what they believe are their rights

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sklin - 30 Mar 2006 14:45 GMT

In an article on riaa.com that deals with the power struggle between the big
record labels and enthusiasts of MP3, I read the following sentence and was
wondering if it would be more natural to use a singular verb.

"The forces on each side are determined to fight for what they believe are
their rights." Doesn't a relative what-clause normally take a singular
verb? Or the clause "what they believe are their rights" come from "What
are their rights?" Hence the plural verb "are." Somehow I'm baffled.

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matthewshepherd@hotmail.com - 30 Mar 2006 14:59 GMT

I'm not a grammar expert like a lot of folks on this forum, but off the
top of my head, I'd say that there are two SEPARATE sets of rights: the
RIAA feel they have certain rights, and the "enthusiasts" feel they
have another set of rights, some of which overlap and others that are
different. Two sets containing a series of rights each means it has to
be plural.

That's just a stab at it, though. Feel free to (politely) tell me I'm
wrong and why...

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Linz - 31 Mar 2006 13:27 GMT

> I'm not a grammar expert like a lot of folks on this forum, but off
> the top of my head, I'd say that there are two SEPARATE sets of
> rights: the RIAA feel they have certain rights, and the "enthusiasts"
> feel they have another set of rights, some of which overlap and
> others that are different. Two sets containing a series of rights
> each means it has to be plural.

Are you responding to anyone in particular? Please quote some of what you're
responding to.

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Donna Richoux - 30 Mar 2006 15:27 GMT

> In an article on riaa.com that deals with the power struggle between the big
> record labels and enthusiasts of MP3, I read the following sentence and was
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> their rights." Doesn't a relative what-clause normally take a singular
> verb?

No, "what they believe is their rights" sounds impossible.
"what they believe are their rights" sounds OK, but I prefer
"what they believe to be their rights."

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Best -- Donna Richoux

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Alec McKenzie - 30 Mar 2006 16:50 GMT

> > In an article on riaa.com that deals with the power struggle between the big
> > record labels and enthusiasts of MP3, I read the following sentence and was
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> "what they believe are their rights" sounds OK, but I prefer
> "what they believe to be their rights."

I agree entirely, but am wondering why the plural needs to be
used at all.

Is there anything wrong with "what they believe is their right"?
I think that is probably what was really meant.

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Alec McKenzie
usenet@<surname>.me.uk

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Robert Lieblich - 30 Mar 2006 16:44 GMT

> > > In an article on riaa.com that deals with the power struggle between the big
> > > record labels and enthusiasts of MP3, I read the following sentence and was
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Is there anything wrong with "what they believe is their right"?
> I think that is probably what was really meant.

Owners of copyright actually have multiple rights, all derivative of
their basic right to control reproductino and dissemination of their
copyrighted work. Other folks, who do not hold the copyright, also
have rights, such as the right of fair use. So I'd find the singular
in such a sentence somewhere between awkward and just plain wrong.
But that may be because of my training.

On the basic question, I'm with Donna, too.

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Bob Lieblich
Trained but not always obedient

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Mark Brader - 30 Mar 2006 23:16 GMT

Vin Sklin:

> > "The forces on each side are determined to fight for what they
> > believe are their rights." Doesn't a relative what-clause normally
> > take a singular verb?

No, not necessarily.

Donna Richoux:

> No, "what they believe is their rights" sounds impossible.

Agreed.

> "what they believe are their rights" sounds OK, but I prefer
> "what they believe to be their rights."

Both are correct, but I think there is a subtle difference in
connotation. By using the infinitive "to be", you describe *your*
position on the claim; by using "are", you describe the position of
the people in conflict.

There is no practical difference in the factual meaning (denotation),
since the sentence makes clear that the two sides have conflicting
beliefs and does not expess an opinion about them. But I think the
"are" version hints that maybe both sides have good cases and a
measure of simultaneous sympathy is appropriate for both of them.
The "to be" version lacks this connotation.

Signature

Mark Brader "MSB is an accepted explanation for men's
Toronto misbehaviors. ... Just blame it on MSB
msb@vex.net and everyone nods their heads." -- "TJ"

My text in this article is in the public domain.

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Discussion Groups / English Usage / March 2006

what they believe are their rights