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Discussion Groups / English Usage / July 2009THE TRENDY ŒTHE¹
From Safire's column. I've heard this usage for decades if not my whole life, so "trendy" doesn't fit as far as I'm concerned, and it doesn't sound odd to me in the slightest. +++ THE TRENDY ŒTHE¹ Voguism-conscious readers will have noted my repeated use of the article the before a noun identifying a name, viz. ³the model Nancy Berg² and ³the political columnist Michael Kinsley.² (You like viz.? So do I. It¹s short for the Latin videlicet, meaning ³namely²; join the viz. kids.) ³I¹d like to know where the now ubiquitous use of Œthe¹ as a modifier for people comes from,² Alan Gandelman e-mails. ³Why is Œarchitect Frank Gehry¹ now Œthe architect Frank Gehry¹? Obviously, it has more to do than simply identifying a person; if it were just that, the person¹s profession or position would suffice. Adding the the seems to me a kind of flattery, an attempt to enhance the person¹s standing, or possibly to tart up the prose itself.² I¹ve gone along with that Times style on identification for years, never challenging it. Because our stylebook provides an admonishing lick but no premise, I called Phil Corbett, The Times¹s deputy news editor and style czar. Here¹s his opinion: ³We try to avoid what we call Œfalse titles¹ ‹ that is, using simple descriptions as though they were formal titles. It¹s ŒGen. John Smith¹ but not Œarchitect John Smith.¹ In most cases, it¹s simple enough just to give the description after the name ‹ ŒJohn Smith, an architect in New York.¹ But if the architect in question is well known, that can seem a bit silly: ŒFrank Gehry, an architect¹ would make us seem clueless. In those cases, we often use the description before the name, with Œthe¹ ‹ Œthe architect Frank Gehry.¹ It provides the description without either seeming overly obvious or resorting to the false-title construction.² A legitimate rationale, but I¹m with Gandelman: inserting the in front of the identifier adds unnecessary emphasis and ‹ to the native speaker ‹ looks and sounds funny. What¹s wrong with a trend-resistant ³architect I. M. Pei²? I¹m calling on my associates, mates, co-workers and colleagues on the copy desk to hasten to the elitist-toy aisle and mop up the trendy the.  Signature"If you can, tell me something happy." - Marybones > From Safire's column. > > I've heard this usage for decades if not my whole life, so "trendy" > doesn't fit as far as I'm concerned, and it doesn't sound odd to me in > the slightest. [article text elided] Just so. And the explanation he received seems satisfactory. Something like "architect John Smith" brings up visions of those European title-mad petty officials, "assistant chief station-master Rudloph Schnibble" and the like. SignatureCordially, Eric Walker, Owlcroft House http://owlcroft.com/english/ > From Safire's column. > > I've heard this usage for decades if not my whole life, so "trendy" > doesn't fit as far as I'm concerned, and it doesn't sound odd to me in > the slightest. Nor to me. What on earth is he fussing about? Maybe it's pondial. "Journalist William Safire" seems American to me, and I'd write "the journalist William Safire". Signatureathel >> From Safire's column. >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >"Journalist William Safire" seems American to me, and I'd write "the >journalist William Safire". I hadn't seen it until this post, and I took it to be a problem caused by using different character sets. Or does anyone, seriously, in real life, write "oethe"? SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >>> From Safire's column. >>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Or does anyone, seriously, in real life, write "oethe"? What on earth you on about? You purport to be answering me, but I didn't write "oethe" and nothing of mine you you quote suggests that I did. If I had written "oethe" it would probably have been a typo. Signatureathel > > Or does anyone, seriously, in real life, write "oethe"? > > What on earth you on about? You purport to be answering me, but I > didn't write "oethe" and nothing of mine you you quote suggests that I > did. If I had written "oethe" it would probably have been a typo. What he's on about is trying to troll you into a response. Signature"If you can, tell me something happy." - Marybones >>> Or does anyone, seriously, in real life, write "oethe"? >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > What he's on about is trying to troll you into a response. Well maybe, but I haven't thought of him as a troll. Signatureathel >> > Or does anyone, seriously, in real life, write "oethe"? >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >What he's on about is trying to troll you into a response. What I am on about is that I've never seen anyone using the term "oethe" before, so how can Safire call it "trendy". The subject line is a misnomer. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >>>> Or does anyone, seriously, in real life, write "oethe"? >>> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > The subject line is a misnomer. Not in my newsreader, which says "Re: THE TRENDY THE1". I wouldn't have put it in capitals, and I wouldn't have put the 1, but no matter, there is no O. Signatureathel >>>>> Or does anyone, seriously, in real life, write "oethe"? >>>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >put it in capitals, and I wouldn't have put the 1, but no matter, there >is no O. Well, as I and others have said, several times, there may be a problem with different character sets, but it seems that trolls like MC have ignored that and are going round saying "Let's you and him fight". SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >>>> From Safire's column. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >didn't write "oethe" and nothing of mine you you quote suggests that I >did. If I had written "oethe" it would probably have been a typo. The subject line reads "Re: THE TRENDY ITHE' " in my newsreader's format. I thought the thread was going to be about new ithe cream flavors. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>>>> From Safire's column. >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > >I thought the thread was going to be about new ithe cream flavors. You're Tony Cooper! SignatureEgbert White WAmE > >>> From Safire's column. > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > didn't write "oethe" and nothing of mine you you quote suggests that I > did. If I had written "oethe" it would probably have been a typo. That is what I am getting as well. There seems to some problem with character mapping for some of us. John Kane, Kingston ON Canada >>>> From Safire's column. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >didn't write "oethe" and nothing of mine you you quote suggests that I >did. If I had written "oethe" it would probably have been a typo. I am referring to the subject of this thread, viz. Re: THE TRENDY THE¹ And I have never seen the "oethe" referred to the the subject line before this thread. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > Or does anyone, seriously, in real life, write "oethe"? Oh, for heaven's sake... do try and keep up. Signature"If you can, tell me something happy." - Marybones > From Safire's column. > [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > I¹m calling on my associates, mates, co-workers and colleagues on the > copy desk to hasten to the elitist-toy aisle and mop up the trendy the. I'm surprised that Safire, a man of venerable years, doesn't think of omitting the "the" as the new trend, once mostly limited to /Time/, and sounding funny to native speakers. Anyway, I'm glad to hear that there's a trend away from the odious "anarthrous occupational nominal premodifier" construction that he thinks is normal. However, the idea that the "the" adds fulsome emphasis is new to me, and I'll probably put it in the Wikipedia article. So thanks, MC. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_title_(English_usage) As I've said before, that article can use some improvements, especially a better title. (And I see there are some problems talking about the title of an article that's about articles and titles.) -- Jerry Friedman > [ ... ] > I'm surprised that Safire, a man of venerable years, doesn't think of > omitting the "the" as the new trend, once mostly limited to /Time/, > and sounding funny to native speakers. .. I'm glad you mentioned that, because although upthread I suggested that I saw omitting "the" (in this sort of context) as American, I realize now that I originally saw it as Timespeak. Over the years Timespeak has come to resemble English more than it did, say, in the 1950s, it has also had an influence on ordinary English. Signatureathel > From Safire's column. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > THE TRENDY OTHE¹ I don't suppose you could re-post the article in such a way that I could understand what's going on? Something to do with your settings but, eg, the word after "TRENDY" in your subject line comes out here as an OE merged into a ligature THE followed by a superscript 1. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford >> From Safire's column. >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >word after "TRENDY" in your subject line comes out here as an OE merged into >a ligature THE followed by a superscript 1. It's a very common effect of pasting material from web pages containing non-ascii characters. Only a small amount of effort is required to save the result in ascii form and paste that, with any necessary corrections, into your newsreader's composition window, which is what I do when I remember. SignatureDon Aitken Mail to the From: address is not read. To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com" >On Sat, 18 Jul 2009 18:01:57 +0100, "John Dean" ><john-dean@fraglineone.net> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >necessary corrections, into your newsreader's composition window, >which is what I do when I remember. I was very disappointed not to find all those footnotes. SignaturePaul > I was very disappointed not to find all those footnotes. Send $5,000,000 and I'll release them! Signature"If you can, tell me something happy." - Marybones > >I don't suppose you could re-post the article in such a way that I could > >understand what's going on? Something to do with your settings but, eg, the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > necessary corrections, into your newsreader's composition window, > which is what I do when I remember. I'll give that a whirl next time. Signature"If you can, tell me something happy." - Marybones > I don't suppose you could re-post the article in such a way that I could > understand what's going on? Something to do with your settings but, eg, the > word after "TRENDY" in your subject line comes out here as an OE merged into > a ligature THE followed by a superscript 1. I don't know why that happens, but I believe it has something to do with the news reader software (MT Newswatcher for Mac) I use and the way it handles such things as quotation marks. Most people don't have any problem with it, but I noticed that one of the first replies munged it in the way you mention. I'm not about to change my software, since there aren't any alternatives, but if there's a setting I can change I will gladly do so - maybe someone can advise? I wonder what you see if you look for the post using Google groups... Signature"If you can, tell me something happy." - Marybones > In article <7cedppF26eka...@mid.individual.net>, > > > I don't suppose you could re-post the article in such a way that I could > > understand what's going on? Something to do with your settings but, eg, the > > word after "TRENDY" in your subject line comes out here as an OE merged into > > a ligature THE followed by a superscript 1. ... > I wonder what you see if you look for the post using Google groups... THE TRENDY <OE ligature>THE<superscript 1>. Your new version looked the same in GG as it did in the newsreaders people have cited so far: the title was fine, but in the text the left quotation mark came out as a superscript 2, and the right, a superscript 3. -- Jerry Friedman In article <438a5ad6-9553-48a5-8ee6-419fe899a077@q11g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>, > > I wonder what you see if you look for the post using Google groups... > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > quotation mark came out as a superscript 2, and the right, a > superscript 3. It doesn't happen often, but I'll bear it in mind and take preventive measures... if I remember! Signature"If you can, tell me something happy." - Marybones MC wrote... >> I don't suppose you could re-post the article in such a way that >> I could understand what's going on? Something to do with your [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > alternatives, but if there's a setting I can change I will gladly > do so - maybe someone can advise? It might be enough just to turn on MIME in your client. See http://www.smfr.org/mtnw/docs/TextEncoding.html#Text_Encodings_and_MIME SignatureNoel > > I don't suppose you could re-post the article in such a way that I could > > understand what's going on? Something to do with your settings but, eg, the > > word after "TRENDY" in your subject line comes out here as an OE merged into > > a ligature THE followed by a superscript 1. > > I don't know why that happens, It's because you've copied something with fancy curly quotes that are non-standard 8-bit ASCII. Fonts differ in what they encode with the 8th bit. In my font your open quote is rendered as a vertical line intended for use in writing borders and the close quote is an almost solid black block, evidently intended for making thick borders. You also used a curly apostrophe that appears in my font as another border character: double vertical lines joined by double horizontal lines coming in from the left to form a T intersection. I believe these are the original IBM PC high ASCII characters. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email > I don't suppose you could re-post the article in such a way that I could > understand what's going on? Something to do with your settings but, eg, the > word after "TRENDY" in your subject line comes out here as an OE merged into > a ligature THE followed by a superscript 1. I copied it from from the NYT site, pasted it into Word, and saved it as .txt - copied *that*, and will paste it below. Can you report back? ___ THE TRENDY 'THE' Voguism-conscious readers will have noted my repeated use of the article the before a noun identifying a name, viz. ³the model Nancy Berg² and ³the political columnist Michael Kinsley.² (You like viz.? So do I. It's short for the Latin videlicet, meaning ³namely²; join the viz. kids.) ³I'd like to know where the now ubiquitous use of 'the' as a modifier for people comes from,² Alan Gandelman e-mails. ³Why is 'architect Frank Gehry' now 'the architect Frank Gehry'? Obviously, it has more to do than simply identifying a person; if it were just that, the person's profession or position would suffice. Adding the the seems to me a kind of flattery, an attempt to enhance the person's standing, or possibly to tart up the prose itself.² I've gone along with that Times style on identification for years, never challenging it. Because our stylebook provides an admonishing lick but no premise, I called Phil Corbett, The Times's deputy news editor and style czar. Here's his opinion: ³We try to avoid what we call 'false titles' - that is, using simple descriptions as though they were formal titles. It's 'Gen. John Smith' but not 'architect John Smith.' In most cases, it's simple enough just to give the description after the name - 'John Smith, an architect in New York.' But if the architect in question is well known, that can seem a bit silly: 'Frank Gehry, an architect' would make us seem clueless. In those cases, we often use the description before the name, with 'the' - 'the architect Frank Gehry.' It provides the description without either seeming overly obvious or resorting to the false-title construction.² A legitimate rationale, but I'm with Gandelman: inserting the in front of the identifier adds unnecessary emphasis and - to the native speaker - looks and sounds funny. What's wrong with a trend-resistant ³architect I. M. Pei²? I'm calling on my associates, mates, co-workers and colleagues on the copy desk to hasten to the elitist-toy aisle and mop up the trendy the. Signature"If you can, tell me something happy." - Marybones >> I don't suppose you could re-post the article in such a way that I could >> understand what's going on? Something to do with your settings but, eg, the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >__ Here is the start of it:_ >THE TRENDY 'THE' >Voguism-conscious readers will have noted my repeated use of the article >the before a noun identifying a name, viz. ³the model Nancy Berg² and >³the political columnist Michael Kinsley.² (You like viz.? So do I. It's >short for the Latin videlicet, meaning ³namely²; join the viz. kids.) SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.english.usage) >> I don't suppose you could re-post the article in such a way that I >> could understand what's going on? Something to do with your settings [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I copied it from from the NYT site, pasted it into Word, and saved it > as .txt - copied *that*, and will paste it below. Can you report back? Much better. Now I see it's about "the trendy 'the' " Still weirdness in that many of the 'the' words are prefixed with a superscript 3 as are some other words and some words are suffixed with a superscript 2. After doing similar things in my posts some years ago, I also resorted to the copy and paste trick as recommended by I-forget-Who and no-one has complained since. However, I don't past into Word since that can still do some fancy stuff with text, but into plain, old-fashioned MS Notepad which I keep in my system tray for that very purpose. Anyway, thanks for re-posting. In answer to your original line of enquiry, both styles look OK to me. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford > plain, old-fashioned MS Notepad which I keep in my > system tray Does this exist in the Mac world? Signature"If you can, tell me something happy." - Marybones > > plain, old-fashioned MS Notepad which I keep in my > > system tray > > Does this exist in the Mac world? Mac OS 9 and earlier had _SimpleText_ (the successor of _TeachText_), which could read fairly few file-formats and was limited to 32K. Mac OS X comes with _TextEdit_, which has somewhat less rudimentary styling capabilities and can handle quite a wide range of formats (including Rich Text & HTML) and character encodings, including support for right-to-left scripts. If there's a size limit I haven't yet encountered it -- and at work I frequently use _TE_ to open multi-megabyte PostScript &c. files (most often just to find out what application created them, rarely for editing). It can even open MS Word's .doc files, although it loses any independent text-frames or tables the original may have incorporated, also some of the formatting. The BSD-Unix infrastructure of OS X includes some text-editors traditionally found in that environment (_vi_, _pico_, & _Emacs_); these can be accessed through the Terminal. SignatureOdysseus >>> I don't suppose you could re-post the article in such a way that I >>> could understand what's going on? Something to do with your settings [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >with text, but into plain, old-fashioned MS Notepad which I keep in my >system tray for that very purpose. You can do it via Word, but saving the result as a file of type .txt does not solve all the problems, since Word uses that extension for four diffeerent types of file. You need to go to Word's Save menu and select "Text Only" from the dropdown list labelled "Save as Type". SignatureDon Aitken Mail to the From: address is not read. To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com" > > I don't suppose you could re-post the article in such a way that I > > could understand what's going on? Something to do with your [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I copied it from from the NYT site, pasted it into Word, and saved it > as .txt - copied that, and will paste it below. Can you report back? One problem is that your newsreader is not designating a character set for posts. That means that each that reads the message will have to select one, which might not be the correct one. My newsreader defaults to US ASCII. Brian SignatureDay 167 of the "no grouchy usenet posts" project MC wrote on Sat, 18 Jul 2009 07:51:53 -0400: > I've heard this usage for decades if not my whole life, so > "trendy" doesn't fit as far as I'm concerned, and it doesn't > sound odd to me in the slightest. > +++ > THE TRENDY ŒTHE¹ > Voguism-conscious readers will have noted my repeated use of > the article the before a noun identifying a name, viz. ³the > model Nancy Berg² and ³the political columnist Michael > Kinsley.² (You like viz.? So do I. It¹s short for the Latin > videlicet, meaning ³namely²; join the viz. kids.) I can't answer your question but what is an OETHE etc? The O and E are a ligature. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > MC wrote on Sat, 18 Jul 2009 07:51:53 -0400: > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >I can't answer your question but what is an OETHE etc? The O and E are a >ligature. As I said, it looks like a character set problem to me, not a usage one. I'd never heard of THE TRENDY OETHE until this post. So it really can't be all THAT trendy, and I can't imagine where anyone would have heard it for decades. . SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > >> THE TRENDY ŒTHE¹ > > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > So it really can't be all THAT trendy, and I can't imagine where anyone would > have heard it for decades. . Someone is whooshing someone. Or trying to. Signature"If you can, tell me something happy." - Marybones >> I'd never heard of THE TRENDY OETHE until this post. >> >> So it really can't be all THAT trendy, and I can't imagine where anyone would >> have heard it for decades. . > >Someone is whooshing someone. Or trying to. Yes, and it seems that the someone is you. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk Steve Hayes filted: >>Someone is whooshing someone. Or trying to. > >Yes, and it seems that the someone is you. Me?...which someone?...this?...that?... (When I woke up this morning I had no idea I was going to try composing a completely pronominal sentence today)....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? >Steve Hayes filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >(When I woke up this morning I had no idea I was going to try composing a >completely pronominal sentence today)....r The someone is the someone I was replying to, viz. the troll MC, who appears to be trying to turn a discrepancy in character sets into a pretext for a fight. It appears that people see different things in the subject line. Some see "THE TRENDY OETHE" while others see "THE TRENDY THE1". That led me to wonder what an "oethe" is and why Safire thinks it is trendy. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk |
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