Is the comma here 'optional' or 'a must'
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gloria - 08 May 2009 02:39 GMT Dear all,
There is disagreement between my colleagues and me about the answer to this blank. Since you have been so helpful and knowledgeble, would you please help me with this one? The text is printed below for your reference.
Libera is a choir of boys, whose ages range from seven to 16. The choir’s director, Robert Prizeman, chose the name Libera because it’s Latin for “free.” He says, “Free is supposed to be a word that sums up what the music is about.” Indeed, their musical style is much freer than traditional choirs. They sing original and classical songs ____ also performing songs by modern artists like Enya.
A) while B) , which C) which D), while
The correct answer provided is D, but I've checked several sources and we all think A is also a possible answer. Would you tell me if the comma is optional. Thanks for your timely help. With best regards,
Gloria
Robert Lieblich - 08 May 2009 02:47 GMT > Dear all, > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > we all think A is also a possible answer. Would you tell me if the > comma is optional. Thanks for your timely help. I see no difference whatever in acceptability between A) and D). "While" is a preposition, not a relative pronoun, so the old rule about using no commas with defining clauses but using commas with non-defining clauses does not apply. Indeed, I would argue, to the extent that any nuance is involved, that A) is the superior answer, because it more strongly creates a sense of simultaneity -- that is, that the group sings original and classical songs at the same time (during the same performance) as songs by modern artists.
On the basic question, though, there is no question in my mind that your colleagues are simply wrong in arguing that A) is not a correct answer.
 Signature Bob Lieblich Who gets his classical songs from compace discs
Patok - 08 May 2009 03:01 GMT >> Dear all, >> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > that the group sings original and classical songs at the same time > (during the same performance) as songs by modern artists. Maybe it is my non-native language sense, but I perceive answers A) and D) as having different meanings. As you say, A) creates a sense of simultaneity, while D) creates a sense of contrast. I perceive the meaning of the sentence formed with D):
"They sing original and classical songs, while also performing songs by modern artists like Enya."
as being equivalent to the meaning of:
"They sing original and classical songs, but also perform songs by modern artists like Enya."
 Signature You'd be crazy to e-mail me with the crazy. But leave the div alone.
Ian Noble - 08 May 2009 08:42 GMT >> Dear all, >> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >your colleagues are simply wrong in arguing that A) is not a correct >answer. Grammars are models of language, and all models are approximations. As far as the English that I, at least, speak is concerned, your model is not a perfect fit at this point, and the detail therefore not relevant.
To me, the sense of simultaneity in (A) is *too* strong for it to be a sensible answer, absent further detail. It's the same simultaneity that one might meet in, for example, "I shall now juggle five chainsaws while playing this trumpet". It asks the reader to understand that the choir performs multiple songs at one and the same time (not unheard of, but improbable, and likely to have been more explicitly stated, were it genuinely the intended meaning).
(D), by contrast, merely indicates the presence of songs in multiple styles in the choir's active repertoire (a far more reasonable interpretation, and one that you ascribe to (A)).
Whether or not (A) is an acceptable answer to the question facing the OP and colleagues depends on the instructions given on how to answer it (which we are not given). If they were asked to select a grammatically valid answer, then I would have to concede that, yes, (A) meets the criterion. If they were asked to select on other or less specific grounds, though, then (A) is a poor answer because of its likely error of meaning.
Cheers - Ian (BrE: Yorks, Hants.)
Paul Wolff - 08 May 2009 10:11 GMT >On Thu, 07 May 2009 21:47:29 -0400, Robert Lieblich > [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] >specific grounds, though, then (A) is a poor answer because of its >likely error of meaning. He's right, Gloria.
 Signature Paul Thames Valley BrE
Fred - 08 May 2009 22:29 GMT >>On Thu, 07 May 2009 21:47:29 -0400, Robert Lieblich >> [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] >> > He's right, Gloria. If error of meaning is a concern then surely 'while' should be omitted altogether. They sing original and classical songs, also performing songs by modern artists like Enya. Or: They sing original and classical songs and also perform songs by modern artists like Enya
tony cooper - 08 May 2009 22:56 GMT >>>On Thu, 07 May 2009 21:47:29 -0400, Robert Lieblich >>> [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] >They sing original and classical songs and also perform songs by modern >artists like Enya Gloria's choices are limited to the options she gave. It's a "choose one", not a "write the best sentence to convey this idea" test.
The discussion's good, though. She'll probably gain more from the discussion than she'll gain from the test.
 Signature Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Don Phillipson - 08 May 2009 19:47 GMT > >> Libera is a choir of boys, whose ages range from seven to 16. The > >> choir's director, Robert Prizeman, chose the name Libera because it's [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > far as the English that I, at least, speak is concerned, your model is > not a perfect fit at this point, and the detail therefore not relevant. You can cite here one of the last survivors of "law Latin" in everyday English: "de minimis non curat lex." This means that the law does not concern itself with trifling points (and the point about the comma is truly trivial.)
 Signature Don Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada)
Ian Noble - 10 May 2009 05:13 GMT >> >> Libera is a choir of boys, whose ages range from seven to 16. The >> >> choir's director, Robert Prizeman, chose the name Libera because it's [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >You can cite here one of the last survivors of "law Latin" in >everyday English: "de minimis non curat lex." Where I live, they speak of little else.
>This means >that the law does not concern itself with trifling points (and >the point about the comma is truly trivial.) Wisdon on the LBW rule has as much relevance.
Cheers - Ian (BrE - Yorks., Hants.)
Ian Noble - 10 May 2009 05:21 GMT >> >> Libera is a choir of boys, whose ages range from seven to 16. The >> >> choir's director, Robert Prizeman, chose the name Libera because it's [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >that the law does not concern itself with trifling points (and >the point about the comma is truly trivial.) "Wisden" (Ever have one of those moments where you spot a howler just as you press Send?)
Cheers - Ian
Evan Kirshenbaum - 08 May 2009 20:25 GMT >> There is disagreement between my colleagues and me about the answer >> to this blank. Since you have been so helpful and knowledgeble, [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > that the group sings original and classical songs at the same time > (during the same performance) as songs by modern artists. I think that for me the sense of simultaneity in (A) is greater than that. I get a reading of "literally at the same time" (cf "played the guitar while also keeping the beat on the bass drum"), so I would go for (D) for what is probably meant.
 Signature Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Never ascribe to malice that which 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |can adequately be explained by Palo Alto, CA 94304 |stupidity.
kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572
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Marius.Hancu@gmail.com - 09 May 2009 02:13 GMT > I think that for me the sense of simultaneity in (A) is greater than > that. I get a reading of "literally at the same time" (cf "played the > guitar while also keeping the beat on the bass drum"), so I would go > for (D) for what is probably meant. I fully agree. Marius Hancu
Claude Weil - 08 May 2009 06:36 GMT Dear all,
There is disagreement between my colleagues and me about the answer to this blank. Since you have been so helpful and knowledgeble, would you please help me with this one? The text is printed below for your reference.
Libera is a choir of boys, whose ages range from seven to 16. The choir’s director, Robert Prizeman, chose the name Libera because it’s Latin for “free.” He says, “Free is supposed to be a word that sums up what the music is about.” musical stIndeed, their yle is much freer than traditional choirs. They sing original and classical songs ____ also performing songs by modern artists like Enya.
A) while B) , which C) which D), while
Something else distubs me in the sentence, namely "Indeed, their style is much freer than traditional choirs." I shoud very much prefer "Indeed, their style is much freer than that of traditional choirs."
 Signature CW
Athel Cornish-Bowden - 08 May 2009 07:13 GMT > Dear all, > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > A) while B) , which C) which D), while I wouldn't put "which", with or without a comma.
I'm not keen on either of the others, either, as a bare comma (no "while" at all) is quite sufficient. However, many would put (D).
> Something else distubs me in the sentence, namely "Indeed, their style > is much freer > than traditional choirs." I shoud very much prefer "Indeed, their > style is much freer than that of traditional choirs." I agree with your reaction, but this sort of construction is quite common, and doesn't usually lead to any ambiguity.
 Signature athel
Glenn Knickerbocker - 08 May 2009 20:26 GMT > Something else distubs me in the sentence, namely "Indeed, their style > is much freer > than traditional choirs." I shoud very much prefer "Indeed, their > style is much freer than that of traditional choirs." Just put an apostrophe after "choirs" to make it possessive, and the comparison is fixed without any change to the flow of the sentence.
¬R
Fred - 08 May 2009 07:11 GMT Dear all,
There is disagreement between my colleagues and me about the answer to this blank. Since you have been so helpful and knowledgeble, would you please help me with this one? The text is printed below for your reference.
Libera is a choir of boys, whose ages range from seven to 16. The choir’s director, Robert Prizeman, chose the name Libera because it’s Latin for “free.” He says, “Free is supposed to be a word that sums up what the music is about.” Indeed, their musical style is much freer than traditional choirs. They sing original and classical songs ____ also performing songs by modern artists like Enya.
A) while B) , which C) which D), while
The correct answer provided is D, but I've checked several sources and we all think A is also a possible answer. Would you tell me if the comma is optional. Thanks for your timely help. With best regards,
I would put the full-stop *after* the inverted commas in free; the last word of the second sentence. It's not a quote. It is only to emphasize a word in the sentence. "free". But there will be plenty who disagree.
Athel Cornish-Bowden - 08 May 2009 07:22 GMT > [ ... ]
> Libera is a choir of boys, whose ages range from seven to 16. The > choirs director, Robert Prizeman, chose the name Libera because its [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > we all think A is also a possible answer. Would you tell me if the > comma is optional. Thanks for your timely help. With best regards, As I already said in reply to Claude, my preferred answer would be E) ,
However, just a word about the (slight) ambiguity caused by omitting the comma before "while". Those who are making an effort to misunderstand could take "while" to indicate that they were doing the two things simultaneously -- half of the choir singing original and classical songs, the other half performing songs by Enya. Common sense tells you that that is not what is meant, so omitting the comma doesn't do much damage, and even including it doesn't entirely eliminate the possibility of wilful misunderstanding.
 Signature athel
John Varela - 09 May 2009 02:03 GMT > Libera is a choir of boys, whose ages range from seven to 16. The > choirs director, Robert Prizeman, chose the name Libera because its > Latin for free. He says, Free is supposed to be a word that sums up > what the music is about. Indeed, their musical style is much freer > than traditional choirs. They sing original and classical songs ____ > also performing songs by modern artists like Enya. As long as we're talking about commas, why is there a comma in the first sentence?
 Signature John Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email
gloria0402@gmail.com - 09 May 2009 09:24 GMT > Dear all, > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Gloria Thanks so much for all your comments. Now I know I still have so much more to learn in English. The varied opinions also prove that English is becoming a universal language evolving every minute, so there might not be a definite line between right or wrong. I am willing to admit that I am wrong at this, but what bothers me is what comes first: communication or grammatical accuracy? I believe not many people really care that much about the existence of comma as long as we get each other understood. I'm not defedning myself but voicing my opinion about English grammar. And I trully believe the final goal of learning English is to get ourselves across, instead of cramming students' mind with trivial grammatical rules. Guess what an EFL student might think, if he knows even native speakers have different opinions on this test question? Anyway, have a nice day. Regards,
Gloria
HVS - 09 May 2009 12:26 GMT On 09 May 2009, wrote
> On 5$B7n(B8$BF|(B, $B>e8a(B9$B;~(B39$BJ,(B, gloria > <gloria0...@gmail.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > bothers me is what comes first: communication or grammatical > accuracy? Very often the two aspects are inseparable: communication is certainly primary, but in a lot of cases it's erroneous grammar that destroys communication.
> I believe not many people really care that much about > the existence of comma as long as we get each other understood. > I'm not defedning myself but voicing my opinion about English > grammar. And I trully believe the final goal of learning English > is to get ourselves across, instead of cramming students' mind > with trivial grammatical rules. *Trivial* grammar rules, yes. "Grammar" in general, though, usually works hand-in-hand with communication: it's not a zero-sum choice.
 Signature Cheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed
BMCT2010 - 15 May 2009 22:03 GMT > Dear all, > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Gloria The comma in the sentence is optional.
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