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Discussion Groups / English Usage / July 2009Is this sentence about AC voltage okay
So, if relay B's coil was set up to run on, has been running on 16 volts AC, is there any chance it can run just as well on 24 volts AC? Is this sentence okay?  SignaturePosters should say where they live, and for which area they are asking questions. I have lived in Western Pa. 10 years Indianapolis 10 years Chicago 6 years Brooklyn, NY 12 years Baltimore 26 years > So, if relay B's coil was set up to run on, has been running on 16 > volts AC, is there any chance it can run just as well on 24 volts AC? It doesn't work for me. I suggest "So, if relay B's coil was set up to run on and has been running on 16 volts AC, is there any chance it can run just as well on 24 volts AC?" > Is this sentence okay? That one is fine. Bill in Kentucky ---------------------------------------------------------------- Reverse parts of the user name and ISP name for my e-address On 05 Jul 2009, Bill McCray wrote >> So, if relay B's coil was set up to run on, has been running on >> 16 volts AC, is there any chance it can run just as well on 24 [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > set up to run on and has been running on 16 volts AC, is there > any chance it can run just as well on 24 volts AC?" Written by a commaphobic, methinks... (grin) I'd have replaced one with a colon and added one, not removed one: "So: if relay B's coil was set up to run on, and has been running on, 16 volts AC, is there any chance it can run just as well on 24 volts AC?" SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed > On 05 Jul 2009, Bill McCray wrote > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > 16 volts AC, is there any chance it can run just as well on 24 volts > AC?" IMO, striving for economy is not helpful in this case. What about: "So: if relay B's coil was set up to run on 16 volts AC, and has been running on 16 volts AC, is there any chance it can run just as well on 24 volts AC?" or perhaps: "So: if relay B's coil was set up to run on 16 volts AC, and has been running on this voltage, is there any chance it can run just as well on 24 volts AC?" SignatureLes (BrE) On 05 Jul 2009, Leslie Danks wrote >> On 05 Jul 2009, Bill McCray wrote >> >>>> So, if relay B's coil was set up to run on, has been running >>>> on 16 volts AC, is there any chance it can run just as well >>>> on 24 volts AC? -snip- > IMO, striving for economy is not helpful in this case. What > about: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > been running on this voltage, is there any chance it can run > just as well on 24 volts AC?" Good point; I'll retract my edit and go with that approach. SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed >On 05 Jul 2009, Leslie Danks wrote > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > >Good point; I'll retract my edit and go with that approach. Are hyphens/dashes out of the question? My style would be: "So, [1] if relay B's coil was set up to run on 16 volts AC - and has been running on this voltage - is there any chance it can run just as well on 24 volts AC?" [1] I'd also use a comma here. I'm not a great colon - and definitely not a semicolon - person. SignatureIan > On 05 Jul 2009, Bill McCray wrote > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > 16 volts AC, is there any chance it can run just as well on 24 volts > AC?" Me, I'd have asked... "if relay B's coil was set up for, and has been running on, 16 volts AC, is there any chance it can run just as well on 24 volts AC?" SignatureThe Canadian Curmudgeon (in Calgary) Save our precious CO2 - plant many trees >> On 05 Jul 2009, Bill McCray wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >running on, 16 volts AC, is there any chance it can run just as well on >24 volts AC?" Since the dissipated power is a function of the square of the voltage I would suggest the answer is "no". Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * > So, if relay B's coil was set up to run on, has been running on 16 > volts AC, is there any chance it can run just as well on 24 volts AC? > > Is this sentence okay? No. Assuming that the problem is poor English usage, not poor engineering, I suggest that the author use "work" in place of "run". If the issue is engineering, I suggest another "google group". The first part means "... to work on 16V DC and has been working on 16...". And the answer is "yes". 100% guarantee. GFH I know this does not answer the question, but personally, I would not operate a relay with a coil voltage more than 10 percent over its manufacturer's rating. Not if I wanted long term reliability. > So, if relay B's coil was set up to run on, has been running on 16 > volts AC, is there any chance it can run just as well on 24 volts AC? I know this isn't germane to your question, but I do dislike 'AC voltage'. Is there a phrase 'alternating voltage' and an abbreviation 'AV'? If not, there should be. SignatureWhich of the seven heavens / Was responsible her smile / Wouldn't be sure but attested / That, whoever it was, a god / Worth kneeling-to for a while / Had tabernacled and rested. >> So, if relay B's coil was set up to run on, has been running on 16 >> volts AC, is there any chance it can run just as well on 24 volts AC? > >I know this isn't germane to your question, but I do dislike 'AC >voltage'. Is there a phrase 'alternating voltage' and an abbreviation >'AV'? If not, there should be. I understand your dislike of 'AC voltage' but the forms "nV AC", "nV DC", "n Volts AC" and "n Volts DC" are customary. On equipment labels "AC" is replaced by "~" and "DC" by a short solid horizontal line over a short dotted line (a slightly lengthened "=" with the lower line as three dots). SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.english.usage) >>> So, if relay B's coil was set up to run on, has been running on 16 >>> volts AC, is there any chance it can run just as well on 24 volts AC? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >horizontal line over a short dotted line (a slightly lengthened "=" with >the lower line as three dots). I really hate it when the use these symbols on small things like plug ('Walwart' ) power supplies. They are often extremely small and essentially unreadable. I presume that the original artwork for the labelling was the size of a football pitch. SignatureIan >>>> So, if relay B's coil was set up to run on, has been running on 16 >>>> volts AC, is there any chance it can run just as well on 24 volts AC? [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >essentially unreadable. I presume that the original artwork for the >labelling was the size of a football pitch. I share your hate. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.english.usage) >I really hate it when the use these symbols on small things like plug >('Walwart' ) power supplies. They are often extremely small and >essentially unreadable. I presume that the original artwork for the >labelling was the size of a football pitch. The real problem is that they always seem to be molded black on black. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>I really hate it when the use these symbols on small things like plug >>('Walwart' ) power supplies. They are often extremely small and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >The real problem is that they always seem to be molded black on >black. Well, sometimes. I have been known to use the police technique for revealing fingerprints, ie to use a fine-hair brush to dust the area with talcum powder. SignatureIan > So, if relay B's coil was set up to run on, has been running on 16 > volts AC, is there any chance it can run just as well on 24 volts AC? > > Is this sentence okay? My sugestion: If relay B's coil is rated to operate on 16 volts AC, is there any chance it can be operated just as well on 24 volts? 1. I would question the need for "So" at the beginning. 2. Relay coils are "rated" for a particular voltage, not "set up". 3. "Operate" rather than "run". 4. The second "AC" is redundant. 5. "has been running on" is not needed. 6. If you use a relay coil rated for 16 volts AC on 24 volts you would very probably drive the core into magnetic saturation and it would overheat. If this situation were prolonged there would certainly be a reduction in service life and possibly a fire risk. > 2. Relay coils are "rated" for a particular voltage, not "set up". Unless your aim is to make a really loud buzz (which, granted, was the object of most of my childhood projects involving relays), it isn't going to operate in a useful way on any AC voltage without being "set up" in some way with a rectifier and a capacitor. ¬R > Unless your aim is to make a really loud buzz (which, granted, was the > object of most of my childhood projects involving relays), it isn't > going to operate in a useful way on any AC voltage without being "set > up" in some way with a rectifier and a capacitor. You need to get into the 20th century! There is such a thing as an AC relay. The basic difference between AC and DC relays lies in the armature and magnet core construction. The armature and magnet cores of an AC relay are made up of laminations, and those of a DC relay are of solid material. The use of laminations in an AC relay reduces the heating due to eddy currents. In addition, an AC-powered relay has what is known as a "shading coil", which is a shorted turn on the relay's solenoid. A current is induced in this shorted turn which is 90 degrees out of phase with the main coil's current, and provides just enough magnetic field to keep the armature engaged during the zero crossing of the current in the main coil. An AC relay will be designed for an approximate frequency of alternating current. Thus a device designed for 50/60 Hz will not be suitable for the 400 Hz current found in aircraft. >> Unless your aim is to make a really loud buzz (which, granted, was the >> object of most of my childhood projects involving relays), it isn't [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >You need to get into the 20th century! There is such a thing as an AC >relay. As you point out below, there are relays designed for use in AC circuits and relays designed for use in DC circuits and you provide the differences. I don't see how you can then claim there is no such thing as an AC relay. >The basic difference between AC and DC relays lies in the >armature and magnet core construction. The armature and magnet cores [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >device designed for 50/60 Hz will not be suitable for the 400 Hz >current found in aircraft. Given the role of impedance in the electrical characteristics of a coil, I suggest you not supply a relay meant for 24 VAC with a direct current voltage of 24 V even if you do think there's no such thing as an AC relay (a number of retailers seem to sell them, by the way). Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * > On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 10:55:41 -0700 (PDT), contrex > > <mike.j.har...@gmail.com> wrote: > > >There is such a thing as an AC relay. >I don't see how you can then claim there > is no such thing as an AC relay. Where have I said that there is no such thing as an AC relay? I did write the opposite, that there is such a thing as an AC relay. You even quoted me! This was in response to someone who seemed to think that all relays work on DC. Read my post again. Perhaps you hastily read the word "no" in between "is" and "such", and failed to see the "a"? I messed up the quoting. Me: > >There is such a thing as an AC relay. Hatunen: >I don't see how you can then claim there > is no such thing as an AC relay. Clean that monitor, see that optometrist! >> On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 10:55:41 -0700 (PDT), contrex >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >read the word "no" in between "is" and "such", and failed to see the >"a"? [Blush] Good grief. I have no idea why I saw a "no" in that sentence the first time I read it. Never mind... Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * > You need to get into the 20th century! The 22nd century of the Anno Domini era will span the years 2101–2200 of the Gregorian calendar. Wiki >> 2. Relay coils are "rated" for a particular voltage, not "set up". > >Unless your aim is to make a really loud buzz (which, granted, was the >object of most of my childhood projects involving relays), it isn't >going to operate in a useful way on any AC voltage without being "set >up" in some way with a rectifier and a capacitor. There are relays which operate with AC applied to the coil. Presumably the contact assembly is detuned/slugged so as not to buzz: http://cpc.farnell.com/tyco-electronics-schrack/rm705615/relay-panel-mount-115va c/dp/SW01693 I have seen them in equipment but have not worked with them. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.english.usage) On 7 July, 18:58, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> wrote: > There are relays which operate with AC applied to the coil. See my post above. >On 7 July, 18:58, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> >wrote: > >> There are relays which operate with AC applied to the coil. > >See my post above. Thanks. I did see it. My guess was reasonable but Wrong. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.english.usage) |
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