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Discussion Groups / English Usage / October 2009Relative clause
I wonder if this sentence is correct: "ministers want more competition in a sector they believe is too concentrated" It sounds somehow weird to me even it may be correct. However, would this alternate form be correct ? "ministers wnat more competition in a sector which they believe it is too concentrated" > I wonder if this sentence is correct: > > "ministers want more competition in a sector they believe is too > concentrated" If arranged as a sentence (initial cap, period), Yes. > It sounds somehow weird to me even it may be correct. However, would > this alternate form be correct ? > > "ministers want more competition in a sector which they believe it is > too concentrated" Same remark, but No. Subtract the "it" and it passes, but the original is better. If you feel the need, you can insert the elided "that" before "they".  SignatureCordially, Eric Walker, Owlcroft House http://owlcroft.com/english/ > I wonder if this sentence is correct: > > "ministers want more competition in a sector they believe is too concentrated" > > It sounds somehow weird to me even it may be correct. It is both correct and unclear. Which sector? Grocery stores? Banking? What the "sector" might be is totally open. > However, would this alternate form be correct ? > > "ministers wnat more competition in a sector which they believe it is too concentrated" No. GFH >I wonder if this sentence is correct: > > "ministers want more competition in a sector they believe is too > concentrated" I believe this sentence needs a finisher (there is no full stop or period to end it) or more context to show what is "too concentrated.") Otherwise, without "where they believe it(see below)", I would like to see "congested." or "compressed." Those are complete in describing a sector, while "concentrated." needs a target or object, like "orange juice, effort, solution". > It sounds somehow weird to me even it may be correct. However, would > this alternate form be correct ? > > "ministers wnat more competition in a sector which they believe it > is too concentrated" I would say "in a sector where they believe it ( the competition or whatever else the antecedent might be) is". >I wonder if this sentence is correct: > >"ministers want more competition in a sector they believe is too concentrated" > >It sounds somehow weird to me even it may be correct. You have omitted a word beween even and it. Probably "if". >However, would this alternate form be correct ? > >"ministers wnat more competition in a sector which they believe it is too concentrated" But here you have added a word that shouldn't be there, "it". Sidely sounds very British, but this seems like a common mistake for those whose native language is Spanish, or maybe any Latin language. Or any language that wouldn't use an article like "it" where English does. Maybe a language which woudln't use "it" at all in "it is too concentrated"**, so in English, people aren't sure when to use it and when not to. **"Es muy concentrado", iirc. No "it". So it's hard to have a feel for when "it" is needed and when it's not. Here the word "sector" is already there, and it sort of fills the role of "it". To see what is correct, rephrase this way, "The ministers believe the sector is too concentrated." Not "The ministers believe the sector it is too comcentrated." Despite Eric's post, I don't see why "which" is better than "that", although neither is necessary here. There normally is a relative pronoun connecting an adjectival clause to the word it modifies, but here it can be omitted with no confusion and usually is. It flows more nicely without the word which or that. SignaturePosters should say where they live, and for which area they are asking questions. I was born and then lived in Western Pa. 10 years Indianapolis 7 years Chicago 6 years Brooklyn, NY 12 years Baltimore 26 years Thanks all, The sentence may seem unclear because taken out of the context, which is about banking industry in Britain. All of you are stating that the fist sentence is correct, I get it. I was just bewildered by this sentence with 2 embedding clauses. > Thanks all, > > The sentence may seem unclear because taken out of the context, which is about banking industry in Britain. > All of you are stating that the fist sentence is correct, I get it. I was just bewildered by this sentence with 2 > embedding clauses. Very unclear. I thought that "ministers" preached religion from the pulpit. Oh, perhaps politicians do also. Bow down to mother earth and worship global warming. GFH >> Thanks all, >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >pulpit. Oh, perhaps politicians do also. Bow down to mother earth >and worship global warming. Some ministers preach. Other ministers are members of a government (AmE: executive branch). From the COED: http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/minister?view=uk noun 1 a head of a government department. 2 a diplomatic agent, usually ranking below an ambassador, representing a state or sovereign in a foreign country. 3 a member of the clergy, especially in the Presbyterian and Nonconformist Churches. 4 archaic, a person or thing used to achieve or convey something: ministers of death. verb 1 (minister to) attend to the needs of. 2 archaic, provide. ORIGIN Latin, 'servant', from minus 'less'. The relevant menaings are 2 and 1. 2: a member of the clergy is a servant of God. 1: a head of a government department is a servant of the Monarch, President or People (depending on the system of government). SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.english.usage) >Some ministers preach. Other ministers are members of a government (AmE: >executive branch). [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > 3 a member of the clergy, especially in the Presbyterian and > Nonconformist Churches. Do people really belong to nonconformist churches? What do they say? Oh, yes, I'm a member of the First Nonconformist Church of Squigley. Why don't you come some time? If later they start to conform, do they have to leave? > 4 archaic, a person or thing used to achieve or convey something: > ministers of death. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >1: a head of a government department is a servant of the Monarch, > President or People (depending on the system of government). SignaturePosters should say where they live, and for which area they are asking questions. I was born and then lived in Western Pa. 10 years Indianapolis 7 years Chicago 6 years Brooklyn, NY 12 years Baltimore 26 years > Do people really belong to nonconformist churches? Not anymore. Now they're Free. ¬R > > Do people really belong to nonconformist churches? > > Not anymore. Now they're Free. Scotland's nonconformist churches are colloquially known as the Wee Frees. SignatureOdysseus >> > Do people really belong to nonconformist churches? >> >> Not anymore. Now they're Free. > >Scotland's nonconformist churches are colloquially known as the Wee >Frees. Only one specific nonconformist Church in Scotalnd is known as the Wee Frees. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wee_Frees Readers beware! What nonconformist Churches do not conform with is not the same in Scotland and in England. In Scotland the "established" Church with which others do not conform is the Church of Scotland which is presbyterian. In England the "established" Church with which others no not conform is the Church of Enland which is episcopalian. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.english.usage) >>Some ministers preach. Other ministers are members of a government (AmE: >>executive branch). [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >If later they start to conform, do they have to leave? "Non-conformist" is a term used in BrE with a technical meaning. OED: nonconformist, n. and adj. Originally (in the early 17th cent.): a person adhering to the doctrine but not the usages of the Church of England (now hist.). Later (esp. after the Act of Uniformity of 1662 and the consequent ejection from their livings of those ministers who refused to conform): a member of a Church which is separated from the Church of England; (in modern use, usually) a Protestant Dissenter. In England the various Christian Churches are described as Church of England, Roman Catholic or Non-conformist. There are no Churches with "Non-conformist" in the name. "Non-conformist" is just a way of referring to them on those few occasions when it is useful. The non-conformist churches in England describe themselves as "free churches". There is more information on this website, include a list of memners of the Free Churches Group: http://www.churches-together.net/Groups/42986/Churches_Together_in/About_us_Dire ctories/Free_Churches_Group/Free_Churches_Group.aspx or http://tinyurl.com/yfoxf85 Note that this refers to England only. Terminology and organisations are different in Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. In Ireland (North and South) the three categories were historically Catholic, Protestant and Dissenter. "Protestant" meant the Church of Ireland (Anglican and Episcopalian). Today the term "Protestant" is used in Ireland to mean "non-Catholic Christian". >> 4 archaic, a person or thing used to achieve or convey something: >> ministers of death. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >>1: a head of a government department is a servant of the Monarch, >> President or People (depending on the system of government). SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.english.usage) >>>Some ministers preach. Other ministers are members of a government (AmE: >>>executive branch). [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] >"Non-conformist" is just a way of referring to them on those few >occasions when it is useful. Thanks a lot. I may have heard this usage once maybe 30 years ago, but totally forgot it. My mother referred to nonconformists quite a few times, but she meant people who didn't wear socks under their shoes or other totally secular kinds of nonconformism. I'll read what follows and thank you for the webpage, which I will also read. >The non-conformist churches in England describe themselves as "free >churches". There is more information on this website, include a list of [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >>>1: a head of a government department is a servant of the Monarch, >>> President or People (depending on the system of government). SignaturePosters should say where they live, and for which area they are asking questions. I was born and then lived in Western Pa. 10 years Indianapolis 7 years Chicago 6 years Brooklyn, NY 12 years Baltimore 26 years |
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