clearer if the writer had written: "some people think it ironic that the Polaroid Corp. almost alone created "instant photography" in the 1960s but now has gone bankrupt, ruined by THE EVEN FASTER INSTANT PHOTOGRAPHY OF digital optics". Jay >>>Today's everyday use of ironic suggests at the core >>>(#1) privileged or unshared knowledge that (#2) causes [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > >Jay How about, Some people think it is ironic that Polaroid almost alone created instant photography but has gone bankrupt even while there was more instant photography than ever before. I'm not sure how I feel. SignaturePosters should say where they live, and for which area they are asking questions. I have lived in Western Pa. 10 years Indianapolis 10 years Chicago 6 years Brooklyn, NY 12 years Baltimore 26 years > >>>Today's everyday use of ironic suggests at the core > >>>(#1) privileged or unshared knowledge that (#2) causes [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > I'm not sure how I feel. Works for me. But maybe not for the person who thought this is ironic. Jay > -- > Posters should say where they live, and for which [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > - Show quoted text - > Looking for a word that isn't 'ironic' or 'ironically.' > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > �The fox knows many things - the hedgehog, one big one.� > �Archilochus Paradoxically? > Looking for a word that isn't 'ironic' or 'ironically.' > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Seems to me that 'ironically' isn't really the right word, but I'm not > sure why. If not, what's a good alternative? Or is it the right word? Ironically, I think you've find a good example of appropriate usage. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford >Looking for a word that isn't 'ironic' or 'ironically.' > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Seems to me that 'ironically' isn't really the right word, but I'm not There is at least one post missing from the irony fence. Probalby, for it to be irony, the rebirth of 2D stimulted by 3D would have to be damaging the 3D, which I doubt it is. Anymore than renewed popularity of records is damaging the CD market. Or the renewed popularity of vacuum tube amplifiers damaged the transistorized market. In each case, there is room enough for both. And even if the latter in these two cases had stimulated the renewed popularity of the former, it would not have been irony. >sure why. If not, what's a good alternative? Or is it the right word? "Surprisingly" Paradoxically might be good too. It depends on what aspect of all this you are trying to bring out. SignaturePosters should say where they live, and for which area they are asking questions. I have lived in Western Pa. 10 years Indianapolis 10 years Chicago 6 years Brooklyn, NY 12 years Baltimore 26 years >>Looking for a word that isn't 'ironic' or 'ironically.' >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Probalby, for it to be irony, the rebirth of 2D stimulted by 3D > would have to be damaging the 3D, which I doubt it is. I don't see why that would be required. That the company that's responsible for its demise is responsible for its resurgence is sufficient for me. If it hadn't been for them, the argument goes, there wouldn't be a need for a rebirth in the first place. If a murderer tries to kill a family and succeeds in killing all but one child, who only survives due to a heart transplant from the only matching donor--the murderer, who died in a car crash leaving the scene, that's an irony of the first water, even though helping the child doesn't damage the murderer. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |People think it must be fun to be a 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |super genius, but they don't Palo Alto, CA 94304 |realize how hard it is to put up |with all the idiots in the world. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | Calvin (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >>>Looking for a word that isn't 'ironic' or 'ironically.' >>> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >scene, that's an irony of the first water, even though helping the >child doesn't damage the murderer. "I can't define irony, but I know it when I see it." Potter Stewart's evil twin. SignaturePosters should say where they live, and for which area they are asking questions. I have lived in Western Pa. 10 years Indianapolis 10 years Chicago 6 years Brooklyn, NY 12 years Baltimore 26 years Why not "paradoxically" or "unexpectedly"? Signaturecweil@gmx.net > Looking for a word that isn't 'ironic' or 'ironically.' > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > sure why. If not, what's a good alternative? Or is it the right > word? > Looking for a word that isn't 'ironic' or 'ironically.' > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > ³The fox knows many things - the hedgehog, one big one.² > Archilochus The word that you should use is "revertively." > > Looking for a word that isn't 'ironic' or 'ironically.' > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > - Show quoted text - I don't believe it's what the OP had in mind. I still think "paradoxically" connotes the "irony" of the situation better than any other word so far. |
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