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Grammar question

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J X - 05 Jan 2010 21:34 GMT
Are the below sentences correct?  Is there variance or is there a hard
and fast rule?  Where can I point others to educate them, e.g., an
online source addressing this particular issue?

The veterinarians served the Labrador retrievers last because they
were black.

The police officers were disrespectful to our clients because they are
Hispanic.
Leslie Danks - 05 Jan 2010 22:29 GMT
> Are the below sentences correct?  Is there variance or is there a hard
> and fast rule?  Where can I point others to educate them, e.g., an
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> The police officers were disrespectful to our clients because they are
> Hispanic.

Both sentences are ambiguous because there is no way of determining
what "they" refers to. Depending on the meanings intended, I would
rewrite the first one as

"The veterinarians served the Labrador retrievers last because the
retrievers were black."

or

"The veterinarians served the Labrador retrievers last because the
veterinarians were black."

and the second one as

"The police officers were disrespectful to our clients because our clients
are Hispanic."

or

"The police officers were disrespectful to our clients because the police
officers are Hispanic."

Rewrites are also possible using a "therefore" construction instead of
a "because" construction, for example

"The police officers are Hispanic and were therefore disrespectful to our
clients."

or

"Our clients are Hispanic and therefore the police officers were
disrespectful to them."

Signature

Les (BrE)

HVS - 05 Jan 2010 22:33 GMT
On 05 Jan 2010, Leslie Danks wrote

>> Are the below sentences correct?  Is there variance or is there
>> a hard and fast rule?  Where can I point others to educate
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> determining what "they" refers to. Depending on the meanings
> intended, I would rewrite the first one as

-snip-

> and the second one as
>
> "The police officers were disrespectful to our clients because
> our clients are Hispanic."

-snip-

It's interesting that you addressed the ambiguity.

I took the OP's query to be about the agreement of tenses in the
first ("The veterinarians served...because they were black")
contrasted with the clash in the second ("The police officers
were...because they are").

The second one looks wrong to me.

Signature

Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed

contrex - 05 Jan 2010 22:36 GMT
Something a bit US-trollish about the subject matter? Or is it just
me?
HVS - 05 Jan 2010 22:39 GMT
On 05 Jan 2010, contrex wrote

> Something a bit US-trollish about the subject matter? Or is it just
> me?

No, it's not just you;  it has that whiff.

Trying to play a straight bat at the moment to see what happens.

Signature

Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed

Leslie Danks - 05 Jan 2010 22:53 GMT
> Something a bit US-trollish about the subject matter? Or is it just
> me?

No. I wondered, too.

Signature

Les (BrE)

mm - 06 Jan 2010 00:39 GMT
>Something a bit US-trollish about the subject matter? Or is it just
>me?

I think that's the topic he was writing about so he picked sentences
from his own writing.

Although afaik, even racists don't discrimate against black dogs.
Black cats, maybe, but not dogs.  So maybe you're right.  But his two
follow-up posts convince me I was right in the first place.
Signature

Posters should say where they live, and for which area
they are asking questions. I was born and then lived in
Western Pa.   10 years
Indianapolis   7 years
Chicago          6 years
Brooklyn, NY 12 years
Baltimore       26 years

Leslie Danks - 05 Jan 2010 23:04 GMT
> On 05 Jan 2010, Leslie Danks wrote
>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> contrasted with the clash in the second ("The police officers
> were...because they are").

As the OP writes in his reply, you were right about the issue he was
addressing.

> The second one looks wrong to me.

Hmm. As a native speaker of English I learned to speak before I knew what
grammar was. No doubt several experts on the sequence of tenses will
contribute useful comments. However, neither "were" nor "are" seem wrong
to me; even if "were" is prescribed by a rule, the clients are presumably
just as Hispanic now as they were before and, therefore, "are" would not
be wrong (IMESHO).

Signature

Les (BrE)

Bill McCray - 06 Jan 2010 02:59 GMT
>> Are the below sentences correct?  Is there variance or is there a hard
>> and fast rule?  Where can I point others to educate them, e.g., an
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
> "Our clients are Hispanic and therefore the police officers were
> disrespectful to them."

There is a disambiguating (I hope that's a word) convention.  When there
are several words that could be the antecedent and there is no other
indication of which is the actual one, the pronoun refers to the nearest
one.  Thus, "retrievers" and "clients" are the antecedents.  The
sentences would, however, be improved by making the reference clear to
avoid the application of this convention.

Bill in Kentucky
J X - 05 Jan 2010 22:41 GMT
> Are the below sentences correct?  Is there variance or is there a hard
> and fast rule?  Where can I point others to educate them, e.g., an
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> The police officers were disrespectful to our clients because they are
> Hispanic.

Please allow me to rewrite to clarify the issue I intend.

The veterinarians served the retrievers last because the dogs were
black.
The police officers mistreated our clients because the Gomezes are
Hispanic.

Note the use of *were* near the end of the first sentence but the use
of *are* near the end of the second.
Leslie Danks - 05 Jan 2010 23:04 GMT
>> Are the below sentences correct?  Is there variance or is there a hard
>> and fast rule?  Where can I point others to educate them, e.g., an
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> The police officers mistreated our clients because the Gomezes are
> Hispanic.

To continue ploughing my lonely furrow, you have replaced one ambiguity
with another. How do we know for certain that the Gomezes were actually
the clients?

> Note the use of *were* near the end of the first sentence but the use
> of *are* near the end of the second.

I can accept either. Others will probably disagree...

Signature

Les (BrE)
Donning flak jacket.

J X - 05 Jan 2010 23:19 GMT
> Are the below sentences correct?  Is there variance or is there a hard
> and fast rule?  Where can I point others to educate them, e.g., an
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> The police officers were disrespectful to our clients because they are
> Hispanic.

We wouldn't say the man got into the truck because it is red, would
we?  We'd say he got in because it was red, and we'd use *was* even we
knew that the reader knew the truck remained red, right?  Yet when it
comes to the ethnicity of people, I see excellent writers use the
present tense while describing a past event.  And I once observed
someone ridiculing a poster for using the past tense in such a
situation, saying "What, are they no longer xxxx?"
mm - 06 Jan 2010 00:45 GMT
>> Are the below sentences correct?  Is there variance or is there a hard
>> and fast rule?  Where can I point others to educate them, e.g., an
>> online source addressing this particular issue?
>>
>> The veterinarians served the Labrador retrievers last because they
>> were black.

Do people say that veterinatians serve dogs?    Examined, treated,
kicked, yes, but served?

Where I come from physicians don't even serve people.

Clerks, like bakery clerks, and waiters serve customers.

>> The police officers were disrespectful to our clients because they are
>> Hispanic.
>
>We wouldn't say the man got into the truck because it is red, would
>we?  We'd say he got in because it was red, and we'd use *was* even we
>knew that the reader knew the truck remained red, right?  

Trucks don't hcange color often but this comes up also with things
that do change,

They were in Florida is more likely to be accurate than they are in
Florida, when describing something that happened last year in Florida.

>Yet when it
>comes to the ethnicity of people, I see excellent writers use the
>present tense while describing a past event.  And I once observed
>someone ridiculing a poster for using the past tense in such a
>situation, saying "What, are they no longer xxxx?"

I think it's an ongoing problem and I'll let other people post some
more.
Signature

Posters should say where they live, and for which area
they are asking questions. I was born and then lived in
Western Pa.   10 years
Indianapolis   7 years
Chicago          6 years
Brooklyn, NY 12 years
Baltimore       26 years

Glenn Knickerbocker - 05 Jan 2010 23:33 GMT
> The veterinarians served the Labrador retrievers last because they
> were black.
>
> The police officers were disrespectful to our clients because they are
> Hispanic.

The tenses seem correctly chosen to me in both sentences.  The
difference has to do with point of view.

There were some Labs at the vets' office.  They were black.  They
probably still are black, but we're not talking about them in the
present because we were only concerned with them in the moment.

The Gomezes are your clients now, so you're still concerned with them
now.  They are Hispanic.  The officers may have been disrespectful to a
bunch of other people you don't know about who were also Hispanic.

¬R
J X - 06 Jan 2010 02:24 GMT
> Are the below sentences correct?  Is there variance or is there a hard
> and fast rule?  Where can I point others to educate them, e.g., an
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> The police officers were disrespectful to our clients because they are
> Hispanic.

As a civil rights attorney and card-carrying member of the ACLU, I
find the speculation on my racism amusing.  Seems to me, however, that
publicly alluding to someone as a likely racist shouldn't be done
lightly, not if you view racism as a serious evil.  One should have a
bit more certainty than is required to say, oh I don't know, "I think
I detect a hint of a Boston accent."

Regardless, does anyone know of an online writing manual or other
authoritative resource that addresses this issue?  I've seen it
discussed before, but I'll be damned if I can remember where.
mm - 06 Jan 2010 07:37 GMT
>> Are the below sentences correct?  Is there variance or is there a hard
>> and fast rule?  Where can I point others to educate them, e.g., an
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>publicly alluding to someone as a likely racist shouldn't be done
>lightly, not if you view racism as a serious evil.  One should have a

If people here knew your name or where you lived or who you are, I'd
agree with you, but analysing posters on Usenet is more or less a game
like analysing the personalities of cartoon characters.

To the extent that it's not game, you could also be pleased that
people are so sensitive to racism, that they are alert to even small
signs of it, and afaicould tell, they all disliked it.

And are there veterinarians who treat black dogs last?  That line
seemed to be either a lonely attempt at humor, or very strange.

>bit more certainty than is required to say, oh I don't know, "I think
>I detect a hint of a Boston accent."
>
>Regardless, does anyone know of an online writing manual or other
>authoritative resource that addresses this issue?  I've seen it
>discussed before, but I'll be damned if I can remember where.

Not me.  Like I say, it's been a problem for me, too.
Signature

Posters should say where they live, and for which area
they are asking questions. I was born and then lived in
Western Pa.   10 years
Indianapolis   7 years
Chicago          6 years
Brooklyn, NY 12 years
Baltimore       26 years

Eric Walker - 06 Jan 2010 03:01 GMT
> Are the below sentences correct?  Is there variance or is there a hard
> and fast rule?  Where can I point others to educate them, e.g., an
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> The police officers were disrespectful to our clients because they are
> Hispanic.

The rule in question is called "sequence of tenses".  Eminent grammarian
George O. Curme described it as "the stupidest rule in English."  It
holds that: "When the principal proposition has a past indicative, a past-
tense form must usually follow."  The notable exception to that "usually"
is "if it is desired to represent something as habitual, customary,
characteristic, or as universally true."

So:

 "He _wanted_ to do it before his father *arrived*. [ordinary assertion]

But:

 "He _didn't_ seem to know that nettles *sting*."  [universal truth]

Also: "the old sequence is not infrequently disregarded to emphasize the
relation of the act or state in question to the present or the future."  
In such cases, we usually use the present perfect:

 "He _remarked_ that traditionally honesty *has been* the best policy."

And: "the present tense is often used after a past indicative to
represent a state or activity as still continuing":

  I _learned_ this morning that the men *are* still at work on the
  bridge.

That seems to be what is in play in the second sample sentence above.  
But I reckon one could as well write it--

 The police officers were disrespectful to our clients because they were
 Hispanic.

--without actual error.  The essence seems, to me, to lie in the
importance (not the mere actuality) of the state or condition continuing
through the present.

 
Signature

Cordially,
Eric Walker, Owlcroft House
http://owlcroft.com/english/

 
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