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Discussion Groups / English Usage / August 2006It had to happen
What next? http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060731/ap_on_re_us/romney_racial_remark has, in part: BOSTON - Gov. Mitt Romney has apologized for referring to the troubled Big Dig construction project as a "tar baby" during a fundraiser with Iowa Republicans, saying he didn't know anyone would be offended by the term some consider a racial epithet.  SignatureSkitt At trakiem tikai ar labu. > What next? > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Republicans, saying he didn't know anyone would be offended by the term some > consider a racial epithet. So, saying it was a tar baby. -- john >What next? > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Republicans, saying he didn't know anyone would be offended by the term some >consider a racial epithet. I wonder if he didn't intend originaly to refer to a "tar pit" but instead comitted a Bush-speak "... Romney's spokesman, Eric Fehrnstrom, said the governor was describing "a sticky situation..." A tar pit is the usual metaphor for something that entangles people and gets them all snarled up, frexample in computer-geek-lingo there is the specific concept of a "Turing tarpit" which you can read about at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_tarpit if you feel so inclined. Jitze > What next? > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Republicans, saying he didn't know anyone would be offended by the term some > consider a racial epithet. Niggardly fellow, that Romney. Okay, "Tar Baby" originated with Joel Chandler Harris's "Uncle Remus," and I'm no scholar of such things, but I grew up thinking that what distinguished the tar baby was not its color but its viscosity. I suspect Romney may have suffered from similar perceptions, poor chap. Who gets to decide what's "consider[ed] a racial epithet"? SignatureBob Lieblich Not dissing Skitt, who I know is merely reporting >> What next? >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Who gets to decide what's "consider[ed] a racial epithet"? I think that Romney's perception is quite common, except among the ignorant. M-W Online: Main Entry: tar baby Function: noun Etymology: from the tar baby that trapped Brer Rabbit in an Uncle Remus story by Joel Chandler Harris : something from which it is nearly impossible to extricate oneself SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) http://www.geocities.com/opus731/ >>> What next? >>> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > Remus story by Joel Chandler Harris > : something from which it is nearly impossible to extricate oneself I suppose that if I didn't know the Harris story, and had to rely on the M-W definition, I might draw the conclusion that, as usual, the dictionary needs another dictionary to explain its terms. Without some definition of "tar baby" in terms of the Bre'r Rabbit adventure, I would probably think the term refers to a Black baby. I wonder what Harris' tar baby story originated from. I thought his stories were based on stories told by Black folk, slaves and freed slaves. But that doesn't help me to determine what the Blacks told about the tar baby, or that wascally wabbit. [...] > Who gets to decide what's "consider[ed] a racial epithet"? Anyone who can remotely claim legitimate offense was taken at the remark. You are, after all, talking about the USA. SignatureFranke: EFL teacher and medical editor Unmunged email: /at/hush.ai Native speaker of American English, posting from Taiwan It's all in the way you say it, innit? "Impatience is the mother of misery." >[...] >> Who gets to decide what's "consider[ed] a racial epithet"? > >Anyone who can remotely claim legitimate offense was taken at the remark. I'm not sure what you said there, Franke. I get the gist, but the words don't work. >You are, after all, talking about the USA. Is it different elsewhere? Perhaps not specifically the "tar baby" reference, but are there things said in the UK, or Germany, or France, or in any other country that should not give offense but are taken as offensive by those who choose to take things as offensive? Don't other countries share this type of problem? Perhaps Taiwan is different, but I do have the impression that one has to be as careful in, say, the UK as one does in the US. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL > >[...] > >> Who gets to decide what's "consider[ed] a racial epithet"? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I'm not sure what you said there, Franke. I get the gist, but the > words don't work. Put a "that" after "claim." It's okay to omit needless words, but sometimes some of the needful ones are thrown out along with the needless. > >You are, after all, talking about the USA. > > Is it different elsewhere? I think you have to reflect on Franke's use of "legitimate." What is "legitimate offense" when none is intended and there is in fact no good reason to believe that any was intended? If people want to take offense at something not intended as offensive, there's no stopping them. Yes, sensibilities do have to be allowed for, but there are limits. I think the "niggardly" situation well illustrates this. I also think that there is no one solution to whatever the problem is. And I suspect that Franke was hinting at some or all of this in his brief comment. For what it's worth, I have used "tar baby" at work as a way of describing a contractual situation from which there's no good way to extricate my clients. None of my cow-orkers -- black, white, or otherwise -- has ever taken offense. Of course, I am careful to explain that I am using the phrase to indicate a high degree of adhesiveness (not "viscosity"; and thanks to giuseppeglaudini for the correction). [ ... ] SignatureBob Lieblich Tar me not, nor feather [...] > Tar me not, nor feather We wouldn't even ride you out of town on a rail. SignatureMike. > [...] > > > Tar me not, nor feather > > We wouldn't even ride you out of town on a rail. I feel warm all over. (And no wonder; it's about 40 celsius out there.) Now all I have to do is find that town. SignatureBob Lieblich Thanks, Mike >> >[...] >> >> Who gets to decide what's "consider[ed] a racial epithet"? [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >And I suspect that Franke was hinting at some or all of this in his >brief comment. The question remains "Is it different elsewhere?" SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL > >[...] > >> Who gets to decide what's "consider[ed] a racial epithet"? [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Perhaps Taiwan is different, but I do have the impression that one has > to be as careful in, say, the UK as one does in the US. In my experience this problem exists in the UK but it is far worse in the US. As with many things, the US way is getting more common in the UK. > >[...] > >> Who gets to decide what's "consider[ed] a racial epithet"? [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Perhaps Taiwan is different, but I do have the impression that one has > to be as careful in, say, the UK as one does in the US. After reading the post above, I tried to find whether a similar phenomenon existed in French. In particular, I wanted to find out if a usage had been abandoned because of the influence of a non-related word. When discussing this with French people, I used the example of AYDS appetite suppressant candy, which after the coining of the medical term AIDS was renamed DietAyds in the US and--something I had not known previously--renamed Aydslim in Great Britain. Among the responses, the closest to the phenomenon in question was what happened when Honda introduced its airconditioning system AIRCON. As one Frenchman put it (my translation) "the ad campaign was very soon halted in France." The word "con" is, as an adjective, a vulgar way of calling someone stupid, or, as a noun, a vulgar way of calling him an idiot. I came to suspect one other possibility, that there may be words which are formed according to ordinary rules of word formation in France but are rejected at least in part because they would be mistaken for anglicisms. I was led to this possibility by comments by linguist Henriette Walter in *French Inside Out* (a translation by Peter Fawcett of Walker's *Le français dans tous les sens*). She was commenting about how French people tend to resist certain new words, even though they are correctly formed. It occurred to me that one of the things which might tip the balance against a neologism from the point of view of a French person might be that it sounded or looked English. I haven't found any examples of this, however. -- Raymond S. Wise Minneapolis, Minnesota USA E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com >> >[...] >> >> Who gets to decide what's "consider[ed] a racial epithet"? [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > adjective, a vulgar way of calling someone stupid, or, as a noun, > a vulgar way of calling him an idiot. I think that's quite a different phenomenon. Let's talk about Taiwan. Call anyone here a "baka yarou" (Japanese term well known around eastern and southern Asia) and they will be offended in the same way as any French person will be offended if you call them a "con". It's not a racial, religious, ethnic, or other kind of "racist"-in-the-YJ- sense epithet. It's equivalent to calling someone a "stupid f.cking a.shole" or a "dirty f.cking bastard". Tony was being intentionally dense. A couple of years back I posted something about a Japanese-American police officer who'd complained to the state of California about a vanity license plate he'd seen. It had been approved and screwed to the owners' car for ten years. It contained the initials of the husband and wife: RAP'N'JAP. The police officer was offended by the final three initials. The state finally revoked the plate. As far as I'm concerned, this kind of offense was on the same level as demanding that my old family doctor had to change his surname because it contained the word "sh.ts" when pronounced: his name was Dr. Lipschitz. Why wasn't the officer demanding that English change "Japan" and "Japanese" to something else? After all, the first three letters are "JAP". And why wasn't he demanding that Jewish American Princesses be referred to as "JAQDs" (Jewish American Queens' Daughters) or "JAKDs" (Jewish American Kings' Daughters) instead of JAPs? There are a number of other examples in English of otherwise common English words being used for "vulgarities" or misconstrued as ethnic slurs. But people who complain about this are just too thin-skinned and idiotic to pay attention to, IMHO. Unless one is employed, that is. SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan. Unmunged email: /at/hush.ai "Impatience is the mother of misery." > >> >[...] > >> >> Who gets to decide what's "consider[ed] a racial epithet"? [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > sense epithet. It's equivalent to calling someone a "stupid f.cking > a.shole" or a "dirty f.cking bastard". I would have trimmed your post more if I knew what to trim. As it is, I'm not sure what you mean by "that's quite a different phenomenon." It seems to me that objections to "AIRCON" are quite similar to objections to "niggardly" or objections to "RAP'N'JAP." The potentially objectionable term contains within it a segment which either sounds exactly like an objectionable term, or that is spelled like an objectionable term (the only difference being capitalization), this despite the fact that the segment is totally unrelated etymologically. > Tony was being intentionally dense. > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > "Japanese" to something else? After all, the first three letters are > "JAP". And why wasn't he demanding that Jewish American Princesses be This "Japan"/"Japanese" business appears to me to be a non sequitur. "Jap" is an offensive short form of "Japanese." The shortening is part of what makes the word offensive. The offensiveness of "RAP'N'JAP" is that the last three letters can easily be taken as representing the offensive term. When I first read it, I took it to be an attempt, within the limits of the license plate format, to represent "rappin' Jap," "Jap" being the offensive term in question. "JAP" with the meaning "Jewish American Princess" is much less likely to be mistaken for the term "Jap" in print because the capitalization would disambiguate it. Would you take "RAP'N'NIG" to be totally unoffensive, if the first and last elements were taken from the monograms of a different couple? Would you think it silly to be offended by a vanity plate which said "FUK," if that happened to be the monogram of the owner? Both of those are, of course, possible. > referred to as "JAQDs" (Jewish American Queens' Daughters) or > "JAKDs" (Jewish American Kings' Daughters) instead of JAPs? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > and idiotic to pay attention to, IMHO. Unless one is employed, that > is. -- Raymond S. Wise Minneapolis, Minnesota USA E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com Raymond S. Wise 寫道： [...] > > > Among the responses, the closest to the phenomenon in question was > > > what happened when Honda introduced its airconditioning system [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > seems to me that objections to "AIRCON" are quite similar to objections > to "niggardly" or objections to "RAP'N'JAP." There is one point of similarity, yes: the words caused some people to object. But objecting to "AIRCON" was not a response to a term considered a racial epithet in France. Anybody in France can call anybody else a "con" without being accused of being a racist. Call someone a "Jap" or a "nigger", and you're in a different ballpark because these are recognized racial epithets. If I shoot my wife and yell "I hate you, you bitch!" as I pull the trigger, I will be arrested ancd charged with homicide but not a hate crime,but if I go out and shoot someone because I don't like their religion or the color of their skin or their ethnicity, I will be charged with homicide and a "hate crime", even if I don't shout "I hate you, you [racial epithet] son of a bitch!" If I'm in Texas, maybe they'll execute me once for the first murder and maybe they'll execute me twice for the second. I don't know. > The potentially objectionable term contains within it a segment which > either sounds exactly like an objectionable term, or that is spelled > like an objectionable term (the only difference being capitalization), > this despite the fact that the segment is totally unrelated > etymologically. Yes, but that's only a second point of similarity. When matching fingerprints, one must find a minimum number of points of identity before claiming a match. [quote] http://www.sw.nec.co.jp/english/pid_e/mechanism.html The line that creates a fingerprint pattern is called the "ridge." This ridge includes a disconnection part and a part that splits into two branches (the bifurcation part). The disconnection portion is called the "end point," and the bifurcation portion is called the "bifurcation point." Each end point and bifurcation point is called a "Minutia." An ordinary fingerprint has about 50 minutiae in it. The "location" and "direction" are extracted from the minutia. [/quote] If one can match only 75% of the minutia, then the two prints are probably not a match, unless it's a partial print and only those 75% are available for matching. You've matched 67% of the minutia here, but you failed to match the other 33%: the offending term is considered a racial epithet, not merely an offensive word. [...] > This "Japan"/"Japanese" business appears to me to be a non sequitur. > "Jap" is an offensive short form of "Japanese." The shortening is part > of what makes the word offensive. So? How does that make it a non sequitur? Shorten "Japanese" to "Jap" and you get a racial epithet > The offensiveness of "RAP'N'JAP" is that the last three letters can > easily be taken as representing the offensive term. When I first read [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > less likely to be mistaken for the term "Jap" in print because the > capitalization would disambiguate it. Yeah, but the license plate was in print and the letters were all in caps, so how did the Japanese-American police officer know it didn't mean "Jewish American Princess"? > Would you take "RAP'N'NIG" to be totally unoffensive, if the first and > last elements were taken from the monograms of a different couple? I'm not offended by that any more than I am offend by "RAP'N'JAP". Why should I be? Am I supposed to be offended at what thin-skinned paranoids are offended by? Being called an "infidel" by Muslims doesn't offend me either. What do I care? > Would you think it silly to be offended by a vanity plate which said > "FUK," if that happened to be the monogram of the owner? In Rhode Island back in the 1960s, there was a car with the vanity plate "LXIX". That one eventually got sh.t-canned too. No, I wouldn't be offended by the yuk of "FUK", but "FUK" isn't an ethnic slur, now, is it. > Both of those are, of course, possible. We live in a world where almost anything is a possible offense. With so much to offend one, why should one bother to take offense? I used to fight (verbally) with my wife. Now I just listen quietly while she shadow boxes (verbally) with me. My blood pressure stays low. -- Franke: EFL teacher and medical editor Unmunged email: /at/hush.ai Native speaker of American English, posting from Taiwan It's all in the way you say it, innit? "Impatience is the mother of misery." Don't bother reading the previous post. I tried to edit it and pushed the wrong button, but it got sent and posted anyway. SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan. Unmunged email: /at/hush.ai "Impatience is the mother of misery." > Don't bother reading the previous post. I tried to edit it and pushed > the wrong button, but it got sent and posted anyway. Too late, of course, for the warning. But it doesn't matter; I enjoyed large parts of it anyway. > dontbother wrote: >> >> Don't bother reading the previous post. I tried to edit it and >> pushed the wrong button, but it got sent and posted anyway. > > Too late, of course, for the warning. I got the idea from all the software programs that tell me in the "readme.txt" file what to do before inserting the CD after I've finished installing the program. > But it doesn't matter; I enjoyed large parts of it anyway. I pleased to read that. Thank you, Martin. SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan. Unmunged email: /at/hush.ai "Impatience is the mother of misery." >>>Don't bother reading the previous post. I tried to edit it and >>>pushed the wrong button, but it got sent and posted anyway. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > "readme.txt" file what to do before inserting the CD after I've > finished installing the program. I've had a few of those. In some cases, it actually mattered to the point where I had to install again. SignatureRob Bannister > dontbother wrote: >>>dontbother wrote: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > I've had a few of those. In some cases, it actually mattered to the > point where I had to install again. I've never understood why the programmers never thought of having the install program open the readme file first. They have figured out that in most installs it's necessary to shut down all other Windows programs before installing, so they tell the user before continuing with the install. SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan. Unmunged email: /at/hush.ai "Impatience is the mother of misery." <snip> > I'm not offended by that any more than I am offend by "RAP'N'JAP". > Why [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > she > shadow boxes (verbally) with me. My blood pressure stays low. How offensive is this? http://static.flickr.com/92/218527693_790933cd71_o.jpg Or this? http://www.fototime.com/565731E4E184C2B/orig.jpg SignatureFrank ess Frank ess <frank@fshe2fs.com> had it: > How offensive is this? > http://static.flickr.com/92/218527693_790933cd71_o.jpg That's outrageous. Painting stripes on a TR7. The very idea! SignatureDavid ===== "Frank ess" <frank@fshe2fs.com> wrote [...] > How offensive is this? > http://static.flickr.com/92/218527693_790933cd71_o.jpg > > Or this? > http://www.fototime.com/565731E4E184C2B/orig.jpg Not at all. I used to own a TR7. I think the plate says it all. I wouldn't have chosen that Corvette's plate, but no big deal. What's offensive is that I don't own either one of those babies. SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan. Unmunged email: /at/hush.ai "Impatience is the mother of misery." > We live in a world where almost anything is a possible offense. With so > much to offend one, why should one bother to take offense? I used to > fight (verbally) with my wife. Now I just listen quietly while she > shadow boxes (verbally) with me. My blood pressure stays low. Some people almost make a profession out of looking for language to label offensive. SignatureRob Bannister > > We live in a world where almost anything is a possible offense. With so > > much to offend one, why should one bother to take offense? I used to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Some people almost make a profession out of looking for language to > label offensive. Almost?...r > dontbother wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Some people almost make a profession out of looking for language > to label offensive. Yes, they do, don't they. ;-) SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan. Unmunged email: /at/hush.ai "Impatience is the mother of misery." [...] > > > Among the responses, the closest to the phenomenon in question was > > > what happened when Honda introduced its airconditioning system [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > seems to me that objections to "AIRCON" are quite similar to objections > to "niggardly" or objections to "RAP'N'JAP." That's one point of similarity, yes: the words caused some people to object. But objecting to "AIRCON" was not a response to a term considered a racial epithet in France. Anybody in France can call anybody else a "con" without being accused of being a racist. Call someone a "Jap" or a "nigger", and you're in a different ballpark because these are recognized racial epithets. If I shoot my wife and yell "I hate you, you bitch!" as I pull the trigger, I will be arrested and charged with homicide but not a hate crime. If, however, I go out and shoot someone because I don't like their religion or the color of their skin or their ethnicity, I will be charged with homicide and a "hate crime", even if I don't shout "I hate you, you [racial epithet] son of a bitch!" If I'm in Texas, maybe they'll execute me once for the first murder and twice for the second. I don't know. > The potentially objectionable term contains within it a segment which > either sounds exactly like an objectionable term, or that is spelled > like an objectionable term (the only difference being capitalization), > this despite the fact that the segment is totally unrelated > etymologically. Yes, but that's only a second point of similarity. When matching fingerprints, one must find a minimum number of points of identity before claiming a match. [quote] http://www.sw.nec.co.jp/english/pid_e/mechanism.html The line that creates a fingerprint pattern is called the "ridge." This ridge includes a disconnection part and a part that splits into two branches (the bifurcation part). The disconnection portion is called the "end point," and the bifurcation portion is called the "bifurcation point." Each end point and bifurcation point is called a "Minutia." An ordinary fingerprint has about 50 minutiae in it. The "location" and "direction" are extracted from the minutia. [/quote] If one can match only 75% of the minutiae, then the two prints are probably not a match, unless it's a partial print and only those 75% are available for matching. You've matched 67% of the minutiae here, but you failed to match the other 33%: the offending term is considered a racial epithet, not merely an offensive word. [...] > This "Japan"/"Japanese" business appears to me to be a non sequitur. > "Jap" is an offensive short form of "Japanese." The shortening is part > of what makes the word offensive. So? How does that make it a non sequitur? Shorten "Japanese" to "Jap" and you get a racial epithet. > The offensiveness of "RAP'N'JAP" is that the last three letters can > easily be taken as representing the offensive term. When I first read [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > less likely to be mistaken for the term "Jap" in print because the > capitalization would disambiguate it. Yeah, but the license plate was in print and the letters were all in caps, so how did the Japanese-American police officer know it didn't mean "Jewish American Princess"? > Would you take "RAP'N'NIG" to be totally unoffensive, if the first and > last elements were taken from the monograms of a different couple? I'm not offended by that any more than I am offended by "RAP'N'JAP". Why should I be? Am I supposed to be offended by what offends thin-skinned paranoids? Being called an "infidel" by Muslims doesn't offend me either. What do I care? They're the crazy ones in my book. > Would you think it silly to be offended by a vanity plate which said > "FUK," if that happened to be the monogram of the owner? In Rhode Island back in the 1960s, there was a car with the vanity plate "LXIX". That one eventually got sh.t-canned too. No, I wouldn't be offended by the yuk of "FUK", but "FUK" isn't an ethnic slur, now, is it. > Both of those are, of course, possible. We live in a world where almost anything is a possible offense. With so much to offend one, why should one bother to take offense? I used to fight (verbally) with my wife. Now I just listen quietly while she shadow boxes (verbally) with me. My blood pressure stays low. -- Franke: EFL teacher and medical editor Unmunged email: /at/hush.ai Native speaker of American English, posting from Taiwan It's all in the way you say it, innit? "Impatience is the mother of misery." > [...] > > > > Among the responses, the closest to the phenomenon in question was [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > considered a racial epithet in France. Anybody in France can call > anybody else a "con" without being accused of being a racist. Call A friend of mine pointed out that "Il a l'air con" is a vulgar way of saying "He looks stupid." > someone a "Jap" or a "nigger", and you're in a different ballpark > because these are recognized racial epithets. If I shoot my wife and [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > but you failed to match the other 33%: the offending term is considered > a racial epithet, not merely an offensive word. That's not the way human psychology works. The degree to which a given act, particularly a novel one, is offensive is not something which can be predicted. Consider the recent reaction to Babytalk magazine's cover featuring a woman breastfeeding. The editors had no idea that so many of its readers would find the cover offensive. I expect any stand-up comedian could tell you stories about jokes they have told which turned out to be much more offensive than they intended. > [...] > > This "Japan"/"Japanese" business appears to me to be a non sequitur. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > So? How does that make it a non sequitur? Shorten "Japanese" to "Jap" > and you get a racial epithet. To think that, as a result of a term being shortened in order to make it offensive, the original term therefore must *necessarily* (or even would likely) suffer from some sort of stigma is illogical. The term "Gypsy" may have suffered from the word "gyp," but that was an exception, the result of "gyp" having gained the offensive sense of "to cheat." > > The offensiveness of "RAP'N'JAP" is that the last three letters can > > easily be taken as representing the offensive term. When I first read [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > fight (verbally) with my wife. Now I just listen quietly while she > shadow boxes (verbally) with me. My blood pressure stays low. People do take offense, however. That's one of life's realities to which we are forced to adapt. -- Raymond S. Wise Minneapolis, Minnesota USA E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com > dontbother wrote: [...] >> That's one point of similarity, yes: the words caused some people >> to object. But objecting to "AIRCON" was not a response to a term [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > A friend of mine pointed out that "Il a l'air con" is a vulgar way > of saying "He looks stupid." Not a racist remark, as I pointed out. [...] >> If one can match only 75% of the minutiae, then the two prints >> are probably not a match, unless it's a partial print and only [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > no idea that so many of its readers would find the cover > offensive. Still not racist. Can Babytalk's executive editors be faulted for not realizing what prudes American women are? > I expect any stand-up comedian could tell you stories about jokes > they have told which turned out to be much more offensive than > they intended. Not all offense is racism. >> [...] >> > This "Japan"/"Japanese" business appears to me to be a non [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > (or even would likely) suffer from some sort of stigma is > illogical. As you pointed out above, human psychology is not logical. As all of us are wont to point out here, language is not logical, espeically idiom. The point is not logic but the lack of logic in claiming that the longer term is not offensive even though it contains the shorter term that is. > The term "Gypsy" may have suffered from the word "gyp," > but that was an exception, the result of "gyp" having gained the > offensive sense of "to cheat." [...] > People do take offense, however. That's one of life's realities to > which we are forced to adapt. Yes, it is, but we cannot be forced to adapt to the whimsical taking of offense. My response to people who take offense at every possible hint of a maybe someone just said something I ought to be upset about is that they're paranoid and, therefore, dismissable. While I never call anyone who it ethnically Japanese a "Jap", I would certainly not shy away from using, in speech as well as in writing, "JAP" to mean Jewish American Princess, and I would not automatically infer that "RAP'N'JAP" was a racial slur. We don't have to make the world safe for idiots. SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan. Unmunged email: /at/hush.ai "Impatience is the mother of misery." > > dontbother wrote: > [...] [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Not a racist remark, as I pointed out. See below. > [...] > >> If one can match only 75% of the minutiae, then the two prints [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Still not racist. Can Babytalk's executive editors be faulted for not > realizing what prudes American women are? See below. > > I expect any stand-up comedian could tell you stories about jokes > > they have told which turned out to be much more offensive than > > they intended. > > Not all offense is racism. Obviously not. But, though this discussion started with a post about a once non-racist term that had been taken as a racist one, my point was that this is part of a larger phenomenon: language change as a result of words causing offense due to non-etymological causes. My point in mentioning the Babytalk business was that the prediction of what may cause offense is difficult, even when one is a part of the culture of the people who found something offensive, as the Babytalk editors presumably are. > >> [...] > >> > This "Japan"/"Japanese" business appears to me to be a non [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > the longer term is not offensive even though it contains the shorter > term that is. "The point is not logic but the lack of logic in claiming that the longer term is not offensive even though it contains the shorter term that is." In case you did not notice, you are making a logical argument there and it fails miserably. It makes no sense whatsover to believe that a term should be found offensive because a shorter, offensive term has been formed on it, unless, as I pointed out, that shorter term has introduced something to the matter, as "gyp" did. > > The term "Gypsy" may have suffered from the word "gyp," > > but that was an exception, the result of "gyp" having gained the [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > "RAP'N'JAP" was a racial slur. We don't have to make the world safe > for idiots. You are just defining the people who disagree with you--in this case including me--as idiots and sticking out your tongue at them. That's no argument. -- Raymond S. Wise Minneapolis, Minnesota USA E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com > dontbother wrote: >> > dontbother wrote: [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > who found something offensive, as the Babytalk editors presumably > are. You are disremembering the context, Ray. You claimed that "AIRCON" was similar to "Jap". I claimed that even though both were offensive, they were otherwise not similar, because one was a four-letter word in French but not a racial slur and the other was a racial slur. Now you're changing the terms of the discussion. >> >> [...] >> >> > This "Japan"/"Japanese" business appears to me to be a non [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > term that is." In case you did not notice, you are making a > logical argument there and it fails miserably. Your claim. Please prove it. But I don't expect that you can. > It makes no sense > whatsover to believe that a term should be found offensive because > a shorter, offensive term has been formed on it, unless, as I > pointed out, that shorter term has introduced something to the > matter, as "gyp" did. You're making a logical argument that fails miserably, I'm afraid. It shouldn't matter which came first when both the chicken and the egg coexist (Cf. "niggardly" and "nigger"). >> > The term "Gypsy" may have suffered from the word "gyp," >> > but that was an exception, the result of "gyp" having gained [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > case including me--as idiots and sticking out your tongue at them. > That's no argument. Well, they are idiots. They remind me of my 9-year-old, who thinks, every time he sees a Westerner here in Taiwan, that that Westerner is an American and that because I am an American, I know that Westerner. But he's still too young to understand that what he's saying is idiotic. It's people who have reached their 20s and 60s who do the same thing who are real idiots. Children also often make the assumption that because two people have the same first name, they are related. That's an idiotic assumption but forgivable in youg children, not in adults, though. Yes, if you and others take offense at everything others say just because you can and because there are plenty of idiots who will listen to your bitches and moans and consider them legitimate complaints, then you and others are idiots. Remember, though, that 'twas you, not I, who put yourself into the class of idiots. I'm not saying that people who disagree with me are idiots, although some of them inevitably will be, as will some of those who agree with me. My claim is that people who are ready to take offense at everything they possibly can and then bruit their emotional fragility about because of it are undoubtedly idiots. If that describes you, then I am very sorry for you. SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan. Unmunged email: /at/hush.ai "Impatience is the mother of misery." > > dontbother wrote: > >> > dontbother wrote: [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > in French but not a racial slur and the other was a racial slur. Now > you're changing the terms of the discussion. I changed it from the moment I entered the discussion, then, because from the point I entered the discussion, my interest was in seeing whether language change as a result of words causing offense due to non-etymological causes happens in other countries than the US. I considered that that would be one answer to Tony's question. > >> >> [...] > >> >> > This "Japan"/"Japanese" business appears to me to be a non [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Your claim. Please prove it. But I don't expect that you can. "I hate beets" is merely an expression of opinion. "Joe told me he hates beets" is merely reporting. But once logic is invoked, that changes the nature of the statement. "It is logical to hate beets" invokes logic. It is a logical argument with unexpressed assumptions. It fails if those unexpressed assumptions are false. (Note that in ordinary conversation, fawlty unexpressed assumptions are often the cause of an argument being logically flawed.) You said: "The point is not logic but the lack of logic in claiming that the longer term is not offensive even though it contains the shorter term that is." This invokes logic. It is false because the unstated assumptions are false. Language does not work in the way you assume it does, and the way you assume it works is one of your unstated assumptions. My argument is based upon the observation that shortened forms of words do not cause an increase in offensiveness in the longer word unless the shorter word has gained an additional meaning, as happened in the case of "Gypsy" and "gyp." Until you can give at least one example opposed to that, your argument must be dismissed as fatally flawed. > > It makes no sense > > whatsover to believe that a term should be found offensive because [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > shouldn't matter which came first when both the chicken and the egg > coexist (Cf. "niggardly" and "nigger"). At that point, however, I was discussing related words, because the discussion concerned the shortening of a word in order to deliberately make it offensive. "Niggardly" and "nigger," as you know, are unrelated, and so are irrelevant to this part of the discussion. (Obviously, they have their place elsewhere in the discussion--just not here.) > >> > The term "Gypsy" may have suffered from the word "gyp," > >> > but that was an exception, the result of "gyp" having gained [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > of it are undoubtedly idiots. If that describes you, then I am very > sorry for you. No, it was you who put me in the class of idiots by claiming that it was not reasonable to take "RAP'N'JAP" as being racially offensive. I'm not Japanese, so the offense is not a personal one, but I do find it to be offensive. You should know by now that I am not particularly susceptible to emotional fragility. -- Raymond S. Wise Minneapolis, Minnesota USA E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com >> > dontbother wrote: >> >> > dontbother wrote: [quoted text clipped - 178 lines] > but I do find it to be offensive. You should know by now that I am > not particularly susceptible to emotional fragility. Yes, you did. You weren't answering Tony's question. You were answering your own. SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan. Unmunged email: /at/hush.ai "Impatience is the mother of misery." > >> > dontbother wrote: > >> >> > dontbother wrote: Is there some reason you guys aren't trimming your quotes? This isn't email. It's extremely annoying to have to scroll all through the posts looking for the embedded commentary that surely must be there, yet isn't. This is the sort of thing that feeds the arguments of the top-posters. Brian (netiquette ain't just for newbies) SignatureIf televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up. -- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com) > > >> > dontbother wrote: > > >> >> > dontbother wrote: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Brian (netiquette ain't just for newbies) I usually do trim my posts, but in this thread I wanted to make sure that I wouldn't be accused of leaving something out as a means of advancing my argument. Franke's last post could certainly have used a considerable trimming, since the reply he wrote was an answer to something I wrote which was quoted further up in his message. -- Raymond S. Wise Minneapolis, Minnesota USA E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com > After reading the post above, I tried to find whether a similar > phenomenon existed in French. In particular, I wanted to find out if a [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > calling someone stupid, or, as a noun, a vulgar way of calling him an > idiot. Like you, I can't think of any better examples in French. (In my experience French people are rarely offended by any words that one might use.) However, I wonder whether we have any Thai speakers in aue. Many years ago (about 35) I was babysitting in a house that turned out to be filled with academic books on linguistics, and I got to reading an article about avoidance of indelicate words in Thailand, apparently something taken to extremes there. From what I remember (but bearing in mind the many years that have elapsed, so my recollection may be entirely garbled), Thai speakers who know English go to great lengths to avoid using Thai words that when translated into English sound vaguely like Thai words that could be offensive. Also, I wonder how many Pajeros Mitsubishi manage to sell in Spanish-speaking countries. They were probably aiming for something sounding like pájaro (bird), but pajero means masturbator. I see from their web page ("The Pajero* awakens a rush of emotions. The excitement of your very first driving experiences...") that they call it the Montero in Spain, but there is no word about what they call it in Latin America. athel The athel...@yahoo entity posted thusly: >Also, I wonder how many Pajeros Mitsubishi manage to sell in >Spanish-speaking countries. They were probably aiming for something [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Montero in Spain, but there is no word about what they call it in Latin >America. "Pet", a Canadian brand of "evaporated milk" is not sold in Quebec (or so I am told), as "pet" is a term meaning "fart" in French. > The athel...@yahoo entity posted thusly: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > "Pet", a Canadian brand of "evaporated milk" is not sold in Quebec (or > so I am told), as "pet" is a term meaning "fart" in French. I read Tyneside council workers have been told not to use "pet" as a form of address. It is more or less equivalent to the "love, duck(s), mate" found in other places. SignatureRob Bannister In alt.usage.english, Robert Bannister wrote: >I read Tyneside council workers have been told not to use "pet" as a form >of address. It is more or less equivalent to the "love, duck(s), mate" >found in other places. A letter to The Times: I encountered the phrase "pet" together with other unique words some 20 years ago, when I first came to the Northeast, and I have never felt patronised, threatened or insulted by such a term of endearment. I am often called "Princess Pet" in local shops, and feel only accepted and included as part of the community. Elena (HRH The Princess Helen of Romania), Co. Durham SignatureV >In alt.usage.english, Robert Bannister wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Elena (HRH The Princess Helen of Romania), > Co. Durham I kept reading that as something she did together with other people in the Northeast. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL In alt.usage.english, Tony Cooper wrote: >On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 12:46:54 +0100, Vinny Burgoo <hnNULh@yahoo.co.uk> >>A letter to The Times: >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >I kept reading that as something she did together with other people in >the Northeast. I don't know what you mean but I suspect it has something to do with commas. I took one out after "'pet'" because there wasn't one after "words". SignatureV >In alt.usage.english, Tony Cooper wrote: >>On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 12:46:54 +0100, Vinny Burgoo <hnNULh@yahoo.co.uk> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >commas. I took one out after "'pet'" because there wasn't one after >"words". I would write the sentence "I encountered the word "pet", together with other unique words of some 20 years ago, when I first came to the Northeast...." If you can delete the clause, it's probably a clause. But, what do I know? I've never been a Princess. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL In alt.usage.english, Tony Cooper wrote: >On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 17:42:17 +0100, Vinny Burgoo <hnNULh@yahoo.co.uk> >>In alt.usage.english, Tony Cooper wrote: >>>On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 12:46:54 +0100, Vinny Burgoo <hnNULh@yahoo.co.uk> >>>>A letter to The Times: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > >But, what do I know? I've never been a Princess. You have changed her meaning. SignatureV >In alt.usage.english, Tony Cooper wrote: >>On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 17:42:17 +0100, Vinny Burgoo <hnNULh@yahoo.co.uk> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > >You have changed her meaning. How so? Isn't the meaning that she encountered this word, and some other words that were new to her, when she went to the Northeast? Without the comma, the word "pet" was encountered in a clump of other words. With the comma, the word "pet" was encountered in the same place as her encounters with other words. If you took the comma out, and I returned it, who is changing her meaning? SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL In alt.usage.english, Tony Cooper wrote: >On Sun, 27 Aug 2006 12:32:07 +0100, Vinny Burgoo <hnNULh@yahoo.co.uk> >>In alt.usage.english, Tony Cooper wrote: >>>I would write the sentence "I encountered the word "pet", together >>>with other unique words of some 20 years ago, when I first came to the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >How so? Isn't the meaning that she encountered this word, and some >other words that were new to her, when she went to the Northeast? Yes. >Without the comma, the word "pet" was encountered in a clump of other >words. With the comma, the word "pet" was encountered in the same >place as her encounters with other words. Which comma where? >If you took the comma out, and I returned it, who is changing her >meaning? You are. I removed a comma from one end of sub-clause because the other end didn't have one. I probably shouldn't have done this, but it didn't change her meaning. You have used commas and an added word ("of") to create a different sub-clause with a different meaning. "... Unique words of some 20 years ago" means words that belonged to that era and usually implies that those words are no longer current. That is not what she meant. Here is the first paragraph as she wrote it (or as it was published, anyway). I have indicated the end of the sub-clause with a comma in square brackets. I encountered the phrase "pet", together with other unique words[,] some 20 years ago, when I first came to the Northeast, and I have never felt patronised, threatened or insulted by such a term of endearment. This isn't rocket science, Tony. SignatureV >>In alt.usage.english, Tony Cooper wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > If you took the comma out, and I returned it, who is changing her > meaning? The Princess is Romanian. It is well-known that the Romanian royal family have difficulty in pronouncing English commas. She probably used silent, Romanian ones. Nevertheless, I think the meaning is perfectly clear without any commas at all. Ever since I learnt German, I tend to use too many commas myself, but I prefer the cleaner look of comma-less sentences so long as there is no ambiguity. SignatureRob Bannister > In alt.usage.english, Tony Cooper wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > commas. I took one out after "'pet'" because there wasn't one after > "words". I'm still trying to imagine 'petting together' with words. Some of you comma-mad guys are just too picky. I'm surprised you didn't read something into "when I first came". SignatureRob Bannister Oleg Lego wrote, in part: > "Pet", a Canadian brand of "evaporated milk" [...] It's an American brand, too... see http://www.petevaporatedmilk.com/ but I'm not sure which came first in having the brand -- Canada or the US. I haven't used Pet Milk in ages, but my mother and grandmother always had some on hand. SignatureMaria Resident of southeast Michigan, near Detroit; native of east Tennessee. There's only one 'n' in my email address, and it's not in my first name. > Oleg Lego wrote, in part: >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > but I'm not sure which came first in having the brand -- Canada or the > US. The American one was registered in 1895 by a company out of Highland, Illinois, originally called the "Helvetia Milk Condensing Company." I don't see anything that indicates that there's a different company using the name in Canada. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Oh, forget it: I can't write about 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |this anymore until I find a much Palo Alto, CA 94304 |more sarcastic typeface. | Bill Bickel kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >> Oleg Lego wrote, in part: >>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >don't see anything that indicates that there's a different company >using the name in Canada. When I enquired here about this USian use of "out of", having heard it in a baseball commentary, I was told that it was something that only a sports commentator would say. SignatureDon Aitken Mail to the From: address is not read. To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com" >>> Oleg Lego wrote, in part: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > in a baseball commentary, I was told that it was something that only a > sports commentator would say. Well, that someone who said that was possibly of limited experience. "Out of" meaning "from" or "coming from" is not rare, though it may not be of frequent usage. As soon as I read it, my mind wondered if the author might be from animal breeding country or trade. Now I see it is in a post from Evan, who hails from the Chicago area. Well, when he was young(er). Is "hailed from" ever used? >>> Oleg Lego wrote, in part: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > in a baseball commentary, I was told that it was something that only a > sports commentator would say. This USan doesn't find anything unusual (and definitely not sports-commentator-only) about describing a company's origins or headquarters that way. I've been doing it and hearing it probably as long as I can remember. (Midwestern by birth; SoCal resident for about 25 years.) SignatureBlinky RLU 297263 Killing all posts from Google Groups The Usenet Improvement Project: http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html Don Aitken wrote, in <ro04f29geo02aapo9iof52f9jlv7a7h6no@4ax.com> on Sun, 27 Aug 2006 21:43:23 +0100: > >> Oleg Lego wrote, in part: > >>> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > in a baseball commentary, I was told that it was something that only a > sports commentator would say. Not unknown in BrE. Kipling's poem about John Bunyan, "The Holy War" starts: A tinker out of Bedford, A vagrant oft in quod, A private under Fairfax, A minister of God — … SignatureNick Spalding The Evan Kirshenbaum entity posted thusly: >> Oleg Lego wrote, in part: >>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >don't see anything that indicates that there's a different company >using the name in Canada. I only said "a Canadian brand" just in case the brand was unknown elsewhere. >>> Oleg Lego wrote, in part: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > I only said "a Canadian brand" just in case the brand was unknown > elsewhere. Ah. I misunderstood what you meant. (And ususally, I understand Canadians just fine. Strange. <smile>) SignatureMaria Resident of southeast Michigan, near Detroit **and Windsor, Ontario.** There's only one 'n' in my email address, and it's not in my first name. The Maria entity posted thusly: >>>> Oleg Lego wrote, in part: >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >> I only said "a Canadian brand" just in case the brand was unknown >> elsewhere. You've always understood me, at least. >Ah. I misunderstood what you meant. (And ususally, I understand >Canadians just fine. Strange. <smile>) >Resident of southeast Michigan, near Detroit **and Windsor, Ontario.** I went through there this month. We drove from Saskatchewan, through Manitoba, North Dakota, Minnesota, Illinois, and Michigan. On the way back, we took the Upper Peninsula (where it FINALLY dawned on me what "The Yoopers" is all about). We were attending a nephew's wedding in Essex and Windsor. Very nice drive, except for Chicago, which I will hate again if I ever have to drive in it once more. > Maria sigged: >> Resident of southeast Michigan, near Detroit **and Windsor, >> Ontario.** > > I went through there this month. We drove from Saskatchewan, through > Manitoba, North Dakota, Minnesota, Illinois, and Michigan. I envy you the trip. I'd love to do that. Maybe some day. > ....On the way > back, we took the Upper Peninsula (where it FINALLY dawned on me what > "The Yoopers" is all about). You know, then, that there are "Lopers," too? > .........We were attending a nephew's wedding in > Essex and Windsor. Very nice drive, except for Chicago, which I will > hate again if I ever have to drive in it once more. So next time, just go farther east before going south. (Well, if the weather permits.) SignatureMaria There's only one 'n' in my email address, and it's not in my first name. > Very nice drive, except for Chicago, which I will > hate again if I ever have to drive in it once more. You are correct, sir. SignatureSalvatore Volatile >> Very nice drive, except for Chicago, which I will >> hate again if I ever have to drive in it once more. > > You are correct, sir. I haven't driven in Chicago since 1956. It wasn't too bad then. SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) http://www.geocities.com/opus731/ > The athel...@yahoo entity posted thusly: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > "Pet", a Canadian brand of "evaporated milk" is not sold in Quebec (or > so I am told), as "pet" is a term meaning "fart" in French. Presumably Pierre Elliott Trudeau's parents weren't too worried about this when they had him christened? Actually, checking to see how Elliott was spelt I see that his full name was Joseph Philippe Pierre Yves Elliott Trudeau, so the question probably didn't arise then, though it might have arisen later when he decided to drop Joseph Philippe and Yves for everyday use. a. The athel...@yahoo entity posted thusly: >> The athel...@yahoo entity posted thusly: >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >though it might have arisen later when he decided to drop Joseph >Philippe and Yves for everyday use. He turned out to be an old fart anyway. > > What next? > > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Who gets to decide what's "consider[ed] a racial epithet"? I understand the origin (Brer Fox and Brer Rabbit - the Uncle Remus stories), but unlike "niggardly" the term does have a history of being used as a racial slur. >> Okay, "Tar Baby" originated with Joel Chandler Harris's "Uncle >> Remus," [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > used > as a racial slur. Examples, please? As with "niggardly", I suspect that some people took offense at the usage and a false image. Is there any discussion of some resentment by Blacks of the stories and fame that Harris got by exploiting a Black man, Uncle Remus, by the use of dialect. Is this what carried over? Or have you some experience in hearing the "tar baby" used to refer to Blacks. (I can't recall ever hearing Blacks called tar babies--but let's face it--I have seldom been in situations in which Black talked to Black. How about "Tar Heels"? > "Peacenik" <cnelsonpublic@hotmail.com> wrote in message > > I understand the origin (Brer Fox and Brer Rabbit - the Uncle Remus > > stories), but unlike "niggardly" the term does have a history of being [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > As with "niggardly", I suspect that some people took offense at the > usage and a false image. I wondered about that myself. I thought the phrase "you tar baby" might turn up the desired results. However, there were very few on the Web or at Google Group Advance Search. Of that second group, some are to a pseudonymous Tar Baby, and some appear to use the inveigling/entrapping meaning, but at least a couple make it sound like a racial insult. For example, this one, which is the oldest one there: Is this person real? ... or they throw mud at your house because you are lowering their daddy's property value, or they call you "Tar baby" and "White cockroach", This really sounds ... misc.jobs.misc - Nov 14 1990 I'd have to classify it, for now, as little-known. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux > > "Peacenik" <cnelsonpublic@hotmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > like a racial insult. For example, this one, which is the oldest one > there: I seem to recall that in the somewhat famous Saturday Night Live sketch with Chevy Chase and Richard Pryor that "tar baby" was one of the "word association" test terms. Brian SignatureIf televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up. -- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com) [ ... ] > I seem to recall that in the somewhat famous Saturday Night Live sketch No "somewhat" about it. It's legendary. > with Chevy Chase and Richard Pryor that "tar baby" was one of the "word > association" test terms. Yup. There's a transcript at <http://snltranscripts.jt.org/75/75ginterview.phtml>. As we lawyers like to say, that's not necessarily dispositive. SignatureBob Lieblich Context matters > [ ... ] > > > I seem to recall that in the somewhat famous Saturday Night Live > > sketch > > No "somewhat" about it. It's legendary. I hesitate to be absolute about these things, as that tends to attract comments like, "What, famous? Never heard of it!" On the whole, it was an example of pushing the boundaries of US television at time (1975). I'm not sure I'd heard the "N word" on TV before that. > > with Chevy Chase and Richard Pryor that "tar baby" was one of the > > "word association" test terms. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > As we lawyers like to say, that's not necessarily dispositive. They were working up to more and more offensive terms. It's at least the case that it was, in the context of the sketch, able to be interpreted as such a term. Whether it was actually used as such in everyday speech, I couldn't say. Brian SignatureIf televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up. -- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com) Default User filted: >> > I seem to recall that in the somewhat famous Saturday Night Live >> > sketch [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >interpreted as such a term. Whether it was actually used as such in >everyday speech, I couldn't say. And here's the sketch itself: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dk9ECvjma0E Reviewing it now, I'm reminded of a few things...first, "tar baby" is really the first term from either side that *could* be considered offensive...second, we all knew the first time we saw the sketch what word Chevy's killing blow would have to be, yet Pryor played his trump card ("honky") two rounds too early....r SignatureIt's the crack on the wall and the stain on the cup that gets to you in the very end...every cat has its fall when it runs out of luck, so you can do with a touch of zen...cause when you're screwed, you're screwed...and when it's blue, it's blue. >> "Peacenik" <cnelsonpublic@hotmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > I'd have to classify it, for now, as little-known. Yes. Thanks. In the context provided, the ignorance of undereducated teens (or younger) seems clear. But I guess we are aware of how deprived our non-literate children are. > > "Peacenik" <cnelsonpublic@hotmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > I'd have to classify it, for now, as little-known. The Wikipedia page on ethnic slurs, at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_slurs gives "tar baby" is as a UK, US, and New Zealand slur with the meaning "a black child," citing the entry "tar" in the OED2. If the OED2 does indeed say that, I trust that its editors based the entry on actual usage. -- Raymond S. Wise Minneapolis, Minnesota USA E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com > The Wikipedia page on ethnic slurs, at > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > indeed say that, I trust that its editors based the entry on actual > usage. Interesting. As always, I can only go on personal experience, but I have never heard "tar baby" used in any context other than Bre'r Rabbit. There are many insulting terms for Aborigines in Australia, the most common being Boong and Coon (almost never nigger), but the only term I have heard (and that only rarely) for black babies is the borrowed "pickaninny". (My proudest moment was when an Aboriginal friend called me "You black bastard".) SignatureRob Bannister [...] > The Wikipedia page on ethnic slurs, at > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > indeed say that, I trust that its editors based the entry on actual > usage. OED3 gives examples from 1948 (Sinclair Lewis), '59 (NZ,=Maori), and '78 (Updike). It refers the term to the US and NZ only, making no mention of UK, where I have never heard it in the racial sense. (OED3 here notes its treatment of _tar_ as coming from the '89 second ed.) But I doubt, sadly, that many younger Brits have ever heard of the Uncle Rermus story, so if I did hear the expr. from a younger speaker, I think I'd expect it to be racist. SignatureMike. >Is this what carried over? Or have you some experience in hearing the >"tar baby" used to refer to Blacks. (I can't recall ever hearing Blacks >called tar babies--but let's face it--I have seldom been in situations >in which Black talked to Black. > >How about "Tar Heels"? "A touch of the tar brush" helps to connect the ideas. SignatureRichard Bollard Canberra Australia To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT. >>Is this what carried over? Or have you some experience in hearing the >>"tar baby" used to refer to Blacks. (I can't recall ever hearing [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> > "A touch of the tar brush" helps to connect the ideas. For some reason, I think of your expression as indicating someone has a bit of Black blood. Anyway, I think that is a term I have heard used, in reference to cross-breeds. ( http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0602b&L=ads-l&P=7852 ) or http://tinyurl.com/pwstr This and the next three usages also have a racial link, although the first three Googles indicated "besmirching" for "tar brush". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tar_Heel I suspect the North Carolina nickname may have other origins beyond those listed in Wiki... But the state wouldn't have continued using the nickname if it were racially intended. > Is this what carried over? Or have you some experience in hearing > the "tar baby" used to refer to Blacks. (I can't recall ever > hearing Blacks called tar babies--but let's face it--I have seldom > been in situations in which Black talked to Black. There used to be a kind of candy so called -- little sugar-coated licorice babies. I loved them. I smuggled half a kilo of them into the U.S. while they were still available in Canada. Signature--- Joe Fineman joe_f@verizon.net ||: We have struggled to beggar our neighbor in one little :|| ||: lighted corner of a great dark store of wealth and grace. :|| >> Is this what carried over? Or have you some experience in hearing >> the "tar baby" used to refer to Blacks. (I can't recall ever [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >licorice babies. I loved them. I smuggled half a kilo of them into >the U.S. while they were still available in Canada. I see that Black Crows are now just "Crows". http://www.oldtimecandy.com/crows.htm My favorite movie snack back when. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL > > Okay, "Tar Baby" originated with Joel Chandler Harris's "Uncle Remus," > > I understand the origin (Brer Fox and Brer Rabbit - the Uncle Remus > stories), but unlike "niggardly" the term does have a history of being used > as a racial slur. If so, this may have been prompted by the Internet's capacity to blend cultural traditions. 1. The Uncle Remus stories were read in Britain approx. 1900-1950 but may by now have been wholly forgotten. 2. The British in India discriminated against "Anglo-Indians," i.e. people of mixed Indian and British parentage, which they lightly condemned as "a touch of the tar-brush." (Indian Army officer and author John Masters discovered late in life that he was 1/16 or 1/32 Indian in ancestry.) Americans did not know this phrase in 1900, perhaps not in 1950, but it appears now to be almost as current in the USA as in Britain. SignatureDon Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) >>>Okay, "Tar Baby" originated with Joel Chandler Harris's "Uncle Remus," >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > approx. 1900-1950 but may by now have been > wholly forgotten. I saw the film "Song(s?) of the South" long before I read the stories. > 2. The British in India discriminated against > "Anglo-Indians," i.e. people of mixed Indian and > British parentage, which they lightly condemned > as "a touch of the tar-brush." True, and this is also used in Australia, but I don't think most users would associate it and "tar baby" readily. SignatureRob Bannister > 1. The Uncle Remus stories were read in Britain > approx. 1900-1950 but may by now have been > wholly forgotten. Make that at least 1980. 'Song of the South' was shown fairly often (alternating with Pete's Dragon) at playschemes in my childhood (it hasn't had a theatrical release since 1986, though, but did have a UK VHS release 1983-2001). Most people I knew (including our household) had a copy of the Brer Rabbit stories, too. Jac <snip> > I grew up thinking that what > distinguished the tar baby was not its color but its viscosity. I think you grew up misled. It wasn't its viscosity; it was its adhesiveness. You hit it and you stick to it and can't get loose. Viscosity has to do with how freely a fluid will flow. Would you say it's the viscosity of flypaper that gives flies trouble? The governor's calling the big-dig thing a tar baby was probably quite appropriate. Politicians who become involved with it may wish they hadn't, and find it difficult to become uninvolved. Excerpt from http://www.uncp.edu/home/canada/work/allam/18661913/lit/harris.htm Brer Rabbit expects the tar baby to speak to him since he is "respectubble folk", however he does not realize this is a set-up by Brer Fox. Brer Rabbit later finds himself stuck to the tar baby with hands, feet, and head when he begins to hit the tar baby for not speaking. Brer Fox is "laying low" and watching with delight. Brer Fox then appears, speaks to Brer Rabbit and makes fun of him stating, "You look sorter stuck up dis mawnin', 'sezee en den he rolled on de groun', en laft en laft twel he couldn't laff no mo'." Harris' imagery makes this story easy for the reader/listener to picture this tale in his mind and chuckle to himself at the sight of Brer Rabbit stuck to the tar baby. > What next? > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > fundraiser with Iowa Republicans, saying he didn't know anyone would > be offended by the term some consider a racial epithet. Hang on, I'm getting a sever case of deja vu! > > What next? > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Hang on, I'm getting a sever case of deja vu! Yes, a thread that began May 17 of this year. White House press secretary Tony Snow had said "I don't want to hug the tar baby of trying to comment on the program..." I guess no one is going to succeed with the argument "I didn't know that it was also used as a racial insult, I was using it to mean the trap in the Brer Rabbit story." The origins of this one are not as respectably explained as those of "niggardly," and racial outrage spreads over all. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux >> What next? >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Hang on, I'm getting a sever case of deja vu! I'm glad you could cut it off before it did any damage. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL |
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