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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2010to build a fire
Hi group, about the name of the title of Jack London's story "To Build a Fire". Question: Is "build a fire" idiomatic? It strikes me as odd, I would have expected "to make a fire" or "to light a fire". Is it perhaps an Americanism, outdated usage, a regional dialect or slang, or perhaps jargon in a particular group? If so which? Thank you :)  SignatureBut when the music changed, the plan was rearranged http://www.wschwanke.de/ http://www.fotos-aus-der-luft.de/ usenet_20031215 (AT) wschwanke (DOT) de > Hi group, > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > an Americanism, outdated usage, a regional dialect or slang, or > perhaps jargon in a particular group? If so which? It's idiomatic. If it sounds a bit old-fashioned to some people, that could be because lighting fires is no longer an everyday experience. It's not specifically American. The OED quotes the English poet Southey: "Fires are built before the tents." And Kipling: "Kim bought a handful of dung-cakes to build a fire." And a bang up-to-date example from Scotland: "But she'll no let me build a fire on the kitchen flair." SignatureJames >> Hi group, >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >And a bang up-to-date example from Scotland: >"But she'll no let me build a fire on the kitchen flair." Looking at the times recorded by my news reader, James's response appeared three minutes before Wolfgang's question. As a result, posts are out of order in the list presented to me. Such things are far from being unique, as I recall, but it was odd to observe. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>> Hi group, >>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > are out of order in the list presented to me. Such things are far from > being unique, as I recall, but it was odd to observe. Such things /are/ unique, in the sense that when they happen, there is a bug or mis-configuration in your news reader, server, or both. In this particular instance, however, all is well - Wolfgang made not one posting with the question, but two. The first one, to which James replied at 04:20, was made at 04:08. The second one, which you apparently saw, was made at 04:23. (All times are my local time, of course.) SignatureYou'd be crazy to e-mail me with the crazy. But leave the div alone. > >>> Hi group, > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > -- > You'd be crazy to e-mail me with the crazy. But leave the div alone. Whoops! Sorry about above blank post. My first at this site. I was going to add that a few weeks ago on the 5th of November people all over the UK were building bonfires. >>>> Hi group, >>>> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >replied at 04:20, was made at 04:08. The second one, which you >apparently saw, was made at 04:23. (All times are my local time, of course.) That explains it. Thank you. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > Question: Is "build a fire" idiomatic? It strikes me as odd, I would > have expected "to make a fire" or "to light a fire". Is it perhaps an > Americanism, outdated usage, a regional dialect or slang, or perhaps > jargon in a particular group? If so which? It is commonplace; normally it refers to a fire of wood logs, whether outdoors or in a fireplace. I presume it derives from the fact that it is necessary to literally build the log structure if one is to obtain anything like a decent blaze. And the building is not necessarily complete when the fire is first lit, because often more fuel is added afterwards, and, at least to the skilled, that is not simply a matter of dumping some more wood on (or in) any old whichaway, but of continuing the "building" process of a proper structure. There are several ways to approach building a fire, each of which has its ardent advocates. (There is an old saying that there are three things that every man alive thinks he can do better than the man currently working at them: run the country, start a fire, and manage a major-league ball club.) Just do a Google on "build a fire" and you will get countless references to sets of directions. SignatureCordially, Eric Walker, Owlcroft House http://owlcroft.com/english/ > > Question: Is "build a fire" idiomatic? It strikes me as odd, I would > > have expected "to make a fire" or "to light a fire". Is it perhaps an [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > dumping some more wood on (or in) any old whichaway, but of continuing > the "building" process of a proper structure. Build a fire seems standard usage for correct initiation of all sorts of fires, including household grates or stoves (with coke or coal, more commonly than with wood fuel) under boilers for steam engines, etc. All aim at a steady output of a large but determinate amount of heat (enough for the contemplated work but not dangerously too much) but that starts from nothing (no fire, thus no heat) thus must be "built." SignatureDon Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) >Hi group, > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Americanism, outdated usage, a regional dialect or slang, or perhaps >jargon in a particular group? If so which? You build a fire before you light it. That means arranging the wood in the right order, and so on. Once you have built it, then you light it and it should burn properly, not to slowly, not to quickly. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > You build a fire before you light it. > > That means arranging the wood in the right order, and so on. Once you > have built it, then you light it and it should burn properly, not to > slowly, not to quickly. Conserving o's? SignatureSkitt (AmE) >> You build a fire before you light it. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Conserving o's? Definitely. Around here we're saving o's and sending them to Afghanistan, so it can become Afghanistoan. And later Afghoanistoan. SignaturePosters should say where they live, and for which area they are asking questions. I was born and then lived in Western Pa. 10 years Indianapolis 7 years Chicago 6 years Brooklyn, NY 12 years Baltimore 26 years >> You build a fire before you light it. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Conserving o's? Typs, I think. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > Hi group, > about the name of the title of Jack London's story "To Build a Fire". Hm. Well into Lewis Carroll territory there! What was the name of the title of the story called? SignatureAndy Walker Nottingham >> Hi group, >> about the name of the title of Jack London's story "To Build a Fire". > > Hm. Well into Lewis Carroll territory there! What was the > name of the title of the story called? I superseded that version hours ago with <bpir07-9g6.ln1@wschwanke.de> You mustn't read it. :) SignatureBut when the music changed, the plan was rearranged http://www.wschwanke.de/ http://www.fotos-aus-der-luft.de/ usenet_20031215 (AT) wschwanke (DOT) de > Hi group, > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Thank you :) Seems to me London could have chosen one of the other phrases you mention, with the same /meaning/, but "building" calls up a more substantial product, which as you could see from context would have been more desirable. Failure to /build/ a fire implies a greater discrepancy between wish and fact. SignatureFrank ess >> Hi group, >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >been more desirable. Failure to /build/ a fire implies a greater >discrepancy between wish and fact. Having quickly skimmed through the story at: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/To_Build_a_Fire I'd say that "build" is the appropriate word. It conveys the idea of an accumulation, a "build-up", as well the actual lighting of the fire. In the story a man in very cold conditions in timberland gathered wood, lit some of it and then very carefully added more wood to build it into a decent sized fire. Then disaster struck. Now the tree under which he had done this carried a weight of snow on its boughs. No wind had blown for weeks, and each bough was fully freighted. Each time he had pulled a twig he had communicated a slight agitation to the tree--an imperceptible agitation, so far as he was concerned, but an agitation sufficient to bring about the disaster. High up in the tree one bough capsized its load of snow. This fell on the boughs beneath, capsizing them. This process continued, spreading out and involving the whole tree. It grew like an avalanche, and it descended without warning upon the man and the fire, and the fire was blotted out! Where it had burned was a mantle of fresh and disordered snow. This lack of heat from a fire led eventually to his death. I suggest that the idea of "building a fire" is a metaphor for the unstoppable accumulation and spread of adverse events. The literal building of a fire led to a metaphorical firestorm of events which led to his death. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.english.usage) > Having quickly skimmed through the story at: > http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/To_Build_a_Fire [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > This lack of heat from a fire led eventually to his death. This interpretation is odd -- but then it is not a very good story, and implausible in its facts. These concern a chap travelling on foot alone in the Yukon winter (temp. minus 50) a distance of at least 30 miles. (At 10 a.m. "he was making four miles an hour," would reach a landmark 10 miles distant at 12.30, and would reach camp by 6 p.m. i.e. in the dark. Night falls at 2 or 3 p.m. in this latitude.) It is in fact highly unlikely that even the fittest man could average 4 m.p.h. on foot (as distinct from ski or snowshoe) in a foot of new-fallen snow on a forest trail already covered by deep snow. He gets his feet wet crossing a frozen creek, thus builds a fire to dry his moccasins. The snow falling off the tree extinguishes his first fire, but then his fingers are too frozen to build another fire: so he eventually dies of exhaustion and exposure. Implausibilities include: 1. Traveling alone in the Yukon winter. 2. Supposed traveling speed afoot in a foot of snow. 3. Failing to carry a pack with emergency supplies, dry footwear, an axe, showshoes in case of unforeseen deep snow etc. (All he carries is a sandwich, a pipe, matches and tinder, and both chewing and smoking tobacco.) 4. When pausing to eat on the trail, the first thing you do is build a fire to make tea or some other hot drink. (Drinking river water will only make you feel cold.) No drink is mentioned in this story. SignatureDon Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) >Hi group, > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Americanism, outdated usage, a regional dialect or slang, or perhaps >jargon in a particular group? If so which? First you have to build a fire. Then you can light it. If you want a good fire, that is. >Thank you :) SignaturePosters should say where they live, and for which area they are asking questions. I was born and then lived in Western Pa. 10 years Indianapolis 7 years Chicago 6 years Brooklyn, NY 12 years Baltimore 26 years >>Hi group, >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >If you want a good fire, that is. Or as in the case of the story being discussed you light a tiny fire and then add more wood to build it into a big fire. Then he got out matches and proceeded to make a fire. From the undergrowth, where high water of the previous spring had lodged a supply of seasoned twigs, he got his firewood. Working carefully from a small beginning, he soon had a roaring fire, SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.english.usage) >>>Hi group, >>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> >>First you have to build a fire. Then you can light it. Perhaps I should have pointed out that I'm talking about a wood fire, but otoh, I figured the OP knew that. >>If you want a good fire, that is. >> >Or as in the case of the story being discussed you light a tiny fire and >then add more wood to build it into a big fire. Very good point. > Then he got out matches and proceeded to make a fire. From the > undergrowth, where high water of the previous spring had lodged a > supply of seasoned twigs, he got his firewood. Working carefully > from a small beginning, he soon had a roaring fire, SignaturePosters should say where they live, and for which area they are asking questions. I was born and then lived in Western Pa. 10 years Indianapolis 7 years Chicago 6 years Brooklyn, NY 12 years Baltimore 26 years >>Hi group, >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >If you want a good fire, that is. In my vernacular, you "make a fire", which includes lighting the wood, or you "build a fire and then light it", illogical as it may sound to "build a fire" when I actually mean stacking some wood over some kindling. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>>Hi group, >>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >"build a fire" when I actually mean stacking some wood over some >kindling. Yes, my vernacular too. Maybe "fire" means "fire-to-be". It's efficient use of words, instead of saying, "build a pile of wood intended for a fire." SignaturePosters should say where they live, and for which area they are asking questions. I was born and then lived in Western Pa. 10 years Indianapolis 7 years Chicago 6 years Brooklyn, NY 12 years Baltimore 26 years >>>>Hi group, >>>> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >It's efficient use of words, instead of saying, "build a pile of wood >intended for a fire." Yes, when I build a fire, much like when I build a dog house, while it may exist in my mind's eye, its physical existence can only be in the future. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE [...] > In my vernacular, you "make a fire", which includes lighting the wood, > or you "build a fire and then light it", illogical as it may sound to > "build a fire" when I actually mean stacking some wood over some > kindling. But is it not so that once the pile is ignited, there is often--depending on location and purpose--a need to continue or enlarge the fire by careful additions of correctly sized and--in particular--placed fuel? Would that not also, then, be part of "building" (or, later, building up) the fire? SignatureCordially, Eric Walker, Owlcroft House http://owlcroft.com/english/ > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Would that not also, then, be part of "building" (or, later, building up) > the fire? I'd go for "building up". If the fire is properly built, then it is relatively easy to add logs or branches. A poorly built one will collapse. SignatureRob Bannister >> [...] >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >I'd go for "building up". If the fire is properly built, then it is >relatively easy to add logs or branches. A poorly built one will collapse. You would go for it, but would you actually say such a thing? SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>> [...] >>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > You would go for it, but would you actually say such a thing? Not sure. "Go and build the fire up a bit" sounds natural enough to me, but I'd probably say "Go and chuck another couple of logs on the fire". SignatureRob Bannister >>>> [...] >>>> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >Not sure. "Go and build the fire up a bit" sounds natural enough to me, >but I'd probably say "Go and chuck another couple of logs on the fire". I suppose that is fine, as long as you didn't rob the logs you chucked. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>>>> [...] >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > I suppose that is fine, as long as you didn't rob the logs you > chucked. I think we're moving into woodchuck territory. SignatureRob Bannister >>>>>> [...] >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > >I think we're moving into woodchuck territory. Logs were bad enough, but I hope Robs don't rob territory from woodchucks, too. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE |
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