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Is the comma here 'optional' or 'a must'

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gloria - 08 May 2009 02:39 GMT
Dear all,

There is disagreement between my colleagues and me about the answer to
this blank. Since you have been so helpful and knowledgeble, would you
please help me with this one?  The text is printed below for your
reference.

Libera is a choir of boys, whose ages range from seven to 16. The
choir’s director, Robert Prizeman, chose the name Libera because it’s
Latin for “free.” He says, “Free is supposed to be a word that sums up
what the music is about.” Indeed, their musical style is much freer
than traditional choirs. They sing original and classical songs ____
also performing songs by modern artists like Enya.

A) while    B) , which   C) which   D), while

The correct answer provided is D, but I've checked several sources and
we all think A is also a possible answer. Would you tell me if the
comma is optional. Thanks for your timely help. With best regards,

Gloria
Robert Lieblich - 08 May 2009 02:47 GMT
> Dear all,
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> we all think A is also a possible answer. Would you tell me if the
> comma is optional. Thanks for your timely help.

I see no difference whatever in acceptability between A) and D).
"While" is a preposition, not a relative pronoun, so the old rule
about using no commas with defining clauses but using commas with
non-defining clauses does not apply.  Indeed, I would argue, to the
extent that any nuance is involved, that A) is the superior answer,
because it more strongly creates a sense of simultaneity -- that is,
that the group sings original and classical songs at the same time
(during the same performance) as songs by modern artists.

On the basic question, though, there is no question in my mind that
your colleagues are simply wrong in arguing that A) is not a correct
answer.

Signature

Bob Lieblich
Who gets his classical songs from compace discs

Patok - 08 May 2009 03:01 GMT
>> Dear all,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> that the group sings original and classical songs at the same time
> (during the same performance) as songs by modern artists.

     Maybe it is my non-native language sense, but I perceive answers
A) and D) as having different meanings. As you say, A) creates a sense
of simultaneity, while D) creates a sense of contrast. I perceive the
meaning of the sentence formed with D):

"They sing original and classical songs, while also performing songs by
modern artists like Enya."

as being equivalent to the meaning of:

"They sing original and classical songs, but also perform songs by
modern artists like Enya."

Signature

You'd be crazy to e-mail me with the crazy. But leave the div alone.

Ian Noble - 08 May 2009 08:42 GMT
>> Dear all,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>your colleagues are simply wrong in arguing that A) is not a correct
>answer.

Grammars are models of language, and all models are approximations. As
far as the English that I, at least, speak is concerned, your model is
not a perfect fit at this point, and the detail therefore not
relevant.

To me, the sense of simultaneity in (A) is *too* strong for it to be a
sensible answer, absent further detail. It's the same simultaneity
that one might meet in, for example, "I shall now juggle five
chainsaws while playing this trumpet". It asks the reader to
understand that the choir performs multiple songs at one and the same
time (not unheard of, but improbable, and likely to have been more
explicitly stated, were it genuinely the intended meaning).

(D), by contrast, merely indicates the presence of songs in multiple
styles in the choir's active repertoire (a far more reasonable
interpretation, and one that you ascribe to (A)).

Whether or not (A) is an acceptable answer to the question facing the
OP and colleagues depends on the instructions given on how to answer
it (which we are not given). If they were asked to select a
grammatically valid answer, then I would have to concede that, yes,
(A) meets the criterion. If they were asked to select on other or less
specific grounds, though, then (A) is a poor answer because of its
likely error of meaning.

Cheers - Ian
(BrE: Yorks, Hants.)
Paul Wolff - 08 May 2009 10:11 GMT
>On Thu, 07 May 2009 21:47:29 -0400, Robert Lieblich
>
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
>specific grounds, though, then (A) is a poor answer because of its
>likely error of meaning.

He's right, Gloria.
Signature

Paul
Thames Valley BrE

Fred - 08 May 2009 22:29 GMT
>>On Thu, 07 May 2009 21:47:29 -0400, Robert Lieblich
>>
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
>>
> He's right, Gloria.

If error of meaning is a concern then surely 'while' should be omitted
altogether.
They sing original and classical songs, also performing songs by modern
artists like Enya.
Or:
They sing original and classical songs and also perform songs by modern
artists like Enya
tony cooper - 08 May 2009 22:56 GMT
>>>On Thu, 07 May 2009 21:47:29 -0400, Robert Lieblich
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 50 lines]
>They sing original and classical songs and also perform songs by modern
>artists like Enya

Gloria's choices are limited to the options she gave.  It's a "choose
one", not a "write the best sentence to convey this idea" test.

The discussion's good, though.  She'll probably gain more from the
discussion than she'll gain from the test.

Signature

Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

Don Phillipson - 08 May 2009 19:47 GMT
> >> Libera is a choir of boys, whose ages range from seven to 16. The
> >> choir's director, Robert Prizeman, chose the name Libera because it's
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> far as the English that I, at least, speak is concerned, your model is
> not a perfect fit at this point, and the detail therefore not relevant.

You can cite here one of the last survivors of "law Latin" in
everyday English:  "de minimis non curat lex."   This means
that the law does not concern itself with trifling points (and
the point about the comma is truly trivial.)

Signature

Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

Ian Noble - 10 May 2009 05:13 GMT
>> >> Libera is a choir of boys, whose ages range from seven to 16. The
>> >> choir's director, Robert Prizeman, chose the name Libera because it's
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>You can cite here one of the last survivors of "law Latin" in
>everyday English:  "de minimis non curat lex."

Where I live, they speak of little else.

>This means
>that the law does not concern itself with trifling points (and
>the point about the comma is truly trivial.)

Wisdon on the LBW rule has as much relevance.

Cheers - Ian
(BrE - Yorks., Hants.)
Ian Noble - 10 May 2009 05:21 GMT
>> >> Libera is a choir of boys, whose ages range from seven to 16. The
>> >> choir's director, Robert Prizeman, chose the name Libera because it's
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>that the law does not concern itself with trifling points (and
>the point about the comma is truly trivial.)

"Wisden" (Ever have one of those moments where you spot a howler just
as you press Send?)

Cheers - Ian
Evan Kirshenbaum - 08 May 2009 20:25 GMT
>> There is disagreement between my colleagues and me about the answer
>> to this blank. Since you have been so helpful and knowledgeble,
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> that the group sings original and classical songs at the same time
> (during the same performance) as songs by modern artists.

I think that for me the sense of simultaneity in (A) is greater than
that.  I get a reading of "literally at the same time" (cf "played the
guitar while also keeping the beat on the bass drum"), so I would go
for (D) for what is probably meant.

Signature

Evan Kirshenbaum                       +------------------------------------
   HP Laboratories                    |Never ascribe to malice that which
   1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141   |can adequately be explained by
   Palo Alto, CA  94304               |stupidity.

   kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com
   (650)857-7572

   http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

Marius.Hancu@gmail.com - 09 May 2009 02:13 GMT
> I think that for me the sense of simultaneity in (A) is greater than
> that.  I get a reading of "literally at the same time" (cf "played the
> guitar while also keeping the beat on the bass drum"), so I would go
> for (D) for what is probably meant.

I fully agree.
Marius Hancu
Claude Weil - 08 May 2009 06:36 GMT
Dear all,

There is disagreement between my colleagues and me about the answer to
this blank. Since you have been so helpful and knowledgeble, would you
please help me with this one?  The text is printed below for your
reference.

Libera is a choir of boys, whose ages range from seven to 16. The
choir’s director, Robert Prizeman, chose the name Libera because it’s
Latin for “free.” He says, “Free is supposed to be a word that sums up
what the music is about.” musical stIndeed, their yle is much freer
than traditional choirs. They sing original and classical songs ____
also performing songs by modern artists like Enya.

A) while    B) , which   C) which   D), while

Something else distubs me in the sentence, namely "Indeed, their style
is much freer
than traditional choirs." I shoud very much prefer "Indeed, their
style is much freer than that of traditional choirs."

Signature

CW

Athel Cornish-Bowden - 08 May 2009 07:13 GMT
> Dear all,
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> A) while    B) , which   C) which   D), while

I wouldn't put "which", with or without a comma.

I'm not keen on either of the others, either, as a bare comma (no
"while" at all) is quite sufficient. However, many would put (D).

> Something else distubs me in the sentence, namely "Indeed, their style
> is much freer
> than traditional choirs." I shoud very much prefer "Indeed, their
> style is much freer than that of traditional choirs."

I agree with your reaction, but this sort of construction is quite
common, and doesn't usually lead to any ambiguity.
Signature

athel

Glenn Knickerbocker - 08 May 2009 20:26 GMT
> Something else distubs me in the sentence, namely "Indeed, their style
> is much freer
> than traditional choirs." I shoud very much prefer "Indeed, their
> style is much freer than that of traditional choirs."

Just put an apostrophe after "choirs" to make it possessive, and the
comparison is fixed without any change to the flow of the sentence.

¬R
Fred - 08 May 2009 07:11 GMT
Dear all,

There is disagreement between my colleagues and me about the answer to
this blank. Since you have been so helpful and knowledgeble, would you
please help me with this one?  The text is printed below for your
reference.

Libera is a choir of boys, whose ages range from seven to 16. The
choir’s director, Robert Prizeman, chose the name Libera because it’s
Latin for “free.” He says, “Free is supposed to be a word that sums up
what the music is about.” Indeed, their musical style is much freer
than traditional choirs. They sing original and classical songs ____
also performing songs by modern artists like Enya.

A) while    B) , which   C) which   D), while

The correct answer provided is D, but I've checked several sources and
we all think A is also a possible answer. Would you tell me if the
comma is optional. Thanks for your timely help. With best regards,

I would put the full-stop *after* the inverted commas in free; the last word
of the second sentence.  It's not a quote. It is only to emphasize a word in
the sentence. "free".  But there will be plenty who disagree.
Athel Cornish-Bowden - 08 May 2009 07:22 GMT
> [ ... ]

> Libera is a choir of boys, whose ages range from seven to 16. The
> choir’s director, Robert Prizeman, chose the name Libera because it’s
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> we all think A is also a possible answer. Would you tell me if the
> comma is optional. Thanks for your timely help. With best regards,

As I already said in reply to Claude, my preferred answer would be E) ,

However, just a word about the (slight) ambiguity caused by omitting
the comma before "while". Those who are making an effort to
misunderstand could take "while" to indicate that they were doing the
two things simultaneously -- half of the choir singing original and
classical songs, the other half performing songs by Enya. Common sense
tells you that that is not what is meant, so omitting the comma doesn't
do much damage, and even including it doesn't entirely eliminate the
possibility of wilful misunderstanding.

Signature

athel

John Varela - 09 May 2009 02:03 GMT
> Libera is a choir of boys, whose ages range from seven to 16. The
> choirs director, Robert Prizeman, chose the name Libera because its
> Latin for free. He says, Free is supposed to be a word that sums up
> what the music is about. Indeed, their musical style is much freer
> than traditional choirs. They sing original and classical songs ____
> also performing songs by modern artists like Enya.

As long as we're talking about commas, why is there a comma in the
first sentence?

Signature

John Varela
Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email

gloria0402@gmail.com - 09 May 2009 09:24 GMT
> Dear all,
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Gloria

Thanks so much for all your comments. Now I know I still have so much
more to learn in English. The varied opinions also prove that English
is becoming a universal language evolving every minute, so there might
not be a definite line between right or wrong. I am willing to admit
that I am wrong at this, but what bothers me is what comes first:
communication or grammatical accuracy? I believe not many people
really care that much about the existence of comma as long as we get
each other understood. I'm not defedning myself but voicing my opinion
about English grammar. And I trully believe the final goal of learning
English is to get ourselves across, instead of cramming students' mind
with trivial grammatical rules. Guess what an EFL student might think,
if he knows even native speakers have different opinions on this test
question? Anyway, have a nice day. Regards,

Gloria
HVS - 09 May 2009 12:26 GMT
On 09 May 2009,  wrote

> On 5$B7n(B8$BF|(B, $B>e8a(B9$B;~(B39$BJ,(B, gloria
> <gloria0...@gmail.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> bothers me is what comes first: communication or grammatical
> accuracy?

Very often the two aspects are inseparable:  communication is
certainly primary, but in a lot of cases it's erroneous grammar
that destroys communication.

> I believe not many people really care that much about
> the existence of comma as long as we get each other understood.
> I'm not defedning myself but voicing my opinion about English
> grammar. And I trully believe the final goal of learning English
> is to get ourselves across, instead of cramming students' mind
> with trivial grammatical rules.

*Trivial* grammar rules, yes.  "Grammar" in general, though,
usually works hand-in-hand with communication:  it's not a zero-sum
choice.

Signature

Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed

BMCT2010 - 15 May 2009 22:03 GMT
> Dear all,
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Gloria

The comma in the sentence is optional.
 
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