Discussion Groups / English Usage / October 2006

What?

R.H. Draney:

R J Valentine:

At this point I was wondering what a TV show had to do with the notional
power of signatures.

I've seen "10Q" for thank you.

ur LkM

Editor.  ED IT *OR*.  Maybe I should get one.

/dps

No.  Tenex (from Ten Extended) was an operating system developed by
BBN for the DEC PDP-10.

PDP-10 systems were common on the ARPAnet in the early days.  FTP
programs with a sense of history still have a TENEX command to set
Tenex-compatible mode.  The help for this command usually points
out that it is equivalent to the command TYPE L 8.

Sean Case

Solo Thesailor (ul udilshu seda voni mon) saleda sus em nivosha
<1159623345.652265.128380@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>:

"prai" = "blue", pronounced as English "pry"
"jei" = "eye(s)", pronounced as the name of English letter J.

Hallon, as the language is called, makes no singular/plural distinction. Its
grammar is pretty minimal. There is a website explaining some of it -
www.geocities.com/paulvstownsend/hallon - with sample texts.

It's reasonable enough, easy to learn if you know a bit of French, Italian
or other Latin-derived tongue, though its orthography is pretty crap with
circumflexes on some of the consonants. Unfortunately all that's now been
cast in stone and changes to the alphabet and grammar are no longer
permitted.

I discovered Esperanto back in my student days, long after I thought I had
left Hallon behind with childhood. But when I discovered the Net, and found
that there was a whole community "out there" experimenting in artificial
languages, I dusted Hallon off again and took the plunge and published it
to the Web.

There are many websites devoted to conlangers (as we call ourselves), the
best of which is probably http://www.langmaker.com - and we even have our
own newsgroup - alt.language.artificial. May I suggest that we move this
discussion there - sites dealing with real languages - sci.lang especially
- regard conlangs as upstarts, lesser life, trolls, etc. and are resented.
Hence my initial reluctance to include the word "artificial" explicitly.

I have contributed Hallon versions of a couple of well-known texts to sites
collecting them:

Tolkien's Ring-verse ("Three rings for the Elven-kings &c):
http://zbihniew.krasl.cz/lingua/rings/rings.html

The Christmas carol "Stille Nacht" ("Silent Night") in a singable
translation: http://silentnight.web.za/translate

The Charge of the Goddess (probably the longest continuous text out there):
http://www.usenetarchive.org/Dir1/File97.html

Only if you consider the place of the cherry relative to the
cherry-blossom as a world view.

I suppose the equivalent from an English point of view would be the rose.

Fran

...
} In English, the tree and blossom have names derived from that of the fruit.
}
} In Japanese, the tree and fruit have names derived from that of the blossom.
}
} Is this indicative of an important difference in worldview?...r

No, it's just the way the mop flops.

Maybe. Maybe not. Try this hypothesis for size:

In English, a tree tends to have a name derived from the aspect of
the tree that is of distinctive value to people (for example as food
for themselves or their animals). In some cases it is an edible
fruit, in others it a something else.

In general, the common names of trees have non-English origins.

Some etymologies from www.etymonline.com with ("fruit name"):

   pine ("pine cone")
   "coniferous tree," O.E. pintreow, the first element from
   L. pinus, from PIE *pei- "fat, sap, pitch" (cf. Skt. pituh
   "juice, sap, resin," pitudaruh "pine tree," Gk. pitys "pine
   tree," L. pinguis "fat").

   oak ("acorn")
   O.E. ac "oak tree," from P.Gmc. *aiks (cf. O.N. eik, O.Fris.,
   M.Du. ek, Du. eik, O.H.G. eih, Ger. Eiche), of uncertain origin
   with no certain cognates outside Gmc.

   ash ("key" a winged fruit)
   "tree," O.E. æsc "ash tree," also "spear made of ash wood," from
   P.Gmc. *askaz, askiz (cf. O.N. askr, O.S. ask, M.Du. esce, Ger.
   Esche), from PIE base *os- "ash tree" (cf. Arm. haci "ash tree,"
   Alb. ah "beech," Gk. oxya "beech," L. ornus "wild mountain ash,"
   Rus. jasen, Lith. uosis "ash"). Ash the preferred wood for
   spear-shafs, so O.E. æsc sometimes meant "spear" (cf. æsc-here
   "company armed with spears").

   beech ("beech mast")
   O.E. bece, from P.Gmc. *bokjon (cf. O.N. bok, Ger. buche, M.Du.
   boeke "beech"), from PIE base *bhagos (cf. Gk. phegos "oak," L.
   fagus "beech," Rus. buzina "elder"), perhaps with a ground sense
   of "edible" (and connected with the root of Gk. phagein "to
   eat;" see -phagous). Beech mast was an ancient food source for
   agricultural animals across a wide stretch of Europe.

   cherry ("cherry")
   1236, from Anglo-Fr. cherise (taken as a pl.), from O.N.Fr.
   cherise, from V.L. *ceresia, from late Gk. kerasian "cherry,"
   from Gk. kerasos "cherry tree," possibly from a language of Asia
   Minor. O.E. had ciris "cherry" from W.Gmc. form of the V.L.
   word, but it died out after the Norman invasion and was replaced
   by the French word.

   apple ("apple")
   O.E. æppel "apple," from P.Gmc. *ap(a)laz (cf. O.Fris., Du.
   appel, O.N. eple, O.H.G. apful, Ger. Apfel), from PIE *ab(e)l
   "apple" (cf. Gaul. avallo, O.Ir. ubull, Lith. obuolys, O.C.S.
   jabloko), but the exact relation and original sense of these is
   uncertain. Gk. melon and L. malum are probably from a pre-I.E.
   Mediterranean language. A generic term for all fruit, other than
   berries but including nuts, as late as 17c., hence its use for
   the unnamed "fruit of the forbidden tree" in Genesis. Cucumbers,
   in one O.E. work, are eorþæppla, lit. "earth-apples" (cf. Fr.
   pomme de terre "potato," lit. "earth-apple;" see also melon).
   Fr. pomme is from L. pomum "fruit."

   orange ("orange")
   c.1300, from O.Fr. orenge (12c.), from M.L. pomum de orenge,
   from It. arancia, originally narancia (Venetian naranza), alt.
   of Ar. naranj, from Pers. narang, from Skt. naranga-s "orange
   tree," of uncertain origin. Loss of initial n- probably due to
   confusion with definite article (e.g. une narange, una
   narancia), but perhaps infl. by Fr. or "gold." The tree's
   original range probably was northern India. The Persian orange,
   grown widely in southern Europe after its introduction in Italy
   11c., was bitter; sweet oranges were brought to Europe 15c. from
   India by Portuguese traders and quickly displaced the bitter
   variety, but only Mod.Gk. still seems to distinguish the bitter
   (nerantzi) from the sweet (portokali "Portuguese") orange.
   Portuguese, Spanish, Arab, and Dutch sailors planted citrus
   trees along trade routes to prevent scurvy. On his second voyage
   in 1493, Christopher Columbus brought the seeds of oranges,
   lemons and citrons to Haiti and the Caribbean. Introduced in
   Florida (along with lemons) in 1513 by Sp. explorer Juan Ponce
   de Leon. Introduced to Hawaii 1792. Not used as the name of a
   color until 1542.

So, did the Japanese value cherry blossom more than they valued the
edible fruit at the time the name of the tree originated?

While searching for the above etymologies, I saw something that I
had forgotten:

   book
   O.E. boc, traditionally from P.Gmc. *bokiz "beech" (cf. Ger.
   Buch "book" Buche "beech;" the notion being of beechwood tablets
   on which runes were inscribed), but may be from the tree itself
   (people still carve initials in them). The O.E. originally meant
   any written document. Latin and Sanskrit also have words for
   "writing" that are based on tree names ("birch" and "ash,"
   respectively).

mUs1Ka filted:

I'm sure my grandfather could quote you chapter and verse out of Zane Grey or
Louis Lamour, but I'm fairly certain "handle" in this sense was cowboy talk long
before there was CB radio....r