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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2010Usage of "at all" in positive context
Is the following paragraph, in particular the usage of "at all" in the last sentence, correct English? "My friend uses to leave his computer switched on day and night. .... When he was visiting me, he expressed his surprise that I had switched off the PC at all before leaving the room". The reason why I am using "at all" here is that - being German - I have remembered that "at all" is used in the sense of our "überhaupt", and in German, the sentence would work well ("Er war überrascht, daß ich den PC *überhaupt* ausgeschaltet hatte"), but I'm well aware that such literal translations often don't work. The sentence should express that my friend not only would have expected me to be "online" more often, but that he would have thought that the computer, even if I decided to not using it so much as he does, still would stay switched on permanently. Ronald Otto Valentin schrieb: > Is the following paragraph, in particular the usage of "at all" in the > last sentence, correct English? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > his surprise that I had switched off the PC at all before leaving the > room". That does sound like a translation done too literally. überhaupt nicht = not at all but for "überhaupt" the way you are using it, I'd opt for "actually" (tatsächlich) or maybe even "completely" (ganz, vollständig). so: he expressed his surprise that I had actually/completely switched off the PC... etc. If you wanted to stress "completely", which would fit your purpose, you might also add it at the end of the sentence, to show how absurd an idea it is to switch off a PC during the day: he expressed his surprise that I had switched off the PC completely... etc. Luca, methinks  Signature"Paying taxes is like going to the zoo. Admission is 20 bucks. You can't walk in and say 'Here's 18.50. I don't like zebras.'" - Jon Stewart > If you wanted to stress "completely", which would fit your purpose, you > might also add it at the end of the sentence, to show how absurd an idea > it is to switch off a PC during the day: > > he expressed his surprise that I had switched off the PC completely... etc. Thanks a lot for the clarification! Very helpful, indeed! Ronald >Ronald Otto Valentin schrieb: >> Is the following paragraph, in particular the usage of "at all" in the [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > >he expressed his surprise that I had switched off the PC completely... etc. "Ever", "at any time" "at all times" and "always" are often suitable alternatives for "at all". "Did he ever go there?" = "Did he go there at all?". ["Did he never go there?" "No, not at all" (= "No, never").] "I don't switch it off at all" = "I don't switch it off, ever" = "I never switch it off ". SignatureIan Ian Jackson schrieb: > "Ever", "at any time" "at all times" and "always" are often suitable > alternatives for "at all". > "Did he ever go there?" = "Did he go there at all?". > ["Did he never go there?" "No, not at all" (= "No, never").] > "I don't switch it off at all" = "I don't switch it off, ever" = "I > never switch it off ". Yes, but in Ronald's case, he was going for a different, positive notion, not the usual context of a negation or a question. In German, the word just happens to be the same because it has a very broad range of meanings, going from "in general" to "ever" to "entirely" or even "by the way". Luca Signature"Paying taxes is like going to the zoo. Admission is 20 bucks. You can't walk in and say 'Here's 18.50. I don't like zebras.'" - Jon Stewart And one more thing: Ronald Otto Valentin schrieb: > Is the following paragraph, in particular the usage of "at all" in the > last sentence, correct English? > > "My friend uses to leave his computer "uses to" in present tense is odd, if not even ungrammatical. In past tense, "he used to" it's fine and appropriate, but in present tense, you should go for something like "usually leaves..." Luca Signature"Paying taxes is like going to the zoo. Admission is 20 bucks. You can't walk in and say 'Here's 18.50. I don't like zebras.'" - Jon Stewart > Is the following paragraph, in particular the usage of "at all" in the > last sentence, correct English? > "My friend uses to leave his computer switched on day and night. .... > When he was visiting me, he expressed > his surprise that I had switched off the PC at all before leaving the > room". It's grammatically correct but not at all necessary. I used to work with someone who would say things like 'Such and such doesn't work at all, at all'. It always amused me and then one day he came out with 'It doesn't work at all, at all - at all, at all'. After the first time he said 'at all, at all' he paused and looked upwards as though in thought before following up with the remainder. It was very bizarre. >> Is the following paragraph, in particular the usage of "at all" in >> the last sentence, correct English? [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > upwards as though in thought before following up with the remainder. It > was very bizarre. You used to work with an Irish stereotype? The old joke goes that in Dublin a yellow line on the road means no parking at all and a double yellow means no parking at all at all. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford >> I used to work with someone who would say things like 'Such and such >> doesn't work at all, at all'. It always amused me and then one day he >> came out with 'It doesn't work at all, at all - at all, at all'. After the >> first time he said 'at all, at all' he paused and looked >> upwards as though in thought before following up with the remainder. It >> was very bizarre. > You used to work with an Irish stereotype? > The old joke goes that in Dublin a yellow line on the road means no parking > at all and a double yellow means no parking at all at all. Heheh. The fellow in question was English and seemed to have constructed a new meaning for his reduplication that was known only to him. >>> Is the following paragraph, in particular the usage of "at all" in >>> the last sentence, correct English? [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >The old joke goes that in Dublin a yellow line on the road means no parking >at all and a double yellow means no parking at all at all. Ah, to be sure, you're surely right - to be sure, to be sure. SignatureIan >>>> Is the following paragraph, in particular the usage of "at all" in >>>> the last sentence, correct English? [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Ah, to be sure, you're surely right - to be sure, to be sure. Why do you wear 2 condoms? SignatureRay UK >>> You used to work with an Irish stereotype? >>> The old joke goes that in Dublin a yellow line on the road means no [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Why do you wear 2 condoms? Ah, to be sure to be sure! (Boom BOOM!!) SignatureIan >>>> Is the following paragraph, in particular the usage of "at all" in >>>> the last sentence, correct English? [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Ah, to be sure, you're surely right - to be sure, to be sure. And yeh'll have a cup of tea. You will you will you will. You will you will you will you will you will you will. Ah go on. Go on go on go on. Go on go on go on go on go on go on. http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5jAy7VCMLqUrQJ4p6WalxAPRf_0Qw http://tinyurl.com/yks7sb7 SignatureJohn "Feck. Girls." Dean Oxford Is the following paragraph, in particular the usage of "at all" in the last sentence, correct English? "My friend uses to leave his computer switched on day and night. .... When he was visiting me, he expressed his surprise that I had switched off the PC at all before leaving the room". The reason why I am using "at all" here is that - being German - I have remembered that "at all" is used in the sense of our "überhaupt", and in German, the sentence would work well ("Er war überrascht, daß ich den PC *überhaupt* ausgeschaltet hatte"), but I'm well aware that such literal translations often don't work. You germans should go back to cremating jews. "Ronald Otto Valentin" <ro.naldfi.scher@gmail.com> wrote > Is the following paragraph, in particular the usage of "at all" in the > last sentence, correct English? > "My friend uses to leave his computer switched on day and night. .... > When he was visiting me, he expressed > his surprise that I had switched off the PC at all before leaving the > room". As a native speaker of English who's been using the language professionally for over thirty years I can think of many situations where "at all" could be used in a "positive" context. In fact I'm a bit puzzled that it's an issue at all. SignatureBob http://www.kanyak.com >"Ronald Otto Valentin" <ro.naldfi.scher@gmail.com> wrote > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >where "at all" could be used in a "positive" context. In fact I'm a >bit puzzled that it's an issue at all. Would that "issue" really be a "problem"? SignatureIan >>"Ronald Otto Valentin" <ro.naldfi.scher@gmail.com> wrote <...> >>As a native speaker of English who's been using the language >>professionally for over thirty years I can think of many situations >>where "at all" could be used in a "positive" context. In fact I'm a >>bit puzzled that it's an issue at all. >> > Would that "issue" really be a "problem"? No. I reckon that's a perfect use of 'issue': a point in question; a subject of debate. P. > >>As a native speaker of English who's been using the language > >>professionally for over thirty years I can think of many situations > >>where "at all" could be used in a "positive" context. In fact I'm a > >>bit puzzled that it's an issue at all. > > Would that "issue" really be a "problem"? > No. I reckon that's a perfect use of 'issue': a point in question; a > subject of debate. http://instantrimshot.com/ SignatureBob http://www.kanyak.com On Jan 11, 7:14 am, Opinicus <gez...@spamcop.net.which.is.not.invalid> wrote: > "Ronald Otto Valentin" <ro.naldfi.sc...@gmail.com> wrote > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > -- > Bobhttp://www.kanyak.com It all depends on what one means by a "negative context". In the sentence cited: "My friend uses to leave his computer switched on day and night. .... " -- first of all, 'uses to leave' is ungrammatical. The idiom is 'used to', always in the past. It never occurs in the present. -- "When he was visiting me, he expressed his surprise that I had switched off the PC at all before leaving the room". "surprised" is the word that provides a negative context. Consider I'm surprised you found anything to wear. *I'm not surprised you found anything to wear. Negating the negative presupposition of 'surprised' produces an ungrammatical sentence with NPI 'any'. Both are OK with 'something', of course. Or consider the NPIs "any more", or "take long": I doubt/*think he comes here any more. I doubt/*think it'll take long. (btw, NPI means Negative Polarity Item, and and asterisk marks ungrammatical sentences, or choices that produce ungrammatical sentences) In the sentences above, the negative "doubt" is OK, but the non-negative "think" produces garbage. But "surprised" works like "doubt", not like "think": I'm surprised he comes here any more. I'll be surprised if it takes long. NPIs are advanced grammar, like calculus is advanced math; something a little more complex than what one was taught in fourth grade, but not necessarily nonsense nonetheless. For more on negation and NPIs, see http://www.umich.edu/~jlawler/CELS-Negation.pdf -John Lawler http://www.umich.edu/~jlawler Getting an education is a bit like a communicable sexual disease. It makes you unsuitable for a lot of jobs, and then you have the urge to pass it on. -- Terry Pratchett > "When he was visiting me, he expressed his surprise > that I had switched off the PC at all before leaving the room". > > "surprised" is the word that provides a negative context. This is interesting. I had, somewhat simple-mindedly, assumed that negative context always is indicated by the word "no" or "not". Thank you for clarifying this. > Consider > I'm surprised you found anything to wear. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > produces an ungrammatical sentence with NPI 'any'. > Both are OK with 'something', of course. This is an interesting example, because I had, without hesitation, also used the (ungrammatical) sentence (which you marked with *). > Or consider the NPIs "any more", or "take long": > > I doubt/*think he comes here any more. > I doubt/*think it'll take long. Does it mean that I can not say "I think it'll take long"??? This is also something I use all the time (probably also by "literal" translation from German, i.e. "Ich denke, das wird lang dauern"). How would you express your opinion, that it will take long? Do I have say "It will likely take long", or "In my opinion, it will take long", or "I guess it will take long"? > For more on negation and NPIs, see > http://www.umich.edu/~jlawler/CELS-Negation.pdf Thanks for the pointer. Having some mathematical background, the article looks really interesting to me. As it is evident by now, my knowledge in the correct usage of English, in particular with respect to Grammar, is pretty poor. I wonder if you (or someone else reading this) could recommend me a good book - or also something on the web - which I could use to learn these topics by myself? My exposure to English language so far consists esentially of around 2 years of beginner's course (evening class), plus a lot of reading (mostly about computer science, but also some novels), which means I can understand English acceptably well, but as long as people understand what I'm saying, I have no idea whether my spoken English is correct or not. Ronald On Jan 11, 3:01 pm, "Colonel Edmund J. Burke" <portfood2...@yahoo.com> wrote: > Is the following paragraph, in particular the usage of "at all" in the > last sentence, correct English? [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > You germans should go back to cremating jews. Why do you talk about Germans? Well, you have to know that the word man has a jewish background. Samuel, the prophet wrote about the mn of Dvd who fought against King Sl. Well, in Hebrew literature no vocals are written. My, German language has more than 300.000 jewish words. Well Amigo, tu sei uno poverone. You speak German as well as English. I know this fact. |
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