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Discussion Groups / English Usage / May 20101/namesake
I am my uncle's namesake. I was named after him a couple years after he died in the South Pacific in World War II. But what is my uncle to me?  SignaturePosters should say where they live, and for which area they are asking questions. I was born and then lived in Western Pa. 10 years Indianapolis 7 years Chicago 6 years Brooklyn, NY 12 years Baltimore 26 years >I am my uncle's namesake. I was named after him a couple years after > he died in the South Pacific in World War II. > > But what is my uncle to me? I think that he could be said to be your namesake too. > >I am my uncle's namesake. I was named after him a couple years after > > he died in the South Pacific in World War II. > > > But what is my uncle to me? > > I think that he could be said to be your namesake too. I don't. He's the uncle the poster is named for. >> But what is my uncle to me? > I think that he could be said to be your namesake too. That seems like the main meaning of the word to me, especially when talking about things named for people, and doubly especially when more than one thing (or person) is named after the same person (or thing). I'd say that George Washington was the namesake of Washington, D.C., for instance, that George Foreman was the namesake of his own sons, and that Ytterby was the namesake of four elements, not vice versa. ¬R >>> But what is my uncle to me? >> I think that he could be said to be your namesake too. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >¬R That thought occurred to me, but I figured I wanted your opinions, regardless of what the dictionary said. Now I feel I must check the dictionary. dictionary.com noun 1. a person named after another. 2. a person having the same name as another. namesake 1646, "person named for the sake of someone" is probably originally (for the) name's sake. n. One that is named after another. [From the phrase for the name's sake.] M-W one that has the same name as another; especially one who is named after another or for whom another is named I wonder if the second half of 2 above and the first and third parts of m-w above are really correct, or just what people have ended up saying, and I still wonder if there is another word or my uncle's relatinoship to me. SignaturePosters should say where they live, and for which area they are asking questions. I was born and then lived in Western Pa. 10 years Indianapolis 7 years Chicago 6 years Brooklyn, NY 12 years Baltimore 26 years >>>> But what is my uncle to me? >>> I think that he could be said to be your namesake too. [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > saying, and I still wonder if there is another word or my uncle's > relatinoship to me. Interestingly, in Bulgarian there's no word for a relationship where one is named after another. (There is, of course, the official 'godparent', that implies that the child is named after the godparent, but it is not the same, as it necessarily involves christening.) However, there are at least two different words expressing the idea you are looking for - that two people have the same name. One is "co-namenik" (I'm translating the constituents, but leaving the -nik suffix unchanged), and another one is of Turkish origin - "adash". So, I could very easily say in Bulgarian that I and my friend have the same name - we are adashes - but if I wanted to say that I'm named after my grandfather, without him being my godfather, I'd have to say it in full; there's no single word like "namesake". More useless trivia - Bulgarian has the words (half-translated again) "namenik", which is a person who has a nameday that same day, and "birthnik", which is a person who has a birthday. Needless to say, co-nameniks share their nameday, and can't go to each others' nameday parties. SignatureYou'd be crazy to e-mail me with the crazy. But leave the div alone. -- Whoever bans a book, shall be banished. Whoever burns a book, shall burn. >>>> But what is my uncle to me? >>> I think that he could be said to be your namesake too. [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > saying, and I still wonder if there is another word or my uncle's > relatinoship to me. He was the uncle you were named after - you are namesakes. He is the source of your name (namesource?), what else could he be? >I am my uncle's namesake. I was named after him a couple years after > he died in the South Pacific in World War II. > > But what is my uncle to me? He's your uncle. >> But what is my uncle to me? >He's your uncle. I think you meant: Bob. ¬R YOU'RE WRONG AND I VOTE http://users.bestweb.net/~notr >I am my uncle's namesake. I was named after him a couple years after >he died in the South Pacific in World War II. > >But what is my uncle to me? Your mother's or father's brother. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>I am my uncle's namesake. I was named after him a couple years after >>he died in the South Pacific in World War II. >> >>But what is my uncle to me? > > Your mother's or father's brother. Unless he's the husband of his mother or father's sister. >>>I am my uncle's namesake. I was named after him a couple years after >>>he died in the South Pacific in World War II. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Unless he's the husband of his mother or father's sister. That would be an "uncle-by-marriage", if anything. Not that we observe this in our family. We tend to refer to all relatives that are not father, mother, sister or brother as "uncle" or "aunt" if they are older than we are. No one is "cousin", let alone one so-many times removed. Some close family friends are "uncle" or "aunt". SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>>>I am my uncle's namesake. I was named after him a couple years after >>>>he died in the South Pacific in World War II. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> > That would be an "uncle-by-marriage", if anything. Technically, yes, but I have never heard anyone use that term to refer to that relationship. He's just called an uncle. Bill in Kentucky >>>>>I am my uncle's namesake. I was named after him a couple years after >>>>>he died in the South Pacific in World War II. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Technically, yes, but I have never heard anyone use that term to refer to >that relationship. He's just called an uncle. As I said, I would call my father's sister's husband "Uncle Pat", but he is not actually my uncle. What we call people, and what they are, are two different things. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>>>>>I am my uncle's namesake. I was named after him a couple years after >>>>>>he died in the South Pacific in World War II. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > he is not actually my uncle. What we call people, and what they are, > are two different things. Why is he not 'actually' your uncle? He'd certainly be your uncle in England - your father's sister is your aunt, and her husband is your uncle. >>>>>>>I am my uncle's namesake. I was named after him a couple years after >>>>>>>he died in the South Pacific in World War II. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >Why is he not 'actually' your uncle? He'd certainly be your uncle in >England - your father's sister is your aunt, and her husband is your uncle. OK, if he goes to England he can be my uncle, but once he returns to the US he'll be related to me by marriage but not by blood. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>>>>>>> I am my uncle's namesake. I was named after him a couple years after >>>>>>>> he died in the South Pacific in World War II. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > OK, if he goes to England he can be my uncle, but once he returns to > the US he'll be related to me by marriage but not by blood. It seems this is your personal opinion, not supported by any but you. In all languages and cultures I know, the husbands and wifes of aunts and uncles are considered uncles and aunts. Even though they may have specific terms for each, depending on the precise relationship, they are all considered to belong to the general uncle/aunt category. Frex in Bulgarian, the specific terms are: Father's brother - "chicho" - this is the generic "uncle". Father's sister - "lelya" - this is the generic "aunt". Mother's sister - "lelya". Mother's brother - "vuycho" - as you see, different word. Mother's brother's wife - "vuyna" - but still considered aunt. Father's brother's wife - "strinka" - but still considered aunt. Father's sister's husband - "chicho" - even the term is the generic one. Mother's sister's husband - "chicho", also "svako". SignatureYou'd be crazy to e-mail me with the crazy. But leave the div alone. -- Whoever bans a book, shall be banished. Whoever burns a book, shall burn. >>>>>>>>> I am my uncle's namesake. I was named after him a couple years after >>>>>>>>> he died in the South Pacific in World War II. [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >Father's sister's husband - "chicho" - even the term is the generic one. >Mother's sister's husband - "chicho", also "svako". And do you have terms for the person who was once married to your father's brother (and the rest of combinations) but is no longer married to them? Is your father's brother's ex-wife your aunt? SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida On 29 May 2010, tony cooper wrote -snip- > And do you have terms for the person who was once married to your > father's brother (and the rest of combinations) but is no longer > married to them? Is your father's brother's ex-wife your aunt? She used to be your aunt; now she's not -- she's your uncle's ex-wife, and his new wife is now your aunt. I honestly don't see the conceptual/terminological problem here. SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed >>>>>>>> I am my uncle's namesake. I was named after him a couple >>>>>>>> years after he died in the South Pacific in World War II. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > OK, if he goes to England he can be my uncle, but once he returns to > the US he'll be related to me by marriage but not by blood. So not the bloody uncle then. SignatureRay UK >>>>>>>>I am my uncle's namesake. I was named after him a couple years >>>>>>>>after [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > OK, if he goes to England he can be my uncle, but once he returns to > the US he'll be related to me by marriage but not by blood. It doesn't matter if he's related to you by blood or not, he's still your uncle if he is married to your aunt. Sometimes when you get yourself into a hole it's a good idea to stop digging. >>>>>>>>>I am my uncle's namesake. I was named after him a couple years >>>>>>>>>after [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >uncle if he is married to your aunt. Sometimes when you get yourself into a >hole it's a good idea to stop digging. That "if" is what I don't like. If he's not still married to my aunt, is he my ex-uncle? Former uncle? He was my uncle? The blood-related uncles are forever. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>>>>>>>>>I am my uncle's namesake. I was named after him a couple years >>>>>>>>>>after [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > That "if" is what I don't like. If he's not still married to my aunt, > is he my ex-uncle? Former uncle? Either of those describes the situation well. If he's your aunt's ex-husband, it seems to me that he is your ex-uncle. > He was my uncle? True. That also works. > The blood-related uncles are forever. Also true, but doesn't affect your relationship with your aunt's husband. We could have had different terms for the two relationships in English and I don't disagree with your desire for different terms, but we don't have them. Note that some other relationship terms are also ambiguous. My sister-in-law can be my brother's wife or my wife's sister. My first cousin, once removed, can be my first cousin's child or my parent's first cousin. In either case, if we don't know which case is true, we have to ask or do some research to find out. Bill in Kentucky >>>>>>>>>>>I am my uncle's namesake. I was named after him a couple years >>>>>>>>>>>after [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] >I don't disagree with your desire for different terms, but we don't have >them. Let's be clear on the need for different terms. I will still speak of my father's sister's husband as my uncle. I will address him as Uncle Pat. Even if he leaves my father's sister, divorces her, and then re-marries I will think of him as Uncle Pat. However, if I am discussing family relationships I will categorize him as my uncle-by-marriage as opposed to an uncle by blood. By the way, if you are ever in Horse Cave KY - as I was last week - I can tell you where to get a slice of oatmeal pie. Very sweet, but good. If you want to swing up to Corydon IN there's a place that serves straw pie. The straw pie was too sweet for me, but I liked the coconut. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida > The blood-related uncles are forever. Forever is a long time. When your father's brother dies, is he still your uncle? Or is he your former uncle? SignatureJohn Varela >> The blood-related uncles are forever. > >Forever is a long time. When your father's brother dies, is he still >your uncle? Or is he your former uncle? My uncle, but - in this case - my late uncle. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>>>>>I am my uncle's namesake. I was named after him a couple years after >>>>>>he died in the South Pacific in World War II. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > he is not actually my uncle. What we call people, and what they are, > are two different things. The evidence doesn't agree with you, Tony. The definitions of "uncle" found by Google on the web, except for those unrelated to this topic, all cover your aunt's husband. I have added numbers to the three that are relevent. The two dictionaries I have close at hand, American Heritage and Queen's English, also agree. Definitions of uncle on the Web: 1. * the brother of your father or mother; the husband of your aunt * a source of help and advice and encouragement; "he played uncle to lonely students" wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn * Uncle (1964) is a children's novel written by J. P. Martin, the first of his Uncle series of six books. It was illustrated, like the others in the series, by Quentin Blake. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncle_(novel) 2. * Uncle (Latin avunculus "little grandfather," diminutive of avus "grandfather,") is a family relationship or kinship, the brother or brother-in-law of a parent. A woman with an equivalent relationship is an aunt, and the reciprocal relationship is that of a nephew or niece. ... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncle * U.N.C.L.E. is an acronym for the fictional United Network Command for Law and Enforcement, a secret international intelligence agency featured in ... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNCLE 3. * A brother or brother-in-law of someoneʼs parent; A source of advice, encouragement, or help; A pawnbroker; A close male friend of the parents of a family en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Uncle * One of the tabulation software packages used by Decision Analyst. www.decisionanalyst.com/Glossary/UGlossary.dai Bill in Kentucky >>>>>>>I am my uncle's namesake. I was named after him a couple years after >>>>>>>he died in the South Pacific in World War II. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >found by Google on the web, except for those unrelated to this topic, all >cover your aunt's husband. The problem with your definitions is that they cover only the present condition. My father's brother is my uncle. He will always be my uncle. My father's sister's husband will only be my uncle as long as he is married to my aunt. An uncle-by-marriage may be a temporary uncle. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>>>>>>>I am my uncle's namesake. I was named after him a couple years after >>>>>>>>he died in the South Pacific in World War II. [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >father's sister's husband will only be my uncle as long as he is >married to my aunt. An uncle-by-marriage may be a temporary uncle. It's probably best to keep them on your Chistmas card list, though. Where there's a will there may be a way to get rich eventually. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >My father's brother is my uncle. He will always be my uncle. Even after your stepfather adopts you and your birth father is no longer your father? This is not a hypothetical situation. This happened to my cousins when I was barely old enough to remember. My uncle's *next* ex-wife was far more welcome at family occasions than he was for several years. I'd never dream of saying she was no longer my aunt. ¬R The anti-suffragists will continue to be eligible, won't they? http://users.bestweb.net/~notr/engel.html --Ida Husted Harper >>My father's brother is my uncle. He will always be my uncle. > >Even after your stepfather adopts you and your birth father is no longer >your father? I don't see how what I said plays here. I'm not in that situation, but I would refer to my (birth) father as my "father" under any circumstances and my stepfather as my "stepfather". I don't see how a birth father can no longer be considered your father. In reference, anyway. Emotionally is a completely different issue. >This is not a hypothetical situation. This happened to my cousins when I >was barely old enough to remember. > >My uncle's *next* ex-wife was far more welcome at family occasions than >he was for several years. I'd never dream of saying she was no longer my >aunt. I hope you do read what I write and don't just skim to see what you can disagree with. I have said that what we call people and what their actual relationship is can be completely different things. You can call the woman your aunt if you want to. I would expect you to, and I'd do the same. Her actual relationship is/was aunt-by-marriage. In my family, we call certain cousins and family friends "aunt" and "uncle". There's an "uncle" in my family who, after he died, I found that he was not related to the family in any way. Not by blood and not by marriage. Due to some problems with his family, he grew up in the house of a family member of mine. I still refer to him as my uncle. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >but I would refer to my (birth) father as my "father" under any >circumstances and my stepfather as my "stepfather". If you did that after he had legally adopted you, you'd be likely to get some stern talkings-to from school counselors and the like (never mind your mother and adoptive father). >I hope you do read what I write and don't just skim to see what you >can disagree with. I have said that what we call people and what >their actual relationship is can be completely different things. You keep saying that, but what determines the "actual" meanings of the words "aunt" and "uncle," if not "what we call people"? I don't see anything you've written supporting the idea that "uncle" does not actually mean "parent's brother-in-law" except your own repeated assertion. When you set out to contradict OED, Collins, Merriam, American Heritage, Random House, and the practical experience of the people you're talking to all at once, it's good to provide some evidence of the usage from outside your own imagination. Meanwhile, if you want a less clinical specific term for an uncle by marriage, a quick Google search finds the dialect word "good-uncle" listed in Charles Campbell's 1905 dissertation "The names of relationship in English: A contribution to English semasiology" as attested by Joseph Wright in his English Dialect Dictionary. That dictionary's split into too many dozen volumes for me to be up to the task of using Google to trace the reference to find *what* dialect, though. ¬R Blood is worthless, outside its original container. http://users.bestweb.net/~notr/davidcar.html --Don Rauf >>but I would refer to my (birth) father as my "father" under any >>circumstances and my stepfather as my "stepfather". > >If you did that after he had legally adopted you, you'd be likely to get >some stern talkings-to from school counselors and the like (never mind >your mother and adoptive father). Nonsense. No school counselor is going to correct anyone's use of "father" to describe a person's biological father no matter what the current family conditions are. I can't imagine an adoptive father objecting to a child's use of "father" to describe a biological parent. Nor can I imagine a biological father objecting to a child referring to his/her adoptive father as "father". Either objection would indicate, to me, a disfunctional family or a helluva an ego problem. >>I hope you do read what I write and don't just skim to see what you >>can disagree with. I have said that what we call people and what >>their actual relationship is can be completely different things. > >You keep saying that, but what determines the "actual" meanings of the >words "aunt" and "uncle," if not "what we call people"? Not what we call people, that's for sure. I can call a family friend "Uncle Pat", but that doesn't make Pat my uncle. I can call my Uncle Pat, "Dad" if he assumed the role of my father after my father died, but that doesn't make him my father. (Examples only) >I don't see anything you've written supporting the idea that "uncle" does >not actually mean "parent's brother-in-law" except your own repeated >assertion. When you set out to contradict OED, Collins, Merriam, >American Heritage, Random House, and the practical experience of the >people you're talking to all at once, it's good to provide some evidence >of the usage from outside your own imagination. The dictionary provides limited definitions based on general usage. There are situations where the dictionary definition does not adequately describe the relationship. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>My father's brother is my uncle. He will always be my uncle. > > Even after your stepfather adopts you and your birth father is no longer > your father? Our son adopted his stepson, who has two fathers and has aunts in both families. Adoption may release the birth father from legal responsibility, but doesn't end his natural relationship or that of his siblings. Bill in Kentucky > Definitions of uncle on the Web: And the OED: 1. a. A brother of one's father or mother; also, an aunt's husband (= uncle-in-law). SignatureJohn Varela >I am my uncle's namesake. I was named after him a couple years after > he died in the South Pacific in World War II. > > But what is my uncle to me? Your foreskin. Gary Eickmeier |
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