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Discussion Groups / English Usage / September 20101 Medium Cappuccino
It came to pass that specialty coffees were made available at McDonald's restaurants. One of my favorites is cappuccino, a coffee made with espresso and steamed milk. It is one way of guaranteeing some sort of consistency in the quality and taste of the drink from McDonald's, as opposed to their variable regular coffee. So I ordered one. I quickly found that I couldn't just say "one medium cappuccino, please." I had to also answer several questions having to do with options for the drink. Would I like it made with whole milk or skim? Would I like the chocolate, vanilla, or caramel flavoring? Do I want sugar in it? "No, no, and no, I just want a standard, normal, regular cappuccino made with whole milk, no flavoring and no sugar." So they punch the button labelled "medium cappuccino" and it progresses to the front, where they make the drink. The person at the front usually understands perfectly the meaning of "medium cappuccino," and just makes the damn thing. So why can't I just say what I want and have them punch the button without the raft of questions? This is a problem in communication that fascinates me. Today, my wife, in an attempt to order for me and show me how it should be done to avoid all confusion, told them "One medium cappuccino, whole milk, no sugar and no flavoring." So they punched up a medium cappuccino and a milk. "No, we don't want a milk, we want a medium cappuccino. We want it made with the whole milk rather than the skim milk. We want no sugar and no flavoring." "So you want a medium cappuccino, a milk, a number 7 breakfast, and...." "No, we don't want a milk. We didn't order a milk. We want a medium cappuccino. In that medium cappuccino you will use the whole milk. You will add no sugar and no flavoring." I got a medium cappuccino with extra whole milk in it. The ticket said Medium cappuccino Ask Me Add extra whole milk and so on. I concluded that the best I can do to avoid confusion is to just say "one medium cappuccino" and wait for the questions. They think they need to ask all the questions because perhaps I forgot to mention the caramel flavoring or the skim milk. I don't know. All I know is, it is not possible to make a straightforward order at a fast food restaurant and have them copy you accurately. You can tell them straight out, in so many words, "A senior coffee with cream please" and they will ask you if you want sugar in it, or they will simply add the sugar without asking you. One time I ordered a cheeseburger and they asked if I wanted cheese on that. I'm not done yet. If you are getting bored, or if this is not resonating with your experiences, just delete me now and move on. Most of the time their crack sales people higher up in the McDonald's empire, in a brilliant attempt to sell me some product I probably haven't considered, have them say not "can I take your order please," but rather "Welcome to MacDonald's, would you like to try our Super Angusburger Double Whammy Whatsajigger?" or whatever the product of the day is. Now, if this were a normal English conversation they would expect an answer to the question before proceeding, right? So I say no, thank you, and wait for the real question. Nothing.... they are totally stumped. They have no opening question except what they were told to say, but they have already said it and it didn't work, so they don't know what to do. I am trying to see if they can think about what they have asked me and my answer and proceed to the question they should have asked me in the first place, which is what would I like to order, but they are just not able to do that. Maybe I'm just a born language prick, I don't know. When I go through the line at the supermarket and the packer asks me will plastic be all right, I say no. There is only one other way to pack my groceries, and that is paper, but they are usually stumped. So most of the time I say paper please to help them out, but the problem still fascinates me. Thank you for listening. Talk amongst yourselves. Gary Eickmeier > It came to pass that specialty coffees were made available at McDonald's > restaurants. One of my favorites is cappuccino, a coffee made with espresso [quoted text clipped - 74 lines] > > Gary Eickmeier Very good! I am in England and I am a fan of MacDonald's coffee because it is not outrageously priced as in the specialist coffee outlets. Since I usually ask for a latte there is no real problem. The problem I often get is not paying attention. Based on experience I have a standard rubrick when I go in some mornings: "To eat here I'll have a sausage and egg mcmuffin meal with a latte." "What drink do you want with that?" "A latte." "Eat in or take away?" "[Sigh] Eat in...." Very good! I am in England and I am a fan of MacDonald's coffee because it is not outrageously priced as in the specialist coffee outlets. Since I usually ask for a latte there is no real problem. The problem I often get is not paying attention. Based on experience I have a standard rubrick when I go in some mornings: "To eat here I'll have a sausage and egg mcmuffin meal with a latte." "What drink do you want with that?" "A latte." "Eat in or take away?" "[Sigh] Eat in...." Yes! That sounds very familiar! It's like they are preprogrammed for a certain script, and if you give them too much information at once it will not fly. Try telling them just enough each time for them to press the appropriate button, then continue. Don't bother saying "that will be all" or "eat in" before its time. My ultimate goal is to limit the amount of yip-yap it takes to order a simple meal. At our local Starbucks I have trained the staff on my standard item that I get in the drive-thru every morning. If I just say "Gary #1" they know precisely what I want, a Tall coffee with cream, and they just say Hi Gary, come on up to the window. What a pleasure. Gary Eickmeier >Very good! I am in England and I am a fan of MacDonald's coffee >because it is not outrageously priced as in the specialist coffee >outlets. Since I usually ask for a latte there is no real problem. Snip >Yes! That sounds very familiar! It's like they are preprogrammed for a >certain script, and if you give them too much information at once it will >not fly. Try telling them just enough each time for them to press the >appropriate button, then continue. Don't bother saying "that will be all" or >"eat in" before its time. In McD's or BK I order a hamburg with mustard only. They always repeat it as "with only mustard". For some reason, "mustard only" confuses them.  SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>Very good! I am in England and I am a fan of MacDonald's coffee >>because it is not outrageously priced as in the specialist coffee [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > repeat it as "with only mustard". For some reason, "mustard only" > confuses them. It's probably like how the Post Office does it, the clercks are told to ask some questions and offer services to each customer. It's tedious and annoys the clerk and the customer but the company has "secret shoppers" who show up and if they aren't asked the questions and offered the services the clerk is faulted. You might be trying for a streamlined visit but the Marketing Dept has other ideas. > It's probably like how the Post Office does it, the clercks are told to > ask some questions and offer services to each customer. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > You might be trying for a streamlined visit but the Marketing Dept has > other ideas. Yes, I know the clerks are required to ask the marketing question. But all I am doing is responding to it as if it were a sincere question and they wanted an answer. They should supply the people with a next question (if they are too dumb to think of it themselves) after the customer has responded to the opener. A possible analogy: When the phone rings, we pick it up and say "hello." This is the least we can say to tell the caller that there is a person at the other end waiting to hear who you are and why you are calling. In the office, you might say "Hello, welcome to Advantage Title, how may I help you?" The caller can then tell you what he wants. But what if you picked up the phone and said "Hello, would you like to talk to my sister? She is lovely and single." That reverses the normal phone etiquette which was meant to give the caller the opportunity to tell YOU what he wants, rather than answer a question from you that has nothing to do with it. Someone thinks it is great marketing, but it really is what we might call a violation of intercom etiquette. Maybe there is a better term for it, but that is the idea. I am just responding to it. Gary Eickmeier > Very good! I am in England and I am a fan of MacDonald's coffee > because it is not outrageously priced [...] > The problem I often get is not paying attention. Well, that's why you get to pay more at Caffe Nero. The staff serve you with apparently genuine interest ["And how has your day been?"], you sit in comfort, in pleasant lighting, for as long as you like, and when you go there's a cheery "'Bye, thanks! Have a nice evening!" from behind the counter. Yes, I know they're trained to do that, but it still works for me .... SignatureAndy Walker Nottingham > So I ordered one. I quickly found that I couldn't just say "one medium > cappuccino, please." I had to also answer several questions having to do > with options for the drink. Would I like it made with whole milk or skim? > Would I like the chocolate, vanilla, or caramel flavoring? Do I want sugar > in it? "No, no, and no, I just want a standard, normal, regular cappuccino > made with whole milk, no flavoring and no sugar." At Wendy's: Me: A single with everything except onion, pickle, and mustard. Wendy's: Do you want cheese on that? Me (after this had happened several times): As I understand English, I have already answered that. (It worked.) Wendy's: But lots of people ask for everything and don't want cheese. Me: Then they don't understand English. So now at Wendy's I have to say: A single with cheese, tomato, lettuce, mayonnaise*, and catsup. I'm waiting to be asked: Do you want that on a bun? Bill in Kentucky * I had that with one "n", but it didn't look right, so I typed it into my word processor. Among the suggested words was "metamorphoses" (which I may also have misspelled). I wonder what the algorithm is for making its recommendations. >> So I ordered one. I quickly found that I couldn't just say "one medium >> cappuccino, please." I had to also answer several questions having to do [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >So now at Wendy's I have to say: A single with cheese, tomato, lettuce, >mayonnaise*, and catsup. What's a "single"? I really would not like cheese in a cappuchino. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >>> So I ordered one. I quickly found that I couldn't just say "one medium >>> cappuccino, please." I had to also answer several questions having to do [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > I really would not like cheese in a cappuchino. Wendy's hamburger patties are supposedly each a quarter-pound. A Single has one beef patty, a Double has two, and a Triple has three. I assume that they would serve even more on a bun, but larger quantities aren't listed on the menu. Besides, "Quadruple" is harder to say than the other three. I really wouldn't want a pound of hamburger on a bun, but it would be interesting to see what reaction I would get if I ordered a Quadruple. I would bet on a blank stare or a "What?" On Marketing questions: I wonder how many people actually change their minds and order whatever it is that the salesperson asks about. Almost none, I suspect, so such questions serve little purpose beyond being an annoyance. If I really wanted a suggestion about what to order, I would ask for one. On "How may I help you?": It's another useless question. In almost any case, the person who answers the phone at a business is there to help the caller. Maybe a good response would be something like "Pay off my mortgage." Bill in Kentucky >>>Me: A single with everything except onion, pickle, and mustard. >>>Wendy's: Do you want cheese on that? >>>Me (after this had happened several times): As I understand English, I >>>have already answered that. (It worked.) Here's your single plus the entire rest of the universe. Sorry I couldn't put it all in one bag for you, but the bag was inside it. >>>Wendy's: But lots of people ask for everything and don't want cheese. More to the point, they want everything that's free. When Wendy's first opened in Poughkeepsie, they had a little sign explaining what "everything" included. My usual order was "a single with cheese, everything, add mustard." After a few months the sign disappeared, and sometime after that they started telling me that mustard was included in everything. Eventually they just made "everything" the normal order, so your usual would now be "a single with cheese, no pickle, no onion, no mustard." At Five Guys, at least in Kingston, they avoided this problem by calling the most usual large combination of toppings "the works" instead. > On Marketing questions: I wonder how many people actually change their > minds and order whatever it is that the salesperson asks about. Almost > none, I suspect, You must have a lot of awfully patient fast food customers down there. Around here, I'd say somewhere from 10% to 30% just give up and say yes. ¬R >>>>Me: A single with everything except onion, pickle, and mustard. >>>>Wendy's: Do you want cheese on that? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Here's your single plus the entire rest of the universe. Sorry I > couldn't put it all in one bag for you, but the bag was inside it. Well, everyone seems to agree that "everything" means "everything offered". Bill in Kentucky > There is only one other way to pack my groceries, and that is paper, > but they are usually stumped. There is also canvas, and "Throw it back in the cart loose." Sometimes "loose" takes some explaining, but I'm getting them trained. SignatureJoy Beeson joy beeson at comcast dot net >> There is only one other way to pack my groceries, and that is paper, >> but they are usually stumped. > > There is also canvas, and "Throw it back in the cart loose." > > Sometimes "loose" takes some explaining, but I'm getting them trained. You would do "loose"? Nobody does loose. But yes, there is the canvas bag if you brought one, but that would be obvious and eliminate the question in the first place. Sidebar for the Brits - in the U.S., they provide bags for the groceries at the checkout stand. Our biggest controversy is "paper or plastic." Paper bags probably cost a little more each, but they hold a hell of a lot more items. Plastic are cheap, but you can only get about three items in each one, and they are not biodegradable. A blight on the landfills. Anyway, my big point was instead of asking "Paper or plastic?" they sometimes ask "Will plastic be all right?" and I actually answer them with a no, and they are stumped what to do. Gary Eickmeier >>> There is only one other way to pack my groceries, and that is >>> paper, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > canvas bag if you brought one, but that would be obvious and > eliminate the question in the first place. Aldi's does "loose" as a standard. Customers bag their own or take the cart to the car and toss the stuff into the car loose, (or even bag it there) before returning the cart to get back the cart rental. > Sidebar for the Brits - in the U.S., they provide bags for the > groceries at the checkout stand. Our biggest controversy is "paper [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > sometimes ask "Will plastic be all right?" and I actually answer > them with a no, and they are stumped what to do. Oh, be kind, Gary. After dealing with customers like you all day, for the poor pay, how alert, flexible and careful would _you_ be? Can you imagine how these poor workers are going to deal with kids and spouse when they leave work? >> Anyway, my big point was instead of asking "Paper or plastic?" they >> sometimes ask "Will plastic be all right?" and I actually answer them [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > imagine how these poor workers are going to deal with kids and spouse when > they leave work? It isn't really that way at all. I was a packer and a cashier for 7 years of my young life, from age 15 to 22 or so. I enjoyed bantering with the customers, doing an efficient job of ringing up the orders and packing them perfectly. Not that much has changed after all these years, except now the bag boys are bag old men! But they are happy in their job, well paid, and they enjoy serving the customers as I did before them. Sometimes I wish I could teach a class on packing groceries in paper bags properly, but I won't bore you any further with THAT story. Gary Eickmeier > Aldi's does "loose" as a standard. Customers bag their own or take the > cart to the car and toss the stuff into the car loose, (or even bag it > there) before returning the cart to get back the cart rental. Cart rental? Wow - and I do mean WOW! What an idea! I have been trying to think how to get them to bring the carts back, or at least not steal them and take them "off campus" all my life, but no success. And during my career a few tricks have been tried, such as electromagnets at the exits of the parking lot or some other loss-prevention device. But a cart rental fee to make them bring it back! What a simple idea! Does it sell? Do they actually do it happily? I must go to Aldi and see about this.... Gary Eickmeier >> Aldi's does "loose" as a standard. Customers bag their own or take >> the cart to the car and toss the stuff into the car loose, (or even [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > idea! Does it sell? Do they actually do it happily? I must go to > Aldi and see about this.... I put a quarter into a slot in the cart handle. That releases the chain that binds the cart (nested) to the other carts. When I return the cart, I nest it neatly, put the chain into its respective slot, and that releases the quarter. There are still a few carts floating around the parking lot, but overall, there is less damage to the carts, and there needs to be no staff to round the carts up to the assembly area. And, of course, the carts are in a more or less sheltered area, out of the wind and rain. A bit more walking for the customers, of course. I suppose there is considerable upfront per-cart cost, but it seems a very sensible and economic solution. Of course, if people WANT the job of cart-wrassler, they are out of luck. > I put a quarter into a slot in the cart handle. That releases the chain > that binds the cart (nested) to the other carts. When I return the cart, [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > sensible and economic solution. Of course, if people WANT the job of > cart-wrassler, they are out of luck. A quarter? That's no motivation to return it. I thought it was going to be at least a dollar. On cruise ships nowadays, they charge your room 20 dollars per towel that you take out of your room, which you get back when you return it. Too many people stealing them. Great idea. Gary Eickmeier >> I put a quarter into a slot in the cart handle. That releases the >> chain that binds the cart (nested) to the other carts. When I [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > get back when you return it. Too many people stealing them. Great > idea. Well, Gary, I don't think you have much to worry about. You don't shop in places like Aldi's, now, do you? If you don't think walking 20 or 30 yards to retrieve a quarter is worth the effort, then just carry on with your cruising life. On the other hand, you _were_ talking about wear and tear on shopping carts, costs of herding them up, etc. As a manager, you would appreciate how stingy people like me can be--pinching pennies until they squeal. >>> I put a quarter into a slot in the cart handle. That releases >>> the chain that binds the cart (nested) to the other carts. When I [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > herding them up, etc. As a manager, you would appreciate how > stingy people like me can be--pinching pennies until they squeal. I think the point of the quarter is to make it worth someone's while to return the cart. Two cents wasn't enough to persuade a lot of adults to return their pop bottles when I was a kid, but I was glad to help out, since the deposit got me *six* pieces of penny candy. > A bit more walking for the customers, of course. I walk less at Aldi than at Kroger. But then I always return my carts at Kroger too, and Aldi has a smaller parking lot. SignatureJoy Beeson joy beeson at comcast dot net > Sidebar for the Brits - in the U.S., they provide bags for the > groceries at the checkout stand. Our biggest controversy is "paper > or plastic." Paper bags probably cost a little more each, but they > hold a hell of a lot more items. Plastic are cheap, but you can > only get about three items in each one, and they are not > biodegradable. A blight on the landfills. Thanks for that ... though I think We (Brits) had already worked most of it out. I wish we had the option of paper bags, but it seems to be plastic or nothing, here, with the more environmentally aware establishments wanting to charge a pound of flesh for each bag (5p ...about 8c US). There is also usually the option of a "bag for life" which costs a few times as much but will be replaced free of charge with a new bag (for death?) when it is too worn out to be useful ... if you haven't thrown it away by then. > Anyway, my big point was instead of asking "Paper or plastic?" they > sometimes ask "Will plastic be all right?" and I actually answer > them with a no, and they are stumped what to do. It sounds like the sort of question one would ask if the stock of paper bags had been exhausted, so stumpedness is hardly a surprising result. Cheers, Daniel. >> Sidebar for the Brits - in the U.S., they provide bags for the >> groceries at the checkout stand. Our biggest controversy is "paper [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Cheers, > Daniel. No, the paper hasn't run out. They are just wanting to use plastic all the time because it is easier. You see, since you can fit more items in a paper bag, you have to know which ones to select that go together and how to put them in there and how heavy to make it. Sometimes you have to decide whether to double bag it or not. It is a sort of an art, where you have to mentally plan your bags by looking ahead at the order as it comes down the belt. Most of them have no concept how to do that, so it ends up way too heavy, or else they double bag everything, even if it is nothing but cerial boxes and tissue paper. Wasteful. On the sidebar to the Brits, what I meant was, when I was stationed in England (Mildenhall, Suffolk) for three years, I was shocked that the grocery stores had NO bags for your groceries at the registers. You could bring your own or scrounge for a box from the back of the store, but no paper OR plastic was available to take your stuff home! Do they have them now? Gary Eickmeier > Do they have them now? Yes, all as far as I know. Only plastic, though ... and (as I said) there is a growing tendency to charge for them "to protect the environment". Well, the environment is very worthy, and all that, but I can't help feeling that it's "greener" to use a used plastic carrier bag to line my pedal bin than to carry my shopping home in a "bag for life" and *buy* plastic bin liners to throw out with the rubbish. Cheers, Daniel. >> Do they have them now? > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >my pedal bin than to carry my shopping home in a "bag for life" and >*buy* plastic bin liners to throw out with the rubbish. In this country paper shopping bags are never used (save the trees) and a few years ago a law was passed to make plastic shopping bags thicker and stronger and reusable and to compel people to pay extra for them (to save the environment). The immediate effect was to create unemployment in the plastic bag factories. But we do see far fewer disintegrating shopping bags lining barbed-wire fences. The effect on our family was that we save the plastic shopping bags, but never remember to take them when we go shopping, so we have accumulated several years' supply. ObAUE: In which dialects do they call them "sacks"? SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >>> Do they have them now? >> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > several > years' supply. Some stores provide bins for "savers" to return their plastic bags. I am told that there is not, now, a profitable recycling industry, so it may seem a wasted effort. But if it means their customers will bring their bags through the doors, then it is another sale made. A "loss leader", if you will. > ObAUE: In which dialects do they call them "sacks"? Damned if I know. > Some stores provide bins for "savers" to return their plastic bags. I am > told that there is not, now, a profitable recycling industry, so it may > seem a wasted effort. But if it means their customers will bring their > bags through the doors, then it is another sale made. A "loss leader", if > you will. I periodically bring back my collection of paper bags to recycle bins they have set up at the store.The bags are useful for other tasks as well, if you need to carry something from here to there. They fold back up nice, and stack in the garage. Gary Eickmeier > In this country paper shopping bags are never used (save the trees) > and a few years ago a law was passed to make plastic shopping bags > thicker and stronger and reusable and to compel people to pay extra > for them (to save the environment). A law? I don't think so (if you're talking about the UK). There are still a good many supermarkets that do give away flimsy one-use bags (though they do encourage one to reuse them and/or to recycle them after use, and in some cases offer LDPE recycling facilities "in- store"). It is true that some shops (M&S) now charge for flimsy bags, and offer a more expensive and clearly reusable alternative ("Bag for life") on ostensibly green grounds ... but in actual fact paper bags (from sustainable forests) would be much "greener" than any plastic bag (even flimsies made from recycled plastic). One thing that has happened in the last couple of years is that plastic bags are being made with additives that make them break down more quickly when exposed to light/air/bacteria/whatever, which means that the bags I try to reuse to store things just fall apart. Paper. That's the answer. Or a good cloth bag that can be used over and over again (as long as you remember to have it with you when you need it). Cheers, Daniel. |
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