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Discussion Groups / English Usage / July 2009IHS vs. IHSV
What is the difference between IHS and IHSV, In hoc signo and In hoc signo vinces ?  SignaturePosters should say where they live, and for which area they are asking questions. I have lived in Western Pa. 10 years Indianapolis 10 years Chicago 6 years Brooklyn, NY 12 years Baltimore 26 years > What is the difference between IHS and IHSV, In hoc signo and In hoc > signo vinces ? Big difference. First of all, IHS is *NOT* an abbreviation for "in hoc signo". It is an abbreviation for "Iesus Hominem Salvator" ("Jesus, Savior of Mankind"), and is commonly found embroidered on altar cloths and engraved on headstones. IHSV ("in hoc signo vinces") ("by this sign you will conquer") can be found on heraldic emblems and has nothing at all to do with IHS . . . >> What is the difference between IHS and IHSV, In hoc signo and In hoc >> signo vinces ? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >IHSV ("in hoc signo vinces") ("by this sign you will conquer") can be found >on heraldic emblems and has nothing at all to do with IHS . . . Wow. It pays to ask. I've actually never seen the second one in initial form, maybe, now that I think about it. I think I learned it, in non-initial form, in Latin class, but maybe not. I always start with an open-ended question, but now I realize none of my follow-up questions are applicable. SignaturePosters should say where they live, and for which area they are asking questions. I have lived in Western Pa. 10 years Indianapolis 10 years Chicago 6 years Brooklyn, NY 12 years Baltimore 26 years >> What is the difference between IHS and IHSV, In hoc signo and In >> hoc signo vinces ? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > ("Jesus, Savior of Mankind"), and is commonly found embroidered on > altar cloths and engraved on headstones. Typo there. Should be "Hominum", "of men". > IHSV ("in hoc signo vinces") ("by this sign you will conquer") can > be found on heraldic emblems and has nothing at all to do with IHS > . . . True, but it's probably not a coincidence that the letters IHS and the first three letters of IHSV, taking "S" for sigma, are the first three letters of IHSOUS, Jesus in Greek. > >> What is the difference between IHS and IHSV, In hoc signo and In > >> hoc signo vinces ? [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > first three letters of IHSV, taking "S" for sigma, are the first three > letters of IHSOUS, Jesus in Greek. I am sure that it is a mere coincidence. Yes, the Greek capital 'e' is shaped exactly like the Roman capital H, but to perceive any other link between their uses is to construct an modern urban legend. The Greek capital 'r' is shaped exactly like the Roman capital P. Now, were you to find a mystical cross-language connection there, as well as the e/H one, there might be something worth exploring. -- >>>> What is the difference between IHS and IHSV, In hoc signo and In >>>> hoc signo vinces ? >>> Big difference. First of all, IHS is *NOT* an abbreviation for "in >>> hoc signo". It is an abbreviation for "Iesus Hominem Salvator" >>> ("Jesus, Savior of Mankind"), and is commonly found embroidered on >>> altar cloths and engraved on headstones. >> Typo there. Should be "Hominum", "of men". >>> IHSV ("in hoc signo vinces") ("by this sign you will conquer") can >>> be found on heraldic emblems and has nothing at all to do with IHS [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> the first three letters of IHSV, taking "S" for sigma, are the >> first three letters of IHSOUS, Jesus in Greek. > I am sure that it is a mere coincidence. Yes, the Greek capital 'e' > is shaped exactly like the Roman capital H, but to perceive any > other link between their uses is to construct an modern urban > legend. > The Greek capital 'r' is shaped exactly like the Roman capital P. > Now, were you to find a mystical cross-language connection there, > as well as the e/H one, there might be something worth exploring. These are to some extent matters of personal opinion, of which we are all entitled to at least one. In my opinion, there is a lot of mystical cross-language connection going around. Your speculation above made me wonder if the monogram for "Christ", Chi-Rho, which resembles the Latin letters PX written together*, was ever interpreted as the Latin word "Pax". According to this article by James Stevens Curl from _A Dictionary of Architecture and Landscape Architecture_, it has been; and there is some other information there about other various interpretations of religious initialisms. I note that it appears from this that the letters IHS are interpreted, not as the first three letters of IHSOUS, as I had said, but as the first two letters and the last one. *Chrismon*. The sacred monogram, an arrangement of the first three Greek letters (Chi, Rho, and Iota) of XPI?TO? Christ's name, also called Christogram, which suggests the Cross as well as pax (peace). Another version is, the initial letters of I??o??? X????o? ( Jesus Christ) and the first two letters of ?????? the Greek for 'fish', a symbol of the Faith and of Baptism. Other sacred symbols associated with Christ are A (Alpha) and ? (Omega)-the Beginning and the End; INRI (Iesus Nazarenus Rex Iudaeorum (Jesus of Nazareth King of the Jews), or In Nobis Regnat Iesus (Jesus Reigns In Us), or Igne Natura Renovatur Integra (Nature is Regenerated by Fire-referring to the Spirit and to Redemption) ); IHS (variously explained as the first two and last Greek capital letters of IH?OY?, Christ's first name (IHC, the Iota, Eta, and Sigma, given as ?, C, or the Latin S), Iesus Hominum Salvator (Jesus the Saviour of Man), In Hoc Signo (In This Sign [Thou Shalt Conquer]), and In Hac Salus (In This [Cross] is Salvation). http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O1-Chrismon.html ___________ * This is the symbol I'm talking about: http://images.google.ca/images?hl=en&q=Christ+Xp&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2&aq=f&oq= http://tinyurl.com/n692s5 >*Chrismon*. The sacred monogram, an arrangement of the first three >Greek letters (Chi, Rho, and Iota) of XPI?TO? Christ's name, also I know you're quoting the URL below. It surprises me to see XPI?TO? referred to as a name. Isn't it a title, or something of that sort? >called Christogram, which suggests the Cross as well as pax (peace). >Another version is, the initial letters of I??o??? X????o? ( Jesus [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O1-Chrismon.html SignaturePosters should say where they live, and for which area they are asking questions. I have lived in Western Pa. 10 years Indianapolis 10 years Chicago 6 years Brooklyn, NY 12 years Baltimore 26 years >> *Chrismon*. The sacred monogram, an arrangement of the first three >> Greek letters (Chi, Rho, and Iota) of XPI?TO? Christ's name, also > I know you're quoting the URL below. It surprises me to see XPI?TO? > referred to as a name. Isn't it a title, or something of that sort? Yes, "ho Christos", Greek for "the Messiah". When I was a kid, I assumed along with everybody else that it was his family name (middle initial "H"). I'm not sure what happened to produce all those question marks for Greek letters. I have them too, and yet, when I passed the text through Notepad to clean off attachments, I got the original version both there and in the posting as I pasted and sent it. Sorry; but the complete version is available at the URL. >> called Christogram, which suggests the Cross as well as pax >> (peace). Another version is, the initial letters of I??o??? [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> Sign [Thou Shalt Conquer]), and In Hac Salus (In This [Cross] is >> Salvation). >> http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O1-Chrismon.html > >>>> What is the difference between IHS and IHSV, In hoc signo and In > >>>> hoc signo vinces ? [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] > > - Show quoted text - I haven't encountered most of those! IHS, in hoc signo vinces, Alpha and Omega, ichthys and the fish sign, and the Chi-Rho, yes. Not the others. When I was a kid, the gate between sanctuary and the rest of the church had the Chi-Rho with a Beta depending from it (one long line was the vertical of the Rho and the Beta, with the Chi crossing it between). The church was Christ the King Catholic Church. "Christian," I was taught, was first heard in Antioch, to refer to followers of the Anointed One. Sister Whichever noted that those who used it may well have been poking fun, and a possible English translation for those connotations could be "greaser." >>>>>> What is the difference between IHS and IHSV, In hoc signo and >>>>>> In hoc signo vinces ? [differing interpretations of religious symbols]. >> (article by >> James Stevens Curl from _A Dictionary of Architecture and >> Landscape Architecture_:) >> *Chrismon*. The sacred monogram, an arrangement of the first three >> Greek letters (Chi, Rho, and Iota) of XPI?TO? Christ's name, also [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >> >> http://tinyurl.com/n692s5 > I haven't encountered most of those! IHS, in hoc signo vinces, > Alpha and Omega, ichthys and the fish sign, and the Chi-Rho, yes. > Not the others. > When I was a kid, the gate between sanctuary and the rest of the > church had the Chi-Rho with a Beta depending from it (one long line > was the vertical of the Rho and the Beta, with the Chi crossing it > between). The church was Christ the King Catholic Church. The line and the "B" may have been Greek iota and beta, for "Ioudaiôn Basileús", King of the Jews, like the BI in INBI that Steve has mentioned elsethread. > "Christian," I was taught, was first heard in Antioch, to refer to > followers of the Anointed One. Sister Whichever noted that those > who used it may well have been poking fun, and a possible English > translation for those connotations could be "greaser." I think I recall that Robert Graves maintained that they called them "Chrestians" (or the equivalent), deriving it from "chrestos"* and meaning the followers of the Fool. I was a teenager when I (think I) read that, and didn't -- couldn't, really -- check up on the poet, but I find on looking now that the word mostly means "upright, deserving, stout, brave in battle", which doesn't seem so bad. The entry does note that it was used ironically ("You are a nice fellow"), and so maybe by the time of this use it had come down in the world. *"chrHstós", with E for eta. > >>>>>> What is the difference between IHS and IHSV, In hoc signo and > >>>>>> In hoc signo vinces ? [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] > > - Show quoted text - I believe the line was just a connector. The B was indeed beta, for basileus (or however the Greek is actually spelled, in whatever noun form it needs to be) meaning king. "Messiah" and "Christ" are both, I was taught, The Anointed One -- kings used to be anointed with oil to signify their consecration (the English one still is -- at least as of 1953). (The OED says "Greek Khristos ‘anointed one’, translating a Hebrew word meaning ‘Messiah’.") >> What is the difference between IHS and IHSV, In hoc signo and In hoc >> signo vinces ? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >of Mankind"), and is commonly found embroidered on altar cloths and engraved >on headstones. Well I shouldn't bite the hand that feeds me but I feel intellectually? obliged to report that I looked this up** and got a hit in wikipedia where it seem to say iiuc that this is what they call a backronym. An interpretation that arose later***. They say it is really the Latinized version of the first three Greek letters of Jesus's name, Iota, eta, sigma. The sigma got changed to an S which is fine, but the eta got changed to an H, because that's what it looks like, iiuc, and that is the origin of IHS, according to the hidden gnomes of wikipedia. Another page http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=006PZM says what you say, but a comment on that disagrees. It also suggests that the S in IHS represents not the first s but the last letter in Jesus's name. ** and again noted a strange aspect of google, which is certainly relevant on english usage newsgroups, where counting the number of hits is a fairly common practice to show how common usage is. I entered Iesus Hominem Salvator and got about 5300 hits and what turns out to be the strange question, "Do you mean Iesus Hominum Salvator?" So eventually I clicked on that, and got about 5260 hits, almost the same number, but all of them this time seemed to be spelled that way. I went back to the first search and many of the hits were also spelled hominum. In fact I had to scroll down 3 or 4 pages to find one that spelled it with an e. My point is not that hominum is the correct spelling -- I don't know -- but that the number of hits included both spellings, at least in the case of hominem. Maybe at first google search only looked for exact matches, but now it lists both that and common non-matches (according to rules I still don't know), so one can't really rely on a google count to determine how common usage is anymore. There were problems doing this before, of course, but now they seem overwhelming. Am I right? Is there something I've left out? Hmmm. I didn't put the three words in double quotes. Dang. Okay, in quotes, the three words with hominem got 20 hits. With u it got 1240 hits. I usually don't include quotes. I still think finding alternate spellings is less than 10 years old. >IHSV ("in hoc signo vinces") ("by this sign you will conquer") can be found >on heraldic emblems and has nothing at all to do with IHS . . . Wow. It pays to ask. I've actually never seen the second one in initial form, maybe, now that I think about it. I think I learned it, in non-initial form, in Latin class, but maybe not. I always start with an open-ended question, but now I realize none of my follow-up questions are applicable. SignaturePosters should say where they live, and for which area they are asking questions. I have lived in Western Pa. 10 years Indianapolis 10 years Chicago 6 years Brooklyn, NY 12 years Baltimore 26 years >>> What is the difference between IHS and IHSV, In hoc signo and In hoc >>> signo vinces ? [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > like, iiuc, and that is the origin of IHS, according to the hidden > gnomes of wikipedia. I hadn't known that --- thanks for having taken it a step further . . . >>> What is the difference between IHS and IHSV, In hoc signo and In hoc >>> signo vinces ? [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >like, iiuc, and that is the origin of IHS, according to the hidden >gnomes of wikipedia. That's quite possible. The bread used for communion in Orthodox Churches is stamped with IC|XC __ __ NI|KA Which stands for "Jesus Christ conquers" In western churches you will sometimes see the letters INRI on a cross, and in eastern churches INBI, the former being Latin and the latter Greek for "Jesus Christ, King of the Jews", the inscription that Pilate is said to have put on the cross on which Jesus was crucified. He also wrote it in Hebrew, but that isn't often seen. Until recently the Roman Catholic Church believed firmly that only those three languages could be used in church servicices, and it was only in the 1960s that they began using other languages. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > [ ... ] > In western churches you will sometimes see the letters INRI on a cross, and in > eastern churches INBI, the former being Latin and the latter Greek for "Jesus > Christ, King of the Jews", the inscription that Pilate is said to have put on > the cross on which Jesus was crucified. I doubt if Pilate had come across the word "Christ", but anyway the N refers to Nazareth. Signatureathel >> [ ... ] > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >I doubt if Pilate had come across the word "Christ", but anyway the N >refers to Nazareth. Quite right. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > In western churches you will sometimes see the letters INRI on a > cross, and in eastern churches INBI, the former being Latin and the > latter Greek for "Jesus Christ, King of the Jews", "Iesus Nazarenus rex Iudaeorum". Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews. > the inscription that Pilate is said to have put on the cross on > which Jesus was crucified. He also wrote it in Hebrew, but that > isn't often seen. Although that "Hebrew" would probably have been Aramaic, the language of the people. Some versions of John 20:16 (in Greek as well as in English) identify "Rabboni" as "Hebrew" when it is, in fact, Aramaic. Looking at http://mlbible.com/john/20-16.htm http://scripturetext.com/john/20-16.htm it's interesting that most of the languages I can puzzle through are split on whether "in Hebrew" is there. In English, only the New International Version says "in Aramaic", surprisingly without a footnote to the effect that that's not actually what the source text says. Several other places that the source texts (and other translations) have "Hebrew", the NIV has "Aramaic". > Until recently the Roman Catholic Church believed firmly that only > those three languages could be used in church servicices, and it was > only in the 1960s that they began using other languages. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Just sit right back 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 | and you'll hear a tale, Palo Alto, CA 94304 | a tale of the Stanford red |That started when a little boy kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | named Leland did drop dead (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > >> What is the difference between IHS and IHSV, In hoc signo and In hoc > >> signo vinces ? > >Big difference. First of all, IHS is *NOT* an abbreviation for "in hoc > >signo". It is an abbreviation for "Iesus Hominem Salvator" ("Jesus, Savior > >of Mankind"), and is commonly found embroidered on altar cloths and engraved > >on headstones. IHSV (In hoc signo vicis) is in legend associated with the Roman emperor Constantine, labelling a vision of a cross in the sky before a battle. Romans supposedly took such auguries or visions seriously, this message being that if Constantine adopted the new religion of Christianity he would win the battle, So he did profess the religion, won the battle, and then made Christianity the state religion of the Roman empire. (His mother years earlier became a Christian, supposedly spent years hunting for relics of the True Cross, and was later honoured as St. Monica.) SignatureDon Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) > IHSV (In hoc signo vicis) is in legend associated with the > Roman emperor Constantine, labelling a vision of a cross [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > a Christian, supposedly spent years hunting for relics > of the True Cross, and was later honoured as St. Monica.) I thought it was St Helena, and she was supposed to have found it (the true cross). But it's been a long, long time, and, at the moment, relying on my poor memory is easier that Googling. Have a good day! > > IHSV (In hoc signo vicis) is in legend associated with the > > Roman emperor Constantine, labelling a vision of a cross [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > I thought it was St Helena, and she was supposed to have found it (the> true cross). I believe you are right about her name. I've always been a bit suspicious of the True Cross story. I can just see a few people in Jerulselem upon hearing of Helena's search, thinking, " Humm, I got those old 2X4's in the shed. I wonder...." John Kane, Kingston ON Canada >>> IHSV (In hoc signo vicis) is in legend associated with the >>> Roman emperor Constantine, labelling a vision of a cross [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Jerulselem upon hearing of Helena's search, thinking, " Humm, I got > those old 2X4's in the shed. I wonder...." Well, some people will believe anything. Even that the image of the Cross appeared in the sky with either a voice or that message in lights. IHSV. Well, whatever it takes to win makes for nice stories. >IHSV (In hoc signo vicis) is in legend associated with the >Roman emperor Constantine, labelling a vision of a cross [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >a Christian, supposedly spent years hunting for relics >of the True Cross, and was later honoured as St. Monica.) Not quite. It was Theodosius, about 50 years later, who made Christianity the state religion. Constantine only made it legal, and not a criminal offence to be a Christian. His mother was Helen, Helena, Eleni, or however you want to spell it. She started the fashion of making pilgrimages to Jerusalem, from which Christians and Jews had been expelled several centuries earlier. She is associated with Colchester, and Constantine may have been Albanian, or Illyrian, as it was called in those days. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > > >> What is the difference between IHS and IHSV, In hoc signo and In hoc > > >> signo vinces ? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Roman emperor Constantine, labelling a vision of a cross > in the sky before a battle. ... Many will recall the scene in the movie of /The Wizard of Oz/ where the Wicked Witch of the West skywrites with her broom. Few, however, know that the script originally called for her to cackle, "In hoc signo, Winkies!" This was edited out as being over too many heads. -- Jerry Friedman >Many will recall the scene in the movie of /The Wizard of Oz/ where >the Wicked Witch of the West skywrites with her broom. Few, however, >know that the script originally called for her to cackle, "In hoc >signo, Winkies!" This was edited out as being over too many heads. Like the Philosopher's Stone? SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >> What is the difference between IHS and IHSV, In hoc signo and In hoc >> signo vinces ? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >IHSV ("in hoc signo vinces") ("by this sign you will conquer") can be found >on heraldic emblems and has nothing at all to do with IHS . . . BTW, it would have taken me far longer to check this out when I still though IHS was short of IHSV. Thanks a lot. SignaturePosters should say where they live, and for which area they are asking questions. I have lived in Western Pa. 10 years Indianapolis 10 years Chicago 6 years Brooklyn, NY 12 years Baltimore 26 years >What is the difference between IHS and IHSV, In hoc signo and In hoc >signo vinces ? IHS is usually interpeted to mean Iesus Hominem Salvator (or soemthing like that) -- Jesus, Saviour of Men (male and female). SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > IHS is usually interpeted to mean Iesus Hominem Salvator (or soemthing like > that) -- Jesus, Saviour of Men (male and female). Nowadays better translated as "savior of mankind," an old rubric that suits today's hypersensitivity about gendered words. SignatureDon Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) >> IHS is usually interpeted to mean Iesus Hominem Salvator (or soemthing >like >> that) -- Jesus, Saviour of Men (male and female). > >Nowadays better translated as "savior of mankind," an old >rubric that suits today's hypersensitivity about gendered words. Humankind, if you please. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >>> IHS is usually interpeted to mean Iesus Hominem Salvator (or soemthing >>like [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Humankind, if you please. "Huperoffspringkind". SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Those who would give up essential 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |Liberty, to purchase a little Palo Alto, CA 94304 |temporary Safety, deserve neither |Liberty nor Safety. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | Benjamin Franklin (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ |
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