 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
| HomeDiscussion GroupsEnglish UsageBritish EnglishESL Teaching Learnglish.com Contact UsLink To UsSearch & Site Map |
Discussion Groups / English Usage / July 2009pronunciation affected by context
I'm listening to Barack Obama read his own book, Dreams from my Father. I'm in section 7 of disk 3, about 55 seconds in, and I heard something very interesting, not about Obama really but about English. He was looking for a job as a community organizer and had all but given up when he received a call from an experienced community organizer, Marty Kaufman. who had called him. Later he met him in NYC and he was telling Obama about what he'd been doing. Over the last 15 years, he'd been "organizing farmers in Nebraska, Blacks in Philadelphia, Mexicans in Chicago. Now he was trying to pull urban Black and suburban Whites together around a plan to save manufacturing jobs in metropolitan Chicago." The interesting thing is that the first Chicago he pronounced with a weak but still Spanish accent, as in the first two syllables in Chicano or, specifically, the ch in chair. I had to play it 3 times to be sure he had said it that way. The second Chicago, only about 5 seconds later, he pronounced in standard English, Shicago**. Maybe, but I really don't think it was conscious. But the proximity of the first Chicago to "Mexicans" seem to have caused him to use the Spanish pronunciation. I'm sure this sort of thing happens to all of us at times, but I don't usually hear it on a CD. **Or maybe French. The name Chicago comes from the French for iirc smelly garlic, chec agout, or something like that. I think downtown Chicago was a swamp when white people (Marquette and Joliet?) first came across it. Does garlic grow in swamps? I know that there are 5 or 6 floors of basement for tall buildings in Chicago, more probably for the really tall buildings. The buildings practically float on the wet ground.)  SignaturePosters should say where they live, and for which area they are asking questions. I have lived in Western Pa. 10 years Indianapolis 10 years Chicago 6 years Brooklyn, NY 12 years Baltimore 26 years >The interesting thing is that the first Chicago he pronounced with a >weak but still Spanish accent, as in the first two syllables in >Chicano or, specifically, the ch in chair. Uh, that's not a Spanish accent, that's a Chicago accent--though I could never keep straight which side of town it's from, and people from elsewhere in the city will insist that it's WRONG WRONG WRONG. ¬R There's really no such thing as a Loser's Club. --Spot http://users.bestweb.net/~notr/emopvere.html Sorry! 1019 > >The interesting thing is that the first Chicago he pronounced with a > >weak but still Spanish accent, as in the first two syllables in [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > ¬R There's really no such thing as a Loser's Club. --Spothttp://users.bestweb.net/~notr/emopvere.html Sorry! 1019 My dad was part of the Depression/WWII generation and grew up in Cleveland, Ohio, born to immigrant Slovenian parents. He and my uncles and aunts all pronounced it with the hard "ch" instead of "sh". My generation went with the "sh". Paul In article <dddd63a7-b9fd-4e00-a0d8-4296444b11a7@p36g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>, > > >The interesting thing is that the first Chicago he pronounced with a > > >weak but still Spanish accent, as in the first two syllables in [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > and aunts all pronounced it with the hard "ch" instead of "sh". My > generation went with the "sh". I've occasionally heard "Los Angeles" pronounced with a hard 'g' - anyone care to shed light on that? Signature"If you can, tell me something happy." - Marybones > I've occasionally heard "Los Angeles" pronounced with a hard 'g' - > anyone care to shed light on that? I think it comes from a mangle attempt to pronounce Los Angeles closer to the Spanish pronunciation, but missing the mark. Here's a good entry about it: http://www.laalmanac.com/geography/ge13c.htm >> I've occasionally heard "Los Angeles" pronounced with a hard 'g' - >> anyone care to shed light on that? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > http://www.laalmanac.com/geography/ge13c.htm Ah, that's the one I pressed by accident (cf., as our troll from Denmark would put it, my answer to Cece). Anyway, I seem to recall that in an early version of Zorro (1950s or 60s, probably) it was pronounced like that (and, of course, "Zorro" itself was pronounced in a thoroughly anglophone way, with no attempt at a Spanish z or rr). The more recent episodes of Zorro that I've watched with my daughter or which precede other programmes that I'm planning to watch have been dubbed in French, so I've no idea what sort of g they have in the original. Signatureathel > In article > <dddd63a7-b9fd-4e00-a0d8-4296444b1...@p36g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > - Show quoted text - "The lady would remind you, please, "Her name is not Lost Angie Lees-- "Nor Angie anything whatever. "She hopes her friends will be so clever "To share her fit historic pride: "The G shall not be jellified. "O long, G hard, and rhyme with 'yes'-- "And all about Loce Ang-el-ess." From the 1870s, addressed to the boomers (and tourists) who followed the Southern Pacific railroad to southern California. Folks who lived there during the first half of the 20th century have pronounced it "loss ang-gless"; folks who've lived there later have told me that is wrong and pronounced it "loss anj-uh-luss." In my hearing, at least -- the folks mentioned are mostly relatives. > [ ... ] > "The lady would remind you, please, > "Her name is not Lost Angie Lees-- That's almost the only one you'll hear in England (with "loss" rather than "lost"), other than from people who've lived there. Most people in England have no idea how Spanish is pronounced, and not much more idea how US names of Spanish origin are pronounced[1]. (A link that I don't remember pressing, so I'm not sure who posted it, suggests that the people who work at the the Los Angeles Almanac don't have much clue either about how Spanish is pronounced: "San Pedro as 'San Pee-dro' rather than the Spanish 'San Pey-dro.'" -- there is no way the first (or the second, for that matter) vowel in Pedro is a diphthong, and there is no attempt at indicating that the d is quite different from an English d). Does anyone apart from me remember Newsroom, a truly excellent news programme put out by a public TV network in the late 1960s (I forget what the network is called, but the particular station I used to watch was KQED in San Francisco -- I think it was actually produced in San Francisco, so probably it was from KQED itself)? It went on for an hour every night, contained no trivia, and was presided over by Mel Wax. Except in one particular his accent struck me as a normal educated US one, but he pronounced Los Angeles in typically British way. > "Nor Angie anything whatever. > "She hopes her friends will be so clever > "To share her fit historic pride: > "The G shall not be jellified. > "O long, G hard, and rhyme with 'yes'-- > "And all about Loce Ang-el-ess." I don't remember hearing it pronounced to rhyme with "yes",... > From the 1870s, addressed to the boomers (and tourists) who followed > the Southern Pacific railroad to southern California. Folks who lived > there during the first half of the 20th century have pronounced it > "loss ang-gless"; folks who've lived there later have told me that is > wrong and pronounced it "loss anj-uh-luss." but I often heard it pronounced more or less like that, except that to my ear it was more "loss anj-luss" (I'm assuming the u is a schwa in typical AmE fashion, though it wouldn't be read as a schwa by most BrE speakers). [1] One exception: La Jolla is usually pronounced more or less correctly by BrE speakers, probably because the only people who pronounce it at all are academics or people who've been there, and because a spelling-pronunciation attracts immediate ridicule. Signatureathel >> [ ... ] > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >there is no attempt at indicating that the d is quite different from an >English d). If you're going to attempt phhonetics here you ought to write "Sahn Pey-dro" >Does anyone apart from me remember Newsroom, a truly excellent news >programme put out by a public TV network in the late 1960s (I forget >what the network is called, but the particular station I used to watch >was KQED in San Francisco -- I think it was actually produced in San >Francisco, so probably it was from KQED itself)? It went on for an hour >every night, contained no trivia, and was presided over by Mel Wax. It was on KQED and was used as a replacement for the locally striking newspapers. I think we can make too big a fuss about how Americans pronounce the names of cities with Spanish-originating names. Nobody's calling for San Francisco to be called "Sahn Frahn-SEE-sko" with the "R" rolled. The simple fact is that they are now American cities and some leeway should be permitted (although perhaps the likes of "La Jaw-la" might be scoffed at. I remember long ago someone tellin me at an I-8 rest area that they had just come through "Jyla Bend". Certainly htere are plenty of places with foreign names that we mangle. Back in my home state of Ohio there is Man-ta-way" (Mantua) and "Pickaway" (Piqua). The Youngstown airport is in "Vy-EN-a" (Vienna) and much construction machinery is made in "LY-ma" (Lima). I'm sure almost eveyone has a list of local place names of this ilk. Here in Tucson we Anglos say "TOO-sahn" while the local Mexican population says "Took-SAHN", which is closer to the old Indian word it's derived from. (When I first moved here in the 1960s some locals still said "Too-SAHN") Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>> [ ... ] >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > If you're going to attempt phhonetics here you ought to write > "Sahn Pey-dro" That's not me writing it. It's a verbatim quotation from the Los Angeles Almanac. I thought that ought to have been clear from the quotation marks. In any case, I'm not sure that your "Sahn Pey-dro" is any better than what they wrote. >> Does anyone apart from me remember Newsroom, a truly excellent news >> programme put out by a public TV network in the late 1960s (I forget [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > It was on KQED and was used as a replacement for the locally > striking newspapers. It may have started that way, but it continued after the strike was over. Signatureathel >>The interesting thing is that the first Chicago he pronounced with a >>weak but still Spanish accent, as in the first two syllables in >>Chicano or, specifically, the ch in chair. > >Uh, that's not a Spanish accent, Why would you say that? Some non-Spanish Chicagoans can say it that way too, but it absolutely is the Spanish pronunciation. And I'm sure there are plenty Latinos in Chicago now. After all, Marty Kaufman had been organizing "Mexicans in Chicago. When I left Chicago in 1970, I drove to San Antonio and hitchhiked from there. Every car or truck I got into in northern Mexico, the drivers asked me the same things. When I didn't understand the question in Spanish, they translated to English. If I answered in English, they translated what I said to Spanish. So I would learn. One question was De donde viene? Where do you come from? The USA. Los Estados Unidos. Que parte? Chicago, I would say, with a sh sound. Chicago, every one of them would reply, with a chair sound. > that's a Chicago accent--though I could >never keep straight which side of town it's from, It's from the Latino part of town, and the Slovenian part if there is one. > and people from >elsewhere in the city will insist that it's WRONG WRONG WRONG. > >¬R There's really no such thing as a Loser's Club. --Spot >http://users.bestweb.net/~notr/emopvere.html Sorry! 1019 SignaturePosters should say where they live, and for which area they are asking questions. I have lived in Western Pa. 10 years Indianapolis 10 years Chicago 6 years Brooklyn, NY 12 years Baltimore 26 years > It's from the Latino part of town, and the Slovenian part if there is > one. The people I've known that insisted "tchicago" was the correct local pronunciation all had English or German names and otherwise ordinary American accents. ¬R >> It's from the Latino part of town, and the Slovenian part if there is >> one. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >¬R Well, that leaves the question, why did he pronounce it one way the first time and a different way 6 seconds later? SignaturePosters should say where they live, and for which area they are asking questions. I have lived in Western Pa. 10 years Indianapolis 10 years Chicago 6 years Brooklyn, NY 12 years Baltimore 26 years >Well, that leaves the question, why did he pronounce it one way the >first time and a different way 6 seconds later? People rarely speak perfectly, or perfectly consistently. I've heard myself say "enn-velope" and "ahn-velope" in the same sentence, and then repeat the same sentence again with them reversed. When it's a matter of a local accent, whether one's own partially suppressed or one partially picked up through association, I think random variation is a more likely explanation than determination by some complex subconscious process. If he'd said "Mekhicanos from Tchicago" it would be a different matter. ¬R Blood is useless, outside its original container. http://users.bestweb.net/~notr/davidcar.html --Don Rauf >>Well, that leaves the question, why did he pronounce it one way the >>first time and a different way 6 seconds later? > >People rarely speak perfectly, or perfectly consistently. I've heard >myself say "enn-velope" and "ahn-velope" in the same sentence, and then >repeat the same sentence again with them reversed. Really! Wow. You sound much more interesting than he does :) > When it's a matter of >a local accent, whether one's own partially suppressed or one partially >picked up through association, I think random variation is a more likely >explanation than determination by some complex subconscious process. If >he'd said "Mekhicanos from Tchicago" it would be a different matter. Okay. >¬R Blood is useless, outside its original container. >http://users.bestweb.net/~notr/davidcar.html --Don Rauf SignaturePosters should say where they live, and for which area they are asking questions. I have lived in Western Pa. 10 years Indianapolis 10 years Chicago 6 years Brooklyn, NY 12 years Baltimore 26 years >> It's from the Latino part of town, and the Slovenian part if there is >> one. > >The people I've known that insisted "tchicago" was the correct local >pronunciation all had English or German names and otherwise ordinary >American accents. Like Cyril Kovsky, know to his friends as 'Cy'? SignatureIan |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2012 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.