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Discussion Groups / English Usage / April 2010For crying out loud
I assume there is no doubt that "criminy" is a way of avoiding saying "Christ".** What about "For crying out loud"? Is that the same thing?** **These are English usage questions. Someone off-topic maybe is the reason. I have always thought it is out of respect for Jesus that people avoid using his name, etc. lightly. Am I right?  SignaturePosters should say where they live, and for which area they are asking questions. I was born and then lived in Western Pa. 10 years Indianapolis 7 years Chicago 6 years Brooklyn, NY 12 years Baltimore 26 years >I assume there is no doubt that "criminy" is a way of avoiding saying >"Christ".** [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >reason. I have always thought it is out of respect for Jesus that >people avoid using his name, etc. lightly. Am I right? John Ciardi sez: for crying out loud! Exclamation of vexation. [A minced oath. A late-XIX Am. altered form of for Christ's sake! or Chrissake! As if the speaker had started so say `for Christ..." when he thought better of speaking the oath and shifted to the meaningless "...ing out loud!" Gee! Geez! and Gee whiz! are similarly bitten off and altered forms of Jesus.] >> I assume there is no doubt that "criminy" is a way of avoiding saying >> "Christ".** [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > "...ing out loud!" Gee! Geez! and Gee whiz! are similarly bitten > off and altered forms of Jesus.] Totally fascinating! I had no idea some of these exclamations were aborted mentionings of god. Especially 'criminy' and "For crying out loud". One could guess, I guess, about 'gee' and relatives, even though such prudishness smacks of almost Taliban-ness, and seems preposterous from a natural, agnostic point of view. SignatureYou'd be crazy to e-mail me with the crazy. But leave the div alone. -- Whoever bans a book, shall be banished. Whoever burns a book, shall burn. >>> I assume there is no doubt that "criminy" is a way of avoiding saying >>> "Christ".** [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > such prudishness smacks of almost Taliban-ness, and seems preposterous > from a natural, agnostic point of view. I knew "criminy" was a probably corruption of "Christ", but "for crying out loud" had never occurred to me as being in the same boat. SignatureLong-time resident of Adelaide, South Australia, which may or may not influence my opinions. >I knew "criminy" was a probably corruption of "Christ", but "for crying >out loud" had never occurred to me as being in the same boat. "Criminy" I've never heard of, but I do say "for crying in a bucket". SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk Steve Hayes filted: >>I knew "criminy" was a probably corruption of "Christ", but "for crying >>out loud" had never occurred to me as being in the same boat. > >"Criminy" I've never heard of, but I do say "for crying in a bucket". My grandmother used to exclaim "for cryin' out softly in the rain"...I can't be sure it wasn't a song lyric at one time....r Signature"Oy! A cat made of lead cannot fly." - Mark Brader declaims a basic scientific principle > Steve Hayes filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > My grandmother used to exclaim "for cryin' out softly in the rain"...I can't be > sure it wasn't a song lyric at one time....r Now you've done it. My head is filled with the Everly Brothers singing "Dragon in the dust". SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. >> I knew "criminy" was a probably corruption of "Christ", but "for >> crying out loud" had never occurred to me as being in the same >> boat. > > "Criminy" I've never heard of, but I do say "for crying in a > bucket". In mid-1940s South Los Angeles my colorful neighbor said "Crime-a-nettles!" or Crim-a-netley!" That's the place and time I was punished for shouting "G-O-D dammit!" I suppose I must have thought the "bad" word was the deity name and wouldn't be held accountable if it were spelled out. SignatureFrank ess >>> I knew "criminy" was a probably corruption of "Christ", but "for >>> crying out loud" had never occurred to me as being in the same [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > In mid-1940s South Los Angeles my colorful neighbor said > "Crime-a-nettles!" or Crim-a-netley!" [...] Comedian George Gobel used to say "crime-in-It'ly" (or something that sounded like that) back in the early 1950s. [...] And my mother-in-law used the phrase "Cheese and rice and all his apostles." SignatureMaria Conlon Quote from George Gobel: "If it weren't for electricity we'd all be watching television by candlelight." Had he died more recently than 1991, he might have said "If it werent for electricy we'd be reading AUE by candlelight. >Quote from George Gobel: "If it weren't for electricity we'd all be >watching television by candlelight." Exactly two weeks ago (to the minute) I *was* watching television by candlelight. There was a brownout, a voltage drop in our electricity supply. The voltage was not enough to get more than a useless dim glow out of some light bulbs. The energy-saving bulbs did not come on at all. So I needed to light a few candles to see what I was doing. However, one television worked sufficiently well to show a programme that I had recorded previously on a USB flashdrive and was able to play on a media player that also was able to function on the reduced supply voltage. http://reviews.cnet.co.uk/accessories/0,39100116,49303882,00.htm SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.english.usage) Reading from news:alt.english.usage, "Maria Conlon" <conlonmaria@sbcglobal.net> posted: > And my mother-in-law used the phrase "Cheese and rice and all his > apostles." I like "Big Daddy, Junior and the Spook" as a comical substitution for "Father, Son and Holy Ghost". Damaeus > Reading from news:alt.english.usage, > "Maria Conlon" <conlonmaria@sbcglobal.net> posted: >> And my mother-in-law used the phrase "Cheese and rice and all his >> apostles." > I like "Big Daddy, Junior and the Spook" as a comical substitution for > "Father, Son and Holy Ghost". Not The Big Bobber, Ritchie Valens, and Buddy? or Neal Cassady, Jack Kerouac, and Allen Ginsberg? SignatureI know you won't believe it's true I only went with her cuz she looked like you You know, Rick, I have many a friend in Casablanca, but somehow, just because you despise me, you are the only one I trust. Reading from news:alt.english.usage, Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> posted: > > Reading from news:alt.english.usage, > > "Maria Conlon" <conlonmaria@sbcglobal.net> posted: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > or Neal Cassady, Jack Kerouac, and Allen Ginsberg? I don't see the relationships of those people to the Trinity of the Big Three. Damaeus > Reading from news:alt.english.usage, > Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> posted: >> > Reading from news:alt.english.usage, >> > "Maria Conlon" <conlonmaria@sbcglobal.net> posted: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> >> or Neal Cassady, Jack Kerouac, and Allen Ginsberg? > I don't see the relationships of those people to the Trinity of the Big > Three. And the three men I admired most The Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost They caught the last train for the coast The day the music died SignatureI WILL NOT SELL MIRACLE CURES Bart chalkboard Ep. 9F16 SILLY STRING IS NOT A NASAL SPRAY Bart chalkboard Ep. 5F12 >> "Maria Conlon" posted: >>> And my mother-in-law used the phrase "Cheese and rice and all his >>> apostles." [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Not The Big Bobber, Ritchie Valens, and Buddy? Big Bopper > or Neal Cassady, Jack Kerouac, and Allen Ginsberg? SignatureSkitt Seen it all, done it all. Can't remember most of it. >>> I knew "criminy" was a probably corruption of "Christ", but "for >>> crying out loud" had never occurred to me as being in the same [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > dammit!" I suppose I must have thought the "bad" word was the deity > name and wouldn't be held accountable if it were spelled out. A US schoolmate of mine used to get away with "GOD ... bless America!" Reading from news:alt.english.usage, "Frank ess" <frank@fshe2fs.com> posted: > >> I knew "criminy" was a probably corruption of "Christ", but "for > >> crying out loud" had never occurred to me as being in the same [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > In mid-1940s South Los Angeles my colorful neighbor said > "Crime-a-nettles!" or Crim-a-netley!" I've heard older women say "Hell's Bells". > That's the place and time I was punished for shouting "G-O-D dammit!" > I suppose I must have thought the "bad" word was the deity name and > wouldn't be held accountable if it were spelled out. I always thought that God wouldn't be so petty as to care if someone said "God dammit", and it was just some human quirk arrived at through the assumption that God must be an a.shole if he has the balls to rule the universe. But as I see it, if God rules the universe, he was born that way and can't help it. Since he cannot be removed from that position, he certainly wouldn't be offended, nor threatened, by someone's use of "god dammit (damnit)", or any other version. Damaeus > Reading from news:alt.english.usage, > "Frank ess" <frank@fshe2fs.com> posted: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > I've heard older women say "Hell's Bells". Now maybe. I doubt it would have been heard in the '40s. "In olden days a bit of stocking was looked on as something shocking, now heaven knows, anything goes." --Jeff SignatureLove consists of overestimating the differences between one woman and another. --George Bernard Shaw Jeffrey Turner wrote, in <SpqdnS5iI-1iVQTWnZ2dnUVZ_j2dnZ2d@posted.localnet> on Thu, 11 Mar 2010 23:54:20 -0500: > > I've heard older women say "Hell's Bells". > > Now maybe. I doubt it would have been heard in the '40s. Whatever about older women my father certainly said it in those days, often extended to "Hell's Bells and buckets of flaming blood". > "In olden days a bit of stocking was looked on as something shocking, > now heaven knows, anything goes." > > --Jeff SignatureNick Spalding BrE/IrE > > I've heard older women say "Hell's Bells". > > Now maybe. I doubt it would have been heard in the '40s. Oh, but it was. There was a sort of modern, tough-cookie, wise-cracking personality that engaged in light swearing, like "hell's bells" and "damn." They could be college girls or Rosie the Riveter or the office Gal Friday. >"In olden days a bit of stocking was looked on as something shocking, > now heaven knows, anything goes." Which is from a 1934 show. Some results from Google Books for 1940-1950: Mine own executioner - Page 122 Nigel Balchin - Fiction - 1948 ... Well, hell's bells ! " said Barbara irritably. ... The river road- Page 206 Frances Parkinson Keyes - 1945 - ... and said hell's bells, she had no idea it was so late Liguorian, Volume 33? - Page 197 Redemptorists - 1945 "Hell's bells, Jimmy, stop strumming on the same string. Aren't you glad to see me? " ... she added ... Huddleston house: a period piece - Page 132 Denis George Mackail - Fiction - 1945 - 255 pages "Oh, hell's bells!" she said, now dashing into the kitchenette. Americans all over - Page 193 Biography & Autobiography - 1940 She loved to say, "Hell's bells." She liked to make fun of herself and of her ... I heard them sing - Page 210 Ferdinand Reyher - 1946 "Hell's bells," she said. "It's getting so a girl can't find a place to be alone and let her hair down." ------ SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux >> > I've heard older women say "Hell's Bells". >> [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] >"Hell's bells," she said. "It's getting so a girl can't find a place to >be alone and let her hair down." Maybe the origin is "The Bells of Hell"? <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bells_Of_Hell_Go_Ting-a-ling-a-ling> SignatureIan >>>> I assume there is no doubt that "criminy" is a way of avoiding saying >>>> "Christ".** [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > I knew "criminy" was a probably corruption of "Christ", but "for crying > out loud" had never occurred to me as being in the same boat. Did Walt Disney understand the meaning of "Jiminy Cricket"? SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. > Did Walt Disney understand the meaning of "Jiminy Cricket"? That one seems to have had an interesting history. The OED cites "By Jiminy Cricket" to 1848, but implies that the first word came from "Gemini". But for that sense of "Gemini" glossed as "A mild form of oath or exclamation" and cited to 1664, they say Perhaps a distinct word. Cf. Ger. _gemine_, _jemine_, which Hildebrand (in _Grimm's D. Wb._) regards as a corruption of _Jesu domine_; also Du. _jemenie_, _jemie_. So it looks as though it's possible that "Jiminy" may have started out as a simple phonetic reduction of an actual Latin oath, been folk- etymologized into referring to a pagan reference, and then further reanalyzed as being a minced oath for "Jesus Christ", at which point a second element ("Christmas" or "Cricket[s]") was added to fit. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |If you think health care is 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |expensive now, wait until you see Palo Alto, CA 94304 |what it costs when it's free. | P.J. O'Rourke kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > > Did Walt Disney understand the meaning of "Jiminy Cricket"? > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ What about "by Jove"? >> > Did Walt Disney understand the meaning of "Jiminy Cricket"? >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > What about "by Jove"? That one appears to have always been a reference to Jove (i.e., Jupiter, which etymologically came from "Jovis-pater") rather than a minced oath for a Christian deity. I'd assume based on such use in pre-Christian Roman texts. The OED cites "Jove" to ca. 1374 and "By Jove" to 1575. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |People think it must be fun to be a 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |super genius, but they don't Palo Alto, CA 94304 |realize how hard it is to put up |with all the idiots in the world. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | Calvin (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ Evan Kirshenbaum filted: >>> > Did Walt Disney understand the meaning of "Jiminy Cricket"? >>> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >pre-Christian Roman texts. The OED cites "Jove" to ca. 1374 and "By >Jove" to 1575. When did "By Jingo" come along?...obviously before 1920: http://turtleservices.com/OhByJingoOhByGee.htm ....r Signature"Oy! A cat made of lead cannot fly." - Mark Brader declaims a basic scientific principle >Evan Kirshenbaum filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >>>> which point a second element ("Christmas" or "Cricket[s]") was >>>> added to fit. Quoting John Ciardi: jimminy/ Jimminy/jiminy/Jiminy Mild exclam. by Jimminy/by Jiminy (rarely, with lower-case j) One of the mildest of minced oaths. [XVII. Corruption of Gemini. The sometimes offered suggestion that the term arises from Je(su) (Do)mine, has in its support the fact that most minced oaths are a form of Jesus Christ (and geez, they really are); but this is an ingenuity after the fact Jimminy Christmas/Jimminy Crickets Also minced oaths. The first is obviously based on Jesus Christ. The second is a twice. minced form. [So very mild have these mincings become that even the saintly bland of Walt Disney Productions features an animated cartoon character called Jimminy Cricket. (But Jesus Christ, don't tell them what they are doing!)] >>> What about "by Jove"? >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > http://turtleservices.com/OhByJingoOhByGee.htm Again quoting John Ciardi: Jingo: by Jingo! Mild expletive. By God! [Prob. the only English term derived from the Basque tongue, perh. transmitted by Basque sailors, perhaps by Basque mercenaries used by Edward I (reigned 1272-1307) in his wars against the Welsh, but the first OED attestation is not till 1694, when Motteux used it to translate Fr. par Dieu in Rabelais. Common in XVII as a conjurer's formula, hey jingo! or hi jingo! or high jingo!] jingoism Also jingo (As in: another of his jingo pronouncements.) Chauvinism. Redder-whiter-and-bluer-than-thou patriotism. [An unusual second evolution < 1878 music hall ditty by G. W. Hunt, addressing the threatof war with Russia. "We don't want to fight, yet, by Jingo! if we do/We've got the ships, we've got the men and got the money, too! "] >Again quoting John Ciardi: Who is this John Ciardi? :) >Jingo: by Jingo! Mild expletive. By God! [Prob. the only English >term derived from the Basque tongue, perh. transmitted by Basque [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >fight, yet, by Jingo! if we do/We've got the ships, we've got the men >and got the money, too! "] Maybe it would be easier to make a list of exclamations that aren't minced oaths, that aren't euphemisms for profanity or scatology, and are just polite, secular interjections. Can anyone think of any? Let me try. Tell me if I don't meet my own standard. Wow! But that only works for wonderment. Huh? But that only works for questoining or mild surprise. Nuts. Some General said that, although I'm sure he wasn't the first. I don't know the origin. Fooey. That probably doesn't meet my standard. Nonsense. That only works for nonsense. I want a general almost all-purpose exclamation. SignaturePosters should say where they live, and for which area they are asking questions. I was born and then lived in Western Pa. 10 years Indianapolis 7 years Chicago 6 years Brooklyn, NY 12 years Baltimore 26 years [...] > I want a general almost all-purpose exclamation. Here you go: "f.ck!" or "sh.t!" Signature~~~ Reinhold {Rey} Aman ~~~ >[...] >> I want a general almost all-purpose exclamation. >> >Here you go: "f.ck!" or "sh.t!" "Balls!", "damn!". SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>[...] >>> I want a general almost all-purpose exclamation. >>> >>Here you go: "f.ck!" or "sh.t!" > > "Balls!", "damn!". "f.ck", "sh.t", and "damn" work in both positive and negative situations, but "balls" seems to be strictly negative. (Then again, I haven't heard it much.) SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Of course, over the first 10^-10 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |seconds and 10^-30 cubic Palo Alto, CA 94304 |centimeters it averages out to |zero, but when you look in kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |detail.... (650)857-7572 | Philip Morrison http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >>> [...] >>>> I want a general almost all-purpose exclamation. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > situations, but "balls" seems to be strictly negative. (Then again, I > haven't heard it much.) "The dog's balls" (or bollocks) is very positive. SignatureRay UK >>>> [...] >>>>> I want a general almost all-purpose exclamation. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > "The dog's balls" (or bollocks) is very positive. Samuel L. Jackson learned the difference in "The 51st State": So, let me get this straight. "Bollocks" is bad, whereas "the dogs bollocks" is good, huh? SignatureJames >>>> [...] >>>>> I want a general almost all-purpose exclamation. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > "The dog's balls" (or bollocks) is very positive. I agree, but in cases like this the word is a noun rather than an imprecation. I offer an example of road rage as an illustration: during the sixties, whilst living in Cambridge, Mass., I was rather slow driving away when the traffic lights turned green, and responded to the impatient hoot from behind with a gesture of contempt. At the next traffic lights (it was rush hour), the driver from behind knocked on the window of my car and asked, aggressively, "You gotta lot of balls, buddy?" A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do. I locked the car door and spent a few nervous minutes waiting for the lights to turn green again. SignatureLes (BrE) >>>> [...] >>>>> I want a general almost all-purpose exclamation. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > "The dog's balls" (or bollocks) is very positive. I've never heard it as "the dog's balls", only "the dog's bollocks" aka "the dog's" and sometimes "the mutt's nuts". SignatureJohn Dean Oxford >>>>> [...] >>>>>> I want a general almost all-purpose exclamation. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >I've never heard it as "the dog's balls", only "the dog's bollocks" aka "the >dog's" and sometimes "the mutt's nuts". What about the (polite) "bees' knees"? SignatureIan >>>>>> [...] >>>>>>> I want a general almost all-purpose exclamation. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >What about the (polite) "bees' knees"? According to OED: b. bee's knee: (a) a type of something small or insignificant; (b) pl. (slang, orig. U.S.), the acme of excellence; ‘the cat's whiskers’; 1797 ... [sense (a)] 1923 H. C. WITWER Fighting Blood iii. 101 You're the bee's knees, for a fact! 1958 Times 15 Aug. 9/4 Lord Montgomery..holds that to label anything the ‘cat's whiskers’ is to confer on it the highest honour, and the ‘bee's knees’ is not far behind it as a compliment. There is no indication of the derivation of the phrase. The bee's knees are mentioned in this inspection of the cat's pyjamas: http://www.word-detective.com/0807A.html#catspajamas This discussion has: http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/138325 by Jimma on March 11th, 2008 This phrase comes from the early 1800's. The English taylor, E.B. Katz made silk pajamas for royalty and the wealthy. They were said to be the finest pajamas made anywhere in the land and they soon came to be known as Kat'z pajamas. As Wikipedia would say "[citation needed]". SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.english.usage) >>>>>>> [...] >>>>>>>> I want a general almost all-purpose exclamation. [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > > As Wikipedia would say "[citation needed]". I think I've mentioned here before that it seems to me likely that "the bee's knees" started as a jocular mispronunciation of "the business", which is used in exactly the same way. SignatureMike. >I think I've mentioned here before that it seems to me likely that "the >bee's knees" started as a jocular mispronunciation of "the business", >which is used in exactly the same way. Ah, Pidgin English. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.english.usage) >> I think I've mentioned here before that it seems to me likely that "the >> bee's knees" started as a jocular mispronunciation of "the business", >> which is used in exactly the same way. > > Ah, Pidgin English. Dang, you got there first! SignatureJames >>>>>>>> [...] >>>>>>>>> I want a general almost all-purpose exclamation. [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] >bee's knees" started as a jocular mispronunciation of "the business", >which is used in exactly the same way. That indeed sounds plausible. But where did "the business" come from? SignatureIan [...] >>I think I've mentioned here before that it seems to me likely that "the >>bee's knees" started as a jocular mispronunciation of "the business", >>which is used in exactly the same way. >> > That indeed sounds plausible. But where did "the business" come from? Bees are renowned for being busy. <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2skW43HNpE> SignatureLes (BrE) Leslie Danks filted: >Ian Jackson wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > ><http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2skW43HNpE> Certainly, but I think the question was how "the business" came to mean approval.... Guy Fieri, host of "Diners, Drive-Ins and Dives" on the Food Network, has popularized a number of expressions for saying that the food he's tasting is very good: "off the hook"/"off the chain" "downtown" "money" "legit" I'm sure Mr Fieri would be the first to admit that he didn't originate any of these, but he's brought them all to a new generation of foodies....r Signature"Oy! A cat made of lead cannot fly." - Mark Brader declaims a basic scientific principle >>>>>>>>> [...] >>>>>>>>>> I want a general almost all-purpose exclamation. [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] >> > That indeed sounds plausible. But where did "the business" come from? With less confidence, I wonder if it's somehow connected with "job", as used in "just the job". SignatureMike. >>>>>>>>>> [...] >>>>>>>>>>> I want a general almost all-purpose exclamation. [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > With less confidence, I wonder if it's somehow connected with "job", as > used in "just the job". Proper job! SignatureOnline waterways route planner | http://canalplan.eu Plan trips, see photos, check facilities | http://canalplan.org.uk >>>>>>>> [...] >>>>>>>>> I want a general almost all-purpose exclamation. [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > bee's knees" started as a jocular mispronunciation of "the business", > which is used in exactly the same way. Perhaps "the bee's knees" is a pidgin form of the word "business"? SignatureJames >>>> John Dean writes >>>>>> Evan Kirshenbaum typed: [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > >Perhaps "the bee's knees" is a pidgin form of the word "business"? That's "bee's wax." > What about the (polite) "bees' knees"? Not at all related. The Bee's Knees was one of a number of slang phrases popular in the late 1910's and 1920's and all referred to things that didn't exist. Some others are The Cat's Pajamas The Clam's Garters The Eel's Ankles They all meant basically the same thing, something excellent, worthy, or special. The Hen's Teeth was also popular, but it meant something rare. SignatureNo one heard the cry that came back from the dead skull, because there was no mouth to utter it and not even a mind to guide it, but it screamed out into the night: CLAY OF MY CLAY, THOU SHALT NOT KILL! THOU SHALT NOT DIE! --Feet of Clay >> What about the (polite) "bees' knees"? > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >The Hen's Teeth was also popular, but it meant something rare. Ah, like "rockinghouse sh.t"? SignatureIan >> What about the (polite) "bees' knees"? > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > The Hen's Teeth was also popular, but it meant something rare. Interesting, thanks. I had not heard any of these. There's a related phrase in Eastern Europe, that hasn't made it accross into English. It is "bird's milk", and means something rare and hard to obtain. For instance, if one were to say that a grocery sells bird's milk, it would mean that the store carries every product that one can imagine, and then some. Similarly, for a feast, if they served bird's milk, it would mean extreme number and variety of exotic dishes. Additionally, some E.E. countries (I know about Russia and Poland) call chocolate covered meringue candies "bird's milk". SignatureYou'd be crazy to e-mail me with the crazy. But leave the div alone. -- Whoever bans a book, shall be banished. Whoever burns a book, shall burn. >>>>> [...] >>>>>> I want a general almost all-purpose exclamation. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > I've never heard it as "the dog's balls", only "the dog's bollocks" > aka "the dog's" and sometimes "the mutt's nuts". Quite right too! I think I may already have mentioned how proud I am at having my bollocks in the OED: dog's bollocks c1986 in P. BREWIS et al. Gambler (cassette tape sleeve notes) They are of the opinion that, when it comes to Italian opera, Pavarotti is the dog's bollocks. I remain, P.BREWIS et al >>>>>> [...] >>>>>>> I want a general almost all-purpose exclamation. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > P.BREWIS et al Can I be your bodyguard and you can be my long lost pal? SignatureJohn Dean Oxford "John Dean" <john-dean@fraglineone.net> wrote in news:801n34Fv0vU1 @mid.individual.net: ... >>> I've never heard it as "the dog's balls", only "the dog's bollocks" >>> aka "the dog's" and sometimes "the mutt's nuts". [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Can I be your bodyguard and you can be my long lost pal? :-) A man walks down the street Or maybe it's two men Maybe it's not a street at all Maybe I should start this song again P Pete filted: >"John Dean" <john-dean@fraglineone.net> wrote in news:801n34Fv0vU1 >@mid.individual.net: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Maybe it's not a street at all >Maybe I should start this song again The lock upon my garden gate's a snail, that's what it is....r Signature"Oy! A cat made of lead cannot fly." - Mark Brader declaims a basic scientific principle > "John Dean" <john-dean@fraglineone.net> wrote in news:801n34Fv0vU1 > @mid.individual.net: [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Maybe it's not a street at all > Maybe I should start this song again A man walks into a bar CLANG!!! It was an iron bar SignatureJohn Dean Oxford > > "John Dean" <john-d...@fraglineone.net> wrote in news:801n34Fv0vU1 > > @mid.individual.net: [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > CLANG!!! > It was an iron bar In my college days, that went, "A man walks into a bar. Bounces right off." In a Brooklyn accent, if possible. -- Jerry Friedman Jerry Friedman filted: >> A man walks into a bar >> CLANG!!! >> It was an iron bar > >In my college days, that went, "A man walks into a bar. Bounces right >off." In a Brooklyn accent, if possible. The one I heard was "two guys walk into a bar; you'd think the second one would have ducked"....r Signature"Oy! A cat made of lead cannot fly." - Mark Brader declaims a basic scientific principle > Jerry Friedman filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > The one I heard was "two guys walk into a bar; you'd think the > second one would have ducked"....r I had a friend who was magic: he could be walking down the street nice as you please, and suddenly turn into a bar. >> Jerry Friedman filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> The one I heard was "two guys walk into a bar; you'd think the >> second one would have ducked"....r > I had a friend who was magic: he could be walking down the street nice > as you please, and suddenly turn into a bar. I'm a social drinker. Someone says they'll have a beer and I say, "So shall I!" SignatureHamburgers. The cornerstone of any nutritious breakfast. Lewis filted: >>> Jerry Friedman filted: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >I'm a social drinker. Someone says they'll have a beer and I say, "So >shall I!" I'm told that yo-yo dieting is both ineffective and dangerous...for those not familiar with the term, it means eating food that looks like a yo-yo.... Oreo cookies, for example....r Signature"Oy! A cat made of lead cannot fly." - Mark Brader declaims a basic scientific principle [...] > I'm told that yo-yo dieting is both ineffective and dangerous...for > those not familiar with the term, it means eating food that looks > like a yo-yo.... > > Oreo cookies, for example....r That reminds me: been meaning to ask for ages. Do adults actually _like_ Oreos? Or are they, like British "jammie dodgers" and "custard creams", loved, despite a dullness verging on unpleasantness, for Proustian reasons? SignatureMike. >[...] >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >loved, despite a dullness verging on unpleasantness, for Proustian >reasons? Oh, yes. My wife sometimes makes "Grasshopper Pie"...vanilla ice cream with crème de menthe and crème de cocoa mixed in and on a pie crust made from crushed Oreo cookies. Whatever is left in the package of Oreos after the crust requirements are met I'll go through in one sitting. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >> [...] >>> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > of Oreos after the crust requirements are met I'll go through in one > sitting. Heart attack at 11 !!!! SignatureThe Canadian Curmudgeon (in Calgary) Fix the biosphere - eliminate people > [...] >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> >> Oreo cookies, for example....r > That reminds me: been meaning to ask for ages. Do adults actually _like_ > Oreos? Or are they, like British "jammie dodgers" and "custard creams", > loved, despite a dullness verging on unpleasantness, for Proustian > reasons? Never underestimate Proustian reasons. I still like them with milk. I don't like them without, at all. Then again, I was never really fond of them without milk anyway. Now, the Golden Oreos I can eat by the truckload. SignatureSi Hoc Legere Scis Nimium Eruditionis Habes >> [...] >>> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Now, the Golden Oreos I can eat by the truckload. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrox And here I thought Hydrox was a knock-off of Oreo cookies. Shows what marketing (or the lack of it) can do. It's been a while since I actually looked for Oreos in the stores, so finding out there is a "Golden Oreo" is news to me. And I see that the Oreo crème filling is no longer made with lard. > It's been a while since I actually looked for Oreos in the stores, so > finding out there is a "Golden Oreo" is news to me. > > And I see that the Oreo crème filling is no longer made with lard. If I remember my teenage-self's time in the US, it was thought to be Crisco and sugar. But I never really understood the problem which my American friends had with this idea. Butter icing is butter and sugar, and we put that in home-made cakes. "Lard" could mean any sort of fat, although in the UK it really refers to rendered animal fat, which might taste a little strong for a sweet biscuit filling. Good for frying chips though. SignatureDavid >> It's been a while since I actually looked for Oreos in the stores, so >> finding out there is a "Golden Oreo" is news to me. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > taste a little strong for a sweet biscuit filling. Good for frying > chips though. "Lard" ought to be specifically rendered pork fat. Anything else is dripping. SignatureRob Bannister Robert Bannister filted: >>> And I see that the Oreo crème filling is no longer made with lard. >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >"Lard" ought to be specifically rendered pork fat. Anything else is >dripping. Unless it's from chicken, in which case it's schmaltz....r Signature"Oy! A cat made of lead cannot fly." - Mark Brader declaims a basic scientific principle > Robert Bannister filted: >>>> And I see that the Oreo crème filling is no longer made with lard. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Unless it's from chicken, in which case it's schmaltz....r Schmalz, as far as I know, is the fat from any animal. Since German mainly eat pork and veal, they are the most likely candidates, but I know you get Schmalz from chicken and geese, etc. too. You appear to be suggesting that all Americans would choose a Yiddish word for chicken dripping, but not for other kinds - OK, I can see that Yiddish people would not often discuss pork fat, but there are other meats. SignatureRob Bannister >> Robert Bannister filted: >>> "Lard" ought to be specifically rendered pork fat. Anything else [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > You appear to be suggesting that all Americans would choose a Yiddish > word for chicken dripping, but not for other kinds Not all Americans, but those of us who have it in our vocabulary. The OED defines it specifically as "melted chicken fat". MWCD11, interestingly, doesn't give a literal sense at all. > - OK, I can see that Yiddish people would not often discuss pork > fat, but there are other meats. I don't think I ever heard "schmaltz" used to mean anything other than poultry fat and rarely anything other than chicken fat. But I see that Weinreich's dictionary defines it as "(animal) fat (as food)", and I see books that gloss it as "rendered chicken or beef fat". SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |The reason that we don't have 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |"bear-proof" garbage cans in the Palo Alto, CA 94304 |park is that there is a significant |overlap in intelligence between the kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |smartest bears and the dumbest (650)857-7572 |humans. | Yosemite Park Ranger http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >>> Robert Bannister filted: >>>> "Lard" ought to be specifically rendered pork fat. Anything else >>>> is dripping. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > that Weinreich's dictionary defines it as "(animal) fat (as food)", > and I see books that gloss it as "rendered chicken or beef fat". From http://dict.leo.org/forum/viewWrongentry.php?idThread=384994&idForum=6&lp=ende&l ang=de Schmaltz or schmalz is rendered pig, chicken, or goose fat used for frying or as a spread on bread in German cuisine. [...] שמאַלץ (shmalts) is the Yiddish word for chicken fat,[2] from Middle High German smalz for animal fat. It has been brought to American English by Yiddish-speaking Jews who used this word mostly to refer to the kosher poultry fat, which gives food a rich flavor. A related expression "falling into the schmaltz pot" refers to the concept of having something good happen to you, often by sheer luck (e.g., being born into a good family). In American English, schmaltz (adj. schmaltzy) has also an informal meaning of excessively sentimental or florid music or art or maudlin sentimentality. Its earliest usage in this sense dates to about 1950. SignatureSkitt (AmE) >> I don't think I ever heard "schmaltz" used to mean anything other >> than poultry fat and rarely anything other than chicken fat. But I [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > American English by Yiddish-speaking Jews who used this word mostly > to refer to the kosher poultry fat, which gives food a rich flavor. That's why I was surprised to see a Yiddish-English dictionary defining it as "animal fat" with no notion that it was restricted to poultry. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Whatever it is that the government 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |does, sensible Americans would prefer Palo Alto, CA 94304 |that the government do it to somebody |else. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | P.J. O'Rourke (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >>> I don't think I ever heard "schmaltz" used to mean anything other >>> than poultry fat and rarely anything other than chicken fat. But I [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > defining it as "animal fat" with no notion that it was restricted to > poultry. It is then, as I suspected, a meaning restricted to America, although I'd like to hear from any British or European Yiddish speakers. SignatureRob Bannister >> That's why I was surprised to see a Yiddish-English dictionary >> defining it ["schmaltz"] as "animal fat" with no notion that it was >> restricted to poultry. > > It is then, as I suspected, a meaning restricted to America, although > I'd like to hear from any British or European Yiddish speakers. Prior to it coming up here (I think) not long before Christmas I knew only the metaphorical meaning (and that mainly as an adjective). English (NW) born and bred. SignatureOnline waterways route planner | http://canalplan.eu Plan trips, see photos, check facilities | http://canalplan.org.uk >>> That's why I was surprised to see a Yiddish-English dictionary >>> defining it ["schmaltz"] as "animal fat" with no notion that it was [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Prior to it coming up here (I think) not long before Christmas I knew >only the metaphorical meaning (and that mainly as an adjective). Ditto. If asked for its origin I would have said that it was German via America. In my experience Yiddish has very little recognition by the general public in the UK. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.english.usage) >>>> That's why I was surprised to see a Yiddish-English dictionary >>>> defining it ["schmaltz"] as "animal fat" with no notion that it was [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > America. In my experience Yiddish has very little recognition by the > general public in the UK. There are a small number of Yiddish words in British English, but perhaps mainly used in East London. The most common is "nosh", which I think was never popular in the USA. "Gelt" is/was also in common use. Having said that, I agree with you about German - to the extent that I often think some Americans must have German ancestry when, in fact, they are simply using Yiddish words. SignatureRob Bannister >>>>> That's why I was surprised to see a Yiddish-English dictionary >>>>> defining it ["schmaltz"] as "animal fat" with no notion that it was [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >perhaps mainly used in East London. The most common is "nosh", which I >think was never popular in the USA. "Gelt" is/was also in common use. I can't speak for all of the USA, but "nosh" was commonly used and almost universally understood in Chicago. Orlando, not so much. Although, there's a deli of sorts here that has a sign out front identifying itself as "The Noshery". >Having said that, I agree with you about German - to the extent that I >often think some Americans must have German ancestry when, in fact, they >are simply using Yiddish words. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>>>>> That's why I was surprised to see a Yiddish-English dictionary >>>>>> defining it ["schmaltz"] as "animal fat" with no notion that it was [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >Although, there's a deli of sorts here that has a sign out front >identifying itself as "The Noshery". I think that "nosh" would be understood throughout the UK. This dictionary of slang in the UK does not mention any regionality: http://www.peevish.co.uk/slang/n.htm nosh Noun. Food. [Orig. German/Yiddish. 1900s] Verb. 1. To eat. 2. To fellate. See 'nosh-off'. noshery Noun. An eating establishment, cafe, restaurant or snack bar. From 'nosh' (noun). A quick google finds at least two places called "The Noshery" in the UK. This one is a cafe in Hounslow, London: http://www.allinlondon.co.uk/directory/1150/79013.php This list includes that one and several places called just "Nosh". They are in the Cafes, Snack Shops & Tea Rooms category. http://www.londonnet.co.uk/listings/fooddrink/cafes,snackshopstearooms/N/pg7 Google also finds uses of the generic term "noshery" meaning simply a place to eat. >>Having said that, I agree with you about German - to the extent that I >>often think some Americans must have German ancestry when, in fact, they >>are simply using Yiddish words. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.english.usage) >>>>> That's why I was surprised to see a Yiddish-English dictionary >>>>> defining it ["schmaltz"] as "animal fat" with no notion that it was [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > perhaps mainly used in East London. The most common is "nosh", which I > think was never popular in the USA. I think that "nosh" would have been understood (and perhaps even used) by my non-Jewish friends both in Chicago and here in California. > "Gelt" is/was also in common use. "Gelt", for us, was only the chocolate coins you got at Chanukah. > Having said that, I agree with you about German - to the extent that I > often think some Americans must have German ancestry when, in fact, > they are simply using Yiddish words. The OED mentions Yiddish in the etymology of 204 words, some (e.g., "already") as calques in some senses, some not direct ancestors. The ones that appear to be direct: ach, bagel, bashert, blintze, borcht belt/circuit, boychick, bris, bubbe, bupkis, caser, cholent, chutzpah, cocum, daven, dreck, dreidel, farfel, finnip, frum, futz, gefüllte fish, glitzy, golem, gunsel, guntz, heimisch, Hymie, kibbutznik, kibitz(er), kibosh, kishke, kittel, klezmer, klutz, knaidel, knish, koppel, kreplach, kugel, kvell, kvetch, landsman, latke, lekach, link (as an adjective meaning "not pious"), Litvak, lokshen, lox, luftmensch, macher, Magen David, mamaliga, mameloshen, mamzer, manath, mandlen, mashgiach, matjes herring, matzo, maven, mazel, matzeltov, mazuma, Megillah, meister, mensch, meshuga, meshugas, meshuggener, meshumad, mieskeit, mikva, miltz, minyan, mishmash, mishpocha, Mesnagid, mocker, mocky, mohel, mokker, moloker, moskeneer, motza, naches, narrishkeit, nebbish, -nik, noodge, nosh, nosher, noshery, nu, nodnik, ooftish, oy, oy vey, pareve, pastrami, payess, Pesach, phooey, pirog, pisha paysha, pisher, pletzel, plotz, pogrom, Polack (only in the sense of "a Jew from Poland"), porge, potch, punim, putz, Rav, reb, rebbe, rebbetzin, ryebuck, schaltete, schlemiel, schlep, schlepper, schlimazel, schlock, schlong, schlub, schlump, schmaltz, schmatte, schmeck, schmeer, schmoll, schmooze, schmuck, schutter, schmutz, schnook, schnorrer, schnozz, schnozzle, schvarte(r), schwag, Sedra, Shabbos, shadchan, shash, shegetz, sheitel, shemozzle, shicker, shidduch, shiksa, shoful, shonda, shtetl, shtibl, shtik, shtook, shtoom, shtreimel, shtup, shul, steever, stuss, teiglach, tochus, trombenik, tsatske/tchotchke,, tsores, tummler, tzimmes, vigorish, yahrzeit, yarmulke, Yekke, yente, yichus, Yiddishkeit, yom tov, zaftig, zayde SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |We never met anyone who believed in 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |fortune cookies. That's astounding. Palo Alto, CA 94304 |Belief in the precognitive powers |of an Asian pastry is really no kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |wackier than belief in ESP, (650)857-7572 |subluxation, or astrology, but you |just don't hear anyone preaching http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ |Scientific Cookie-ism. | Penn and Teller > >>>>> That's why I was surprised to see a Yiddish-English dictionary > >>>>> defining it ["schmaltz"] as "animal fat" with no notion that it was [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > I think that "nosh" would have been understood (and perhaps even used) > by my non-Jewish friends both in Chicago and here in California. Most of mine would, too. > > "Gelt" is/was also in common use. > > "Gelt", for us, was only the chocolate coins you got at Chanukah. "Gelt" was the same for us (I was raised Catholic, in Maine), except we got them at Christmas. They were the standard Chanukah gelt, though, with menorahs on the back. I have no idea how many of my other non-Jewish friends received them--my dad grew up on Staten Island with a Jewish best friend, so he might have picked up the tradition there. >>>>>> That's why I was surprised to see a Yiddish-English dictionary >>>>>> defining it ["schmaltz"] as "animal fat" with no notion that it was [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > yahrzeit, yarmulke, Yekke, yente, yichus, Yiddishkeit, yom tov, > zaftig, zayde I have read a surprising number of those in American novels. I doubt, however, whether many of these words, apart from bagel, pogrom and maybe dreck, are familiar to non-Jews in other English-speaking countries. I must admit I thought "pogrom" was a Russian word. SignatureRob Bannister >>>>>>> That's why I was surprised to see a Yiddish-English dictionary >>>>>>> defining it ["schmaltz"] as "animal fat" with no notion that it was [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] > >I must admit I thought "pogrom" was a Russian word. Bagel, chutzpah, mazeltov, shul, schlep, schmuck are known here and are in common use. There's also schlong, which I believe is almost synonymous with schmuck. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > Bagel, chutzpah, mazeltov, shul, schlep, schmuck are known here and are in > common use. There's also schlong, which I believe is almost synonymous > with > schmuck. You're joking, right? >> Bagel, chutzpah, mazeltov, shul, schlep, schmuck are known here and are in >> common use. There's also schlong, which I believe is almost synonymous >> with >> schmuck. > >You're joking, right? He's just dicking around. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >> Bagel, chutzpah, mazeltov, shul, schlep, schmuck are known here and >> are in common use. There's also schlong, which I believe is almost >> synonymous with schmuck. > > You're joking, right? It's synonymous in the literal sense, but not as a description of a person, which is the most common sense of "schmuck" these days. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Voting in the House of 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |Representatives is done by means of a Palo Alto, CA 94304 |little plastic card with a magnetic |strip on the back--like a VISA card, kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |but with no, that is, absolutely (650)857-7572 |*no*, spending limit. | P.J. O'Rourke http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >>> Bagel, chutzpah, mazeltov, shul, schlep, schmuck are known here and >>> are in common use. There's also schlong, which I believe is almost [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >It's synonymous in the literal sense, but not as a description of a >person, which is the most common sense of "schmuck" these days. Yup, that's what I meant by "almost". SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >> Bagel, chutzpah, mazeltov, shul, schlep, schmuck are known here >> and are in common use. There's also schlong, which I believe is >> almost synonymous with schmuck. > > You're joking, right? No. Steve Hayes is just a stupid schmuck. Signature~~~ Reinhold {Rey} Aman ~~~ >> Bagel, chutzpah, mazeltov, shul, schlep, schmuck are known here and >> are in [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > You're joking, right? Whether or not he's joking, I thought that they had the same meaning, in both the literal and metaphorical senses. "He's a schlong/schmuck" translates into English as "He's a dick". (Although "dickhead" would be a more common choice of word.) SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. > Bagel, chutzpah, mazeltov, shul, schlep, schmuck are known here and are in > common use. There's also schlong, which I believe is almost synonymous with > schmuck. OK, I'll admit chutzpah, but I haven't heard the others used among non-Jews. "Schlong", I would have thought, means "penis". SignatureRob Bannister >> Bagel, chutzpah, mazeltov, shul, schlep, schmuck are known here and are in >> common use. There's also schlong, which I believe is almost synonymous with >> schmuck. > >OK, I'll admit chutzpah, but I haven't heard the others used among >non-Jews. "Schlong", I would have thought, means "penis". I forgot to mention kugel. If you've been around them long enough, doll, you'll pick up most of the others. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >>> Bagel, chutzpah, mazeltov, shul, schlep, schmuck are known here and are in >>> common use. There's also schlong, which I believe is almost synonymous with >>> schmuck. >> OK, I'll admit chutzpah, but I haven't heard the others used among >> non-Jews. "Schlong", I would have thought, means "penis". I would admit several more of those. Bagel is such a common word that I could ask for one at almost any sandwich shop and expect to be understood. "Mazeltov" is familiar from the rhyme "Mazel tov, it's Asimov". Shul, schlep, and schmuk are distinctively Yiddish words, but I've seen them often enough in books. (Well, perhaps not "shul". I think I learnt that one in AUE.) I was going to say that "schmuck" and "schlong" are often seen in e-mail, but then I remembered that the jokemeister of my favourite mailing list is half-Jewish. > I forgot to mention kugel. If you've been around them long enough, doll, > you'll pick up most of the others. I've never heard of a kugel, but I look forward to being enlightened. SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. >> Bagel, chutzpah, mazeltov, shul, schlep, schmuck are known here and are in >> common use. There's also schlong, which I believe is almost synonymous with >> schmuck. > OK, I'll admit chutzpah, but I haven't heard the others used among > non-Jews. "Schlong", I would have thought, means "penis". So does schmuck, iirc. But schmuck also means a worthless or stupid person with a little bit of jackass thrown in. I wish I had my Dad's copy of The Joy of Yiddish Signature"I'm just like every modern woman trying to have it all. A loving husband, a family. I only wish I had more time to seek out the dark forces and join their hellish crusade." Lewis filted: >>> Bagel, chutzpah, mazeltov, shul, schlep, schmuck are known here and are in >>> common use. There's also schlong, which I believe is almost synonymous with [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >I wish I had my Dad's copy of The Joy of Yiddish What's stopping you from going out and picking up a copy of your own?...r Signature"Oy! A cat made of lead cannot fly." - Mark Brader declaims a basic scientific principle > Lewis filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> >>I wish I had my Dad's copy of The Joy of Yiddish > What's stopping you from going out and picking up a copy of your own?...r Oh, I have a copy. I just don't have HIS copy. With his notes, annotations, and even corrections/clarifications. SignatureWhen and where does this \"real world\" occur?! > Lewis filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > What's stopping you from going out and picking up a copy of your > own?...r Yes, but his Dad's copy had a $500 bill as a bookmark. SignatureRay UK >>> Bagel, chutzpah, mazeltov, shul, schlep, schmuck are known here and >>> are in [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > So does schmuck, iirc. But schmuck also means a worthless or stupid > person with a little bit of jackass thrown in. and I thought it meant "decoration" or "bling", but I was pronouncing the U differently. SignatureRob Bannister Robert wrote on Thu, 25 Mar 2010 09:17:17 +0800: >>>> Bagel, chutzpah, mazeltov, shul, schlep, schmuck are known here and >>>> are in common use. There's also schlong, which I [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> So does schmuck, iirc. But schmuck also means a worthless or stupid >> person with a little bit of jackass thrown in. > and I thought it meant "decoration" or "bling", but I was > pronouncing the U differently. If you can get a copy of Leo Rosten's "The Joy of Yinglish", look up "schmuck". He has a marvellous story illustrating usages. I was tempted to quote it but it's probably copyright. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not >> ach, bagel, bashert, blintze, borcht belt/circuit, boychick, bris, >> bubbe, bupkis, caser, cholent, chutzpah, cocum, daven, dreck, [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >> yahrzeit, yarmulke, Yekke, yente, yichus, Yiddishkeit, yom tov, >> zaftig, zayde > I have read a surprising number of those in American novels. I doubt, > however, whether many of these words, apart from bagel, pogrom and maybe > dreck, are familiar to non-Jews in other English-speaking countries. I don't know about other countries, but an awful lot of those are pretty common to me. Lox, latke, chutzpah, gefillte fish, mikva, mensch, motza, oy, oy vey, pastrami, plotz, putz, schlep, schlong, schlock, schmaltz, shtook, yente... Oh, klutz, kibosh, kibitz, ... probably others. Maybe I've seen Fiddler on the Roof once too often? > I must admit I thought "pogrom" was a Russian word. My too. SignatureSlab: Jus' say 'AarrghaarrghpleeassennononoUGH'. --Feet of Clay >> I must admit I thought "pogrom" was a Russian word. > > My too. Me, too. The OED gives both, but cites an earlier inflected form that couldn't have been directly from Russian: [< Yiddish _pogrom_ and its etymon Russian _pogrom_, lit. 'destruction' (late 18th cent. in general sense) < _pogrom_-, stem of _pogromit'_ (perfective) to destroy. Compare the following quot., which apparently shows an earlier isolated attestation of the Yiddish plural form in an English context: 1882 _Times_ 17 Mar. 3/6 That the 'Pogromen' (riots against the Jews) must be stopped.] Yiddish, of course, got it from Russian. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Just sit right back 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 | and you'll hear a tale, Palo Alto, CA 94304 | a tale of the Stanford red |That started when a little boy kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | named Leland did drop dead (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >> Robert <robban1@bigpond.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Yiddish, of course, got it from Russian. Yes. Just a tiny anabasis: the basic form of the verb is _gromit'_, (imperfective) and the word derives from that. OED has this part of the etymology wrong. The word _pogrom_, as well as the perfective form _pogromit'_ are derivative, and formed by adding prefixes. (Cf. the related _razgromit'_ and _razgrom_.) This is in accord with the general rule in Bulgarian (and Russian is similar) that the stems and basic forms of the verbs are imperfective, while perfective forms and nouns are formed by prefixation or suffixation. SignatureYou'd be crazy to e-mail me with the crazy. But leave the div alone. -- Whoever bans a book, shall be banished. Whoever burns a book, shall burn. > Yes. Just a tiny anabasis: the basic form of the verb is _gromit'_, >(imperfective) and the word derives from that. OED has this part of the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >forms of the verbs are imperfective, while perfective forms and nouns >are formed by prefixation or suffixation. I would have thought that that came from Wensleydale. What about Wallace? SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >>> I must admit I thought "pogrom" was a Russian word. >> My too. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > following quot., which apparently shows an earlier isolated > attestation of the Yiddish plural form in an English context: Ah, well that settles it. I have long believed that Russian perfective verbs cannot be translated into any language that I know. I've just gone to look up "po" and "gromit'", and realised that my ex-wife has both of my Russian dictionaries. What possible use could she get from them? SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. Peter Moylan filted: >I've just gone to look up "po" and "gromit'", and realised that my >ex-wife has both of my Russian dictionaries. What possible use could she >get from them? Uneven table-legs don't balance *themselves*, you know....r Signature"Oy! A cat made of lead cannot fly." - Mark Brader declaims a basic scientific principle >I've just gone to look up "po" and "gromit'", and realised that my >ex-wife has both of my Russian dictionaries. What possible use could she >get from them? She has the great pleasure of knowing that she has deprived you of them. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.english.usage) >>> ach, bagel, bashert, blintze, borcht belt/circuit, boychick, bris, >>> bubbe, bupkis, caser, cholent, chutzpah, cocum, daven, dreck, [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > My too. It is originally a Russian word that was borrowed into Yiddish. It's from the Russian verb "pogromit'" (to destroy). SignatureJames > Robert wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > >Maybe I've seen Fiddler on the Roof once too often? Evan's list is extensive, but not complete. "Gonif" or "ganef" is conspicuously missing. Also, "fin"--meaning a five-dollar bill--which is a shortening of "finnif" isn't listed. Then there are "spiel," "gelt" and doubtlessly more which have found there ways into the language. Have any of my offerings found usage outside North America? >> Robert wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] >and doubtlessly more which have found there ways into the language. Have >any of my offerings found usage outside North America? "spiel" is used outside North America. "geld" is not in Evan's list because the word "Yiddish" does not appear in its OED entry. Its OED etymology is: [a. Ger., Du. geld money: see GELD n.] SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.english.usage) Peter Duncanson wrote: >>> Robert wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > > [a. Ger., Du. geld money: see GELD n.] The word is "gelt" not "geld;" it appears as Yiddish in the AHD. > The word is "gelt" not "geld;" it appears as Yiddish in the AHD. German pronunciation of Geld is "gelt" SignatureErilar, biblioholic medievalist http://www.mosaictelecom.com/~erilarlo >> The word is "gelt" not "geld;" it appears as Yiddish in the AHD. > >German pronunciation of Geld is "gelt" Ish vays, but this an English word we are talking about with English pronunciations. >Peter Duncanson wrote: >>>> Robert wrote: [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > >The word is "gelt" not "geld;" it appears as Yiddish in the AHD. I mistyped. The OED etymology that I quoted is for "gelt". SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.english.usage) > Evan's list is extensive, but not complete. Evan's list is only incomplete if he accidentally missed copying one. It purported to be a list of words for which the OED credited Yiddish in the etymology and came from a search for just that. > "Gonif" or "ganef" is conspicuously missing. ... from the OED as near as I can determine. > Also, "fin"--meaning a five-dollar bill--which is a shortening of > "finnif" isn't listed. Okay, you've got me there. They simply call it a synonym for "finnip", which is in the list. > Then there are "spiel," They credit that to German. > "gelt" They credit that to German and Dutch. It's cited to before 1529 and noted "in early use often with reference to the pay of a (German) army. > and doubtlessly more which have found there ways into the > language. Have any of my offerings found usage outside North > America? SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Those who would give up essential 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |Liberty, to purchase a little Palo Alto, CA 94304 |temporary Safety, deserve neither |Liberty nor Safety. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | Benjamin Franklin (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >> Evan's list is extensive, but not complete. > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >They credit that to German. The AHD credits both Yiddish and German. >> "gelt" > >They credit that to German and Dutch. It's cited to before 1529 and >noted "in early use often with reference to the pay of a (German) >army. The AHD solely credits Yiddish. >>> "gelt" >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > The AHD solely credits Yiddish. In this case, if the OED is citing it to 1529 talking about the German army, I'd go with them. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |So when can we quit passing laws and 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |raising taxes? When can we say of Palo Alto, CA 94304 |our political system, "Stick a fork |in it, it's done?" kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | P.J. O'Rourke (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >>>> "gelt" >>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >In this case, if the OED is citing it to 1529 talking about the German >army, I'd go with them. That's your prerogative. As far as US usage goes, I tend to think the AHD has the goods. Many of these "German words" were introduced into AmE by Yiddish speakers in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. I strongly doubt if "gelt" would be as widely known had the immigrant Yiddish speakers another word for money. >That's your prerogative. As far as US usage goes, I tend to think the >AHD has the goods. Many of these "German words" were introduced into AmE >by Yiddish speakers in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. >I strongly doubt if "gelt" would be as widely known had the immigrant >Yiddish speakers another word for money. What about docent? Was that via Yiddish, or Pennsylvania Dutch? SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >> That's your prerogative. As far as US usage goes, I tend to think the >> AHD has the goods. Many of these "German words" were introduced into AmE [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Was that via Yiddish, or Pennsylvania Dutch? You're destroying all of my beliefs. I thought that that was a Latin word. SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. > >> That's your prerogative. As far as US usage goes, I tend to think the > >> AHD has the goods. Many of these "German words" were introduced into AmE [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > > You're destroying all of my beliefs. I thought that that was a Latin word. It has to be Latin! SignatureErilar, biblioholic medievalist http://www.mosaictelecom.com/~erilarlo [...] >>>> I strongly doubt if "gelt" would be as widely known had the >>>> immigrant Yiddish speakers another word for money. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > It has to be Latin! Of course it's of Latin origin. But it got into American English from German academic jargon: I don't think it's used in any other English-speaking country, presumably because, as far as I know, the function doesn't exist in quite the same way. SignatureMike. >[...] >>>>> I strongly doubt if "gelt" would be as widely known had the [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >English-speaking country, presumably because, as far as I know, the >function doesn't exist in quite the same way. In South Africa "dosent" is used in Afrikaans (stress on the second syllable) to mean roughly the equivalent of the BrE "don", as in "Oxford don". So I'm pretty sure it must have reached the USA from some Germanic language. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >>That's your prerogative. As far as US usage goes, I tend to think the >>AHD has the goods. Many of these "German words" were introduced into AmE [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >What about docent? Say what? >Was that via Yiddish, or Pennsylvania Dutch? I'm not too aware of Pennsylvania Dutch contributions other than some locally strange Germanic language structure that pops up now and then and words like "wisenheimer." The Pennsylvania Dutch are farmers and aren't found in dense population densities where their usage would have the influence to propagate further. My point is dates are very important here. If "gelt" came into usage after the Yiddish-speaking immigration and not the major German-speaking immigration, which was earlier, then I'd place its origins with Yiddish. Besides if it were German in origin the word would be spelled "geld." The spelling should have been preserved since there was no need to transliterate from Hebrew characters. "Robert Bannister" <robban1@bigpond.com> wrote > I must admit I thought "pogrom" was a Russian word. It is also a Yiddish word, but it was borrowed from the original Russian. >>>>>>> That's why I was surprised to see a Yiddish-English dictionary >>>>>>> defining it ["schmaltz"] as "animal fat" with no notion that it was [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] >> nosh, nosher, noshery, nu, nodnik, ooftish, oy, oy vey, pareve, >> pastrami, payess, Pesach, The OED says of "phooey": "Sometimes incorrectly said to be from Yiddish". >> pirog, pisha paysha, pisher, >> pletzel, plotz, pogrom, Polack (only in the sense of "a Jew from [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> schnorrer, schnozz, schnozzle, schvarte(r), schwag, Sedra, >> Shabbos, shadchan, shash, shegetz, sheitel, "shemozzle" is East End of London slang "perh. ad. Yiddish shlimazl misfortune, unlucky person". >> shicker, >> shidduch, shiksa, shoful, shonda, shtetl, shtibl, shtik, shtook, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >however, whether many of these words, apart from bagel, pogrom and maybe >dreck, are familiar to non-Jews in other English-speaking countries. I'd add these to the list of those that might be familiar to non-Jews in other English-speaking countries: chutzpah, kibosh, pastrami, I recognise a number of the words without being able to reliably define them. Others are a total mystery. I first met "schnozzle" as a nickname of Jimmy Durante: http://www.us.imdb.com/name/nm0002051/ "Kibbutznik" became familiar in the 1960s. I met "maven" more recently. I would not have guessed that "pastrami" had any Yiddish connection. It is apparently Turkish and Romanian in origin but "Pastrami was apparently first sold in the U.S. in a Jewish delicatessen". >I must admit I thought "pogrom" was a Russian word. You could be right. OED: pogrom, n. [< Yiddish pogrom and its etymon Russian pogrom, lit. ‘destruction’ (late 18th cent. in general sense) < pogrom-, stem of pogromit´ (perfective) to destroy. ...] SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.english.usage) On Mar 23, 7:58 am, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> wrote: > On Tue, 23 Mar 2010 09:39:49 +0800, Robert Bannister > [quoted text clipped - 85 lines] > I would not have guessed that "pastrami" had any Yiddish connection. It > is apparently Turkish and Romanian in origin but "Pastrami was Turkish pastırma < Turkish bastırma (ı dotless i, is similar to Slavic y but further back) "pressing, pressed" . in Azeri basdırma , Turkmen basturma (H. Eren) confirms the Turkic origin of the word, against a dissenting opinion. I wonder if a Balkan dialect of Turkish is at play for the change p- < b- > apparently first sold in the U.S. in a Jewish delicatessen". > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > - Show quoted text - >> I would not have guessed that "pastrami" had any Yiddish connection. It >> is apparently Turkish and Romanian in origin but "Pastrami was [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > dissenting opinion. I wonder if a Balkan dialect of Turkish is at play > for the change p- < b- You think? Interesting. Are Turkish Balkan dialects significantly different from the rest? I know for certain that some Turkish loanwords in Bulgarian don't have the same meaning in contemporary Turkish (e.g. "bokluk" means "garbage" in Bulgarian, but not, or not only, in contemporary Turkish). But I always thought that it was because of the natural evolution of Turkish, not because of some separate dialect. Could this be a similar case of temporal change? Oh, and the word is "pastyrma" in Bulgarian too. SignatureYou'd be crazy to e-mail me with the crazy. But leave the div alone. -- Whoever bans a book, shall be banished. Whoever burns a book, shall burn. > >> I would not have guessed that "pastrami" had any Yiddish connection. It > >> is apparently Turkish and Romanian in origin but "Pastrami was [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > You think? Interesting. Are Turkish Balkan dialects significantly well, they live as pockets in a non-Turkish world, though these communities were much bigger before the 20th cent. so it doesn't come as a surprise that they have differences, esp. in regard to phonology and loan vocabulary. but the p- in pastırma may be due to similar sounding words in Balkan languages. > different from the rest? I know for certain that some Turkish loanwords > in Bulgarian don't have the same meaning in contemporary Turkish (e.g. > "bokluk" means "garbage" in Bulgarian, but not, or not only, in that's probably because of a semantic shift in Bulgarian. bok means sh.t in Turkish. > contemporary Turkish). But I always thought that it was because of the > natural evolution of Turkish, not because of some separate dialect. > Could this be a similar case of temporal change? older forms and cogantes suggest b- initial for pastırma. > Oh, and the word is "pastyrma" in Bulgarian too. > > -- > You'd be crazy to e-mail me with the crazy. But leave the div alone. > -- > Whoever bans a book, shall be banished. Whoever burns a book, shall burn. >> I know for certain that some Turkish loanwords >> in Bulgarian don't have the same meaning in contemporary Turkish (e.g. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > that's probably because of a semantic shift in Bulgarian. bok means > sh.t in Turkish. Could be. But the person who informed me about this fact, thought that the semantic shift happened in Turkish, while in Bulgarian the loanword retained its original meaning, 'frozen' as it were in an alien environment. This exhibits parallels with many petrified phrases in Bulgarian, that retain their original forms and meanings, while originating from the same language, no less. SignatureYou'd be crazy to e-mail me with the crazy. But leave the div alone. -- Whoever bans a book, shall be banished. Whoever burns a book, shall burn. > >> I know for certain that some Turkish loanwords > >> in Bulgarian don't have the same meaning in contemporary Turkish (e.g. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Bulgarian, that retain their original forms and meanings, while > originating from the same language, no less. it's original meaning in Turkish is "excrement", although in a few phrases it could extend to "dirt, rubbish, something wortheless", this is the usage Bulgarian may have picked up, or made a shift on its own. although it meant "green mould on bread" (with the secondary meaning "metallic slag") in Old Uighur, it meant "excrement" in Oghuz Turkic (the group Turkish belongs to) since at least the 11th cent. when it is attested as such (for Oghuz Turkic) in Kashgari's dictionary. it is also attested as "excrement" or "dung" in Kipchak and Central Asian Turkic a while later. > > >> I know for certain that some Turkish loanwords > > >> in Bulgarian don't have the same meaning in contemporary Turkish (e.g. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > also attested as "excrement" or "dung" in Kipchak and Central Asian > Turkic a while later. incidentally, Kashgari represents it with a long vowel, but there does not seem to be the case in Turkmen (which preserves long vowels) and Turkish which retains traces of them (voicing of the following consonant in oblique cases). Starostin reconstructs Proto-Altaic: *mŏk`V "dirt" but it is impossible for Bulgarian to have picked up on this (it is with a rounding vowel harmonic suffix, which would indicate a borrowing from Turkish rather than Danube-Bulghar) >>> I would not have guessed that "pastrami" had any Yiddish connection. It >>> is apparently Turkish and Romanian in origin but "Pastrami was [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Could this be a similar case of temporal change? > Oh, and the word is "pastyrma" in Bulgarian too. A mad Macedonian friend of mine insists that "postrma" is a Macedonian verb meaning to preserve. He has other weird ideas too, but he's harmless. SignatureRob Bannister > On Mar 23, 7:58 am, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 96 lines] > > > apparently first sold in the U.S. in a Jewish delicatessen". the OED says it is from Romanian, via Yiddish. Romanian pastramă , from păstra "to preserve". perhaps there was a re-etymologization in Romanian. it would be very unlikely that a Romanian word ended up in Turkmen. H. Eren was partly educated in Hungary and a competent linguist, and frankly acknowledges loanwords in Turkish. but the Romanian form might explain the intial p- in Turkish. in other words, there might ave been cross-contamination. H. Eren rejects Modern Greek πάστωμα pásto:ma as the origin of the Turkish word. H. Eren mentions Hungarian pástormány as a loan from Turkish. H. Eren has an impressive bibliography including Vasmer's dictionary. > > >I must admit I thought "pogrom" was a Russian word. > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Peter Duncanson, UK > > (in alt.english.usage) > > On Mar 23, 7:58 am, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> > > wrote: . > > > I would not have guessed that "pastrami" had any Yiddish connection. It > > > is apparently Turkish and Romanian in origin but "Pastrami was [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > there might ave been cross-contamination. H. Eren rejects Modern Greek > πάστωμα pásto:ma as the origin of the Turkish word. H. Eren mentions meaning "salted meat or fish" > Hungarian pástormány as a loan from Turkish. H. Eren has an impressive > bibliography including Vasmer's dictionary. > > > On Mar 23, 7:58 am, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> > > > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Turkmen. H. Eren was partly educated in Hungary and a competent > > linguist, and frankly acknowledges loanwords in Turkish. but the Wikipedia, giving a scholarly reference, supports the Turkic origin: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pastrami#Etymology_and_origin << Both the dish and the word pastrami were brought to the United States in a wave of Jewish immigration from Bessarabia and Romania in the second half of the 19th century. The word, derived from the Yiddish: פּאַסטראָמע (pronounced pastróme), entered the Russian language as pastromá (пастрома) via the Romanian pastramă, and it is likely rooted in the Turkish pastırma and the Armenian word bastourma.[1] 1.^ Dicţionarul explicativ al limbii române, Entry for Pastramă which is: http://dexonline.ro/definitie/pastrama << PASTRÁMĂ păstrămuri f. 1) Produs alimentar preparat din carne bine condimentată și afumată sau uscată la soare. 2) Varietate de astfel de produs alimentar. ♢ A se face ~ a slăbi foarte tare. A ține pe cineva la ~ a ține pe cineva închis timp îndelungat. /<ngr. pastramás, turc. pastirma Sursa: NODEX | Trimisă de siveco, 21 Aug 2004 | Greșeală de tipar it's a loanword in Modern Greek and Armenian. > > Romanian form might explain the intial p- in Turkish. in other words, > > there might ave been cross-contamination. H. Eren rejects Modern Greek [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Hungarian pástormány as a loan from Turkish. H. Eren has an impressive > > bibliography including Vasmer's dictionary. > > > > On Mar 23, 7:58 am, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> > > > > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > pastromá (пастрома) via the Romanian pastramă, and it is likely rooted > in the Turkish pastırma and the Armenian word bastourma.[1] Early references in English used the spelling "pastrama". It is likely that the modified "pastrami" spelling was introduced to sound related to the Italian salami.[ > 1.^ Dicţionarul explicativ al limbii române, Entry for Pastramă > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > it's a loanword in Modern Greek and Armenian. >> The OED mentions Yiddish in the etymology of 204 words, some (e.g., >> "already") as calques in some senses, some not direct ancestors. The >> ones that appear to be direct: [long list snipped. You can find it in Evan's message.] > I have read a surprising number of those in American novels. I doubt, > however, whether many of these words, apart from bagel, pogrom and maybe > dreck, are familiar to non-Jews in other English-speaking countries. > > I must admit I thought "pogrom" was a Russian word. Some of these are words that I first encountered in AUE: bupkis, gefüllte fish (which I thought was spelt "gefilte fish"), lox (which I thought was spelt "lachs"), Shabbos (first encountered as part of "Shabbos gentile") zaftig (pleasantly fat? I no longer remember) The others that I, as an Australian, understand, are: ach (but I thought it was German) bagel, blintze (which I spell "blintz") borcht (which I spell "borshcht") bris, chutzpah, dreck, dreidel (I learnt this from a song) futz, glitzy, golem, gunsel (I thought this was AmE) Hymie, kibbutznik, kibitz(er), kibosh, klutz, kvetch, lox, maven, matzeltov, mishmash (but I would never have guessed that it was Yiddish), mohel, -nik (first encountered in a jokes mailing list), nosh, noshery (I thought that these two were BrE) oy vey, pastrami (I would have said that this one was Italian), phooey (and that this one was AmE), pogrom (like Rob, I thought it was Russian), Polack (for me, this means anyone from Poland) schmaltz, shemozzle, shul, yarmulke The ones that I recognise but whose meaning I would have to look up are: bubbe, knish, Litvak (I'm guessing that this means "Lithuanian"), kreplach (I thought this was a Martian word), meshuggener (something to do with the Katzenjammer Kids?), nebbish, rebbe, schlep, schlock, tsatske/tchotchke SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. >> The OED mentions Yiddish in the etymology of 204 words, some (e.g., >> "already") as calques in some senses, some not direct ancestors. The [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > countries. > I must admit I thought "pogrom" was a Russian word. Potch in Australia is a kind of low-grade opal, if that's the same word. I had no idea that was Yiddish. SignatureRegards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au > Potch in Australia is a kind of low-grade opal, if that's the same > word. I had no idea that was Yiddish. A "potch" is an open-handed blow--a slap or, most often, a spank, and "to potch" is the verb. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |In the beginning, there were no 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |reasons, there were only causes. Palo Alto, CA 94304 | Daniel Dennet kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >> Potch in Australia is a kind of low-grade opal, if that's the >> same word. I had no idea that was Yiddish. > > A "potch" is an open-handed blow--a slap or, most often, a spank, > and "to potch" is the verb. Leo-Rosten Yiddish / Real Yiddish / German ======================================================== potch ................ patsh .......... Patsch (noun) potch ................ patshn ......... patschen (verb) noshen ............... nashn .......... naschen (verb) plotz ................ platsn ......... platzen (verb) In Leo-Rosten Yiddish (ptui! feh!), the Yiddish <a> as in "father" is spelled <o>, so that English-speakers don't mispronounce the <a> as /E/ or /&/ as in "cat" /k&t/. Signature~~~ Reinhold {Rey} Aman ~~~ >>> Potch in Australia is a kind of low-grade opal, if that's the >>> same word. I had no idea that was Yiddish. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > spelled <o>, so that English-speakers don't mispronounce the <a> as /E/ > or /&/ as in "cat" /k&t/. That is really interesting. I never ever associated "nosh" with "naschen" even though I knew both words. The BrE "o" vowel is so different from "a" for us, it just never occurred to me. It shows how seriously different American and English can be in some instances. SignatureRob Bannister >> Leo-Rosten Yiddish / Real Yiddish / German >> ======================================================== [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > different from "a" for us, it just never occurred to me. It shows how > seriously different American and English can be in some instances. AOL. For Australians trying to learn AmE (I've been through this) one of the greatest difficulties lies in learning how to substitute "a" for "o". SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. Peter wrote on Tue, 30 Mar 2010 23:44:08 +1100: >>> Leo-Rosten Yiddish / Real Yiddish / German >>> ======================================================== [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > this) one of the greatest difficulties lies in learning how to > substitute "a" for "o". In defense of Leo Rosten, I would mention that his book is called "The Joy of Yinglish" and is a description of Yiddish words encountered more or less frequently in English. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > Peter wrote on Tue, 30 Mar 2010 23:44:08 +1100: > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Joy of Yinglish" and is a description of Yiddish words encountered more > or less frequently in English. Oy! It's "The Joys of Yinglish". SignatureJames James wrote on Tue, 30 Mar 2010 15:20:48 +0200: >> Peter wrote on Tue, 30 Mar 2010 23:44:08 +1100: >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >> called "The Joy of Yinglish" and is a description of Yiddish >> words encountered more or less frequently in English. > Oy! > It's "The Joys of Yinglish". I posted that note before breakfast and I don't have a copy of Rosten's book visible from my desk. Joys, schmoys, it was the "Yinglish" part I was thinking about. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > James wrote on Tue, 30 Mar 2010 15:20:48 +0200: > [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > Rosten's book visible from my desk. Joys, schmoys, it was the > "Yinglish" part I was thinking about. In my Penguin edition of "THE JOYS OF YIDDISH" the OY is highlighted. It wouldn't have looked nearly as good if the word had been in the singular. SignatureJames >> James [Hogg] wrote... [...] >>>> In defense of Leo Rosten, I would mention that his book is called >>>> "The Joy of Yinglish" and is a description of Yiddish words [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > It wouldn't have looked nearly as good if the word had been in the > singular. I don't know whether _The Joys of Yinglish_ is a different book or just a new title of Rosten's _The Joys of Yiddish_ first published in 1968 (Pocket Book ed. in 1970; 534 pp.). My intense dislike for Rosten's amateurish transliteration/spelling of Yiddish words is well known by long-time AUEers. He is also responsible for spreading the idiotic etymology of Yinglish "schmuck/shmuck" (Yiddish _shmok_), which he claims is from German _Schmuck_. Nuff said. Signature~~~ Reinhold {Rey} Aman ~~~ > I don't know whether _The Joys of Yinglish_ is a different book or just > a new title of Rosten's _The Joys of Yiddish_ first published in 1968 > (Pocket Book ed. in 1970; 534 pp.). It's a different book, copyright 1988 according to Wikipedia. > My intense dislike for Rosten's amateurish transliteration/spelling > of Yiddish words is well known by long-time AUEers. He is also > responsible for spreading the idiotic etymology of Yinglish > "schmuck/shmuck" (Yiddish _shmok_), which he claims is from German > _Schmuck_. Nuff said. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Now and then an innocent man is sent 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |to the legislature. Palo Alto, CA 94304 | Kim Hubbard kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ Evan wrote on Tue, 30 Mar 2010 12:52:32 -0700: >> I don't know whether _The Joys of Yinglish_ is a different >> book or just a new title of Rosten's _The Joys of Yiddish_ >> first published in 1968 (Pocket Book ed. in 1970; 534 pp.). > It's a different book, copyright 1988 according to Wikipedia. >> My intense dislike for Rosten's amateurish >> transliteration/spelling of Yiddish words is well known by >> long-time AUEers. He is also responsible for spreading the >> idiotic etymology of Yinglish "schmuck/shmuck" (Yiddish >> _shmok_), which he claims is from German _Schmuck_. Nuff >> said. Yes, there is another book with "Yiddish" in the title but I don't have access to it. I had not noticed Aman's denunciation of Rosten previously but Rosten is certainly very funny in his stories to illustrate his points in "The Joys of Yinglish". However, I wonder if someone can enlighten me as to the numbers of current *Yiddish* speakers since, regrettably, the language appears to be surviving as "Yinglish" . The Yiddish newspapers and theater of New York seem to be dying. I do have one friend who is fluent in Yiddish but he is nearly 80 years old. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not >> Peter wrote on Tue, 30 Mar 2010 23:44:08 +1100: >> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > It's "The Joys of Yinglish". And anyway, as previously discussed, "nosh" is part of British English and not many people would be able to identify it as a Yiddish word. I would have guessed it was Romany. SignatureRob Bannister >> Potch in Australia is a kind of low-grade opal, if that's the same >> word. I had no idea that was Yiddish. > > A "potch" is an open-handed blow--a slap or, most often, a spank, and > "to potch" is the verb. A different word, then. The Australian Oxford says the opalline potch is Aust, 19c, of unknown origin. It doesn't list the Yiddish potch. SignatureRegards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au [Yiddish words in English] > The OED mentions Yiddish in the etymology of 204 words, some (e.g., > "already") as calques in some senses, some not direct ancestors. [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > vigorish, yahrzeit, yarmulke, Yekke, yente, yichus, Yiddishkeit, > yom tov, zaftig, zayde Interesting that some of them are naturalised, but others, while familiar, seem still clearly Yiddish. I don't think I would naturally use "punim". Maybe there has to have been an empty spot in English for the word to move into. OED seems to have left out "shvitz". Is that a Sheidlower alert? > [Yiddish words in English] >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> > OED seems to have left out "shvitz". Is that a Sheidlower alert? Seems to be. I don't see it either as "shvitz" or "schvitz". [Attn Jesse Sheidlower: OED missing word] SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Whatever it is that the government 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |does, sensible Americans would prefer Palo Alto, CA 94304 |that the government do it to somebody |else. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | P.J. O'Rourke (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ CDB wrote on Tue, 23 Mar 2010 09:34:22 -0400: > [Yiddish words in English] >> [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > would naturally use "punim". Maybe there has to have been an empty > spot in English for the word to move into. There are very few of those words that I would use naturally even if I know the meanings of about 2/3 of them. Some of them are not even in Leo Rosten's "The Joys of Yinglish" (a book I rely on and enjoy skimming.) There is no mention of "punim" in Rosten's book. Is "dreck" Yiddish? I thought it was just German as in the common name for the Indian Asafetida herb ("hing") of "Teufelsdreck." Incidentally, do you have the chain of vacuum cleaner stores in your area owned by the Oreck company? I can't help mistaking the name for "Dreck", which seems so appropriate. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not >Incidentally, do you have the chain of vacuum cleaner stores in your >area owned by the Oreck company? I can't help mistaking the name for >"Dreck", which seems so appropriate. Dreck seems to be Austrian: Volkslied aus Wien Refrain: Ach, du lieber Augustin, Augustin, Augustin, Ach, du lieber Augustin, Alles ist hin! 1. Geld ist hin, Mädl ist hin, Alles ist hin, Augustin! Ach, du lieber Augustin, Alles ist hin! Refrain: 2. Rock ist weg, Stock ist weg, Augustin liegt im Dreck. Ach, du lieber Augustin, Alles ist hin! Refrain: 3. Und selbst das reiche Wien, Hin ist's wie Augustin; Weint mit mir im gleichen Sinn, Alles ist hin! Refrain: 4. Jeder Tag war ein Fest, Jetzt haben wir die Pest! Nur ein großes Leichenfest, Das ist der Rest. Refrain: 5. Augustin, Augustin, Leg' nur ins Grab dich hin! Ach, du lieber Augustin, Alles ist hin! SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk Steve wrote on Tue, 23 Mar 2010 17:18:45 +0200: >> Incidentally, do you have the chain of vacuum cleaner stores >> in your area owned by the Oreck company? I can't help >> mistaking the name for "Dreck", which seems so appropriate. > Dreck seems to be Austrian: > Volkslied aus Wien > Refrain: > Ach, du lieber Augustin, > Augustin, Augustin, > Ach, du lieber Augustin, > Alles ist hin! > 1. Geld ist hin, Mädl ist hin, > Alles ist hin, Augustin! > Ach, du lieber Augustin, > Alles ist hin! > Refrain: > 2. Rock ist weg, Stock ist weg, > Augustin liegt im Dreck. > Ach, du lieber Augustin, > Alles ist hin! My Harper-Collins, College Edition, German Dictionary simply lists "mud, dirt", without any mention of Austria, but it may be a little mealy-mouthed on other meanings. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > Steve wrote on Tue, 23 Mar 2010 17:18:45 +0200: > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > dirt", without any mention of Austria, but it may be a little > mealy-mouthed on other meanings. There's no entry for "Dreck" in my Duden dictionary "Wie sagt man in Österreich?" I think it's standard German. SignatureJames [...] >> My Harper-Collins, College Edition, German Dictionary simply lists "mud, >> dirt", without any mention of Austria, but it may be a little >> mealy-mouthed on other meanings. > > There's no entry for "Dreck" in my Duden dictionary "Wie sagt man in > Österreich?" I think it's standard German. Yes, that is surely the case. Of which "Duden" do you speak? My "Deutsches Universal Wörterbuch" devotes over one third of a page to "Dreck" (muck, dirt, etc. in English, also used figuratively) and various words derived from it - for example "Dreckarbeit", "Dreckschwein", "Dreckloch", etc. I see that "Dreckloch" could describe the current state of my office. SignatureLes (BrE) > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Yes, that is surely the case. Of which "Duden" do you speak? "Wie sagt man in Österreich?" > My "Deutsches > Universal Wörterbuch" devotes over one third of a page to "Dreck" I like that. > (muck, dirt, etc. in English, also used figuratively) and various words derived > from it - for example "Dreckarbeit", "Dreckschwein", "Dreckloch", etc. I > see that "Dreckloch" could describe the current state of my office. Mine too. SignatureJames [...] >> My Harper-Collins, College Edition, German Dictionary simply lists "mud, >> dirt", without any mention of Austria, but it may be a little >> mealy-mouthed on other meanings. > > There's no entry for "Dreck" in my Duden dictionary "Wie sagt man in > Österreich?" I think it's standard German. Yes, that is surely the case. Of which "Duden" do you speak? My "Deutsches Universal Wörterbuch" devotes over one third of a page to "Dreck" (muck, dirt, etc. in English, also used figuratively) and various words derived from it - for example "Dreckarbeit", "Dreckschwein", "Dreckloch", etc. I see that "Dreckloch" could describe the current state of my office. SignatureLes (BrE) > My Harper-Collins, College Edition, German Dictionary simply lists "mud, > dirt", without any mention of Austria, but it may be a little > mealy-mouthed on other meanings. Dreck can mean filth of most any sort and it's hardly limited to Austria. It's not as strong as some other words 8-) SignatureErilar, biblioholic medievalist http://www.mosaictelecom.com/~erilarlo > Dreck seems to be Austrian: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Ach, du lieber Augustin, > Alles ist hin! I've never heard of that version. It was always "Balls to Mister Wilkinson" when I was a student. Wilkinson was a supervisor of our Physics lab. Balls to Mister Wilkinstein, Wilkinstein, Wilkinstein, Balls to Mister Wilkinstein, Dirty old man. He keeps us all waiting While he's masturbating [...] SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. >Steve Hayes wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >While he's masturbating >[...] It was Balls to Bloody Pocklington in Michael Green's 'More Rugby Songs'. My copy is long lost, and it's not a song in my own repertoire, so I can't quote from it, or even sing it over Usenet. But the refrain matched the Mister Wilkinstein variant. I can now see why it's called a refrain. Because it's best if you don't. SignaturePaul >> Steve Hayes wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > I can now see why it's called a refrain. Because it's best if you > don't. That being as it may (and how could I possibly comment?), in my day it was "Wellington". SignatureMike. Peter Moylan filted: >> Dreck seems to be Austrian: >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >While he's masturbating >[...] I still remember the "translation" of the original offered by Alvin and Chipmunks on their "Chipmunks Around the World" album: Oh, were you born in August, dear? August, dear? August, dear? Were you born in August? Or was it July? September, October, November, December.... ....r Signature"Oy! A cat made of lead cannot fly." - Mark Brader declaims a basic scientific principle > ach, bagel, bashert, blintze, borcht belt/circuit, boychick, bris, > bubbe, bupkis, caser, cholent, chutzpah, cocum, daven, dreck, [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > yahrzeit, yarmulke, Yekke, yente, yichus, Yiddishkeit, yom tov, > zaftig, zayde What about garibaldis ? (dried flies) Is there no equivalent? Signature(¯`·. ®óñ© © ²°¹° .·´¯) >>>> I don't think I ever heard "schmaltz" used to mean anything other >>>> than poultry fat and rarely anything other than chicken fat. But I [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > It is then, as I suspected, a meaning restricted to America, although > I'd like to hear from any British or European Yiddish speakers. I'm surprised to find that the word doesn't appear at all in Florence Greenberg's _Jewish Cookery_ (I have the Penguin, apparently taken from the revision of 1963). It's a very Anglo Anglo-Jewish book, but has plenty of other Jewish cookery terms. I've known "schmaltz" for many years, but I don't know when I learnt it; I probably met it first as an aesthetic, not a culinary, term though. SignatureMike. >>>>> I don't think I ever heard "schmaltz" used to mean anything other >>>>> than poultry fat and rarely anything other than chicken fat. But I [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > years, but I don't know when I learnt it; I probably met it first as an > aesthetic, not a culinary, term though. Flo was from the Anglo-Jewish aristocracy and schmaltz is what the peasants, who never wrote down recipes, ate. The word does have another meaning: something schmaltzy is something that's over-sentimental. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >>>> Robert Bannister filted: > [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > meaning of excessively sentimental or florid music or art or maudlin > sentimentality. Its earliest usage in this sense dates to about 1950. There was a sentimental 19-C painter named Schmaltz...but he hasn't reached Wikipedia yet. The article does move the earliest record of the "sentimentality" sense to the mid-1930s, and adds that among Montreal Jews it's a slang word for money. OED has a quotation from VF in 1935, but that seems to me more about corniness than sentimentality. SignatureMike. > There was a sentimental 19-C painter named Schmaltz...but he hasn't > reached Wikipedia yet. The article does move the earliest record of > the "sentimentality" sense to the mid-1930s, and adds that among > Montreal Jews it's a slang word for money. Herbert Schmalz. But even without the 't' there's no Wikipedia article yet. he was English, and rather late in his life he adopted his maternal grandparents' name, Carmichael. When I first saw something of his I wondered if he had been the origin of 'schmaltz' and 'schmaltzy', but really his paintings are more pious than sentimental. P. >> There was a sentimental 19-C painter named Schmaltz...but he hasn't >> reached Wikipedia yet. The article does move the earliest record of [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > and 'schmaltzy', but really his paintings are more pious than > sentimental. Ah. Thanks for that, Pete. SignatureMike. In article†<‬hnr0ai$mi6$1@news.albasani.netâ€>,‬ †"‬Skittâ€" <‬skitt99@comcast.netâ€> ‬wroteâ€:‬ â€> ‬In American Englishâ€, ‬schmaltz†(‬adjâ€. ‬schmaltzyâ€) ‬has also an informal meaning†‬ â€> ‬of excessively sentimental or florid music or art or maudlin sentimentalityâ€. ‬ â€> ‬Its earliest usage in this sense dates to about 1950â€.‬ This is the sense I'm familiar withâ€, ‬but I thought it was older than†‬ thatâ€? ‬I first encountered it in a German context with that meaningâ€, ‬ howeverâ€.‬ â€-- ‬ Erilarâ€, ‬biblioholic medievalist httpâ€://‬www.mosaictelecom.comâ€/‬~erilarlo > In articleâ? <â?¬hnr0ai$mi6$1@news.albasani.netâ?>,â?¬ > â? "â?¬Skittâ?" <â?¬skitt99@comcast.netâ?> â?¬wroteâ?:â?¬ [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > httpâ?://â?¬www.mosaictelecom.comâ?/â?¬~erilarlo I didn't know you were Italian. ;-) SignatureSkitt (AmE) >> In articleâ? <â?¬hnr0ai$mi6$1@news.albasani.netâ?>,â?¬ >> â? "â?¬Skittâ?" <â?¬skitt99@comcast.netâ?> â?¬wroteâ?:â?¬ [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > I didn't know you were Italian. ;-) All those "â's" are surely Canadian, eh? SignatureRob Bannister >>> In articleâ? <â?¬hnr0ai$mi6$1@news.albasani.netâ?>,â?¬ >>> â? "â?¬Skittâ?" <â?¬skitt99@comcast.netâ?> â?¬wroteâ?:â?¬ [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > All those "â's" are surely Canadian, eh? [pictogram of striding man with arms raised] >In article? <?hnr0ai$mi6$1@news.albasani.net?>,? >? "?Skitt?" <?skitt99@comcast.net?> ?wrote?:? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >that?? ?I first encountered it in a German context with that meaning?, ? >however?.? If you say so. I think ??sucrose? is older than ??gluciose???? SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >>> Robert Bannister filted: >>>> "Lard" ought to be specifically rendered pork fat. Anything else [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >that Weinreich's dictionary defines it as "(animal) fat (as food)", >and I see books that gloss it as "rendered chicken or beef fat". Well, you must be surrounded by lean people. I heard "schmaltz" meaning fat my entire life, fortunately not directed at me. I will admit rendered chicken-fat being called schmaltz is very common, but alas, the days of using chicken-schmaltz almost ubiquitously has gone. A fond memory of my youth is eating lightly salted chicken-schmaltz on rye-bread or chollah. Does anyone still test his arteries with this fare? >>I don't think I ever heard "schmaltz" used to mean anything other >>than poultry fat and rarely anything other than chicken fat. But I [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Well, you must be surrounded by lean people. I heard "schmaltz" > meaning fat my entire life, fortunately not directed at me. That sounds as though you heard it meaning "fat" as the English adjective. I don't think I ever have. The metaphorical senses of "schmaltz" to me come from the greasiness of the substance, not the plumpness of the animal it came from. > I will admit rendered chicken-fat being called schmaltz is very > common, but alas, the days of using chicken-schmaltz almost > ubiquitously has gone. A fond memory of my youth is eating lightly > salted chicken-schmaltz on rye-bread or chollah. Does anyone still > test his arteries with this fare? No. I use it in making chopped liver, but that's about it, and it's hard to come by. But just to be clear: You grew up with "schmaltz" being used for cooking fat made from things other than birds? SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |He who will not reason, is a bigot; 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |he who cannot is a fool; and he who Palo Alto, CA 94304 |dares not is a slave. | Sir William Drummond kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >>>I don't think I ever heard "schmaltz" used to mean anything other >>>than poultry fat and rarely anything other than chicken fat. But I [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >"schmaltz" to me come from the greasiness of the substance, not the >plumpness of the animal it came from. I was misleading. "Schmaltzig" not "schmaltz" is used to describe plumpness. A person could be called "a fetinkeh," "zoftig" or "hibshah." The latter word is certainly used differently than its German sound-alike. There are many ways to remark about the state fatness. FWIW, the words most often used by my father, for the purpose at hand, were "fetinkeh," a not-so-nice word, and "hibshah," a somewhat less derisive word. >>>> Robert Bannister filted: >>>>> "Lard" ought to be specifically rendered pork fat. Anything else [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > rye-bread or chollah. Does anyone still test his arteries with this > fare? That'll be "her arteries": yes, every time I roast a chicken. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >>>>> Robert Bannister filted: >>>>>> "Lard" ought to be specifically rendered pork fat. Anything else [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > >That'll be "her arteries": yes, every time I roast a chicken. But that's not the way chicken schmaltz is traditionally rendered. The excess fat and skin are removed from the uncooked chicken and rendered with onion in a pan or small pot. The chicken skin turns into cracklings (that's "gribenes" or "griven" for the uneducated) and removed from the liquefied fat for later consumption. Gribenes is a long missed treat of my youth. >>>>>> Robert Bannister filted: >>>>>>> "Lard" ought to be specifically rendered pork fat. Anything else [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > liquefied fat for later consumption. Gribenes is a long missed treat of > my youth. Indeed and that's just what I do, although I leave the grebenes in the schmaltz, to be spread on the challa (which I have baked: six plaits). Then I roast the chicken. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >>>>>>> Robert Bannister filted: >>>>>>>> "Lard" ought to be specifically rendered pork fat. Anything else [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] >schmaltz, to be spread on the challa (which I have baked: six plaits). >Then I roast the chicken. Let me know the next time you make it; I'll be over. >>>>>>>> Robert Bannister filted: >>>>>>>>> "Lard" ought to be specifically rendered pork fat. Anything else [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > Let me know the next time you make it; I'll be over. Tonight! I'll be saving it for Pesach, though, it's one of the few things that makes matzah palatable IMO. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >>> Indeed and that's just what I do, although I leave the grebenes in >>> the schmaltz, to be spread on the challa (which I have baked: six [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Tonight! I'll be saving it for Pesach, though, it's one of the few > things that makes matzah palatable IMO. I can see challah making matzah more palatable, but isn't it kind of against the rules? SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |I believe there are more instances 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |of the abridgment of the freedom of Palo Alto, CA 94304 |the people by gradual and silent |encroachments of those in power kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |than by violent and sudden (650)857-7572 |usurpations. | James Madison http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >>>>>>> Robert Bannister filted: >>>>>>>> "Lard" ought to be specifically rendered pork fat. Anything [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > schmaltz, to be spread on the challa (which I have baked: six plaits). > Then I roast the chicken. Your method is similar to this porky one. 'Schmalz', without a 't': http://germanfood.about.com/od/resources/r/schmalz.htm When we weans were wee we were weaned on dripping. I'm dying to try it with apple. Peter > Indeed and that's just what I do, although I leave the grebenes in the > schmaltz, to be spread on the challa (which I have baked: six plaits). > Then I roast the chicken. OK, I want to go to your house for dinner. SignatureI HAVE NEITHER BEEN THERE NOR DONE THAT Bart chalkboard Ep. AABF17 ... > > But that's not the way chicken schmaltz is traditionally rendered. The > > excess fat and skin are removed from the uncooked chicken and rendered [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > schmaltz, to be spread on the challa (which I have baked: six plaits). > Then I roast the chicken. Have I neglected to say, "Mm mm mm"? Mm mm mm. My mother says "grivens" or "grivenes" (which latter is what her mother said). My father, still more anglicized, says "cracklin's". -- Jerry Friedman > I don't think I ever heard "schmaltz" used to mean anything other than > poultry fat and rarely anything other than chicken fat. But I see > that Weinreich's dictionary defines it as "(animal) fat (as food)", > and I see books that gloss it as "rendered chicken or beef fat". The only time I recall seeing the word (apart from metaphorical schmaltz) was on a jar of herring fillets in what looked like oil. SignatureRegards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au >> I don't think I ever heard "schmaltz" used to mean anything other than >> poultry fat and rarely anything other than chicken fat. But I see [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > The only time I recall seeing the word (apart from metaphorical > schmaltz) was on a jar of herring fillets in what looked like oil. Wikipedia says Shmaltz herring is mature, fatty herring, filleted and preserved in brine and brown sugar, in vegetable oil, or in rendered chicken or goose fat (schmaltz in German and Yiddish), or in pork fat. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shmaltz_herring Unfortunately, none of the three references it points to say that is preserved in anything other than brine. yourdictionary.com quotes Wiley's _Webster's New World College Dictionary_ defining "schmaltz herring" as herring caught just before spawning, when it has much fat which accords with most of the references I see, for which it's a property of the herring rather than a preparation. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Well, if you can't believe what you 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |read in a comic book, what can you Palo Alto, CA 94304 |believe?! | Bullwinkle J. Moose kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >> The only time I recall seeing the word (apart from metaphorical >> schmaltz) was on a jar of herring fillets in what looked like oil. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > which accords with most of the references I see, for which it's a > property of the herring rather than a preparation. Thanks, Evan. I had assumed it referred to the oil. So, if these herrings were in chicken or goose fat, they'd be doubly shmaltz. SignatureRegards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrox > And here I thought Hydrox was a knock-off of Oreo cookies. Shows what > marketing (or the lack of it) can do. Growing up I knew a lot of older people who called all cookies like that 'hydrox' cookies, regardless of brand. > And I see that the Oreo cr?me filling is no longer made with lard. That was a sad, sad day. SignatureSometimes the only thing you could do for people was to be there. --Soul Music Mike Lyle filted: >[...] >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >loved, despite a dullness verging on unpleasantness, for Proustian >reasons? Couldn't say...even as a child, I preferred Hydrox....r Signature"Oy! A cat made of lead cannot fly." - Mark Brader declaims a basic scientific principle > Mike Lyle filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Couldn't say...even as a child, I preferred Hydrox....r But, for some reason, you didn't follow it up with a career in analytical chemistry? ...Oh, I see: in Britain you get excellent things called "Water biscuits", so I imagine that's what you mean. Like a harder, thinner, circular Jacobs' Cream Cracker or a small round hard salted matzo. SignatureMike. >> Mike Lyle filted: >>> [...] [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > harder, thinner, circular Jacobs' Cream Cracker or a small round hard > salted matzo. Small round matzos are called "tea matzos". No more palatable than their big brothers but slightly easier to butter. Oh dear, only two weeks to go. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) > Small round matzos are called "tea matzos". No more palatable than their > big brothers but slightly easier to butter. Oh dear, only two weeks to go. Good for very tiny pizzas. If you like cette sorte de chose. One friend swears by it as *the* way to get through the week+. I've overstocked as shall end up travelling. Wonder if matzoh attract the wrong kind of attention in luggage searches. best from Brussels, Stephanie > Mike Lyle filted: >> [...] [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Couldn't say...even as a child, I preferred Hydrox....r Hydrox is a biscuit? Sounds like washing powder. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) [Oreos] > > Couldn't say...even as a child, I preferred Hydrox....r > > Hydrox is a biscuit? Sounds like washing powder. Must... resist... straight line... -- Jerry Friedman > Couldn't say...even as a child, I preferred Hydrox....r I had a friend at work who switched from Oreos to Hydrox when R.J. Reynolds bought Nabisco. He objected to tobacco companies and didn't wish to patronize one in any form. Brian SignatureDay 406 of the "no grouchy usenet posts" project > >> Couldn't say...even as a child, I preferred Hydrox....r > I had a friend at work who switched from Oreos to Hydrox when R.J. > Reynolds bought Nabisco. He objected to tobacco companies and didn't > wish to patronize one in any form. Well, as far as I know, Hydrox do not exist anymore. SignatureImagine all the people Sharing all the world Lewis filted: >> >>> Couldn't say...even as a child, I preferred Hydrox....r [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Well, as far as I know, Hydrox do not exist anymore. Gresham's Law strikes again....r Signature"Oy! A cat made of lead cannot fly." - Mark Brader declaims a basic scientific principle > In message <80a4e3F1d...@mid.individual.net> > Default <defaultuse...@yahoo.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > -- > Imagine all the people Sharing all the world Never ever seen them, as far as I remember, However: http://www.seriouseats.com/2008/05/hydrox-cookies-are-back-temporarily-but-recip e-may-be-changed.html On 15 Mar 2010, Mike Lyle wrote > [...] >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > loved, despite a dullness verging on unpleasantness, for Proustian > reasons? Although I had Oreos as a child, I don't think my current liking for them is Proustian: I like the "sweet-and-maybe-not-sour-but-not-sweet" thing that happens with them. That is, the sugar's in the filling -- which I think is pure sugar -- while the chocolate biscuits, by themselves, aren't particulary sweet. (Yes, I dismantle them when I eat them.) IMNSHO, they'r miles removed from the boringness of jammie dodgers and custard creams, which are dull precisely because there's not enough difference in flavour between the biscuits and the filling. Footnoe for NAm readers. It's quite difficult to source truly unsweetened chocolate over here: I've not come across any local British which is like US cooking chocolate. I also recall someone over here denigrating Hershey's as tasting like a "cheap and nasty cooking chocolate" -- which might give you some idea of what sort of sweetened stuff is sold over here as "cooking chocolate".) SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed > That reminds me: been meaning to ask for ages. Do adults actually _like_ > Oreos? Or are they, like British "jammie dodgers" and "custard creams", > loved, despite a dullness verging on unpleasantness, for Proustian > reasons? This adult doesn't like them, and never really has. SignatureSML >>>[...] >>>> I want a general almost all-purpose exclamation. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >situations, but "balls" seems to be strictly negative. (Then again, I >haven't heard it much.) From my prior post, "Maybe it would be easier to make a list of exclamations that aren't minced oaths, that aren't euphemisms for profanity or scatology, and are just polite, secular interjections. Can anyone think of any?" SignaturePosters should say where they live, and for which area they are asking questions. I was born and then lived in Western Pa. 10 years Indianapolis 7 years Chicago 6 years Brooklyn, NY 12 years Baltimore 26 years >>>> [...] >>>>> I want a general almost all-purpose exclamation. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Can anyone think of any?" Ouch! Wow! Boy! Man! Hoots! SignatureJames >>>>[...] >>>>> I want a general almost all-purpose exclamation. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >Can anyone think of any?" Yikes! I'm sure you can think of plenty and can go off exclaiming yippee! > Yikes! I'm sure you can think of plenty and can go off exclaiming > yippee! Did Yikes! originate with Scooby Doo? the Oxford American mumble mumble is OS X says its origins are unknown, but lists it from the 1970's in the US, which would mesh with Scooby Doo. It was certainly the first place I heard it. But then I heard "Zounds" on Scooby Doo too, and only much later found out that was "God's Wounds". I know some have claimed that Yikes is 'probably' from yoicks, but that seems very unlikely to me, considering yoicks is a BrE fox hunting thing and yikes seems to be clearly AmE. SignatureIncredible! One of the worst performances of my career and they never doubted it for a second. Thunder rolled... It is said that the gods play games with the fates of men. But what games, and why, and the identities of the actual pawns, and what the game is, and what the rules are - who knows? Best not to speculate. Thunder rolled... It rolled a six. --Guards! Guards! > > Yikes! I'm sure you can think of plenty and can go off exclaiming > > yippee! > > Did Yikes! originate with Scooby Doo? the Oxford American mumble mumble > is OS X says its origins are unknown, but lists it from the 1970's in > the US, which would mesh with Scooby Doo. Don't trust Oxford to date any sort of American slang correctly. Google Books shows Yikes!" as an exclamation from 1922 on. Sulfur, Issues 30-31 - Page 200 California Institute of Technology - - 1922 Yikes! As a reader of Bunting's work Forde is not atypical in most regards. The odes are read largely as exercises in technique preparing Bunting for the ... The New Yorker, Volume 11, Issue 1 - Humor - 1935 Yikes! If you think that the closeup portrait photos Schoeller makes for the pages of this and ... > It was certainly the first place I heard it. The first place you head something probably has nothing to do with its origin, I'm afraid. The Fallacy of the First Encounter. > But then I heard "Zounds" > on Scooby Doo too, and only much later found out that was "God's [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > seems very unlikely to me, considering yoicks is a BrE fox hunting thing > and yikes seems to be clearly AmE. I vaguely assumed it was a variant of the quite similar "Yipes!" Google Books shows that emerging as an exclamation about the same time, becoming common after WWII. But unlike "Yikes," we can get a fairly reasonable grasp of "Yipes" origin, from the "yelp" noise of a dog. The Wookey: a play - Page 174 Frederick Hazlitt Brennan - Drama - 1941 - 247 pages After a moment of silence, a dog yipes from pain offstage at left. ... [Dog yipes again.] This early GooBoo quote also suggests "Yipes!" is closely related "Yippee!": The Trail. A Magazine "For Colorado" Official Organ of the Society of Sons ...? - Page 55 1909 The morning of the Fourth I tumbled from my bunk at dawn and after saluting the rising sun with a round from my six-shooter, accompanied by three yipes for the red, white, and blue ... MW dates "yippee" to 1914. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux > The first place you head something probably has nothing to do with its > origin, I'm afraid. The Fallacy of the First Encounter. That's why I asked. SignatureI WAS NOT TOLD TO DO THIS Bart chalkboard Ep. 5F13 WORDS IN THE HEART CANNOT BE TAKEN --Feet of Clay > > The first place you head something probably has nothing to do with its > > origin, I'm afraid. The Fallacy of the First Encounter. > > That's why I asked. Oh, I didn't mean that as a scold. Just a rueful acknowlegement of a general experience, the Fallacy of the First Encounter. Well, on second thought, I guess I felt a small bit of exasperation. To say "I first heard this word on Scooby-Doo" would be a neutral data point, but to actually propose, even in the form of a question, that this could actually be the origin, makes me feel, "You could look it up and find out." Since I am a rhotic speaker of English, I would like to put the R back into "head." SignatureBest - Donna Richoux An American living in the Netherlands >> > The first place you head something probably has nothing to do with its >> > origin, I'm afraid. The Fallacy of the First Encounter. >> >> That's why I asked. > Oh, I didn't mean that as a scold. Just a rueful acknowlegement of a > general experience, the Fallacy of the First Encounter. > Well, on second thought, I guess I felt a small bit of exasperation. To > say "I first heard this word on Scooby-Doo" would be a neutral data > point, but to actually propose, even in the form of a question, that > this could actually be the origin, makes me feel, "You could look it up > and find out." I did look it up. It said US, 1970's. Had it said 1950's or 1920's I would not have thought of Scooby Doo at all, but since the time period seemed to fit with my recollection... SignatureIt wasn't that her [Susan's] parents didn't believe in such things. They didn't need to believe in them. They knew they existed. They just wished they didn't. --Hogfather [snip discussion of "yikes" ] > I vaguely assumed it was a variant of the quite similar "Yipes!" Google > Books shows that emerging as an exclamation about the same time, [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > MW dates "yippee" to 1914. It just occurred to me to look up "yip" and I'm a bit surprised to find that it isn't much older -- Etymology: imitative Date: 1907 1 : to bark sharply, quickly, and often continuously 2 : to utter a short sharp cry I remember that reseach on words like "yuck" and "ouch" showed that they weren't very old. As if it didn't occur to people, for a long time, to spell out noises? SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux >> > Yikes! I'm sure you can think of plenty and can go off exclaiming >> > yippee! [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Yikes! If you think that the closeup > portrait photos Schoeller makes for the pages of this and ... Do you get anything datable for those? The first one I see that I can confirm the date on is _Life_ magazine, 3/15/1954. My guess is that "yikes" is a reanalysis of "yoicks", a word originally used in fox hunting (cited to 1774), incorrectly assuming that the earlier one had been spoken with an accent that moved /aI/ to /OI/. I see "Yoiks!" described as "genteel profanity of an earlier generation" in _The Living Age_, 10-12/1903. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |"Revolution" has many definitions. 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |From the looks of this, I'd say Palo Alto, CA 94304 |"going around in circles" comes |closest to applying... kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | Richard M. Hartman (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >My guess is that "yikes" is a reanalysis of "yoicks", a word >originally used in fox hunting (cited to 1774), incorrectly assuming >that the earlier one had been spoken with an accent that moved /aI/ to >/OI/. I see "Yoiks!" described as "genteel profanity of an earlier >generation" in _The Living Age_, 10-12/1903. The OED says of "yikes": [Origin unknown, but cf. YOICKS int.] A call used in fox-hunting to urge on the hounds; also occas. gen. as an exclamation of excitement or exultation. The only quote that is not from hunting is: 1884 Blackw. Mag. May 642/1 With renewed spirits he jumped into a hansom, and gave the direction..‘Yoicks!’ cried he to himself, ‘I'm going it!’ That is a (slightly) transferred use of the word, but unlike "yikes" it is not "An exclamation of astonishment". SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.english.usage) >> Google Books shows Yikes!" as an exclamation from 1922 > > on. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Do you get anything datable for those? The first one I see that I > can confirm the date on is _Life_ magazine, 3/15/1954. Oh, darn, I forgot about all the ways that Google Books can let us down. I just went to the New Yorker archives and checked on "Schoeller" -- they say, "Martin Schoeller has been a staff photographer at The New Yorker since 1999." So scratch the 1935. As for the 1922 one, it must also be rubbish. _Sulfur_ was indeed a poetry magazine, not a scientific one, but it was founded in 1981. Crumb, drat and guldarn it. SignatureDonna Richoux >>> Google Books shows Yikes!" as an exclamation from 1922 >> > on. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Crumb, drat and guldarn it. Yeah. I've just gotten into the habit of clicking on the "Limited preview and full view" link as soon as I do my first search. That way I can personally confirm the date. I don't bother with snippets. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |The law of supply and demand tells us 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |that when the price of something is Palo Alto, CA 94304 |artificially set below market level, |there will soon be none of that thing kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |left--as you may have noticed the (650)857-7572 |last time you tried to buy something |for nothing. http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | P.J. O'Rourke > >>> Google Books shows Yikes!" as an exclamation from 1922 > >> > on. [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > preview and full view" link as soon as I do my first search. That way > I can personally confirm the date. I don't bother with snippets. Though you miss a few things that way, since sometimes you can confirm the date of a snippet. -- Jerry Friedman > Did Yikes! originate with Scooby Doo? the Oxford American mumble mumble > is OS X says its origins are unknown, but lists it from the 1970's M-W says 1957. ¬R On 11 Mar 2010, Glenn Knickerbocker wrote >> Did Yikes! originate with Scooby Doo? the Oxford American mumble mumble >> is OS X says its origins are unknown, but lists it from the 1970's > > M-W says 1957. Even that's surprising; I'd have guessed it went with what I'd think of as early 20thC stuff like "crikey", "egad", "crumbs", and "oopsy-daisy". SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed >> Did Yikes! originate with Scooby Doo? the Oxford American mumble mumble >> is OS X says its origins are unknown, but lists it from the 1970's > > M-W says 1957. Donna says 1922. SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. >> Did Yikes! originate with Scooby Doo? the Oxford American mumble mumble >> is OS X says its origins are unknown, but lists it from the 1970's > M-W says 1957. Would this be a good time to expound on my opinion of M-W? Nah, I've got stuff to do tonight. I'll summarize: Worst. Dictionary. Ever. SignatureI WILL REMEMBER TO TAKE MY MEDICATION Bart chalkboard Ep. 2F14 THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE DOES NOT END WITH HAIL SATAN Bart chalkboard Ep. 1F16 > >> Did Yikes! originate with Scooby Doo? the Oxford American mumble mumble > >> is OS X says its origins are unknown, but lists it from the 1970's [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > I'll summarize: Worst. Dictionary. Ever. Nonsense. I've seen much worse. Merely the fact that they quote a year for their first known citation -- how many dictionaries are kind enough to do that? -- and that digitized searches can now find antedatings -- that's not enough to label it the "Worst. Dictionary. Ever." Antedatings of OED entries are found by its staff all the time -- they want to find them, they love finding them. The OED staff ran a TV show begging the public to send in antedatings. I suspect you dislike MW because they are relatively quick to acknowledge that a new meaning of a word has been added to the language, something irritating for those of us who realize that the new meaning has been added through error. Like the confusion of flout and flaunt, for example. SignatureDonna Richoux >> >> Did Yikes! originate with Scooby Doo? the Oxford American mumble mumble >> >> is OS X says its origins are unknown, but lists it from the 1970's [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> >> I'll summarize: Worst. Dictionary. Ever. > Nonsense. I've seen much worse. > Merely the fact that they quote a year for their first known citation -- > how many dictionaries are kind enough to do that? -- and that digitized > searches can now find antedatings -- that's not enough to label it the > "Worst. Dictionary. Ever." Antedatings of OED entries are found by its > staff all the time -- they want to find them, they love finding them. > The OED staff ran a TV show begging the public to send in antedatings. That has nothing to do with my opinion of the M-W, per se. > I suspect you dislike MW because they are relatively quick to > acknowledge that a new meaning of a word has been added to the language, Most of what I dislike is its outright errors in definitions. M-W is terrible in this department and if ther is any nuance to a word, M-W is sure to miss it. > something irritating for those of us who realize that the new meaning > has been added through error. Like the confusion of flout and flaunt, > for example. There is that as well. Signature"Thank you for sending me a copy of your book; I'll waste no time reading it." - Moses Hadas >> I suspect you dislike MW because they are relatively quick to >> acknowledge that a new meaning of a word has been added to the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > terrible in this department and if ther is any nuance to a word, M-W > is sure to miss it. I have often thought that too, based on excerpts I've seen posted here over the years. They sometimes miss the point entirely. I wish I'd kept some examples. One that comes to mind was their definition of 'zap' as the sound made by a gun, which made it sound like a synonym for 'bang'. The point they missed was that it is specifically the sound made by a _ray_-gun in some of the early science fiction stories. Guns go 'bang', ray-guns go 'zap'. SignatureRegards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au >>> I suspect you dislike MW because they are relatively quick to >>> acknowledge that a new meaning of a word has been added to the [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > _ray_-gun in some of the early science fiction stories. Guns go > 'bang', ray-guns go 'zap'. Rat-tat-tat. Puh KEW Ack ack. Now, on to arrows? > >> In message <1jf8nde.1xi4ikuqjztp4N%t...@euronet.nl> > >> Donna <t...@euronet.nl> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Now, on to arrows? Not sure about arrows, but 'zap' isn't an entirely hopeless rendering of the sound of a bullet hitting something that makes the right sort of noise when hit by a speeding bullet. If the bullet is travelling at supersonic speeds the zap is lost in the crack (aka sonic boom, but scaled down to pixie-size), but a subsonic bullet passing through a zappy sort of object sounds fairly zaplike. -- franzi franzi wrote on Sat, 13 Mar 2010 14:12:32 -0800 (PST): > >>> In message <1jf8nde.1xi4ikuqjztp4N%t...@euronet.nl> > >>> Donna <t...@euronet.nl> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >scaled down to pixie-size), but a subsonic bullet passing through a >zappy sort of object sounds fairly zaplike. Ray guns have to make a noise for movies and TV. It's a bit like the notion that laser beams have to be red and not invisible. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > franzi wrote on Sat, 13 Mar 2010 14:12:32 -0800 (PST): > >>>>> In message <1jf8nde.1xi4ikuqjztp4N%t...@euronet.nl> >>>>> Donna <t...@euronet.nl> wrote: >>>>> Most of what I dislike is its outright errors in >>>>> definitions. M-W is terrible in this department and if [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Ray guns have to make a noise for movies and TV. It's a bit like the > notion that laser beams have to be red and not invisible. The redness is not such a big problem; the ruby laser was one of the earliest to be invented, and red laser light is still common. The real problem is the visibility of light beams in space. Some of those space battles must be fought in awfully thick dust clouds. SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. > The real problem is the visibility of light beams in space. Some of > those space battles must be fought in awfully thick dust clouds. Even that doesn't bother me that much. It could easily be a plasma-laser combo or something. It's the spiderweb grid of criss crossing laser beams to indicate high security, *those* really get to me. SignatureA BELCH IS NOT AN ORAL REPORT Bart chalkboard Ep. BABF11 >> franzi wrote on Sat, 13 Mar 2010 14:12:32 -0800 (PST): >> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >The redness is not such a big problem; the ruby laser was one of the >earliest to be invented, and red laser light is still common. The red light is a He-Ne (Helium-Neon) gas beam. The ruby laser is a solid state laser using a synthetic ruby crystal. Not at all the same as the aiming beam you see. Ruby lasers used to be used to remove tattoos and birth marks, but the Nd:YAG lasers are now used for this. You wouldn't want to use a ruby laser beam as an aiming beam. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >The red light is a He-Ne (Helium-Neon) gas beam. The ruby laser is a >solid state laser using a synthetic ruby crystal. Not at all the same >as the aiming beam you see. Ruby lasers used to be used to remove >tattoos and birth marks, but the Nd:YAG lasers are now used for this. >You wouldn't want to use a ruby laser beam as an aiming beam. Why did you sy "not at all the same"? >>The red light is a He-Ne (Helium-Neon) gas beam. The ruby laser is a >>solid state laser using a synthetic ruby crystal. Not at all the same [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Why did you sy "not at all the same"? Why do you question "not at all the same"? SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>>The red light is a He-Ne (Helium-Neon) gas beam. The ruby laser is a >>>solid state laser using a synthetic ruby crystal. Not at all the same [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Why do you question "not at all the same"? Re-reading your statement, I'm not quite sure what your reference is; however, a laser is a laser regardless of the lasing material. I'm not quite sure why there is something significant regarding "aiming beams." The things I see significant between the lasers you talk about is the wavelength of the radiation and that the He-Ne lases continuously, while the other two are pulse mode lasers. >>>>The red light is a He-Ne (Helium-Neon) gas beam. The ruby laser is a >>>>solid state laser using a synthetic ruby crystal. Not at all the same [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >wavelength of the radiation and that the He-Ne lases continuously, while >the other two are pulse mode lasers. Those red He-Ne beams that seen as gun sights, pointing devices, leveling devices, etc, are "not at all the same" as a ruby laser beam that is used for surgery or other technical applications. They may be the same as in "a laser beam is a laser beam", but John was confusing the ruby laser with the He-Ne laser in application. What he saw as a red beam used to aim a weapon was not the same as a ruby laser beam. It's like saying that a horse is not at all the same as a cow. While you can argue that both are animals, both have four legs, both are live born, and so forth, that doesn't negate that they are not at all the same thing. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>>>>The red light is a He-Ne (Helium-Neon) gas beam. The ruby laser is a >>>>>solid state laser using a synthetic ruby crystal. Not at all the same [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >live born, and so forth, that doesn't negate that they are not at all >the same thing. It's that phrase "not at all the same thing" that gives me trouble. It's a logical issue. You have given the similarities between a cow and a horse and then say they have no similarities. Could you pare it to "not exactly the same thing"? Murray Arnow filted: >It's that phrase "not at all the same thing" that gives me trouble. It's >a logical issue. You have given the similarities between a cow and a >horse and then say they have no similarities. Could you pare it to "not >exactly the same thing"? Looks like "not at all" is one of those expressions that has different strength in different places, like we discovered when someone tried to rank the qualifier "quite" on a scale between "slightly" and "very"....r Signature"Oy! A cat made of lead cannot fly." - Mark Brader declaims a basic scientific principle > It's that phrase "not at all the same thing" that gives me trouble. It's > a logical issue. You have given the similarities between a cow and a > horse and then say they have no similarities. Could you pare it to "not > exactly the same thing"? English is, like all languages, not perfectly logical. "Not at all the same thing" means "despite the similarities you see, you seem to be under the impression these things are very much the same, they are not. They are quite different." It does not mean, literally, that they are not *at all* the same thing. One can easily, and rightly say that NFL Football and Football are not at all the same thing, despite them both being outdoor sports played with 11 players to a side where the point is to advance the ball to the opponents goal. You would be right in saying that they are quite similar, and I would be right in saying they are not at all the same thing. SignatureHe [Carrot] could lead armies, Angua thought. He really could. Some people have inspired whole countries to great deeds because of the power of their vision. And so could he. Not because he dreams about marching hordes, or world domination, or an empire of a thousand years. Just because he thinks that everyone's really decent underneath and would get along just fine if only they made an effort, and he believes that strongly it burns like a flame that is bigger than he is. --Men at Arms >>>>>>The red light is a He-Ne (Helium-Neon) gas beam. The ruby laser is a >>>>>>solid state laser using a synthetic ruby crystal. Not at all the same [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >horse and then say they have no similarities. Could you pare it to "not >exactly the same thing"? Not being a physicist, or scientifically trained in any way, I'm quite comfortable saying "not at all the same thing". However, if ever invited to address a group of scientifically trained people, I will bear your observation in mind. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida > Those red He-Ne beams that seen as gun sights, pointing devices, > leveling devices, etc, are "not at all the same" as a ruby laser beam > that is used for surgery or other technical applications. They may be > the same as in "a laser beam is a laser beam", but John was confusing > the ruby laser with the He-Ne laser in application. What he saw as a > red beam used to aim a weapon was not the same as a ruby laser beam. I didn't say anything about colours of rays; I only mentioned the comic-book sound, 'zap'. SignatureRegards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au >> Those red He-Ne beams that seen as gun sights, pointing devices, >> leveling devices, etc, are "not at all the same" as a ruby laser beam [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I didn't say anything about colours of rays; I only mentioned the > comic-book sound, 'zap'. Which, of course, is the sound made by a zap-gun. Ruby laser, I waunt'cha. Like a ghost Im'a gonna haunt'cha. SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. >> Those red He-Ne beams that seen as gun sights, pointing devices, >> leveling devices, etc, are "not at all the same" as a ruby laser beam [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >I didn't say anything about colours of rays; I only mentioned the >comic-book sound, 'zap'. It was actually Peter who added: John: Ray guns have to make a noise for movies and TV. It's a bit like the notion that laser beams have to be red and not invisible. Peter: The redness is not such a big problem; the ruby laser was one of the earliest to be invented, and red laser light is still common. While Peter didn't say the red beams were Ruby beams, there's an association in his statement. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida tony wrote on Mon, 15 Mar 2010 10:43:55 -0400: >>> Those red He-Ne beams that seen as gun sights, pointing >>> devices, leveling devices, etc, are "not at all the same" as [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> I didn't say anything about colours of rays; I only mentioned >> the comic-book sound, 'zap'. > It was actually Peter who added: > John: Ray guns have to make a noise for movies and TV. It's a bit > like the notion that laser beams have to be red and not > invisible. > Peter: The redness is not such a big problem; the ruby laser was > one of the earliest to be invented, and red laser light is > still common. > While Peter didn't say the red beams were Ruby beams, there's > an association in his statement. I seem to remember previously mentioning Talmudic analysis or "Pilpul". This discussion seems to qualify, especially since you can't see laser *beams* unless there is mist, dust or some object to scatter the light. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > tony wrote on Mon, 15 Mar 2010 10:43:55 -0400: > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >This discussion seems to qualify, especially since you can't see laser >*beams* unless there is mist, dust or some object to scatter the light. True, but isn't the red spot that is created by the He-Ne laser on the target part of the "beam"? Or, are you considering that the object that is scattering the light? SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida tony wrote on Mon, 15 Mar 2010 11:35:13 -0400: >> tony wrote on Mon, 15 Mar 2010 10:43:55 -0400: >> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >> you can't see laser *beams* unless there is mist, dust or >> some object to scatter the light. > True, but isn't the red spot that is created by the He-Ne > laser on the target part of the "beam"? Or, are you > considering that the object that is scattering the light? It still seems Pilpul to me but the red spot that you see is no longer coherent light just as happens with a laser pointer used by a lecturer. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not >James Silverton" >jim silverton wrote: [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >target part of the "beam"? Or, are you considering that the object >that is scattering the light? Not really. These are two different lasers with different wavelengths. The odd thing about a ruby laser is that although the laser light is a deep red, what most people see is the white flash from the xenon flashtube used to pump the laser. And still more oddly, the light from the xenon flash has more energy than the light emitted from the ruby laser. >> I didn't say anything about colours of rays; I only mentioned the >> comic-book sound, 'zap'. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > John: Ray guns have to make a noise for movies and TV. It's a bit like > the notion that laser beams have to be red and not invisible. No, I think that was James, not me. SignatureRegards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au tony wrote on Sun, 14 Mar 2010 10:40:46 -0400: >>> The red light is a He-Ne (Helium-Neon) gas beam. The ruby >>> laser is a solid state laser using a synthetic ruby crystal. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >>> >> Why did you sy "not at all the same"? > Why do you question "not at all the same"? May I just mention one observation? I'm sure many people have attended lectures where a laser pointer was used. Anyone ever see the beam connecting the pointer and the, say, arrow? SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > tony wrote on Sun, 14 Mar 2010 10:40:46 -0400: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >lectures where a laser pointer was used. Anyone ever see the beam >connecting the pointer and the, say, arrow? Not since the days when we were allowed to smoke in the lecture hall. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida tony wrote on Sun, 14 Mar 2010 00:02:35 -0500: >>> franzi wrote on Sat, 13 Mar 2010 14:12:32 -0800 (PST): >>> [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >> of the earliest to be invented, and red laser light is still >> common. > The red light is a He-Ne (Helium-Neon) gas beam. The ruby > laser is a solid state laser using a synthetic ruby crystal. > Not at all the same as the aiming beam you see. Ruby lasers > used to be used to remove tattoos and birth marks, but the Nd:YAG > lasers are now used for this. You wouldn't want to use a ruby > laser beam as an aiming beam. But can you see a laser beam until it is scattered by an object? SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not On 13 Mar 2010, Pat Durkin wrote >> One that comes to mind was their definition of 'zap' as the sound >> made by a gun, which made it sound like a synonym for 'bang'. The [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Now, on to arrows? Isn't the best sound made by arrows defined as "One hundred and EIIIIIIIGHTY!" SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed > One that comes to mind was their definition of 'zap' as the sound made > by a gun, which made it sound like a synonym for 'bang'. The point > they missed was that it is specifically the sound made by a _ray_-gun > in some of the early science fiction stories. Guns go 'bang', ray-guns > go 'zap'. Although interestingly, the OED's first sense as a verb is "to kill, esp. with a gun", cited to a 1942 _American Thesaurus of Slang_, where it appears to refer to a garden-variety gun. For the sound effect, they have Used to represent the sound of a ray gun, laser, bullet, etc. so while the first (1929) citation is of the sound of "a deadly disintigrator ray", it apparently they have evidence of its being used with normal guns, too. (None of their citations show it.) SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |A burro is an a.s. A burrow is a 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |hole in the ground. As a Palo Alto, CA 94304 |journalist, you are expected to |know the difference. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | UPI Stylebook (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ Lewis filted: >> Yikes! I'm sure you can think of plenty and can go off exclaiming >> yippee! [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >on Scooby Doo too, and only much later found out that was "God's >Wounds". Elsewhere in this thread the date 1922 has been mentioned, which sounds right.... I wouldn't have any quarrel, though, with attributing both "Zoinks!" and "Jinkies!" to the Scooby Doo crew, more specifically to Shaggy and Velma respectively....r Signature"Oy! A cat made of lead cannot fly." - Mark Brader declaims a basic scientific principle [snip] > From my prior post, "Maybe it would be easier to make a list of > exclamations that aren't minced oaths, that aren't euphemisms for > profanity or scatology, and are just polite, secular interjections. > Can anyone think of any?" In this family, it has been the custom just to say, "Rude words!" With best wishes, Peter. SignaturePeter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004. (US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired. http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk > On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 08:14:10 -0800, Evan Kirshenbaum > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Can anyone think of any?" Sockdolager! Good! Too bad! Boo sucks! (Maybe.) -- Jerry Friedman mm filted: >Maybe it would be easier to make a list of exclamations that aren't >minced oaths, that aren't euphemisms for profanity or scatology, and [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >I want a general almost all-purpose exclamation. Hey!... From AUE tradition: Oy!... If we're allowed to use 21st-century coinages, there's also "w00t!"...r Signature"Oy! A cat made of lead cannot fly." - Mark Brader declaims a basic scientific principle > I want a general almost all-purpose exclamation. From what I can tell, "Oh, snap!" seems to fit the bill nowadays. ¬R >> I want a general almost all-purpose exclamation. > >From what I can tell, "Oh, snap!" seems to fit the bill nowadays. Now, that's an everyday exclamation that's heard everywhere by everyone save me. >>> I want a general almost all-purpose exclamation. >>From what I can tell, "Oh, snap!" seems to fit the bill nowadays. > > Now, that's an everyday exclamation that's heard everywhere by everyone > save me. I've only ever heard Hugh Laurie say it, and then only as an American character. SignatureAl in St. Lou >>>> I want a general almost all-purpose exclamation. >>> From what I can tell, "Oh, snap!" seems to fit the bill nowadays. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I've only ever heard Hugh Laurie say it, and then only as an American > character. It may have originated with the children's TV network, Nickelodeon. --Jeff SignatureLove consists of overestimating the differences between one woman and another. --George Bernard Shaw >>> From what I can tell, "Oh, snap!" seems to fit the bill nowadays. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I've only ever heard Hugh Laurie say it, and then only as an > American character. I'm sure someone remembers the details; this info is from a very foggy memory. About 20 years ago, there was a TV comedy show in which two black Winan (sp?) brothers performed sketches. One of them (tall, shaved head) played a campy, witty, sassy-talking gay character who repeatedly used "Oh, snap!" or a similar exclamation with "snap" while snapping his fingers. That's the only time I've ever heard it. Signature~~~ Reinhold {Rey} Aman ~~~ Reinhold {Rey} Aman filted: >>>> From what I can tell, "Oh, snap!" seems to fit the bill nowadays. >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >repeatedly used "Oh, snap!" or a similar exclamation with "snap" while >snapping his fingers. That's the only time I've ever heard it. That was "In Living Color", starring Damon Wayans and (in the sketch in question) fellow cast member David Alan Grier...I don't remember "Oh, snap!" used in that way, but rather "two snaps up!" in imitation of Siskel & Ebert's "two thumbs up" whenever they approved of something.... Here's the first appearance of the bit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWdL9mrYNmQ I first started hearing "Oh, snap!" on a recurring basis, meaning "I'm unpleasantly surprised by this turn of events", from the character of Joy (Jamie Pressley) on "My Name Is Earl", quite a few years after "In Living Color"....r Signature"Oy! A cat made of lead cannot fly." - Mark Brader declaims a basic scientific principle > I first started hearing "Oh, snap!" on a recurring basis, meaning "I'm > unpleasantly surprised by this turn of events", from the character of > Joy (Jamie Pressley) on "My Name Is Earl", quite a few years after > "In Living Color"....r Some four years ago, I started a thread about this. Apparently, my first exposure was the animated show, "The Boondocks". Brian SignatureDay 402 of the "no grouchy usenet posts" project I'm sure someone remembers the details; this info is from a very foggy > memory. About 20 years ago, there was a TV comedy show in which two > black Winan (sp?) brothers performed sketches. One of them (tall, > shaved head) played a campy, witty, sassy-talking gay character who > repeatedly used "Oh, snap!" or a similar exclamation with "snap" while > snapping his fingers. That's the only time I've ever heard it. In Living Color, and I think that was Damon Wayans. But the phrase predates the show (which is obvious since they intensified it to absurd lengths in ways like, "two snaps and a circle"). SignatureI WILL NOT SQUEAK CHALK Bart chalkboard Ep. 8F04 I AM NOT HERE ON A FARTBALL SCHOLARSHIP Bart chalkboard Ep. BABF16 >>>> I want a general almost all-purpose exclamation. >>> From what I can tell, "Oh, snap!" seems to fit the bill nowadays. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I've only ever heard Hugh Laurie say it, and then only as an American > character. And he probably meant to say "Oh, Schmidt". SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. >>Evan Kirshenbaum filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > character called Jimminy Cricket. (But Jesus Christ, don't tell them > what they are doing!)] The problem with that reasoning is that "Gemini" is cited about 200 years earler than "Jiminy Cricket" and 250 years earlier than "Jiminy Christmas", so it doesn't make sense to reason from "Jimini Cricket" and claim that the explanation of "Gemini" is "after the fact". It seems more likely that someone decided incorrectly that "Jiminy" was a minced oath and added "Cricket" and (later, not earlier) "Christmas". >>>> What about "by Jove"? >>> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > sailors, perhaps by Basque mercenaries used by Edward I (reigned > 1272-1307) in his wars against the Welsh, The OED says Such an origin is not impossible, but is as yet unsupported by evidence. They say Appears first c1670 as a piece of conjuror's gibberish, usually hey or high jingo!, prob. a mere piece of sonorous nonsense with an appearance of mysterious meaning. > but the first OED attestation > is not till 1694, when Motteux used it to translate Fr. par Dieu in [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > fight, yet, by Jingo! if we do/We've got the ships, we've got the men > and got the money, too! "] SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Never attempt to teach a pig to 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |sing; it wastes your time and Palo Alto, CA 94304 |annoys the pig. | Robert Heinlein kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ <snip> >When did "By Jingo" come along?...obviously before 1920: > > http://turtleservices.com/OhByJingoOhByGee.htm "Gee" is mentioned on that poster, yet another reference to Jesus, according to my grandmother. My mother rarely said it, I was told, in her mother's presence. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >When did "By Jingo" come along?...obviously before 1920: According to this site, 1878 http://www.cyberussr.com/hcunn/q-jingo.html SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk <snip> >> What about "by Jove"? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >pre-Christian Roman texts. The OED cites "Jove" to ca. 1374 and "By >Jove" to 1575. It is only by coincidence, then, that Jupiter, Jove and Jesus start with the same letter, "By Mars", for example, not being a common oath? SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > with the same letter, "By Mars", for example, not being a common > oath? "Jesus" is the odd one out there. "Jove" and "Jupiter" share a common origin, "Jupiter" apparently having come from "Father Jove". Jesus was named after Joshua, whose name comes from "YHWH saves". (His original name was simply "Hosea" ("Salvation").) SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Never ascribe to malice that which 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |can adequately be explained by Palo Alto, CA 94304 |stupidity. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Now where did I read that the name was originally Yehoshua, that Yoshua is the earlier Hebrew shortening and Yeshua the later Aramaic shortening? Was it a good source? > <snip> >>> What about "by Jove"? >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >>pre-Christian Roman texts. The OED cites "Jove" to ca. 1374 and "By >>Jove" to 1575. > It is only by coincidence, then, that Jupiter, Jove and Jesus start > with the same letter, Yes. Although it is possible (though completely unprovable) that it has endured for this reason. > "By Mars", for example, not being a common oath? No, Romans swore their oaths to Jupiter. Signature'There's Mr Dibbler.' 'What's he selling this time?' 'I don't think he's trying to sell anything, Mr Poons.' 'It's that bad? Then we're probably in lots of trouble.' --Reaper Man "The prize is the more I drink the blurrier you get" >> <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > No, Romans swore their oaths to Jupiter. Mehercle! SignatureJames >>> <snip> >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Mehercle! Leroy. 'mehercle' was the highlight of Latin O level for me. For Mrs Dean it was 'ecastor'. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford >>>> <snip> >>>>>> What about "by Jove"? [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Leroy. 'mehercle' was the highlight of Latin O level for me. For Mrs Dean it > was 'ecastor'. Pollux! SignatureJames >>>>> <snip> >>>>>>> What about "by Jove"? [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >Pollux! Which instantly reminds me of an item in today's Times (of London). http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/columnists/article7058900.ece Kirin wrong-footed by Colonel Bogey march Japanese brewer Kirin has launched a new advertising campaign to encourage Japanese youth to drink beer. It features the usual young lady in a kimono, foaming pitcher, etc. But don't expect it to air over here too soon. The background music chosen for the advert is the Colonel Bogey march, which Western viewers will associate with the film of one of the darker episodes in recent Japanese history — the Bridge over the River Kwai. When this is pointed out, Kirin stutters that the music was meant to be "cheerful and uplifting". It is, it is! Cheerful and uplifting, that is. http://www.ulujain.org/media/colonelbogeymarch.mid However, rude words are frequently sung to the tune commencing: "Bollocks!". See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonel_Bogey_March The "Colonel Bogey March" is a popular march that was written in 1914 by Lieutenant F. J. Ricketts (1881–1945), a British military bandmaster who was director of music for the Royal Marines at Plymouth. .... The sheet music was a million-seller, and the march was recorded many times. "Colonel Bogey" is the authorized march of The King's Own Calgary Regiment (RCAC) of the Canadian Forces. Many humorous or satirical verses have been sung to this tune; some of them vulgar. The English quickly established a simple insulting use for the tune, where the first two syllables were used for a variety of rude expressions, most commonly "Bollocks", then followed by "...and the same to you." The best known, which originated in England at the outset of World War II, goes by the title "Hitler Has Only Got One Ball". This page gives various versions and then goes into a serious discussion of the possible monorchicity of Hitler: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler_Has_Only_Got_One_Ball SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.english.usage) >This page gives various versions and then goes into a serious discussion >of the possible monorchicity of Hitler: Oh, I thought those *were* the words. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > On Fri, 12 Mar 2010 15:32:17 +0000, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Oh, I thought those *were* the words. The /real/ words begin "Comet--it makes your teeth turn green." -- Jerry Friedman >> On Fri, 12 Mar 2010 15:32:17 +0000, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> >> Oh, I thought those *were* the words. > The /real/ words begin "Comet--it makes your teeth turn green." Aye, those are the words we sang when I was but a lad, and ar ethe words I tought my own children. SignatureCan I tell you the truth? I mean this isn't like TV news, is it? >>>>> <snip> >>>>>>> What about "by Jove"? [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Pollux! There's no need to get personal. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford >> <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >No, Romans swore their oaths to Jupiter. Didn't Perry White reference Jupiter? The publisher of the Daily Planet, in Metropolis. SignaturePosters should say where they live, and for which area they are asking questions. I was born and then lived in Western Pa. 10 years Indianapolis 7 years Chicago 6 years Brooklyn, NY 12 years Baltimore 26 years mm filted: >Didn't Perry White reference Jupiter? The publisher of the Daily >Planet, in Metropolis. No, his catchphrase was "Great Caesar's ghost!"...I think there was once a storyline in which someone actually brought Caesar's ghost back to life and Perry interacted with him; you might be remembering him talking to someone in a toga....r Signature"Oy! A cat made of lead cannot fly." - Mark Brader declaims a basic scientific principle > Didn't Perry White reference Jupiter? The publisher of the Daily > Planet, in Metropolis. "Great Caesar's Ghost", IIRC. SignatureHe [Carrot] could lead armies, Angua thought. He really could. Some people have inspired whole countries to great deeds because of the power of their vision. And so could he. Not because he dreams about marching hordes, or world domination, or an empire of a thousand years. Just because he thinks that everyone's really decent underneath and would get along just fine if only they made an effort, and he believes that strongly it burns like a flame that is bigger than he is. --Men at Arms if you ever get that chimp of your back, if you ever find the thing you lack, ah but you know you're only having a laugh. Oh, oh here we go again -- until the end. > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > It is only by coincidence, then, that Jupiter, Jove and Jesus start > with the same letter, "By Mars", for example, not being a common oath? Only coincidence in English. In the original versions they didn't have 'j', it not having been invented yet. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford >> <snip> >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Only coincidence in English. In the original versions they didn't have 'j', > it not having been invented yet. They probably invented the J just so they could swear properly. SignatureRob Bannister [...] What about "by Jove"? > That one appears to have always been a reference to Jove (i.e., > Jupiter, which etymologically came from "Jovis-pater") rather than a > minced oath for a Christian deity. I'd assume based on such use in > pre-Christian Roman texts. The OED cites "Jove" to ca. 1374 and "By > Jove" to 1575. Puritan influence seems to have popularised expressions using "Jove". We find the name used in Shakespeare, for example, in cases where the character was clearly referring to the Christian view of God. SignatureMike. On Mar 12, 2:36 pm, "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote: > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > find the name used in Shakespeare, for example, in cases where the > character was clearly referring to the Christian view of God. Specifically, I think that during at least part of Shakespeare's career, the law banned taking the Lord's name in vain on stage. -- Jerry Friedman > On Mar 12, 2:36 pm, "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Specifically, I think that during at least part of Shakespeare's > career, the law banned taking the Lord's name in vain on stage. Ah, thanks. I thought so, but wasn't completely certain, and CBA to go to another room and look it up. SignatureMike. On Mar 13, 3:01 pm, "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote: > > On Mar 12, 2:36 pm, "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> > > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Ah, thanks. I thought so, but wasn't completely certain, and CBA to go > to another room and look it up. I didn't look it up either, and I didn't get it quite right. "An /Act to Restraine Abuses of Players/ (1606--Chambers, /Elizabethan Stage/, IV, 338) prohibited certain oaths on stage. Hence some changes in the later texts of plays existing in early quartos (Chambers, /Wm Shakespeare/, I, 238 ff)." Frank Kermode, Arden edition of /The Tempest/, p. 6, note to I. i. 35-6, "A plague upon this howling", with a long dash after "plague" in the First Folio. The note compares V. i. 218-219, "Now, blasphemy,/ That swear'st grace overboard, not an oath on shore?" -- Jerry Friedman > >> > Did Walt Disney understand the meaning of "Jiminy Cricket"? > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Then why is Jiminy considered a minced oath instead of a mispronunciation of Gemini? I'm pretty sure the English use of Jove was mispronounced too (/dZov/ instead of /'jo ve/, yes?). > > >> > Did Walt Disney understand the meaning of "Jiminy Cricket"? > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > mispronunciation of Gemini? I'm pretty sure the English use of Jove > was mispronounced too (/dZov/ instead of /'jo ve/, yes?). English Jove rhymes with Hove, to brighten your day. I've forgotten exactly how Latin Iuppiter is declined, but the genitive is Iovis, so presumably Iove is the ablative form. It occurs to me that Iove and Yahweh can sound quite similar. One of those tempting coincidences that mean nothing, I suspect. -- franzi franzi wrote, in <91158f2c-f67f-4d5d-bc0a-cb00eb1c988c@b7g2000yqd.googlegroups.com> on Fri, 12 Mar 2010 15:41:44 -0800 (PST): > > > > What about "by Jove"? > > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > to me that Iove and Yahweh can sound quite similar. One of those > tempting coincidences that mean nothing, I suspect. According to Kennedy it goes: N. V. Iuppiter Acc. Iovem Gen. Iovis Dat. Iovi Abl. Iove except that he spells it with a J. SignatureNick Spalding BrE/IrE > franzi wrote, in > <91158f2c-f67f-4d5d-bc0a-cb00eb1c9...@b7g2000yqd.googlegroups.com> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > except that he spells it with a J. Of course I knew that really. I meant I'd forgotten the /plural/. For some reason your last remark reminds me of Alice's word-game: I love my love with a J, because he (or she) is... jovial? -- franzi franzi wrote, in <2286f03f-7088-4ba7-8002-b817724c940d@c16g2000yqd.googlegroups.com> on Sat, 13 Mar 2010 14:22:46 -0800 (PST): > > franzi wrote, in > > <91158f2c-f67f-4d5d-bc0a-cb00eb1c9...@b7g2000yqd.googlegroups.com> [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > Of course I knew that really. I meant I'd forgotten the /plural/. According to Kennedy he ain't got no plural. He is in a sub-subgroup of exceptional forms of the Third Declension along with bos, the latter having a plural specified. > For some reason your last remark reminds me of Alice's word-game: I > love my love with a J, because he (or she) is... jovial? SignatureNick Spalding BrE/IrE > franzi wrote, in > <2286f03f-7088-4ba7-8002-b817724c9...@c16g2000yqd.googlegroups.com> [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > exceptional forms of the Third Declension along with bos, the latter > having a plural specified. Danae couldn't decline Jupiter (Zeus) when he was plural and behaving like an absolute shower. Europa declined him unsuccessfully when he was a singular bos. -- franzi [swear by it] >>>> N. V. Iuppiter >>>> Acc. Iovem [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > behaving like an absolute shower. Europa declined him > unsuccessfully when he was a singular bos. Which yet constituted a dilemma. Let us hope she did not fall; but if she fell, let us hope that it was between two stools. [swear by it] >>>> N. V. Iuppiter >>>> Acc. Iovem [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > behaving like an absolute shower. Europa declined him > unsuccessfully when he was a singular bos. Which yet constituted a dilemma. Let us hope she did not fall; but if she fell, let us hope that it was between two stools. [Jesus wept!] >> I knew "criminy" was a probably corruption of "Christ", but "for >> crying out loud" had never occurred to me as being in the same >> boat. >> > Did Walt Disney understand the meaning of "Jiminy Cricket"? Maybe not Walt. Somebody may have noticed that he had died for Pinocchio's sins. Reading from news:alt.english.usage, annily <annily@annily.invalid> posted: > I knew "criminy" was a probably corruption of "Christ", but "for crying > out loud" had never occurred to me as being in the same boat. Me neither. And I've used "for crying out loud" simply because I hear everyone else say it. I never knew its connection to Christ. As for "criminy", I just assumed it was a contraction and slight rearrangement of "Jiminy Cricket". I wonder about someone who knows the "for crying out loud" connection to Christ. Does he hear someone say "for crying out loud" and automatically assume the person using the utterance is scared to say "Jesus Christ"? Damaeus > Reading from news:alt.english.usage, > annily <annily@annily.invalid> posted: >> I knew "criminy" was a probably corruption of "Christ", but "for crying >> out loud" had never occurred to me as being in the same boat. > Me neither. And I've used "for crying out loud" simply because I hear > everyone else say it. I never knew its connection to Christ. As for > "criminy", I just assumed it was a contraction and slight rearrangement of > "Jiminy Cricket". > I wonder about someone who knows the "for crying out loud" connection to > Christ. Does he hear someone say "for crying out loud" and automatically > assume the person using the utterance is scared to say "Jesus Christ"? I think very few people know that any of these phrases were attempts to evade the second commandment or the anti-blasphmemy laws. Although I did met an overly religious couple in my youth who considered just about any word starting with a hard G to be a curse. I remember being admonished for Geez, Gosh, and Golly. Thankfully, I wasn't around them for any length of time. But nowadays? Outside of word-geeks? Hard pressed, I think. SignatureSam, I thought I told you never to play-- The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese. > In message <ltmip5dhptlshtp609rtl2i3u9llfm2...@4ax.com> > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > But nowadays? Outside of word-geeks? Hard pressed, I think. I sometimes hear "Oh my gosh" in circumstances where it sounds to me like a deliberate euphemism. I agree with you about "Jiminy Cricket" and probably "for crying out loud". Actually, I'll bet the majority of Americans don't know "Jiminy Cricket" except as a cartoon character. -- Jerry Friedman > In message <ltmip5dhptlshtp609rtl2i3u9llfm2...@4ax.com> > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > being admonished for Geez, Gosh, and Golly. Thankfully, I wasn't around > them for any length of time. Does "Geez" begin with a hard G for you? (I'm not insinuating that it does, merely curious given the context) > Does "Geez" begin with a hard G for you? Thinko. I meant a soft g, like in Jeebus. SignatureAccording to the philosopher Ly Tin Weedle, chaos is found in greatest abundance wherever order is being sought. It always defeats order, because it is better organized. --Interesting Times The ability to ask question like 'Where am I and who is the "I" that is asking?' is one of the things that distinguishes mankind from, say, cuttlefish. --The Last Continent >Does "Geez" begin with a hard G for you? If it's referring to what a geezer does. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > Although I did met an overly religious couple in my youth who > considered just about any word starting with a hard G to be a curse. > I remember being admonished for Geez, Gosh, and Golly. Thankfully, I > wasn't around them for any length of time. As a kid, I read a story where a character said, "Consarnit, golblammit." His sister was shocked at his cursing. It was unclear whether those were supposed to be euphemisms for what what he actually said (it was book for younger readers) or if she was shocked that he said those specific words. Either way it seemed silly to me at the time. Brian SignatureDay 402 of the "no grouchy usenet posts" project Default User filted: >As a kid, I read a story where a character said, "Consarnit, >golblammit." His sister was shocked at his cursing. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >shocked that he said those specific words. Either way it seemed silly >to me at the time. A few datapoints: Norman Mailer was compelled by his publisher to replace a popular epithet with "fug" throughout "The Naked and the Dead"...when introduced to Dorothy Parker, she reportedly chided him with "So, you're the young man who can't spell 'f.ck'." Bill Cosby, a model of vocabularic decorum, has occasionally found it necessary in his act to portray some character swearing...his preferred method is to replace the profanity with muttered "filth-n-foul, n'foul-filth", leaning heavily on the F's to make the words sound harsher. DC Comics (for the character Lobo) and the writers of "Battlestar Galactica" independently invented the imaginary swear-word "frag"....r Signature"Oy! A cat made of lead cannot fly." - Mark Brader declaims a basic scientific principle > DC Comics (for the character Lobo) and the writers of "Battlestar > Galactica" independently invented the imaginary swear-word "frag"....r And of course Farscape's "frell". Brian SignatureDay 402 of the "no grouchy usenet posts" project > DC Comics (for the character Lobo) and the writers of "Battlestar Galactica" > independently invented the imaginary swear-word "frag"....r Don't know about the comic, but the Battlestar term is "frak". SignatureYou'd be crazy to e-mail me with the crazy. But leave the div alone. -- Whoever bans a book, shall be banished. Whoever burns a book, shall burn. > DC Comics (for the character Lobo) and the writers of "Battlestar Galactica" > independently invented the imaginary swear-word "frag"....r "Frag" is also used in Babylon 5, Shadowrun, Farscape, etc. It's a fairly standard sci-fi euphemism. I always associated it with the military slang "frag" (from fragmentation grenade), but I don't know if they're actually related etymologically. >> DC Comics (for the character Lobo) and the writers of "Battlestar Galactica" >> independently invented the imaginary swear-word "frag"....r > >"Frag" is also used in Babylon 5, Shadowrun, Farscape, etc. It's a >fairly standard sci-fi euphemism. "Frag" is close to "frig": http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/frig?view=uk verb (frigged, frigging) vulgar slang 1 have sexual intercourse with. 2 masturbate. ORIGIN originally in sense "move restlessly", later "rub, chafe": of unknown origin. >I always associated it with the military slang "frag" (from >fragmentation grenade), but I don't know if they're actually related >etymologically. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.english.usage) > Default User filted: > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > DC Comics (for the character Lobo) and the writers of "Battlestar Galactica" > independently invented the imaginary swear-word "frag"....r Her Royal Highness The Princess Royal (a bit too much royalty there, Shirley) was famously reported to have told photographers to 'Naff off' when under stress while taking an unexpected dip in an equitative (equitational?) water hazard. That's so not 'f.ck off' that it can't be anything else. -- franzi > Her Royal Highness The Princess Royal Not that I am by any means a Royalty watcher, but I did think I knew who the prominent members of the family were. However, I had no idea who HRH The Princess Royal is. I've seen it a lot recently; finally had to go look it up. When did she stop being called Princess Anne? Is Princess Margaret still called Princess Margaret, or has her name also been swallowed up into a morass of redundant royal titles? Signature"Rosa sat, so Martin could walk. Martin walked, so Obama could run. Obama ran, so our children can fly." (paraphrased from NPR) > In message > <eeb16948-4bf5-4f4f-a2be-4acaee9b4b69@e1g2000yqh.googlegroups.com> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > still called Princess Margaret, or has her name also been swallowed > up into a morass of redundant royal titles? Yes, she is still called Princess Margaret even though she died in 2002. SignatureRay UK >> Her Royal Highness The Princess Royal > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >When did she stop being called Princess Anne? She was upgraded: http://www.royal.gov.uk/ThecurrentRoyalFamily/ThePrincessRoyal/ThePrincessRoyal.aspx She received the title Princess Royal from The Queen in June 1987; she was previously known as Princess Anne. Her Royal Highness is the seventh holder of the title. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_Royal Princess Royal is a style customarily (but not automatically) awarded by a British monarch to his or her eldest daughter. The style is held for life, so a princess cannot be given the style during the lifetime of another Princess Royal. In particular, Queen Elizabeth II never held the title as her aunt, Princess Mary, was in possession of the title. The title Princess Royal came into existence when Queen Henrietta Maria (1609–1669), daughter of Henry IV, King of France, and wife of King Charles I (1600–1649), wanted to imitate the way the eldest daughter of the King of France was styled "Madame Royale." SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.english.usage) > Her Royal Highness The Princess Royal (a bit too much royalty there, > Shirley) was famously reported to have told photographers to 'Naff > off' when under stress while taking an unexpected dip in an equitative > (equitational?) water hazard. That's so not 'f.ck off' that it can't > be anything else. "Naff orf", innit. SignatureDavid > DC Comics (for the character Lobo) and the writers of "Battlestar Galactica" > independently invented the imaginary swear-word "frag"....r I believe the made-up word on BSG is 'frack'. On the much superior show Farscape the made-up curse was 'frell'. The DC 'frag' has entered the vernacular, but not as a substitute curse word. It is used in FPS (First Person Shooter) games to describe especially effective killing blows; the sort that actually cause the body to explode, for example. For some reason, in the MMORPG game World of Warcraft the word for bing killed by an oppossing player is 'gank' used in such phrases as "Lets [sic] go gank sum [sic] n00bs [sic]" or "Some rouge [sic] just ganked me." In the computer geek work, the unix system command fsck is often used as a substitute for f.ck, and some attempt to pronounce it is made in verbal conversation, usually coming out as 'fffssskkk' and 'ffffssskkking'. I doubt that the FPS use of 'frag' originated with DC comics, but I suppose it's possible. Signature'We'll all be killed.' 'Think of it as the lesser of two evils.' 'What's the other one?' Vimes drew his sword. 'Me.' --Jingo >> DC Comics (for the character Lobo) and the writers of "Battlestar >> Galactica" >> independently invented the imaginary swear-word "frag"....r > > I believe the made-up word on BSG is 'frack'. Don't you people read what I write? I already said that the BSG word is "frak", thus spelled, because it has to be 4-letter. Not "frack" - that one means "tuxedo" in a lot of European languages. SignatureYou'd be crazy to e-mail me with the crazy. But leave the div alone. -- Whoever bans a book, shall be banished. Whoever burns a book, shall burn. >>> DC Comics (for the character Lobo) and the writers of "Battlestar >>> Galactica" [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > word is "frak", thus spelled, because it has to be 4-letter. Not > "frack" - that one means "tuxedo" in a lot of European languages. I have seen that as frac, thus enabling me to identify it as a French slang word. >>>> DC Comics (for the character Lobo) and the writers of "Battlestar >>>> Galactica" [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I have seen that as frac, thus enabling me to identify it as a French > slang word. Which one of the two did you see? SignatureYou'd be crazy to e-mail me with the crazy. But leave the div alone. -- Whoever bans a book, shall be banished. Whoever burns a book, shall burn. >> R wrote: >>> DC Comics (for the character Lobo) and the writers of "Battlestar >>> Galactica" independently invented the imaginary swear-word [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > word is "frak", thus spelled, because it has to be 4-letter. Not > "frack" - that one means "tuxedo" in a lot of European languages. Frack was a Swiss skater. He was Frick's partner. SignatureSkitt (AmE) is old enough to have seen them skate >>> DC Comics (for the character Lobo) and the writers of "Battlestar >>> Galactica" >>> independently invented the imaginary swear-word "frag"....r >> >> I believe the made-up word on BSG is 'frack'. > Don't you people read what I write? I already said that the BSG > word is "frak", thus spelled, because it has to be 4-letter. Not "frack" > - that one means "tuxedo" in a lot of European languages. I don't recall ever seeing it spelled out on the show. And no, I do not read your posts downthread before replying to posts upthread. If you used a threaded newsreader you would see the post I replied to, but it is almost always the post that I quote. SignatureI AM NOT LICENSED TO DO ANYTHING Bart chalkboard Ep. 4F08 >>>> DC Comics (for the character Lobo) and the writers of "Battlestar >>>> Galactica" [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > I don't recall ever seeing it spelled out on the show. I don't think it /was/ spelled out on the show. But if you had watched with closed captioning or subtitles turned on, you would have seen it many times each episode. Spelled "frak". And, all sources spell it that way: http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Frak http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frak_%28expletive%29 > And no, I do not read your posts downthread before replying to posts > upthread. If you used a threaded newsreader you would see the post I > replied to, but it is almost always the post that I quote. I know what post you replied to, because it is the same post /I/ replied to, 8 hours earlier. Using a threaded reader myself, I make sure to read all replies to a post I want to reply to, to avoid giving the same answer as others. Some people have different priorities, I guess. SignatureYou'd be crazy to e-mail me with the crazy. But leave the div alone. -- Whoever bans a book, shall be banished. Whoever burns a book, shall burn. >>>>> DC Comics (for the character Lobo) and the writers of "Battlestar >>>>> Galactica" [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > seen it many times each episode. Spelled "frak". And, all sources spell > it that way: Who had closed captioming in 1978? --Jeff SignatureLove consists of overestimating the differences between one woman and another. --George Bernard Shaw >>> I don't recall ever seeing it spelled out on the show. >> I don't think it /was/ spelled out on the show. But if you had >> watched with closed captioning or subtitles turned on, you would have >> seen it many times each episode. Spelled "frak". And, all sources spell >> it that way: > Who had closed captioming in 1978? 1) Deaf people? 2) Wrong BSG series. <http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0407362/> SignatureClicked \"Debug\" button. Program still has bugs. Wtf? - Rich Seigel >>>>>> DC Comics (for the character Lobo) and the writers of "Battlestar >>>>>> Galactica" [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >Who had closed captioming in 1978? UK TV viewers with suitable TVs. The BBC introduced the Ceefax service in 1974. That included closed captions (AmE) / subtitles (BrE). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceefax http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/3681174.stm SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.english.usage) > Reading from news:alt.english.usage, > annily <annily@annily.invalid> posted: [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Damaeus Probably not. Just like all those little old women who exclaim "Sugar!" while "sh.t" wouldn't even cross their minds. SignatureRob Bannister >> annily <annily@annily.invalid> posted: >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Probably not. Just like all those little old women who exclaim > "Sugar!" while "sh.t" wouldn't even cross their minds. Not until they hit the windshield. >> Reading from news:alt.english.usage, >> annily <annily@annily.invalid> posted: [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >Probably not. Just like all those little old women who exclaim "Sugar!" >while "sh.t" wouldn't even cross their minds. Surely "Sugar!" is a polite form of "Oh BUGGER!"? SignatureIan > Probably not. Just like all those little old women who exclaim "Sugar!" > while "sh.t" wouldn't even cross their minds. In one of the Little House books, Ma chastized Pa for "wooden swearing," as I recall. SignatureSML > > Probably not. Just like all those little old women who exclaim "Sugar!" > > while "sh.t" wouldn't even cross their minds. > > In one of the Little House books, Ma chastized Pa for "wooden swearing," > as I recall. I found comments that that was in "Little Town on the Prairie," and I found it in my copy, p. 212. What's particularly interesting is that various results indicate that "wooden swearing" has two meanings. One is the minced oaths, but the other is slamming or banging things (doors, books...) out of frustration. That's what the Laura Ingalls Wilder quote is: As usual, Laura opened her history book. Suddenly she could not bear it all. She thrust back her chair, slammed her book shut and thumped it down on the table. Pa and Ma started, and looked at her in surprise. "I don't care!" she cried out. "I don't want to study! I don't want to learn! I don't want to teach school, ever!" Ma looked as stern as it was possible for her to look. "Laura," she said, "I know you would not swear, but losing your temper and slamming things is as bad as saying the words. Let us have no more wooden swearing." Wilder's daughter Rose Wilder Lane uses the term in a book of her own: Free Land - Page 4 Rose Wilder Lane - Fiction - 1984 - 332 pages The slam of the big dictionary amounted to wooden swearing. Alice looked round-eyed at David A Virginia woman wrote in a Web forum: When I'm mad, too, I either do wooden swearing ( slamming and banging, which isn't productive) or cleaning. And in a 1915 publication in Google Books: The Junior Parish- Page 113 Herbert W Lathe When he is around we hear some wooden swearing. He slams the doors, and stamps on the floor, and I have seen him kick the chairs. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux .. >>> I assume there is no doubt that "criminy" is a way of avoiding saying >>> "Christ".** [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >such prudishness smacks of almost Taliban-ness, and seems preposterous >from a natural, agnostic point of view. From an atheist point of view, certainly. Agnosticism implies uncertainty. If there is a creator, the Lord God, who is offended by such things it would be best not to "take the Lord's name in vain" (paraphrase of one of the Ten Commandments). The commandment: "You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name"[1] is higher in the list than that about not murdering people. It is not surprising therefore that some believers take it very seriously. It is a matter of personal (spiritual) health and safety. [1] http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+20%3A2-17&version=NIV Yours agnostically, Peter. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.english.usage) >>>> I assume there is no doubt that "criminy" is a way of avoiding saying >>>> "Christ".** [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >>loud". One could guess, I guess, about 'gee' and relatives, even though >>such prudishness smacks of almost Taliban-ness, and seems preposterous Wow. Taliban. That's pretty strong language, much stronger than applies imo. For Jews, we don't use G-d's name and some of his titles that have become equivalent to his name for pretty much the same reason that a person doesn't call his father Harry and his mother Betty just because those are their names. It's more respectful to call them Dad and Mom, or words that mean that. >>from a natural, agnostic point of view. >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >higher in the list than that about not murdering people. It is not >surprising therefore that some believers take it very seriously. Just for the record, for Jews that commandment prohibits taking oaths in vain, including taking an oath that something happened when it didn't, or taking an oath to do soething and not living up to it. >It is a matter of personal (spiritual) health and safety. > >[1] >http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+20%3A2-17&version=NIV > >Yours agnostically, Peter. SignaturePosters should say where they live, and for which area they are asking questions. I was born and then lived in Western Pa. 10 years Indianapolis 7 years Chicago 6 years Brooklyn, NY 12 years Baltimore 26 years >>>>> I assume there is no doubt that "criminy" is a way of avoiding saying >>>>> "Christ".** [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > Betty just because those are their names. It's more respectful to > call them Dad and Mom, or words that mean that. Oh, OK. I realize it sounds harsher than it was intended. The Taliban were, AFAIK, primarily very diligent/obsessive scholars, and got their bad rap only because they were applying their teachings in practice. Hence my observation, that avoiding mentioning gods' names was like Taliban in prudishness. Nothing more. But of course, not being a practicing religion anything, I had forgotten that that commandment is higher in the list than that about not murdering people. Wow. >> >from a natural, agnostic point of view. >>From an atheist point of view, certainly. Agnosticism implies >> uncertainty. If there is a creator, the Lord God, who is offended by >> such things it would be best not to "take the Lord's name in vain" >> (paraphrase of one of the Ten Commandments). That's one way of looking at it. I'm agnostic, as far as I don't know whether there's a creator of the universe or not. But as far as the possibility that there is a god like the one in the Bible, I'm firmly an atheist. Such a monster as depicted in that book simply cannot exist; if it does, I'd better be in Hades, than share a paradise with it. So, I have no compunction about mentioning its 'name', in vain or not. >> The commandment: "You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, >> for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name"[1] is [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> >> Yours agnostically, Peter. SignatureYou'd be crazy to e-mail me with the crazy. But leave the div alone. -- Whoever bans a book, shall be banished. Whoever burns a book, shall burn. > On Wed, 10 Mar 2010 11:58:51 +0000, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" > [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] > > - Show quoted text - See, Christians think the one about bearing false witness forbids perjury, but they expand it to all lying. Even forbidding telling a plain girl on her wedding day that she is beautiful. The one about taking the Name in vain forbids use of the Name except when seriously swearing an oath or taking a vow. BTW, OT curiosity, when did use of "ha Shem" begin, where, and by what group? I don't find it in the Jewish Encyclopedia, although there are several others, which seem to have slightly different grammar rules (one has "ha" after the noun).. > BTW, OT curiosity, when did use of "ha Shem" begin, where, and by what > group? I don't find it in the Jewish Encyclopedia, although there are > several others, which seem to have slightly different grammar rules > (one has "ha" after the noun).. It's obviously been a while. From an 1835 bible (commentary by Adam Clarke): As the Jews hold it impious to pronounce the name ... _Jehovah_, they always put either ... _Adonai_, Lord, or ... _ha-shem_, THE NAME, in the place of it. [Elipses in place of the Hebrew] SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |ActiveX is pretty harmless anyway. 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |It can't affect you unless you Palo Alto, CA 94304 |install Windows, and who would be |foolish enough to do that? kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | Peter Moylan (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ Evan wrote on Tue, 16 Mar 2010 09:02:19 -0700: >> BTW, OT curiosity, when did use of "ha Shem" begin, where, >> and by what group? I don't find it in the Jewish >> Encyclopedia, although there are several others, which seem >> to have slightly different grammar rules (one has "ha" after >> the noun).. > It's obviously been a while. From an 1835 bible (commentary > by Adam Clarke): > As the Jews hold it impious to pronounce the name ... > _Jehovah_, > they always put either ... _Adonai_, Lord, or ... > _ha-shem_, THE > NAME, in the place of it. [Elipses in place of the > Hebrew] You seem to have access to Jewish rules and I wonder if "Jehovah" is actually used? I thought Jehovah was a Christian modification of "Jahveh" or the four consonant combination YHWH (tetragrammiton ?). SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > Evan wrote on Tue, 16 Mar 2010 09:02:19 -0700: > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > actually used? I thought Jehovah was a Christian modification of > "Jahveh" or the four consonant combination YHWH (tetragrammiton ?). The OED says that it was the Masoretes who pointed the four consonants with the vowels of Adonai to give what became Jehovah. SignatureJames >> Evan wrote on Tue, 16 Mar 2010 09:02:19 -0700: >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >>> It's obviously been a while. From an 1835 bible (commentary >>> by Adam Clarke): And I see it in an 1825 edition of the same bible. >>> As the Jews hold it impious to pronounce the name ... >>> _Jehovah_, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> >> You seem to have access to Jewish rules Well, no more than any other Jewish boy. The bible I quoted from was a Christian one. >> and I wonder if "Jehovah" is actually used? I thought Jehovah was a >> Christian modification of "Jahveh" or the four consonant >> combination YHWH (tetragrammiton ?). > > The OED says that it was the Masoretes who pointed the four > consonants with the vowels of Adonai to give what became Jehovah. Exactly. The vowels were added to remind Jews to read it as "adonai", which is just "lord" (and appears itself in the bible). If observant Jews actually thought that that was the way the name was pronounced, then they wouldn't, 'cause nobody's allowed to do it. (Other than the high priest, who no longer exists, inside the little room in the temple, which no longer exists.) These days what you'll here is "Adonai", "HaShem", or "AdoShem" (a portmanteau of the two). Sometimes other substitutions. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Those who study history are doomed 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |to watch others repeat it. Palo Alto, CA 94304 kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > Totally fascinating! I had no idea some of these exclamations were > aborted mentionings of god. Especially 'criminy' and "For crying out > loud". One could guess, I guess, about 'gee' and relatives, even though > such prudishness smacks of almost Taliban-ness, and seems preposterous > from a natural, agnostic point of view. Believers are abjured not to take the Lord's name in vain, so they use these minced oaths. Even if you are not a believer, if you are, or think you might be, in the presence of believers, it is simple courtesy to comply with the commandment. SignatureJohn Varela >> Totally fascinating! I had no idea some of these exclamations >> were aborted mentionings of god. Especially 'criminy' and "For [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > or think you might be, in the presence of believers, it is simple > courtesy to comply with the commandment. And, for Christians, there's Matthew 5: 33Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 34But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: 35Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. 36Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. 37But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil. These minced oaths are in violation of that advice. I remember someone wondering why there were never any fights about attempts to exhibit the Sermon on the Mount in small-town courthouses. >> Totally fascinating! I had no idea some of these exclamations were >> aborted mentionings of god. Especially 'criminy' and "For crying out [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >or think you might be, in the presence of believers, it is simple >courtesy to comply with the commandment. I promise not to snicker while they pray, as long as they give me the right to occasionally pontificate -- oh so briefly -- on why believing is nonsensical. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>> Totally fascinating! I had no idea some of these exclamations were >>> aborted mentionings of god. Especially 'criminy' and "For crying out [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >right to occasionally pontificate -- oh so briefly -- on why believing >is nonsensical. Why would you want to do that, even briefly, to people who are your hosts, or think you are their friend? Would you imagine that if they are polite in return that that implies you were polite to ridicule their views? It doesn't imply that. SignaturePosters should say where they live, and for which area they are asking questions. I was born and then lived in Western Pa. 10 years Indianapolis 7 years Chicago 6 years Brooklyn, NY 12 years Baltimore 26 years >>> Totally fascinating! I had no idea some of these exclamations were >>> aborted mentionings of god. Especially 'criminy' and "For crying out [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >>or think you might be, in the presence of believers, it is simple >>courtesy to comply with the commandment. Bull. It is not my responsibility to change my behavior to suit their beliefs. No one would suggest the religious nutters should change their behavior as a courtesy to my atheism. They are perfectly able to pray in public, or even preach their frothing intolerance whislt shouting on street corners. I am perfectly within my rights to say "Jesus Christ" or even "Jesus f.cking Christ". > I promise not to snicker while they pray, as long as they give me the > right to occasionally pontificate -- oh so briefly -- on why believing > is nonsensical. You certainly have as much right to pointificate as they do. Signature'They say that whoever pays the piper calls the tune.' 'But, gentlemen,' said Mr Saveloy, 'whoever holds a knife to the piper's throat writes the symphony.' --Interesting Times "You see, in this world there's two kinds of people, my friend: Those with loaded guns and those who dig. You dig." >>>> Totally fascinating! I had no idea some of these >>>> exclamations were aborted mentionings of god. Especially [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > intolerance whislt shouting on street corners. I am perfectly within > my rights to say "Jesus Christ" or even "Jesus f.cking Christ". There's a difference between "not within your rights" and "simple courtesy". It is simple courtesy for them to not bring up their belief that you're going to Hell and to not go on about Jesus Christ or God when around others who don't appreciate it. And most of them manage most of the time. That some don't follow this (and that some aggressively refuse to) doesn't mean that it isn't rude and uncalled for in many situations. >> I promise not to snicker while they pray, as long as they give me >> the right to occasionally pontificate -- oh so briefly -- on why >> believing is nonsensical. > > You certainly have as much right to pointificate as they do. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |There are two types of people - 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |those who are one of the two types Palo Alto, CA 94304 |of people, and those who are not. | Leigh Blue Caldwell kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >I assume there is no doubt that "criminy" is a way of avoiding saying > "Christ".** > > What about "For crying out loud"? Is that the same thing?** Fucken A! is common. > >I assume there is no doubt that "criminy" is a way of avoiding saying > > "Christ".** > > > What about "For crying out loud"? Is that the same thing?** > > Fucken A! is common. In both senses, but are you connecting it with "for crying out loud"? I've certainly never known what the "A" is. And is "fucken" the past participle? There's a very well-known joke about Boston lurking here. -- Jerry Friedman >> >I assume there is no doubt that "criminy" is a way of avoiding >> >saying [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > loud"? > I've certainly never known what the "A" is. From "Forever and _aye_. I think. Another version of "cry": For cry eye (or maybe some would have spelled it "aye"). And then for criminy: criminently. > And is "fucken" the past participle? There's a very well-known joke > about Boston lurking here. > > -- > Jerry Friedman >>> >I assume there is no doubt that "criminy" is a way of avoiding >>> >saying [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >From "Forever and _aye_. I think. Then the A in "fuckin' A" would not be a long one, which it always has been when I've heard the expression. Or maybe we don't pronounce "aye" the same way; I say eye. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>>> >I assume there is no doubt that "criminy" is a way of avoiding >>>> >saying [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > "aye" > the same way; I say eye. I pronounce it both as "eye" and as "a(long a)" as in your and Jerry's "A"--probably because I leaned "aye" to rhyme with "day", and to be interchangeable with Forever and a day". <snip> >> Then the A in "fuckin' A" would not be a long one, which it always >> has [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >"A"--probably because I leaned "aye" to rhyme with "day", and to be >interchangeable with Forever and a day". Aye with day and you're from Pennsylvania? I'm flabbergasted, for I've been there many times. Lived there, even, but as a kid. I also don't understand how my lines from yesterday got rejiggered, above. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > I also don't understand how my lines from yesterday got rejiggered, > above. I don't see any jiggering in the lines. But I hasten to correct your misunderstanding as to my location. I am from your "flyover" region, Chuck, and completely understand your lack of knowledge about many usages in your native land. SignaturePat Durkin durkinpa at msn.com Wisconsin > And is "fucken" the past participle? There's a very well-known joke > about Boston lurking here. ROTFLMAO. Really! I had forgotten that joke until you mentioned it. SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. >>> I assume there is no doubt that "criminy" is a way of avoiding >>> saying "Christ".** [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > In both senses, but are you connecting it with "for crying out loud"? > I've certainly never known what the "A" is. I take it to be the marking between A plus and A minus. Jesse's F-Word says "unknown; perhaps taken from a phrase such as "you're f.cking A-number-one right!" " His earliest cite is Mailer's 'Naked & Dead' "You're fuggin ay" Though he also cites instances where "f.cking a" means bad rather than good. And I am indebted to Daryl Ponicsan for "Fuckin A well told aye I be go to hell in a forklift John Dittybag" SignatureJohn Dean Oxford >>>> I assume there is no doubt that "criminy" is a way of avoiding >>>> saying "Christ".** [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > than good. And I am indebted to Daryl Ponicsan for "Fuckin A well > told aye I be go to hell in a forklift John Dittybag" I've forgotten which of my friends or acquaintances said "Fucken-a-John-Tweed". Might have been a Canadian (Montreal) emigrant. Not closely related to "(You can) bet your fucken A (on that)"? SignatureFrank ess > >>> I assume there is no doubt that "criminy" is a way of avoiding > >>> saying "Christ".** [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > And I am indebted to Daryl Ponicsan for "Fuckin A well told aye I be go to > hell in a forklift John Dittybag" In my experience, "fuckin' A" is not a term of approbation, it just means something like "You've got that right!" or "That's correct." SignatureJohn Varela >> >>> I assume there is no doubt that "criminy" is a way of avoiding >> >>> saying "Christ".** [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >In my experience, "fuckin' A" is not a term of approbation, it just >means something like "You've got that right!" or "That's correct." How are those not terms of approbation, or approval as I call it? SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>>>>> I assume there is no doubt that "criminy" is a way of avoiding >>>>>> saying "Christ".** [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > How are those not terms of approbation, or approval as I call it? Fuckin A, Chuck SignatureJohn Dean Oxford >>means something like "You've got that right!" or "That's correct." > How are those not terms of approbation, or approval as I call it? I wouldn't say anybody approved of anything in an exchange like this: "That's f.cked up, man." "Fuckin' A it is." ¬R >>> means something like "You've got that right!" or "That's correct." >> How are those not terms of approbation, or approval as I call it? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > "That's f.cked up, man." > "Fuckin' A it is." Is the second speaker not approving the first speaker's discernment and judgement? SignatureJohn Dean Oxford >> I wouldn't say anybody approved of anything in an exchange like this: >> "That's f.cked up, man." >> "Fuckin' A it is." > Is the second speaker not approving the first speaker's discernment and > judgement? No. The "it is" says he didn't have to be told--"you know that I know that you know." He's deriding the first guy's statement of the obvious or complicity in the fuckup. ¬R >>> I wouldn't say anybody approved of anything in an exchange like >>> this: "That's f.cked up, man." [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > that you know." He's deriding the first guy's statement of the > obvious or complicity in the fuckup. He's actually *disapproving*? Oh 'complicity in the fuckup'? - how do you read that into the exchange? SignatureJohn Dean Oxford > 'complicity in the fuckup'? - how do you read that into the exchange? Who smelt it dealt it. ¬R >>>means something like "You've got that right!" or "That's correct." >> How are those not terms of approbation, or approval as I call it? > I wouldn't say anybody approved of anything in an exchange like this: > "That's f.cked up, man." > "Fuckin' A it is." The second person approves of the first's statement. SignatureI WILL NOT CALL THE PRINCIPAL "SPUD HEAD" Bart chalkboard Ep. 9F13 "Kill yourself and roll a rogue. We'll wait" > >>means something like "You've got that right!" or "That's correct." > > How are those not terms of approbation, or approval as I call it? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > "That's f.cked up, man." > "Fuckin' A it is." But, as you explained it, that's a special case. I often hear "That's f.cked up" as a term of approval, though probably less often than as a term of disapproval. People, at least young men, say it to approve of a funny insult, something enjoyably strange or disgusting, or the like. -- Jerry Friedman > >In my experience, "fuckin' A" is not a term of approbation, it just > >means something like "You've got that right!" or "That's correct." > > How are those not terms of approbation, or approval as I call it? Is agreement the same thing as approbation? I guess I gotta look that up: noun 1. approval; commendation. 2. official approval or sanction. 3. Obsolete. conclusive proof. I don't think they are synonyms. SignatureJohn Varela Reading from news:alt.english.usage, "Ray O'Hara" <raymond-ohara@hotmail.com> posted: > >I assume there is no doubt that "criminy" is a way of avoiding saying > > "Christ".** > > > > What about "For crying out loud"? Is that the same thing?** > > Fucken A! is common. It's always kind if irritated me the way people substitute "close substitutions" for outright cuss words: fudge instead of f.ck farck instead of f.ck freakin' instead of fuckin' shoot instead of sh.t To me, hearing the substitution is annoying. I'd rather just hear the cuss word, not because I get off on hearing them, but because hearing the substitution makes me feel like I'm trapped in a room full of kindergarten teachers. Damaeus >Reading from news:alt.english.usage, >"Ray O'Hara" <raymond-ohara@hotmail.com> posted: [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >To me, hearing the substitution is annoying. Yes, I'm glad you brought this up. Substitutions that call up images of the word avoided are just as vulgar, just as low-class, as the original terms. The idea of propriety is to not talk about certain topics, like excrement. The idea is to not call it to the minds of listeners who are presumed to not want to think about such things. And many people don't want to think about such things. However, so far I have exceptions. For me, some words like shoot and shucks, which I heard for 10 or 15 years as a child without ever hearing any other word or knowing that there was any word for which they were substitions, don't call up images of any other word, and even since I've known about the relationship, I still don't think they call up images in other people. > I'd rather just hear the >cuss word, not because I get off on hearing them, but because hearing the >substitution makes me feel like I'm trapped in a room full of kindergarten >teachers. > >Damaeus SignaturePosters should say where they live, and for which area they are asking questions. I was born and then lived in Western Pa. 10 years Indianapolis 7 years Chicago 6 years Brooklyn, NY 12 years Baltimore 26 years > It's always kind if irritated me the way people substitute "close > substitutions" for outright cuss words: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > substitution makes me feel like I'm trapped in a room full of kindergarten > teachers. f.ck'n' A. SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. > **These are English usage questions. Someone off-topic maybe is the > reason. I have always thought it is out of respect for Jesus that > people avoid using his name, etc. lightly. Am I right? Respect, fear of prosecution. PoTAYto, PoTAHto. SignatureNON-FLAMMABLE IS NOT A CHALLENGE Bart chalkboard Ep. BABF13 A BURP IS NOT AN ANSWER Bart chalkboard Ep. 9F07 |
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