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Discussion Groups / English Usage / May 2009English remarks of Scots used in a derogatory sense.
I am reading a book "Being English in Scotland". The author claims about English settlers that "The language used to describe these settlers has been on occasion intemperate, and, at times, insulting. Amongst a lexicon of epithets discovered..... were: white settlers, interluopers, bonglies, guffies, cash crofters, '87 Crash refugees, Sassenachs, dropouts, and FEBs (f.cking English Bastards) (ibid.p.1)" What I would like to know is, what kinds of pejoratives are used by BrE speakers about the Scots, especially the Scots settled down in England? I just need at few words and preferable a link or a reference to an issue about this if possible. > I am reading a book "Being English in Scotland". The author claims about > English settlers that > "The language used to describe these settlers has been on occasion > intemperate, and, at times, insulting. Amongst a lexicon of epithets > discovered..... were: white settlers, interluopers, bonglies, guffies, > cash crofters, '87 Crash refugees, Sassenachs, dropouts, and FEBs > (f.cking English Bastards) (ibid.p.1)" > What I would like to know is, what kinds of pejoratives are used by BrE > speakers about the Scots, especially the Scots settled down in England? > I just need at few words and preferable a link or a reference to an > issue about this if possible. 1) Samuel Johnson's Dictionary (1755), from memory: Oats: A grain, in England generally given to horses, which in Scotland supports the people. 2) The old characterisation of the four nations of Britain (works both ways!): The Englishman is a self-made man who worships his Creator. The Welshman prays on his knees on a Sunday, and preys on his fellow-men for the rest of the week. The Irishman has no principles, and is prepared to die for them. The Scotsman keeps the Sabbath, and everything else that he can lay his hands on. I now expect a terrorist bomb any day. With best wishes, Peter.  SignaturePeter Young, (BrE), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004. (US equivalent: Attending Anesthesiologist) Now happily retired. Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk >> I am reading a book "Being English in Scotland". The author claims >> about [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > I now expect a terrorist bomb any day. Thank you - I think this will contribute to the essay I am writing. > "Arne H. Wilstrup" <ahw> wrote: > > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > Thank you - I think this will contribute to the essay I am writing. As somebody has said, this isn't a symetrical relationship; the Scots generally are said to loathe the English, while most English people quite like the Scots and Scotland. Certainly they're thought to be level headed, trustworthy and good with money - something Gordon Brown was able to play on until recently and possibly the reason many call centres, including the main one for my own bank, are based in Scotland and have advisors who are clearly locals. DC -- >> "Arne H. Wilstrup" <ahw> wrote: >> > [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] >centres, including the main one for my own bank, are based in Scotland >and have advisors who are clearly locals. I feel that Doctors Finlay and Cameron may have lulled us English into a false sense of security. <http://www.televisionheaven.co.uk/finlay.htm> SignatureIan > >>"Arne H. Wilstrup" <ahw> wrote: > > > > [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > into a false sense of security. > <http://www.televisionheaven.co.uk/finlay.htm> I told Andrew Cruickshank to F off many years ago. Maybe that's something to do with it. DC -- > I now expect a terrorist bomb any day. SCOTLAND From: f.ck Scotland, a self-published book of poems by Francis Gallagher. THE BARRENNESS OF HOME Scotland is a miserable sodden third-rate sexually repressed backward shithole of a country where everyone has to pretend to appreciate every minute of their sterile defeated life the burden of lying chills the soul oh for just once to tell the truth and say I hate this phony country & the people with their shabby spoor of tribal myths about their own ineffable greatness Scots adore themselves but it's hard to see why they so love themselves a bankrupt politics predictable mediocre culture a failed sad people pouring their soul into alcohol football celebrations of their sentimental heart my country is me I am my people and my loyalty is to my instinctive intelligence that tells me all this Scottish stuff is pure sh.t CHIPS Scotland is the petrified vomit of a fish supper HOMAGE TO SCOTLAND I'd like to drop an atom bomb on the f.cking Highlands that would stop their whining being Scottish is like having sex with a dead camel or the editor of a poetry magazine Signature"All of life's riddles are answered in the movies." - Steve Martin >> I now expect a terrorist bomb any day. > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > appreciate > every minute of their sterile defeated life cf Mark Renton: It's SHITE being Scottish! We're the lowest of the low. The scum of the f.cking Earth! The most wretched, miserable, servile, pathetic trash that was ever shat into civilization. Some hate the English. I don't. They're just w.nkers. We, on the other hand, are COLONIZED by w.nkers. Can't even find a decent culture to be colonized BY. We're ruled by effete a.sholes. It's a SHITE state of affairs to be in, Tommy, and ALL the fresh air in the world won't make any f.cking difference! And Peter could have added Dr Johnson's other gem about Scotland: Norway, too, has noble wild prospects; and Lapland is remarkable for prodigious noble wild prospects. But, Sir, let me tell you, the noblest prospect which a Scotchman ever sees, is the high road that leads him to England! But pejoratives by the English about the Scots? Rare indeed. The worst you will generally hear is that they are called 'Jocks', though it is also popular to make jokes about meanness (alleged) and to do an atrocious Glasgow accent for the "See you Jummy" routine. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford >>> I now expect a terrorist bomb any day. >> [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > also popular to make jokes about meanness (alleged) and to do an > atrocious Glasgow accent for the "See you Jummy" routine. Thank you - it seems that there are more pejoratives against the English (BrE) from the Scots' side than the other way round. >>>> I now expect a terrorist bomb any day. >>> [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] >Thank you - it seems that there are more pejoratives against the English >(BrE) from the Scots' side than the other way round. Well, I'm in the US where my high school world history course did spend more time on the UK than on other parts of the world (We had to memorize all the kings and queens.) but it was still brief. Nonetheless: Didn't England conquer Scotland? I would think the Scots would have disliked that. I think that accounts for the greater number of perjoratives in one direction. SignaturePosters should say where they live, and for which area they are asking questions. I have lived in Western Pa. 10 years Indianapolis 10 years Chicago 6 years Brooklyn, NY 12 years Baltimore 26 years > Nonetheless: Didn't England conquer Scotland? I would think the Scots > would have disliked that. I think that accounts for the greater > number of perjoratives in one direction. This might be one of the explanations - I think you have a point here. The Scots and English have something in common too, I should think: The weather. Thank you for pointing me into that direction of the conquering. I missed that part to the contribution of the stereotypes of Scots and Brits (sorry -no offending intended) >>>>> I now expect a terrorist bomb any day. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > would have disliked that. I think that accounts for the greater > number of perjoratives in one direction. I don't think the Scots believe that they were 'conquered' in any accepted sense of the word. And I don't think many English would claim it either. After many centuries of conflict and co-existence, a King of Scotland became also King of England and an unofficial union ensued which, a century later, became a formal Union and the origin of the United Kingdom. The Scots have certainly felt they were the junior partner in the Union and that their wishes were rarely taken into account. And there's quite a strong sentiment for dissolving the Union these days. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford >> Well, I'm in the US where my high school world history course did >> spend more time on the UK than on other parts of the world (We had to [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >I don't think the Scots believe that they were 'conquered' in any accepted What did they believe when the derogatory words arose? >sense of the word. And I don't think many English would claim it either. >After many centuries of conflict and co-existence, a King of Scotland became >also King of England and an unofficial union ensued which, a century later, >became a formal Union and the origin of the United Kingdom. We have a black President of the United States too, but that doesnt' change history. I'm not there and I have no idea what they believe. I once sat next to a Scot on an airplane for several hours, but we failed to cover this topic. That's all I know first hand. >The Scots have certainly felt they were the junior partner in the Union and >that their wishes were rarely taken into account. And there's quite a strong >sentiment for dissolving the Union these days. SignaturePosters should say where they live, and for which area they are asking questions. I have lived in Western Pa. 10 years Indianapolis 10 years Chicago 6 years Brooklyn, NY 12 years Baltimore 26 years On 11 May 2009, mm wrote >>> Well, I'm in the US where my high school world history course >>> did spend more time on the UK than on other parts of the world [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > What did they believe when the derogatory words arose? That they'd been sold down the river by their governing class, I think. SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed >On 11 May 2009, mm wrote > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >That they'd been sold down the river by their governing class, I >think. That they blamed other Scots, rather than the English? Again I know almost none of the facts, but just looking at the form, the silhouette of the facts, a sample plot-line, this sounds like something only perhaps their intellectual elite would think. Or something the English would think the Scots think. SignaturePosters should say where they live, and for which area they are asking questions. I have lived in Western Pa. 10 years Indianapolis 10 years Chicago 6 years Brooklyn, NY 12 years Baltimore 26 years On 12 May 2009, mm wrote >> On 11 May 2009, mm wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > That they blamed other Scots, rather than the English? I think it was more that it was seen as an act of "those in charge" who were traitors -- as opposed to some sort of "English conquerors". It's the concept of "conquered" that doesn't work. The Scots don't, as far as I know, consider themselves to have been conquered in any way. Betrayed and oppressed, certainly, with their rebellions brutally put down -- the latter acknowledged (by the few Scots I've discussed it with) to have been by other Scots working with the hated English -- but not "conquered". SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed >On 12 May 2009, mm wrote > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >Scots I've discussed it with) to have been by other Scots working >with the hated English -- but not "conquered". Surely it is the English who have been conquered (by stealth) by the Scots? After all, we British have a Scottish Prime Minister, and a Scottish Chancellor of the Exchequer. You don't get much more "We're in charge" than that. SignatureIan >>On 12 May 2009, mm wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] >Scottish Chancellor of the Exchequer. You don't get much more "We're in >charge" than that. Oh, and I forgot to mention that the Speaker of The House of Commons (the guy who decides who may speak and who may not) is also Scottish. "We're definitely in charge!" SignatureIan On 12 May 2009, Ian Jackson wrote >>> On 12 May 2009, mm wrote >>> [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > Commons (the guy who decides who may speak and who may not) is > also Scottish. "We're definitely in charge!" Not sure for how much longer; old Gorbals Mick appears today to be in as much trouble as the rest of his brethren. (A very weak Speaker, this one.) SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed >On 12 May 2009, Ian Jackson wrote > [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] >in as much trouble as the rest of his brethren. (A very weak >Speaker, this one.) Bring back the Welsh guy. Even though he's dead, he'd still make a better job of it than the present one. <http://www.derbydeadpool.co.uk/deadpool1997/obits/tonypandy.html> Or the lady who was once one of the Tiller Girls dancers. <http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/april/27/newsid_2502000 /2502597.stm> SignatureIan > Oh, and I forgot to mention that the Speaker of The House of Commons > (the guy who decides who may speak and who may not) is also Scottish. > "We're definitely in charge!" Not to mention the Battle of Preston Pans at which a putative ancestor of mine was court-marshalled (or the equivalent) for running away. The only British general who can claim this honour. And Robbie Burns (as opposed to Rabbi Burns) wrote a song about it: Johnnie Cope (Robert Burns) Sir John Cope trode the north right far, Yet ne'er a rebel he cam naur, Until he landed at Dunbar Right early in a morning. CHORUS Hey Johnie Cope are ye wauking yet, Or are ye sleeping I would wit: O haste ye get up for the drums do beat, Of fye Cope rise in the morning. He wrote a challenge for Dunbar, Come fight me Charlie an ye daur; If it be not by the chance of war I'll give you a merry morning. When Charlie look'd the letter upon He drew his sword and scabbard from- "So Heaven restore to me my own, I'll meet you, Cope, in the morning." Cope swore with many a bloody word That he would fight them gun and sword, But he fled frae his nest like an ill scar'd bird, And Johnie he took wing in the morning. It was upon an afternoon, Sir Johnie march'd to Preston town; He says, "my lads come lean you down, And we'll fight the boys in the morning." But when he saw the Highland lads Wi' tartan trews and white cokauds, Wi' swords and guns and rungs and gauds, O Johnie he took wing in the morning. On the morrow when he did rise, He look'd between him and the skies; He saw them wi' their naked thighs, Which fear'd him in the morning. O then he flew into Dunbar, Crying for a man of war; He thought to have pass'd for a rustic tar, And gotten awa in the morning. Sir Johnie into Berwick rade, Just as the devil had been his guide; Gien him the warld he would na stay'd To foughten the boys in the morning. Says the Berwickers unto Sir John, O what's become of all your men, In faith, says he, I dinna ken, I left them a' this morning. Says Lord Mark Car, ye are na blate, To bring us the news o' your ain defeat; I think you deserve the back o' the gate, Get out o' my sight this morning. Signature"All of life's riddles are answered in the movies." - Steve Martin >> Oh, and I forgot to mention that the Speaker of The House of Commons >> (the guy who decides who may speak and who may not) is also Scottish. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >O haste ye get up for the drums do beat, >Of fye Cope rise in the morning. Did Robby Burns really write this? SignatureIan >>> Oh, and I forgot to mention that the Speaker of The House of Commons >>> (the guy who decides who may speak and who may not) is also Scottish. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > >Did Robby Burns really write this? The Rampant Scotland website has no mention of an author: http://www.rampantscotland.com/songs/blsongs_cope.htm Traditional Scottish Songs - Johnnie Cope As the Jacobite army advanced south in 1745, a Hanoverian force, led by Sir John Cope, was in pursuit. Bonnie Prince Charlie reached Edinburgh first, however, and Cope assembled his troops to the south, at Prestonpans, waiting for reinforcements. But the wily [1] Jacobite commander Lord George Murray circled round and launched a surprise attack early one morning and routed the government forces, some say in less than 15 minutes. This Jacobite song recalls this famous victory. Ocher songs have the author named where known. [1] No doubt if this standard military manoeuvre had failed very different epithets would have been applied to the commander. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.english.usage) ["Johnnie Cope"] > >Did Robby Burns really write this? > The Rampant Scotland website has no mention of an author: > http://www.rampantscotland.com/songs/blsongs_cope.htm Wikipedia, citing _Enc.Brit._ (11th ed.), attributes the song to Adam Skirving, 1719-1803. A reconciliation of some kind may be possible: Burns collected many traditional songs, resetting or rewriting some, so he might have had a hand in the best-known (or a well-known) version. > Traditional Scottish Songs > - Johnnie Cope [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > [1] No doubt if this standard military manoeuvre had failed very > different epithets would have been applied to the commander. Only if the Rising had ended then and there, I should think. Lord George Murray continued to demonstrate superior generalship in several further actions, and the disaster of Culloden was to some extent a consequence of his estrangement from the Young Pretender following the retreat from England, the Prince mostly ceasing to take his advice -- whether strategic or tactical -- during the last few months of the rebellion. He also understood the Highlanders and was respected by their chiefs, neither of which can be said of Prince Charlie or his entourage. SignatureOdysseus > Did Robby Burns really write this? Robbie Burns did. Signature"All of life's riddles are answered in the movies." - Steve Martin > > Did Robby Burns really write this? > > Robbie Burns did. Addendum: As far as I know. I wouldn't bet on it, however. Signature"All of life's riddles are answered in the movies." - Steve Martin > > > Oh, and I forgot to mention that the Speaker of The House of > > > Commons (the guy who decides who may speak and who may not) is [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Did Robby Burns really write this? 'He saw them wi' their naked thighs, Which fear'd him in the morning.' I think we've all felt that, sometimes. My money's on Scotland's other national poet. DC -- >> > > Oh, and I forgot to mention that the Speaker of The House of >> > > Commons (the guy who decides who may speak and who may not) is [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > >My money's on Scotland's other national poet. Not William Topaz McGonagall, surely?? SignatureIan > > > In message > > > <copespaz-38552C.09450312052009@mara100-84.onlink.net>, MC [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > > Not William Topaz McGonagall, surely?? That's the fella. Much underestimated. DC -- [...] > Oh, and I forgot to mention that the Speaker of The House of Commons > (the guy who decides who may speak and who may not) is also Scottish. > "We're definitely in charge!" Reminds me of the story (which I've related here before, but no matter) of the professor at a Scottish university who made a grand tour of English universities. On his return, he was asked by his fellow professors how he had found the English. He replied that he couldn't answer that because he had spoken only with heads of departments. SignatureLes (BrE) On 12 May 2009, Leslie Danks wrote > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > replied that he couldn't answer that because he had spoken only > with heads of departments. Very true -- there are certainly a lot of proud Scots who've decided to live somewhere other than Scotland... SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed > On 12 May 2009, Leslie Danks wrote > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Very true -- there are certainly a lot of proud Scots who've decided > to live somewhere other than Scotland... Aye, the English have always needed people to run the power stations over Christmas. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford >> On 12 May 2009, mm wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > Scots? After all, we British have a Scottish Prime Minister, and a > Scottish Chancellor of the Exchequer. Not for much longer SignatureJohn Dean Oxford >>> On 12 May 2009, mm wrote >>> [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > >Not for much longer There doesn't appear to be a mechanism to prevent them from hanging on to the bitter end, and that end could become really bitter. How someone like Gorbals Mick got to be Speaker is almost beyond comprehension. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England > > On 11 May 2009, mm wrote > > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > something only perhaps their intellectual elite would think. Or > something the English would think the Scots think. National poet Robert Burns would definitely not have considered himself part of the intellectual elite - he very much clung to his poor farming origins. Here's what Burns had to say, though - the last two lines are very often quoted: What force or guile could not subdue Thro' many warlike ages Is wrought now by a coward few For hireling traitor's wages. The English steel we could disdain, Secure in valour's station; But English gold has been our bane -- Such a parcel of rogues in a nation! O, would, or I had seen the day That Treason thus could sell us, My auld grey head had lien in clay Wi' Bruce and loyal Wallace! But pith and power, till my last hour I'll mak this declaration :- 'We're bought and sold for English gold'-- Such a parcel of rogues in a nation! More about this at http://www.parliament.uk/actofunion/09_bribery.html DC -- >>>> I now expect a terrorist bomb any day. >>> [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > Thank you - it seems that there are more pejoratives against the > English (BrE) from the Scots' side than the other way round. Indeed. Some years ago we were on a cross-channel ferry, sitting in the bar. A couple of tables away was a group of young Scots. They were coming back from some unsuccessful soccer foray into mainland Europe and generally wailing and bemoaning their fate. Until one of the party cheered up the rest by remarking "Ay, well, at least we're no' fuckin' English". SignatureJohn Dean Oxford >> Thank you - it seems that there are more pejoratives against the >> English (BrE) from the Scots' side than the other way round. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > cheered up the rest by remarking "Ay, well, at least we're no' fuckin' > English". :-) >I am reading a book "Being English in Scotland". The author claims about >English settlers that [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > just need at few words and preferable a link or a reference to an issue > about this if possible. I know this isn't what you are after, but having been brought up in London and still living in the South, I'm not aware of any slang terms used to refer to Scots (whether living down here or not) other than "Scots". The only Scots I know are nice people. I'm only saying this because I wouldn't want anyone to get the false impression that the English have it in for or dislike the Scots (and I would like to think it works both ways.) Whlist I'm sure there are exceptions, they would be the exception and not the rule. SignatureBrian Cryer www.cryer.co.uk/brian On 11 May 2009, Brian Cryer wrote >> I am reading a book "Being English in Scotland". The author >> claims about English settlers that [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > slang terms used to refer to Scots (whether living down here or > not) other than "Scots". There's "jocks" and the rhyming slang of "sweaty socks", but neither of those are particularly abusive. > I'm only saying this because I wouldn't want anyone to get the > false impression that the English have it in for or dislike the > Scots (and I would like to think it works both ways.) Whlist I'm > sure there are exceptions, they would be the exception and not > the rule. Now, the Welsh -- that's another matter entirely. SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed > On 11 May 2009, Brian Cryer wrote > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > Now, the Welsh -- that's another matter entirely. Thank you for your contribution. It is very welcome here. >>I am reading a book "Being English in Scotland". The author claims >>about English settlers that [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > would like to think it works both ways.) Whlist I'm sure there are > exceptions, they would be the exception and not the rule. Thank you for your contribution. <snip> > What I would like to know is, what kinds of pejoratives are used by BrE > speakers about the Scots, especially the Scots settled down in England? > I just need at few words and preferable a link or a reference to an > issue about this if possible. Not quite what you're looking for, but I remember quite vividly an incident from a visit to England around 1970. At a suburban railway station near London the announcer had a noticeable (but not especially thick) Scottish accent; on hearing one of the notices someone on the platform shouted "Speak white, will yer!" I don't suppose, however, that his reaction would have been any different to a Welsh or Irish voice, let alone (God forbid) an Indian or African one. SignatureOdysseus > I am reading a book "Being English in Scotland". The author claims about > English settlers that [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I just need at few words and preferable a link or a reference to an > issue about this if possible. The English are ingratiated bastards. On May 10, 12:34 pm, "Arne H. Wilstrup" <ahw> wrote: > I am reading a book "Being English in Scotland". The author claims > about [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I just need at few words and preferable a link or a reference to an > issue about this if possible. The English are ingratiated bastards. *you missed my point: not the Scots pejoratives and stereotypes about the English, but the other way round. How do the Scots perceive the English? Especially what stereotypes do the English use about the Scots. The Scots might say "they are f.cking English Bastards" which is a pejorative, but they might also say "Stiff uppperlip and all that" just like the English might focus on the "r's" with a exaggerated rolling tongue: "verrrrry". This is the kind of stuff I am looking for. >> What I would like to know is, what kinds of pejoratives are used by >> BrE >> speakers about the Scots, especially the Scots settled down in >> England? >> I just need at few words and preferable a link or a reference to an >> issue about this if possible. > How do the Scots perceive the English? Especially what stereotypes do > the English use about the Scots. The Scots might say "they are f.cking > English Bastards" which is a pejorative, but they might also say > "Stiff uppperlip and all that" just like the English might focus on > the "r's" with a exaggerated rolling tongue: "verrrrry". This is the > kind of stuff I am looking for. I'm not sure anyone has attempted to answer your question. There are very many Scots settled in England - probably far more, proportionately, than Englishmen settled in Scotland. Being Scottish in England is not particularly remarkable, and therefore does not attract persecution, comment or ridicule in quite the same way. Part of the Scottish frustration at the English is that Scots feel ignored, rather than persecuted. However, stereotypes of the Scot do exist (I emphasise I do not subscribe to them): - meanness (with money): hence the taxi joke. In the same way that other nationalities accuse the Dutch of meanness. Aberdeen is supposed to be the seat of the mean Scotsman. The more positive aspect of the stereotye is being "canny" - careful or even clever with money. - drunkeness, often coupled with aggression - especially in Glasgow. Glasgow did seem to have a problem with homeless alcoholics at one time. Personified by the TV comedy character Rab C. Nesbitt. The agression is reflected in the "Glasgow kiss" (a head-butt). Also associated with supposed Glaswegian dialect such as calling everyone Jimmy or Pal. - the Highland stereotype - wearing traditional dress (kilt and sporan), using phrases like "och aye the noo", playing the bagpipes and tossing the caber. Extends to the Robbie Burns stereotype, speaking incomprehensible Scots dialect. - the inferiority complex reflected in Scottish nationalism - feeling persecuted and hard done by and hating the English, despite benefitting hugely from union with England and subsidies from English and European taxpayers. Scots watching an international football tournament will generally support anyone playing against England. Englishmen, on the other hand, will generally support Scotland against any third nation - if only because it annoys the Scots. Chris R >>> What I would like to know is, what kinds of pejoratives are used by >>> BrE [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] >generally support Scotland against any third nation - if only because it >annoys the Scots. An excellent analysis of the situation! SignatureIan > I am reading a book "Being English in Scotland". The author claims about > English settlers that [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I just need at few words and preferable a link or a reference to an > issue about this if possible. 2 taxis collided in Glasgow......28 people were injured..... On May 10, 6:34 pm, "Arne H. Wilstrup" <ahw> wrote: > I am reading a book "Being English in Scotland". The author claims > about [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I just need at few words and preferable a link or a reference to an > issue about this if possible. 2 taxis collided in Glasgow......28 people were injured..... *How is this a stereotype about the Scots? - sorry, I am a foreigner and might not be aware of the local humour here, so please explain. >On May 10, 6:34 pm, "Arne H. Wilstrup" <ahw> wrote: >> I am reading a book "Being English in Scotland". The author claims [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >*How is this a stereotype about the Scots? - sorry, I am a foreigner and >might not be aware of the local humour here, so please explain. Can some nations be stereotyped as being unable to understand fairly obvious jokes? It's worth pointing out that his joke could be told by a Scotsman - but not one from Glasgow. Typically, someone from Edinburgh or Aberdeen might tell. More likely, someone from Glasgow or Edinburgh might tell it about two taxis in Aberdeen (a city renowned for its 'tight-fistedness'). Or is that Dundee? SignatureIan >>On May 10, 6:34 pm, "Arne H. Wilstrup" <ahw> wrote: >>> I am reading a book "Being English in Scotland". The author claims [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Can some nations be stereotyped as being unable to understand fairly > obvious jokes? I don't think so - the joke, which I still don't understand, but I am just a foreigner and the translating into my language (Danish) doesn't give me any clue at all. But if it is a joke about the Scots or Glaswegians I really cannot understand why. I am collecting stereotypes, not jokes, though. [snip] > I don't think so - the joke, which I still don't understand, but I am > just a foreigner and the translating into my language (Danish) doesn't > give me any clue at all. But if it is a joke about the Scots or > Glaswegians I really cannot understand why. I am collecting stereotypes, > not jokes, though. The stereotype is of the Scotsman who won't easily part with his money; that number of Scotsmen are sharing two taxis to make it cheaper. With best wishes, Peter. SignaturePeter Young, (BrE), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004. (US equivalent: Attending Anesthesiologist) Now happily retired. Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk > [snip] > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Peter. Thank you - now I get it. You are talking about the canny Scots? This was deep. >> [snip] >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >Thank you - now I get it. You are talking about the canny Scots? This >was deep. Not "canny", for that means "clever". The joke is about the Scots being tight, parsimonious, cheap, or some other word that means "reluctant to spend money". A large number of them have crammed themselves into a cab and will split the fare. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>> [snip] >>> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >"reluctant to spend money". A large number of them have crammed >themselves into a cab and will split the fare. Just talking to my brother, and he says the Danish word would be "naerie", but he spells it with the "a" and "e" as a ligature (æ). SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>>> [snip] >>>> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > Just talking to my brother, and he says the Danish word would be > "naerie", but he spells it with the "a" and "e" as a ligature (æ). That's right - 'nærig' is the word - just like "Uncle Scrooge" in Disney's cartoons. The word "nærig" is usually translated as a "miser" when we have to translate it from Danish into English. It is just a synonym, I think. >>>>> [snip] >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] >when we have to translate it from Danish into English. It is just a >synonym, I think. Google's Danish to English translator gives the adjective "stingy" for "nærig". Stingy is a well-known English word: 4. a. Of persons, actions, etc.: Niggardly, penurious, mean, close-fisted. c. Betokening meanness; doled out sparingly or grudgingly. A synonym that is less used and less well-known is "near": 9. Niggardly, stingy, mean. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.english.usage) >>>>>> [snip] >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > > 9. Niggardly, stingy, mean. All the words above are translated into Danish as three or four words (in general): nærig, gerrig, påholdende, fedtet >>>>>>> [snip] >>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] >All the words above are translated into Danish as three or four words >(in general): nærig, gerrig, påholdende, fedtet "Påholdende" looks/sounds a bit like 'paw-holding', ie tight-fisted / close-fisted? SignatureIan >>>>>>>> [snip] >>>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > "Påholdende" looks/sounds a bit like 'paw-holding', ie tight-fisted / > close-fisted? The notion in Danish is that a 'påholdende' person has his fists tight around the money so he will not loose them under any circumstances. A 'påholdende' person is considered a miser in the Danish understanding unlike a spendthrift, which is the opposite. >>>>> [snip] >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] >when we have to translate it from Danish into English. It is just a >synonym, I think. At least now you "get" the joke. It wasn't all that funny in the first place, but now you understand. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>>>>> [snip] >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > At least now you "get" the joke. It wasn't all that funny in the > first place, but now you understand. Yes -thank you! Some jokes do, however, demand a background knowledge. Therefore it is not always wise to "translate" a joke from another language to your own and vice versa, if you do not understand the background. E.g. A naked man is going into a restaurant only dressed with a long tie. A sign at the restaurant says: "No smoking". Do you understand it? >>>>>>> [snip] >>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > > Do you understand it? I shall help you a little: "Smoking" is the word we use in Danish for a toxedo or a dinner jacket. The pun is of course that the man thinks he knows English and consequently follow the rules at the sign that he must not wear a tuxedo (dinner jacket) instead that he is not allowed to smoke. Funny? hardly - at least in English without knowing the background for it. On the other hand there are jokes which are understandable in almost all languages. At my university there is a sign saying: Trespassers will be used for biological experiments. This sign is put outside the area for speciality students - Another sign in Danish which you might not understand without knowing the background. A person goes into the Town Hall. He says in Danish: Hvor er det man bliver gift? en embedsmand svarer: det er der hvor der står skilt på døren. A direct translation: Where can one get married? A civil servant answers, "up there where there is (a) sign on the door" You must know that the word "sign" has two meanings in Danish: sign = skilt - that is a sign where you can put information about who is behind the door, e.g. storage room, elevator etc. But the other meaning is "divorse" - where can I get married? there where there is (a) divorse (sign) pn the door. The other way round is also sometimes difficult to understand. I have a shirt with a picture on it. The picture shows a cat chasing a mouse. The text says: Fast food. Only if you understand the pun, you might find the joke funny. In Danish we have,however, a word like the English "fast" - it means 'compact' and has several meanings (adjectives, adverbs) >> E.g. A naked man is going into a restaurant only dressed with a long >> tie. A sign at the restaurant says: "No smoking". [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > consequently follow the rules at the sign that he must not wear a > tuxedo (dinner jacket) instead that he is not allowed to smoke. But why was he wearing no trousers? Chris R > >> E.g. A naked man is going into a restaurant only dressed with a long > >> tie. A sign at the restaurant says: "No smoking". [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Chris R a jacket and no trousers......that would look stupid.... >>> E.g. A naked man is going into a restaurant only dressed with a long >>> tie. A sign at the restaurant says: "No smoking". [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > But why was he wearing no trousers? you don't understand the joke? - the trousers are not the issue here - it is the fact that he thought he was not to wear a dinner jacket - so... > > [snip] > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Thank you - now I get it. You are talking about the canny Scots? This > was deep. Actually the Scottish aren't that stingy / tight / miserly, because they give the English all their oil. If the same crash took place in Holland you would find that 58 people were injured. |
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